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Job's "Christian Gnostic" quotes

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  • pneumen_borealis
    ... for ... ever. ... Thank you for pointing me towards Job. It is the first time I have read it. It truly rings with Gnostic longing for direct knowledge of
    Message 1 of 79 , Dec 1, 2003
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, gnosticaww <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Do you think Job in the Bible was a Gnostic? Now, I am not asking
      > some interpretation or tradition about Job but evryone's
      > opinion as one reads the book without any preconseption what so
      > Please, pay a close attention to 16:19-21 and 19:23-25.
      > thank you,
      > ~G

      Thank you for pointing me towards Job. It is the first time I have
      read it. It truly rings with Gnostic longing for direct knowledge of
      God. The imagery of Job's complaints is beautiful allegory for Gnostic
      alienation and the longing for a spiritual death that brings release
      from worldly sufferings. It also very clearly calls for a Christ as
      an intermediary figure between the Father and man, a redeemer who
      will comfort the fearful and bring direct knowledge of the Father to
      Job and end the fear once and for all.

      The following passages could easily have been written in the Gospel of
      John. Note also the translation footnotes at the end of the last
      passage. They really underscore the richness and multilayered meaning
      of the Hebrew. Note also the warning to those who might accuse the
      Gnostic Job of being evil, lest they too will one day experience the
      Father's tormenting love as Job does.

      BTW, G missed the first such reference in Job 9:32-35.

      Just for completeness, I'll quote all these passages here:

      Job 9:32-35

      32 "He is not a man like me that I might answer him,
      that we might confront each other in court.
      33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
      to lay his hand upon us both,
      34 someone to remove God's rod from me,
      so that his terror would frighten me no more.
      35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
      but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

      Job 16:19-21

      18 "O earth, do not cover my blood;
      may my cry never be laid to rest!
      19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
      my advocate is on high.
      20 My intercessor is my friend [1]
      as my eyes pour out tears to God;
      21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
      as a man pleads for his friend.

      Job 19:25-29

      25 I know that my Redeemer [3] lives,
      and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. [4]
      26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
      yet [5] in [6] my flesh I will see God;
      27 I myself will see him
      with my own eyes-I, and not another.
      How my heart yearns within me!

      28 "If you say, 'How we will hound him,
      since the root of the trouble lies in him, [7] '
      29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
      for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
      and then you will know that there is judgment. [8] "

      3.19:25 Or defender
      4.19:25 Or upon my grave
      5.19:26 Or And after I awake, / though this body has been destroyed, /
      6.19:26 Or / apart from
      7.19:28 Many Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Vulgate; most Hebrew
      manuscripts me
      8.19:29 Or / that you may come to know the Almighty

      I'll also add that the following passage is uncannily similar to
      Christ's passion in the Gospel of John:


      8 You have bound me-and it has become a witness;
      my gauntness rises up and testifies against me.
      9 God assails me and tears me in his anger
      and gnashes his teeth at me;
      my opponent fastens on me his piercing eyes.
      10 Men open their mouths to jeer at me;
      they strike my cheek in scorn
      and unite together against me.
      11 God has turned me over to evil men
      and thrown me into the clutches of the wicked.
      12 All was well with me, but he shattered me;
      he seized me by the neck and crushed me.
      He has made me his target;
      13 his archers surround me.
      Without pity, he pierces my kidneys
      and spills my gall on the ground.
      14 Again and again he bursts upon me;
      he rushes at me like a warrior.

      In John, of course, it is not gall, but water that spills forth,
      indicating the presence of the Holy Spirit within Christ. Perhaps it
      was left to the human Jesus to lead the way to a direct knowledge of
      the Father, to solve the mysteries, the beautiful yet bedeviling
      handiwork of the Demiurge:

      Job 38:8-11

      8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
      when it burst forth from the womb,
      9 when I made the clouds its garment
      and wrapped it in thick darkness,
      10 when I fixed limits for it
      and set its doors and bars in place,
      11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
      here is where your proud waves halt'?

      Here is a clue that this a little more than the wrathful Demiurge
      playing arbitrary games with Job. This Father does not punish Job for
      his questioning and seeking. He rewards him with direct knowledge of
      God, and points out his error by awing him with the mysteries of his
      creation. This passage intimates that this error was Job's pride.

