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Re: Amazing Grace

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  • woodlandmuse
    You may also be interested in finding out about the life of the man who wrote Amazing Grace ~ Lily
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 20, 2003
      You may also be interested in finding out about the life of the man
      who wrote "Amazing Grace"

      ~ Lily
    • Lenny Ausante
      Interesting that me and a friend were just talking about this idea. I was saying that I believed in a song like Amazing Grace because it is not marketed or
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 20, 2003
        Interesting that me and a friend were just talking about this idea.  I was saying that I believed in a song like "Amazing Grace" because it is not marketed or packaged but yet everyone knows the tune.  The fact that no one know the author demonstrates that the work became larger than the writter.  Kind of like removal of the ego literally.  The object takes a life of it's own and moves away from the creator.  I am the first to admit that I get influenced and sold by marketing but maybe songs like "Amazing Grace" Stand on there own and have recognition for a reason.  They are actually good. 
         
         
        Foucaults Pendulum

        woodlandmuse <woodlandmuse@...> wrote:
        You may also be interested in finding out about the life of the man
        who wrote "Amazing Grace"

        ~ Lily



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      • woodlandmuse
        The lyrics of the song are so moving and poignant, they re seemingly haunting and strike almost the center of a person s being (if this is a song that moves
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 21, 2003
          The lyrics of the song are so moving and poignant, they're seemingly
          haunting and strike almost the center of a person's being (if this is
          a song that moves the person).

          It wasn't until a year or two ago that I happened to find out about
          the life of the man who wrote it, and how he was "compelled" to write
          such a piece. It was such an epiphany for the man, such a complete
          turn-around. It makes the song more meaningful on many levels.

          ... and when I hear it played by a lone piper in the mists or with a
          single light upon him ... I'm moved to tears.

          ~ Lily


          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Ausante
          <foucaultspendulum120@y...> wrote:
          > Interesting that me and a friend were just talking about this
          idea. I was saying that I believed in a song like "Amazing Grace"
          because it is not marketed or packaged but yet everyone knows the
          tune. The fact that no one know the author demonstrates that the
          work became larger than the writter. Kind of like removal of the ego
          literally. The object takes a life of it's own and moves away from
          the creator. I am the first to admit that I get influenced and sold
          by marketing but maybe songs like "Amazing Grace" Stand on there own
          and have recognition for a reason. They are actually good.
        • lady_caritas
          No doubt, John Newton had an epiphany and many people in fact interpret his Amazing Grace on different levels. As far as Newton himself though, what kind of
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 22, 2003
            No doubt, John Newton had an epiphany and many people in fact
            interpret his "Amazing Grace" on different levels. As far as Newton
            himself though, what kind of conversion experience *does* he express
            in his hymns? If we look at other hymns, we see a God outside of
            himself and words replete with orthodox atonement theology.

            http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/newton.htm

            In fact, although scholarly names like Pagels and Ehrman have graced
            our discussions recently, there are many more scholars and students
            of historical Christianity who do not share the desire to be
            objective.

            An example might be this apologetic piece by a Dr. Michael Horton,
            who among other titles is listed as an associate professor of
            historical theology at a theological seminary. Dr. Horton clearly is
            offering an anti-gnostic stance rife with misinformation, such as
            associating Gnostics with pantheism.

            Horton, who lauds 17th and 18th hymn writers like John Newton, is
            bemoaning what he considers the trend of the last two centuries in
            which he feels 19th and 20th century hymns have been showing Gnostic
            influence with an emphasis of "sloppy theology." Indeed, he
            complains, "Individual experience is key. One finds very little
            objective, redemptive, doctrinal content in their works..."

            http://www.modernreformation.org/mr95/julaug/mr9504hymns.html

            I must say, whether or not his estimation holds water, I was almost
            cheering at the end when I read in the summary, "This is not written
            in order to provoke reaction, but to help us recognize the extent to
            which popular forms of worship have come to be dominated by Gnostic
            influences."

