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Re: Snakes & such

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  • Mike Leavitt
    Hello Unknown ... Well the myth seems to indirectly blame Sophia, the last aeon. She had a son without the cooperation of the father, who became the demiurge,
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 13, 2003
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      Hello Unknown

      On 13-Nov-03, you wrote:

      >
      > Hey Gerry & Mike,
      >
      > Thanks for the replys. I have another question: If this creation is
      > a mistake, whose mistake is it? Can the ineffiable make mistakes? I
      > don't see why not, I guess. Maybe we only perceive it as a mistake
      > in our limited scope? Just a thought.
      >
      > I don't know if the evil actions of man constitute a mistake on the
      > part of the divine, or does it? Argh! Braincramp! :)
      >
      > Peace,
      > T

      Well the myth seems to indirectly blame Sophia, the last aeon. She
      had a son without the cooperation of the father, who became the
      demiurge, who was imperfect and introduced error into creation. Of
      course ultimately the Unknown Father bears the responsibility, there
      is really no way around that. This is a weak point in Gnostic myth,
      AFAIK. Boehme has a dark part of God, which is more direct, I
      happen to think. The Gnostic myth really no more exonerates the
      Unknown Father than the Evron CEO can be exonerated for the actions
      of his underlings, but it is clear from the myth that he also created
      a path of return to try to fix things. He acknowledged the mistake.
      A bit better than the Evron CEO did. :-)

      Regards
      --
      Mike Leavitt ac998@...
    • Unknown
      Hey Gerry & Mike, Thanks for the replys. I have another question: If this creation is a mistake, whose mistake is it? Can the ineffiable make mistakes? I don t
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 13, 2003
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        Hey Gerry & Mike,

        Thanks for the replys. I have another question: If this creation is a mistake, whose mistake is it? Can the ineffiable make mistakes? I don't see why not, I guess. Maybe we only perceive it as a mistake in our limited scope? Just a thought.

        I don't know if the evil actions of man constitute a mistake on the part of the divine, or does it? Argh! Braincramp! :)

        Peace,
        T

         


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      • RevelatioN
        HI I am Apokalypse I wouuld like to reply to your thought I thought that and here is what I recieved This all is a perfect mistake Because of the Ineffiable
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 13, 2003
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          HI I am Apokalypse
          I wouuld like to reply to your thought
          I thought that and here is what I recieved

          This all is a perfect mistake
          Because of the Ineffiable one there is a Unineffiable Force that
          imminates
          this is why we praise
          because he reveals himself
          thru the unineffiable force
          It wasnt a mistake
          it was only a matter of time thru our perspective.
          Please put more confidince in our perception
          For this is the spirit
          The Eye, the light that Christ spoke of
          If our eye is dark {poverty}
          The whole body is in darkness

          This is why they are all jealous over our gifts.
          The Pleroma means fullness
          What can be seen as full, without the understanding of lack?
          The Pleroma will allways expand
          Once the consummation of the age is fullfilled
          And we are all one with the Fullness
          It will be complete
          Then The ineffiable one will be greater and increased
          and thru this completion will come the greater unineffiable force
          this is why we give praise
          if all was complete then there would be no need for praise because
          we are praise.But since praise is in us, then it is a seperate
          being, and one with us. And since even in the pleroma we are
          seperate but one, this shows us a beautiful law. With out Maya
          {illusion} there would be no need for this. And he gave us this
          illusion which is creation. Have you ever created something?, when
          it is complete how dose it make you feel, if you could create
          earthly species, would you not delight in watching the allways,
          things are the way thy are because this is what the ineffiable one
          loves to do, and this is how it reacts with the relm it is in.
          Cause and effect, peek-ba-boo. But above all of this he is Holy, and
          that is all that matters, because we are him when maya is stripped
          away,{I am in the Father, and The Father is in me.}
          And that would mean only the thought {person}, that could be
          cultivated for producing other thoughts {personas},
          Will be remembered, or added on, and not blotted out the book of
          life, as is said in revelations.
          Basically, He hides himself so we can be revealed.

          I wrote longer than I expected.