      In the end, Job finds Gnosis, speaking directly to the face of God:

      Job 42:4-6

      4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
      I will question you,
      and you shall answer me.'
      5 My ears had heard of you
      but now my eyes have seen you.
      6 Therefore I despise myself
      and repent in dust and ashes."

      This is not grovelling borne of fear or piety. This is true humility
      in the face of direct knowledge of the Divine. It answers Job's
      longing to face his Day of Reckoning and be freed of fear. Job's sin
      and error lay not in the fact that he was questioning, but rather in
      the nature of the questions Job asked. As opposed to pondering the
      beautiful mysteries of God's creation as a way out of his earthly
      suffering, Job was lost in pride and self pity at how despite being a
      wonderful person and esteemed within his community he came on tough
      times. "How could this happen to me?!", he cried. God replied by
      coming up with questions that a Gnostic should ask. In the end, his
      Gnosis brought Job twice the riches of his previous pious life.

      I also take issue witht eh interpretation that the Demiurge is being
      intentionally cruel. The intent of God's tormenting father-like love
      is to bring Gnosis to Job, something that would not happen if Job
      continued to live a life of pure piety without questioning the deeper
      meaning of things. I find it interesting interpretation, though, that
      Satan here acts as the left hand of God. Without Satan, there would
      be no Gnosis for Job.

      I have a question:

      Do you think it was the intention of the author(s) of Job to have this
      vision be that of the Christ? Is there other hints of a Christ like
      archetype in Hebrew scripture? Clearly, this is what Job effectively
      asks for. I also believe that the author(s) of John's Gospel would
      think so.


      I got the quotes from the New Internation Version of the Bible at:


      It really is a very good site, with excellent translattion notes.
    • pneumen_borealis
      1. Attaining pneumatic understanding (Gnosis?) ... Life ... No. I ll elaborate further. I believe that eating from the Tree of Knowledge represents moving from
      Message 79 of 79 , Dec 14, 2003
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        1. Attaining pneumatic understanding (Gnosis?)

        > "I see Eternal Life as allegory for a final psychological state of
        > gnosis that is irreversable. If one accepts salvation as an
        > allegorical process of spiritual death and rebirth, then Eternal
        > implies an ultimate end to the process. I believe that the Tree of
        > Life that Yaweh denies Adam and Eve is allegory for the realization
        > that such a world-changing process exists. I believe that when the
        > New Testament refers to eternal life, if one accepts it as allegory,
        > points to the same human condition as Gnosis. I thin that is the
        > first level of Gnosis to which Job ascends."
        > If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that Job has
        > moved from the Hylic to the Psychic level of understanding.

        No. I'll elaborate further.

        I believe that eating from the Tree of Knowledge represents moving
        from the Hylic to the Psychic level, and that eating from the Tree of
        Life means moving from the Pychic to the Pneumatic level of
        understanding. Adam and Eve would be the defining Hebrew (and
        Gnostic!) myth where this initial leap were made.

        I think it is clear that Job is already at the Psychic level at the
        beginning of the Drama. He knows of God, knows of his laws, knows
        what is good and evil, believes in His laws, and is unimpeachable in
        his faith and moral conduct out of sincere, psychic conviction. A
        Hylic would act strictly out of fear and self-gain. Job's
        lamentations are based on a sincere and deeply rooted psychic
        interest in justice, which drives him to confront Yaweh. A Hylic
        wouldn't even think about the point of justice in the face of an
        omnipotent being. He'd just duck for cover and hope that groveling
        would curb further afflictions.

        What we are really debating is whether this is a psychic deepening of
        knowledge and faith (Lady Caritas' words) or an initial leap to a
        pneumatic level of understanding (my contention).

        I'll accept that I may have missed something in my definition
        of "pneumatic".

        In order to clarify this point in a concrete way, I'll ask you to
        answer the following questions:

        1.1. Precisely what points to this knowledge being psychic?

        1.2. In what Gnostic allegory or exposition is the Drama of ascending
        from the psychic to a pneumatic understanding of the Divine descibed
        or depicted?

        1.3. If there is no such drama or exposition, upon what do you base
        your conception of ascension to a pneumatic level?