            But then I was sobered to further read, "These influences are not
            calculated by the song-writers, who are, no doubt, sincere and
            devoted believers. Nor is it to suggest that those who write (or
            sing) them are heretics, even though some of the content is at least
            heterodox, and in a few cases heretical. One must persist in heresy
            and refuse correction in order to be an enemy of the Faith, but
            ignorance is a serious problem that cripples the Church and easily
            accommodates departures from clear biblical teaching."

            I agree that "ignorance is a serious problem that cripples the
            Church," but obviously not for the reasons he outlines. I shudder to
            think that some religious seminaries are still perpetuating a notion
            that Gnostics are the "enemy."

            Then again, in a way, maybe that's true. :-)


            Cari


            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "woodlandmuse"
            <woodlandmuse@y...> wrote:
            > The lyrics of the song are so moving and poignant, they're
            seemingly
            > haunting and strike almost the center of a person's being (if this
            is
            > a song that moves the person).
            >
            > It wasn't until a year or two ago that I happened to find out about
            > the life of the man who wrote it, and how he was "compelled" to
            write
            > such a piece. It was such an epiphany for the man, such a complete
            > turn-around. It makes the song more meaningful on many levels.
            >
            > ... and when I hear it played by a lone piper in the mists or with
            a
            > single light upon him ... I'm moved to tears.
            >
            > ~ Lily
            >
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Ausante
            > <foucaultspendulum120@y...> wrote:
            > > Interesting that me and a friend were just talking about this
            > idea. I was saying that I believed in a song like "Amazing Grace"
            > because it is not marketed or packaged but yet everyone knows the
            > tune. The fact that no one know the author demonstrates that the
            > work became larger than the writter. Kind of like removal of the
            ego
            > literally. The object takes a life of it's own and moves away from
            > the creator. I am the first to admit that I get influenced and
            sold
            > by marketing but maybe songs like "Amazing Grace" Stand on there
            own
            > and have recognition for a reason. They are actually good.
          • Mike Leavitt
            Hello lady_caritas ... He had a conversion experience alright, he went from being a Scottish Presbyterian minister to being a Catholic Priest. I m not sure
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 22, 2003
              Hello lady_caritas

              On 22-Dec-03, you wrote:

              > No doubt, John Newton had an epiphany and many people in fact
              > interpret his "Amazing Grace" on different levels. As far as Newton
              > himself though, what kind of conversion experience *does* he express
              > in his hymns? If we look at other hymns, we see a God outside of
              > himself and words replete with orthodox atonement theology.
              >
              > http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/newton.htm

              He had a conversion experience alright, he went from being a Scottish
              Presbyterian minister to being a Catholic Priest. I'm not sure that
              qualifies as a gnostic experience, except in so far as Rome, in its
              liturgy, at least, preserves a bit more of the original gnostic
              content of the faith, than Presbyterianism does (though of course,
              the Roman Catholics don't see it that way).

              Regards
              --
              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
            • lady_caritas
              ... Newton ... express ... Scottish ... We talkin about the same John Newton, Mike? ;-) I read from various sources that he was converted during a storm at
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 22, 2003
                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                > Hello lady_caritas
                >
                > On 22-Dec-03, you wrote:
                >
                > > No doubt, John Newton had an epiphany and many people in fact
                > > interpret his "Amazing Grace" on different levels. As far as
                Newton
                > > himself though, what kind of conversion experience *does* he
                express
                > > in his hymns? If we look at other hymns, we see a God outside of
                > > himself and words replete with orthodox atonement theology.
                > >
                > > http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/newton.htm
                >
                > He had a conversion experience alright, he went from being a
                Scottish
                > Presbyterian minister to being a Catholic Priest. I'm not sure that
                > qualifies as a gnostic experience, except in so far as Rome, in its
                > liturgy, at least, preserves a bit more of the original gnostic
                > content of the faith, than Presbyterianism does (though of course,
                > the Roman Catholics don't see it that way).
                >
                > Regards
                > --
                > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...



                We talkin' about the same John Newton, Mike? ;-)

                I read from various sources that he was converted during a storm at
                sea while he was engaged in the African slave trade. He later became
                a minister in the Church of England.

                http://www.flash.net/~gaylon/jnewton.htm


                Cari
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