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In your heart or in the sky?

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  • Dan & Renee
    Hello folks. I have often wondered why, if being a christian means to accept jesus into your heart, are you taught to pray to him as if he is in the sky. I
    Message 1 of 6 , May 5, 2004
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      Hello folks.
      I have often wondered why, if being a christian means to accept
      jesus into your heart, are you taught to pray to him as if he is in
      the sky. I realize there is this whole thing about jesus ascending
      to heaven to be at the right hand of the father, but that still does
      not answer my question. If you ask jesus to come into your heart
      then you should look inside for all the answers ... right?

      Thank you for your time,
      Dan
    • Michael Heinich
      I am not sure this is the correct place for this question but... If you think that traditionally, Heaven was up and hell was down then you may get the idea of
      Message 2 of 6 , May 5, 2004
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        I am not sure this is the correct place for this
        question but...

        If you think that traditionally, Heaven was up and
        hell was down then you may get the idea of raising
        your prayers to heaven. Of course science has
        disproved that a long time ago. But tradition dies
        hard.

        Your right from my point of view. Looking inside is
        the place to start with your prayers and meditations.

        --- Dan & Renee <kiseek@...> wrote:
        > Hello folks.
        > I have often wondered why, if being a christian
        > means to accept
        > jesus into your heart, are you taught to pray to him
        > as if he is in
        > the sky. I realize there is this whole thing about
        > jesus ascending
        > to heaven to be at the right hand of the father, but
        > that still does
        > not answer my question. If you ask jesus to come
        > into your heart
        > then you should look inside for all the answers ...
        > right?
        >
        > Thank you for your time,
        > Dan
        >
        >
        >





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      • Mike Leavitt
        Hello All, Before you scan the gnosis.org site and freak out, yes there was a fire at out church in Hollywood, and as the pictures there so graphically show it
        Message 3 of 6 , May 7, 2004
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          Hello All,

          Before you scan the gnosis.org site and freak out, yes there was a
          fire at out church in Hollywood, and as the pictures there so
          graphically show it is an old building now beyond repair. We have
          temporary quarters in the Hollywood Theosophical Society -- Besant
          Lodge, a grand old building we have used before (I was ordained
          there), and it would be wonderful for a permanent place except
          parking is absolutely horrible, and it takes forever to get there on
          the bus.

          I have some reason to believe we will find more suitable quarters in
          the near future. We will be back up for Sunday mass, which is
          important because we have not missed on in the last 30 years, maybe
          40. All our church goods (ie. Chalices and Vestments) made it out in
          one piece, and only one set of curtains got water on them, so we are
          blessed that way.


          Regards
          --
          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
        • lady_caritas
          ... in ... Mike, I just checked out the link on The Gnostic Society page. Oh, my! I presume no one was hurt(?), and it s good that you managed to retrieve
          Message 4 of 6 , May 8, 2004
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
            > Hello All,
            >
            > Before you scan the gnosis.org site and freak out, yes there was a
            > fire at out church in Hollywood, and as the pictures there so
            > graphically show it is an old building now beyond repair. We have
            > temporary quarters in the Hollywood Theosophical Society -- Besant
            > Lodge, a grand old building we have used before (I was ordained
            > there), and it would be wonderful for a permanent place except
            > parking is absolutely horrible, and it takes forever to get there on
            > the bus.
            >
            > I have some reason to believe we will find more suitable quarters in
            > the near future. We will be back up for Sunday mass, which is
            > important because we have not missed on in the last 30 years, maybe
            > 40. All our church goods (ie. Chalices and Vestments) made it out
            in
            > one piece, and only one set of curtains got water on them, so we are
            > blessed that way.
            >
            >
            > Regards
            > --
            > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


            Mike, I just checked out the link on "The Gnostic Society" page. Oh,
            my!

            I presume no one was hurt(?), and it's good that you managed to
            retrieve your church goods. I hope you find permanent, suitable
            quarters in the near future.

            Cari
          • Mike Leavitt
            Hello lady_caritas ... Sorry about not changing the subject line last time, I m still a bit shook, I don t know all the details, but someone must have been
            Message 5 of 6 , May 8, 2004
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              Hello lady_caritas

              On 05/08/04, you wrote:

              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
              >> Hello All,
              >>
              >> Before you scan the gnosis.org site and freak out, yes there was a
              >> fire at out church in Hollywood, and as the pictures there so
              >> graphically show it is an old building now beyond repair. We have
              >> temporary quarters in the Hollywood Theosophical Society -- Besant
              >> Lodge, a grand old building we have used before (I was ordained
              >> there), and it would be wonderful for a permanent place except
              >> parking is absolutely horrible, and it takes forever to get there
              >> on the bus.
              >>
              >> I have some reason to believe we will find more suitable quarters
              >> in the near future. We will be back up for Sunday mass, which is
              >> important because we have not missed on in the last 30 years, maybe
              >> 40. All our church goods (ie. Chalices and Vestments) made it out
              > in
              >> one piece, and only one set of curtains got water on them, so we
              >> are blessed that way.
              >>
              >>
              >> Regards
              >> --
              >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
              >
              >
              > Mike, I just checked out the link on "The Gnostic Society" page. Oh,
              > my!
              >
              > I presume no one was hurt(?), and it's good that you managed to
              > retrieve your church goods. I hope you find permanent, suitable
              > quarters in the near future.
              >
              > Cari