          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Unknown <themysteriousmrx@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hey Gerry & Mike,
          >
          > Thanks for the replys. I have another question: If this creation
          is a mistake, whose mistake is it? Can the ineffiable make mistakes?
          I don't see why not, I guess. Maybe we only perceive it as a mistake
          in our limited scope? Just a thought.
          >
          > I don't know if the evil actions of man constitute a mistake on
          the part of the divine, or does it? Argh! Braincramp! :)
          >
          > Peace,
          > T
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
        • lady_caritas
          Hello, Apokalypse. In light of recent dialogue, I m curious as to how the Ineffable you describe coincides with the Gnostic prime source. Perhaps you are
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 14, 2003
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            Hello, Apokalypse. In light of recent dialogue, I'm curious as to
            how the "Ineffable" you describe coincides with the Gnostic prime
            source. Perhaps you are speaking metaphorically, but nonetheless,
            the direct creator of this world can usually be seen depicted as the
            mythological demiurge rather than the Gnostics' "Source" or even the
            image of such. How can the "ineffable one" become "greater and
            increased"? And, why would this "ineffable one" want to purposely
            create things "the way thy are because this is what the ineffiable
            one loves to do"?


            Cari


            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "RevelatioN" <aiiziia@y...> wrote:
            > HI I am Apokalypse
            > I wouuld like to reply to your thought
            > I thought that and here is what I recieved
            >
            > This all is a perfect mistake
            > Because of the Ineffiable one there is a Unineffiable Force that
            > imminates
            > this is why we praise
            > because he reveals himself
            > thru the unineffiable force
            > It wasnt a mistake
            > it was only a matter of time thru our perspective.
            > Please put more confidince in our perception
            > For this is the spirit
            > The Eye, the light that Christ spoke of
            > If our eye is dark {poverty}
            > The whole body is in darkness
            >
            > This is why they are all jealous over our gifts.
            > The Pleroma means fullness
            > What can be seen as full, without the understanding of lack?
            > The Pleroma will allways expand
            > Once the consummation of the age is fullfilled
            > And we are all one with the Fullness
            > It will be complete
            > Then The ineffiable one will be greater and increased
            > and thru this completion will come the greater unineffiable force
            > this is why we give praise
            > if all was complete then there would be no need for praise because
            > we are praise.But since praise is in us, then it is a seperate
            > being, and one with us. And since even in the pleroma we are
            > seperate but one, this shows us a beautiful law. With out Maya
            > {illusion} there would be no need for this. And he gave us this
            > illusion which is creation. Have you ever created something?, when
            > it is complete how dose it make you feel, if you could create
            > earthly species, would you not delight in watching the allways,
            > things are the way thy are because this is what the ineffiable one
            > loves to do, and this is how it reacts with the relm it is in.
            > Cause and effect, peek-ba-boo. But above all of this he is Holy,
            and
            > that is all that matters, because we are him when maya is stripped
            > away,{I am in the Father, and The Father is in me.}
            > And that would mean only the thought {person}, that could be
            > cultivated for producing other thoughts {personas},
            > Will be remembered, or added on, and not blotted out the book of
            > life, as is said in revelations.
            > Basically, He hides himself so we can be revealed.
            >
            > I wrote longer than I expected.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Unknown
            <themysteriousmrx@y...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hey Gerry & Mike,
            > >
            > > Thanks for the replys. I have another question: If this creation
            > is a mistake, whose mistake is it? Can the ineffiable make
            mistakes?
            > I don't see why not, I guess. Maybe we only perceive it as a
            mistake
            > in our limited scope? Just a thought.
            > >
            > > I don't know if the evil actions of man constitute a mistake on
            > the part of the divine, or does it? Argh! Braincramp! :)
            > >
            > > Peace,
            > > T
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
          • RevelatioN
            Hi Cari Thru Maya he is increased in our perception of him, with out Maya there would be no reason to see or praise him. Because we all are him. Maya is for
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 14, 2003
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              Hi Cari
              Thru Maya he is increased in our perception of him,
              with out Maya there would be no reason to see or praise him.
              Because we all are him. Maya is for us.
              All of this is the way it is because, it is like this.
              You anwsered your own question, If he did'nt make this like it is,
              then it would not be this way.
              In your terms your percption of him is thru your eyes.
              hear
              First wipe the speck of wood out of your eyes, then you will see
              clearly to remove the plank from your brothers.

              Who said this is even a mistake to him
              he is unseen
              My ineffiable one is
              the uncreated one
              uncreation is the source, and my place of dwelling.

              All of this is a result of him creating, and how his creation reacts
              to the enviornment that it is in.

              Like when you create fire, it has consequence that effects its
              surrounding enviornment
              I just created fire
              but fire gives birth to heat in an enviornment such as this one.

              So what I am saying is that He loves to create, and enjoys seeing
              himself thru his creations
              but the reaction of his creation with the surrounding enviornment,
              gives birth to what we call mistake.

