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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Amazing Grace

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  • Lenny Ausante
    Interesting that me and a friend were just talking about this idea. I was saying that I believed in a song like Amazing Grace because it is not marketed or
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 20, 2003
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      Interesting that me and a friend were just talking about this idea.  I was saying that I believed in a song like "Amazing Grace" because it is not marketed or packaged but yet everyone knows the tune.  The fact that no one know the author demonstrates that the work became larger than the writter.  Kind of like removal of the ego literally.  The object takes a life of it's own and moves away from the creator.  I am the first to admit that I get influenced and sold by marketing but maybe songs like "Amazing Grace" Stand on there own and have recognition for a reason.  They are actually good. 
       
       
      Foucaults Pendulum

      woodlandmuse <woodlandmuse@...> wrote:
      You may also be interested in finding out about the life of the man
      who wrote "Amazing Grace"

      ~ Lily



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    • woodlandmuse
      The lyrics of the song are so moving and poignant, they re seemingly haunting and strike almost the center of a person s being (if this is a song that moves
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 21, 2003
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        The lyrics of the song are so moving and poignant, they're seemingly
        haunting and strike almost the center of a person's being (if this is
        a song that moves the person).

        It wasn't until a year or two ago that I happened to find out about
        the life of the man who wrote it, and how he was "compelled" to write
        such a piece. It was such an epiphany for the man, such a complete
        turn-around. It makes the song more meaningful on many levels.

        ... and when I hear it played by a lone piper in the mists or with a
        single light upon him ... I'm moved to tears.

        ~ Lily


        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Ausante
        <foucaultspendulum120@y...> wrote:
        > Interesting that me and a friend were just talking about this
        idea. I was saying that I believed in a song like "Amazing Grace"
        because it is not marketed or packaged but yet everyone knows the
        tune. The fact that no one know the author demonstrates that the
        work became larger than the writter. Kind of like removal of the ego
        literally. The object takes a life of it's own and moves away from
        the creator. I am the first to admit that I get influenced and sold
        by marketing but maybe songs like "Amazing Grace" Stand on there own
        and have recognition for a reason. They are actually good.
      • lady_caritas
        No doubt, John Newton had an epiphany and many people in fact interpret his Amazing Grace on different levels. As far as Newton himself though, what kind of
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 22, 2003
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          No doubt, John Newton had an epiphany and many people in fact
          interpret his "Amazing Grace" on different levels. As far as Newton
          himself though, what kind of conversion experience *does* he express
          in his hymns? If we look at other hymns, we see a God outside of
          himself and words replete with orthodox atonement theology.

          http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/newton.htm

          In fact, although scholarly names like Pagels and Ehrman have graced
          our discussions recently, there are many more scholars and students
          of historical Christianity who do not share the desire to be
          objective.

          An example might be this apologetic piece by a Dr. Michael Horton,
          who among other titles is listed as an associate professor of
          historical theology at a theological seminary. Dr. Horton clearly is
          offering an anti-gnostic stance rife with misinformation, such as
          associating Gnostics with pantheism.

          Horton, who lauds 17th and 18th hymn writers like John Newton, is
          bemoaning what he considers the trend of the last two centuries in
          which he feels 19th and 20th century hymns have been showing Gnostic
          influence with an emphasis of "sloppy theology." Indeed, he
          complains, "Individual experience is key. One finds very little
          objective, redemptive, doctrinal content in their works..."

          http://www.modernreformation.org/mr95/julaug/mr9504hymns.html

          I must say, whether or not his estimation holds water, I was almost
          cheering at the end when I read in the summary, "This is not written
          in order to provoke reaction, but to help us recognize the extent to
          which popular forms of worship have come to be dominated by Gnostic
          influences."

          But then I was sobered to further read, "These influences are not
          calculated by the song-writers, who are, no doubt, sincere and
          devoted believers. Nor is it to suggest that those who write (or
          sing) them are heretics, even though some of the content is at least
          heterodox, and in a few cases heretical. One must persist in heresy
          and refuse correction in order to be an enemy of the Faith, but
          ignorance is a serious problem that cripples the Church and easily
          accommodates departures from clear biblical teaching."