              Sorry about not changing the subject line last time, I'm still a bit
              shook, I don't know all the details, but someone must have been there
              when the fire started or we could never have saved virtually
              everything. God takes care of fools and young children. :-) Anyway,
              we may just have new permanent quarters lined up, but until things
              get settled we will be at Besant Lodge, a grand old building,
              originally a theater. If parking weren't such a problem, we could
              stay there forever, but parking is a problem, and the bus does not
              run frequently, though it lets you out right in front of the door!
              We will live with it until something more permanent is firmed up.

              Regards
              --
              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
            • lady_caritas
              ... does ... Hi, Dan. My aim is not at all to trivialize recent conversation, but I have to admit that with recent discussion about up and down, ascension and
              Message 6 of 6 , May 9, 2004
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Dan & Renee" <kiseek@i...> wrote:
                > Hello folks.
                > I have often wondered why, if being a christian means to accept
                > jesus into your heart, are you taught to pray to him as if he is in
                > the sky. I realize there is this whole thing about jesus ascending
                > to heaven to be at the right hand of the father, but that still
                does
                > not answer my question. If you ask jesus to come into your heart
                > then you should look inside for all the answers ... right?
                >
                > Thank you for your time,
                > Dan



                Hi, Dan. My aim is not at all to trivialize recent conversation, but
                I have to admit that with recent discussion about up and down,
                ascension and descension, inside and outside and now the right hand,
                I'm reminded of the dance, the hokey-pokey.

                For anyone old enough to remember this dance, the verses instructed
                dancers to put various body parts (right hand, left hand, etc.) in
                and out and then shake 'em all about. And then, at the end:

                You put your whole self in,
                You put your whole self out;
                You put your whole self in,
                And you shake it all about.
                You do the Hokey-Pokey,
                And you turn yourself around.
                That's what it's all about.

                Depending how much energy one expended during the dance with all that
                turning about, although most likely not reaching a state of frenzy
                that a whirling Sufi might, one could lose a sense of balance with
                all that twirling. Are we in or out or roundabout?

                And, I'm also reminded of Mike's koan I quoted recently, "The way out
                is in. But, sometimes the way in is from the outside."

                Our temporal consciousness grasps for understanding via the
                referential opposites of our existence. The precaution as I see it
                and how you seem to have expressed it, Dan, is that one need not take
                mythology or allegory absolutely literally. That is when we see
                people believing in literal, existing skygods.

                _The Gospel of Philip_ states, "Just so, in the world human beings
                make gods and bow down to their products: it would be more fitting
                for the gods to worship human beings!"

                Jungians might call this "projecting." So, what are human beings
                projecting, and is that a bad thing? Stephan Hoeller discusses
                Jungian projection a bit in his web lectures on "The Alchemy of Love"
                ( http://gnosis.org/lectures.html ). The psyche involves more than
                our consciousness. There is the unconscious. Jung believed that all
                humans project onto the world and their human relationships. I don't
                want to turn this into a psychological discussion, but the point here
                is that humans are not always aware of the source of their
                expressions. And, the Gnostics, as evidenced in their writings,
                heartily promoted self-acquaintance. I believe this self-
                acquaintance can take many levels, hylic, psychic, and pneumatic.
                The process of Gnosis might involve a deliberate peeling away of
                layers of ignorance. And, one of the ways is becoming acquainted
                with ourselves and sources of our motivations.

                We have seen discussed already the technique of meditation. Hoeller,
                in his lecture, describes a difference between Eastern and Western
                methods. He believes that meditation has a place regarding
                introspection, but that expansion and growth of consciousness,
                energizing meaningful living, is accomplished by way of projection of
                our unconscious.

                Projections not understood can sometimes be dangerous, for instance
                when we project our shadow onto other humans who become "the enemy."
                Our world history is replete with the disastrous consequences of such
                unawareness. But, attempting to *understand* our projections helps
                toward unification with our own hidden nature. IOW, what do these
                skygods represent? Do we come to an impasse by not recognizing
                projections, by revering our psychic gods and hypostatizing our
                demons instead of learning about ourselves from them?

                The ancient Gnostics knew that "truth did not come to the world
                nakedly; rather, it came in prototypes and images: the world will not
                accept it in any other form." (GPh) Their mythologies are replete
                with elaborate imagery, and they take the time to differentiate
                between projections of psychic images and incorruptible pneumatic
                truth. I suppose that higher intuitive element that PMCV talks about
                comes into play in recognizing the difference.

                The way out is in. But, sometimes the way in is from the outside.


                Cari
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