              This is how he looks at himself in the unseen light
              Creation, using maya he divides himself, and multiplies.

              Apok









              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:
              > Hello, Apokalypse. In light of recent dialogue, I'm curious as to
              > how the "Ineffable" you describe coincides with the Gnostic prime
              > source. Perhaps you are speaking metaphorically, but nonetheless,
              > the direct creator of this world can usually be seen depicted as
              the
              > mythological demiurge rather than the Gnostics' "Source" or even
              the
              > image of such. How can the "ineffable one" become "greater and
              > increased"? And, why would this "ineffable one" want to purposely
              > create things "the way thy are because this is what the ineffiable
              > one loves to do"?
              >
              >
              > Cari
              >
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "RevelatioN" <aiiziia@y...>
              wrote:
              > > HI I am Apokalypse
              > > I wouuld like to reply to your thought
              > > I thought that and here is what I recieved
              > >
              > > This all is a perfect mistake
              > > Because of the Ineffiable one there is a Unineffiable Force that
              > > imminates
              > > this is why we praise
              > > because he reveals himself
              > > thru the unineffiable force
              > > It wasnt a mistake
              > > it was only a matter of time thru our perspective.
              > > Please put more confidince in our perception
              > > For this is the spirit
              > > The Eye, the light that Christ spoke of
              > > If our eye is dark {poverty}
              > > The whole body is in darkness
              > >
              > > This is why they are all jealous over our gifts.
              > > The Pleroma means fullness
              > > What can be seen as full, without the understanding of lack?
              > > The Pleroma will allways expand
              > > Once the consummation of the age is fullfilled
              > > And we are all one with the Fullness
              > > It will be complete
              > > Then The ineffiable one will be greater and increased
              > > and thru this completion will come the greater unineffiable force
              > > this is why we give praise
              > > if all was complete then there would be no need for praise
              because
              > > we are praise.But since praise is in us, then it is a seperate
              > > being, and one with us. And since even in the pleroma we are
              > > seperate but one, this shows us a beautiful law. With out Maya
              > > {illusion} there would be no need for this. And he gave us this
              > > illusion which is creation. Have you ever created something?,
              when
              > > it is complete how dose it make you feel, if you could create
              > > earthly species, would you not delight in watching the allways,
              > > things are the way thy are because this is what the ineffiable
              one
              > > loves to do, and this is how it reacts with the relm it is in.
              > > Cause and effect, peek-ba-boo. But above all of this he is Holy,
              > and
              > > that is all that matters, because we are him when maya is
              stripped
              > > away,{I am in the Father, and The Father is in me.}
              > > And that would mean only the thought {person}, that could be
              > > cultivated for producing other thoughts {personas},
              > > Will be remembered, or added on, and not blotted out the book of
              > > life, as is said in revelations.
              > > Basically, He hides himself so we can be revealed.
              > >
              > > I wrote longer than I expected.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Unknown
              > <themysteriousmrx@y...>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hey Gerry & Mike,
              > > >
              > > > Thanks for the replys. I have another question: If this
              creation
              > > is a mistake, whose mistake is it? Can the ineffiable make
              > mistakes?
              > > I don't see why not, I guess. Maybe we only perceive it as a
              > mistake
              > > in our limited scope? Just a thought.
              > > >
              > > > I don't know if the evil actions of man constitute a mistake
              on
              > > the part of the divine, or does it? Argh! Braincramp! :)
              > > >
              > > > Peace,
              > > > T
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
            • Mike Leavitt
              Hello RevelatioN ... Somehow I think you seem not to get the difference between the Demiurge and the Unknown Father in Gnosticism and Maya and Brahman in
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 14, 2003
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                Hello RevelatioN

                On 14-Nov-03, you wrote:

                > Hi Cari
                > Thru Maya he is increased in our perception of him,
                > with out Maya there would be no reason to see or praise him.
                > Because we all are him. Maya is for us.
                > All of this is the way it is because, it is like this.
                > You anwsered your own question, If he did'nt make this like it is,
                > then it would not be this way.
                > In your terms your percption of him is thru your eyes.
                > hear
                > First wipe the speck of wood out of your eyes, then you will see
                > clearly to remove the plank from your brothers.
                >
                > Who said this is even a mistake to him
                > he is unseen
                > My ineffiable one is
                > the uncreated one
                > uncreation is the source, and my place of dwelling.
                >
                > All of this is a result of him creating, and how his creation reacts
                > to the enviornment that it is in.
                >
                > Like when you create fire, it has consequence that effects its
                > surrounding enviornment
                > I just created fire
                > but fire gives birth to heat in an enviornment such as this one.
                >
                > So what I am saying is that He loves to create, and enjoys seeing
                > himself thru his creations
                > but the reaction of his creation with the surrounding enviornment,
                > gives birth to what we call mistake.
                >
                > This is how he looks at himself in the unseen light
                > Creation, using maya he divides himself, and multiplies.
                >
                > Apok

                Somehow I think you seem not to get the difference between the
                Demiurge and the Unknown Father in Gnosticism and Maya and Brahman in
                Hinduism. Hinduism and Gnosticism have similarities, but not in
                this.