          I agree that "ignorance is a serious problem that cripples the
          Church," but obviously not for the reasons he outlines. I shudder to
          think that some religious seminaries are still perpetuating a notion
          that Gnostics are the "enemy."

          Then again, in a way, maybe that's true. :-)


          Cari


          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "woodlandmuse"
          <woodlandmuse@y...> wrote:
          > The lyrics of the song are so moving and poignant, they're
          seemingly
          > haunting and strike almost the center of a person's being (if this
          is
          > a song that moves the person).
          >
          > It wasn't until a year or two ago that I happened to find out about
          > the life of the man who wrote it, and how he was "compelled" to
          write
          > such a piece. It was such an epiphany for the man, such a complete
          > turn-around. It makes the song more meaningful on many levels.
          >
          > ... and when I hear it played by a lone piper in the mists or with
          a
          > single light upon him ... I'm moved to tears.
          >
          > ~ Lily
          >
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Ausante
          > <foucaultspendulum120@y...> wrote:
          > > Interesting that me and a friend were just talking about this
          > idea. I was saying that I believed in a song like "Amazing Grace"
          > because it is not marketed or packaged but yet everyone knows the
          > tune. The fact that no one know the author demonstrates that the
          > work became larger than the writter. Kind of like removal of the
          ego
          > literally. The object takes a life of it's own and moves away from
          > the creator. I am the first to admit that I get influenced and
          sold
          > by marketing but maybe songs like "Amazing Grace" Stand on there
          own
          > and have recognition for a reason. They are actually good.
        • Mike Leavitt
          Hello lady_caritas ... He had a conversion experience alright, he went from being a Scottish Presbyterian minister to being a Catholic Priest. I m not sure
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 22, 2003
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            Hello lady_caritas

            On 22-Dec-03, you wrote:

            > No doubt, John Newton had an epiphany and many people in fact
            > interpret his "Amazing Grace" on different levels. As far as Newton
            > himself though, what kind of conversion experience *does* he express
            > in his hymns? If we look at other hymns, we see a God outside of
            > himself and words replete with orthodox atonement theology.
            >
            > http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/newton.htm

            He had a conversion experience alright, he went from being a Scottish
            Presbyterian minister to being a Catholic Priest. I'm not sure that
            qualifies as a gnostic experience, except in so far as Rome, in its
            liturgy, at least, preserves a bit more of the original gnostic
            content of the faith, than Presbyterianism does (though of course,
            the Roman Catholics don't see it that way).

            Regards
            --
            Mike Leavitt ac998@...
          • lady_caritas
            ... Newton ... express ... Scottish ... We talkin about the same John Newton, Mike? ;-) I read from various sources that he was converted during a storm at
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 22, 2003
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
              > Hello lady_caritas
              >
              > On 22-Dec-03, you wrote:
              >
              > > No doubt, John Newton had an epiphany and many people in fact
              > > interpret his "Amazing Grace" on different levels. As far as
              Newton
              > > himself though, what kind of conversion experience *does* he
              express
              > > in his hymns? If we look at other hymns, we see a God outside of
              > > himself and words replete with orthodox atonement theology.
              > >
              > > http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/newton.htm
              >
              > He had a conversion experience alright, he went from being a
              Scottish
              > Presbyterian minister to being a Catholic Priest. I'm not sure that
              > qualifies as a gnostic experience, except in so far as Rome, in its
              > liturgy, at least, preserves a bit more of the original gnostic
              > content of the faith, than Presbyterianism does (though of course,
              > the Roman Catholics don't see it that way).
              >
              > Regards
              > --
              > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...



              We talkin' about the same John Newton, Mike? ;-)

              I read from various sources that he was converted during a storm at
              sea while he was engaged in the African slave trade. He later became
              a minister in the Church of England.

              http://www.flash.net/~gaylon/jnewton.htm


              Cari
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