        2. The related question of "Gnosis" vs. "gnosis"

        > years ago, in this club, we tried to outline a distinction
        > between "Gnosis" with a capitol "G", and "gnosis", little "g",

        I'll certainly attest to the potential for confusion here. I'm
        totally missing something in this line of conversation.

        2.1 Correct me if I'm wrong: gnosis = growing psychological
        undertanding through affective mystical experience. Right?

        That takes care of one definition. Could you elaborate on precisely
        how the second one differs?

        2.2 Gnosis: ?

        Perhaps "pneumatic understanding" is a better term? Of course this
        begs the question of what we mean by "pneumatic", and whether
        pneumatic can just mean spiritual. All this seems to indicate how
        important and fundamental this definition or description is. However,
        it does seem to clarify what we are debating in he Job question.

        3. Allegorical vs. Literal view of gnosis
        > I feel it is important to point out though, that it is debatable as
        > to whether the Gnostics saw this salvation in such allegorical
        > terms. Truely Gnostic sources are full of allegory, but they also
        > seem to intend some literal points concerning spiritual function.

        No, they undestood these things in experiential and pneumatic terms.
        The allegory merely points to the source of this understanding. They
        would have seen decribing these things in literal terms as an
        inherently limited psychic exercise. That's why they wouldn't even
        try to explain it to the Heresologists, who approached everything on
        a literal psychic level.

        4. Paul's conversion experience.

        > ... I am leary about equating Paul's experience on
        > the road to Damascus with Gnosis.

        4.1 I can probably guess why. That's proven to be dangerous here, so
        instead I'll ask you to elaborate on why.

        This is an important point and an opportunity to elaborate on the
        distinction what you see between pneumatic and psychic understanding
        in a more concrete way.

        5. The utility of faith in the historical Jesus

        > "Therefore, for some, the belief in an external Redeemer
        > sets up the groundwork for establishing a personal relationship more
        > suitable for establishing an identification, affectivelt reinforcing
        > Christ as a mythic intermediary figure with the Father."

        > It is interesting that the Talmud states explicitly that Job is an
        > allegory, and he never historically existed, while Orthodox
        > Christians often comment on the supposed historical Job. By the
        > token.... Christians also talk about the historical Jesus, and
        > equate him with Christ.

        I realize I've proposed a motive for "creating" the life of Jesus

        However, the writings of the apostles seems to give direct
        testimonials that Jesus was a real person. There are no countervailin

        I would say that a group that gets hung up on literal interpretations
        of allegory, dwelling on the fact that Jesus did or did not live in
        the literal sense, isn't really Gnostic . Any Gnostic would take
        such an arguement about a psychic rendering of gnosis as the domain
        of the Archons and realize that they are pointing towards a faith in
        dogma rather than primordial experience as the source of truth.

        7. Lady Caritas's post
        > "Well, I was given this link for a definition of Gnosis, and you
        > approved. If I was mistaken, it is certainly not my fault."
        > There are aspects on this page I find useful, and some that I find
        > create confusion. Lady Cari's explination to Terje puts it quite
        > nicely.

        I really couldn't follow this letter. It didn't make any sense to me.
        The article did. It was saying quite clearly that the big "G" Gnosis
        refers to a universal experience independent of the Gnostic belief
        system. I'm almost quoting he article here. It's pretty unambiguous,
        considering that the author says it twice.

        Platonic systems are one of many influences on the psychic part of
        their belief system. The pneumatic part resides in the individual's
        direct experience of the Divine.

        8. Modern Value judgements are inevitable

        > It is possible that the Gnostics would have seen an historical
        > treatment as superficial, but they would be wrong in that respect.

        This, of course, is not a statment of fact, but a value judgement
        based on very modern sensibilities similar to the ones you critique
        below. They are based on taking a modern historical view laden with
        ideological and cultural baggage to describe very different times. It
        is simply too limiting an approach, especially when studying a group
        that would have totally rejected the approach as "psychic".

        > In fact, this is one of the failings of what Dr Wind calls "that
        > ugly thing called Late Antiquities Syncratism (sic)". The fact is,
        some of
        > the vogue in the Late Antiquities was really more ecclectic than
        > syncratic (sic), and was not always so careful to understand the
        > they borrowed from (much like the New Age movement today).

        (LOL. Dr. Wind ... You're kidding, right? )

        This is not surprising considering that the praxis and beliefs of
        Gnostics was not based on faith or allegiance to any one of the many
        ideas of the divine that were floating around at the time, but rather
        a) personal experience with the divine; b) personal instrucion from
        some sort of mentor. They used whatever worked to animate and affirm
        their religious experience in the psychic realm.

        > We cannot
        > actually understand the Gnostics, without understanding the context
        > in which thier ideas grew. This goes back to the problem I see with
        > the "Archetype" system. Our modern perspective of some of the
        > allegories can give us a very different picture than the one
        > intended by the original authors, thier communication can be lost
        > beneath our attempt to "archetype" them.

        We cannot understand them unless we examine all aspects of their
        experience, of which their "ideas", by their own accounts, play a
        secondary role. In the case of the Orthodox, who DO base their praxis
        and beliefs primarily on a succession of written documents,
        testimonials, and intellectual belief systems, it makes sense to
        stress the philosophical and theological context. In the case of the
        Gnostics, the context that is central is that of human experience?
        What inspired them from wihin to reach out for Jewish, Greek, and
        even Indian ideas to express their faith and outlook?

        Modern ideological bias is always a danger. But this is true of any
        theoretical framework we would care to use. It is inevitable.
        All we can do is take care to choose the appropriate one.

        So when choosing one, it is best to choose one that refers to the
        same defining source of the movement's Truth to describe it. This is
        a phenomenological world, of which the spiritual world is a subset.
        The narrow confines of Platonic philosophy. again, are too limiting.

        > "To the Gnostics themselves, the Greek/Platonic context is at worst
        > superficial and at best only the tip of the iceberg. The key, for
        > them, lies in understanding and identifying with the myths expressed
        > in these archetypical dramas (and I believe that the creators of
        > these myths are very conscious of the universal appeal of these
        > drama). In other words, do the Platonists point to the same human
        > experience as the writers of Job?"
        > I am not aware of any human philosophy or religion that does not,
        > we are dealing with it as an archetype. Human suffering is explicit
        > in human existance.

        8.1 I'll be more specific. A central theme in Job is Redemption
        through knowledge of the Divine. This theme is also central to the
        Gnostics. How do the Platonists deal with redemption? How is it
        different than in Job and more similar to the Gnostics?

        > And besides simply the treatment of suffering, one of the criticims
        > of Plotinus is that it can be difficult to tell the difference
        > between him and the Gnostics he attacks... even sometimes for
        > Plotinus himself *lol*. Some time ago I did a post on
        > Neopythagorians and how difficult it can be to seperate some of
        > from the Gnostics, thier view of salvation, cosmology, etc. The
        > Neopythagorians are also Platonists.

        8.2 Do they point to a mystical experience of the Divine as a source
        of Truth, as all Gnostics do?

        > How do you see salvation/redemption achieved in Gnosticism/Job in
        > general?"
        > My point is not meant to deal with whether we can see psychological
        > and archetypal connections, we can.... with any religion. My point
        > is a bit more specific concerning whether reducing these motifs to
        > mere archetypes is a good thing to do.

        I appreciate the point. You have to be careful. I'm arguing that
        reducing it to Platonic philosophy (which I also recognize is
        possible) is even more dangerous, because it does not address the
        primordial experience at the center Gnosticism, and can lead to empty
        arguements about secondary issues. Looking for archeypes does. The
        probability of doing a bad analysis is there, but it will at least
        allow us to compare personal experience to other mystics, both modern
        and historical. I will allow us truly to separate the cultural
        baggage from the universal.

        > BTW, I am curious... you have not commented on the earlier
        > Mesopotamian texts like "Man and his God", "I Will Praise Thee,
        > of Wisdom", and the "Babylonian Theodicy" which some believe Job
        > taken.

        Later. I'm still dealing with the Gospel of Philip and some documents
        from Clement of Alexandia that refer to Job in a Gnostic context. He
        refers to Job as one of the elect!

        > BTW, I also wanted to point out that the date of Job is HOTLY
        > debated... and I thought I would post a webpage that gives an
        > outline of a number of theories concerning origin etc..
        > http://www.bible.org/docs/ot/books/job/job-intr.htm

        Thanks. I've found others. Curiously, all the dates predate Plato.

        > PMCV
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