                Regards
                --
                Mike Leavitt ac998@...
              • lady_caritas
                ... reacts ... Apok, with all due respect, I must have quite an obdurate speck in my eye because I need clarification regarding: So what I am saying is that
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 14, 2003
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "RevelatioN" <aiiziia@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi Cari
                  > Thru Maya he is increased in our perception of him,
                  > with out Maya there would be no reason to see or praise him.
                  > Because we all are him. Maya is for us.
                  > All of this is the way it is because, it is like this.
                  > You anwsered your own question, If he did'nt make this like it is,
                  > then it would not be this way.
                  > In your terms your percption of him is thru your eyes.
                  > hear
                  > First wipe the speck of wood out of your eyes, then you will see
                  > clearly to remove the plank from your brothers.
                  >
                  > Who said this is even a mistake to him
                  > he is unseen
                  > My ineffiable one is
                  > the uncreated one
                  > uncreation is the source, and my place of dwelling.
                  >
                  > All of this is a result of him creating, and how his creation
                  reacts
                  > to the enviornment that it is in.
                  >
                  > Like when you create fire, it has consequence that effects its
                  > surrounding enviornment
                  > I just created fire
                  > but fire gives birth to heat in an enviornment such as this one.
                  >
                  > So what I am saying is that He loves to create, and enjoys seeing
                  > himself thru his creations
                  > but the reaction of his creation with the surrounding enviornment,
                  > gives birth to what we call mistake.
                  >
                  > This is how he looks at himself in the unseen light
                  > Creation, using maya he divides himself, and multiplies.
                  >
                  > Apok



                  Apok, with all due respect, I must have quite an obdurate speck in my
                  eye because I need clarification regarding:

                  "So what I am saying is that He loves to create, and enjoys seeing
                  himself thru his creations but the reaction of his creation with the
                  surrounding enviornment, gives birth to what we call mistake."

                  What is the "surrounding environment"? Is it something other
                  than "his creation"? If so, what is it?

                  Apok, since this is a group with an unambiguous focus as per the
                  description on our homepage,
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/ ,
                  please compare/contrast your ideas specifically to historical
                  Gnosticism. Thank you.


                  Cari
                • RevelatioN
                  Hi buddy ... is, ... reacts ... seeing ... enviornment, ... in
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 17, 2003
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                    Hi buddy


                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                    > Hello RevelatioN
                    >
                    > On 14-Nov-03, you wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hi Cari
                    > > Thru Maya he is increased in our perception of him,
                    > > with out Maya there would be no reason to see or praise him.
                    > > Because we all are him. Maya is for us.
                    > > All of this is the way it is because, it is like this.
                    > > You anwsered your own question, If he did'nt make this like it
                    is,
                    > > then it would not be this way.
                    > > In your terms your percption of him is thru your eyes.
                    > > hear
                    > > First wipe the speck of wood out of your eyes, then you will see
                    > > clearly to remove the plank from your brothers.
                    > >
                    > > Who said this is even a mistake to him
                    > > he is unseen
                    > > My ineffiable one is
                    > > the uncreated one
                    > > uncreation is the source, and my place of dwelling.
                    > >
                    > > All of this is a result of him creating, and how his creation
                    reacts
                    > > to the enviornment that it is in.
                    > >
                    > > Like when you create fire, it has consequence that effects its
                    > > surrounding enviornment
                    > > I just created fire
                    > > but fire gives birth to heat in an enviornment such as this one.
                    > >
                    > > So what I am saying is that He loves to create, and enjoys
                    seeing
                    > > himself thru his creations
                    > > but the reaction of his creation with the surrounding
                    enviornment,
                    > > gives birth to what we call mistake.
                    > >
                    > > This is how he looks at himself in the unseen light
                    > > Creation, using maya he divides himself, and multiplies.
                    > >
                    > > Apok
                    >
                    > Somehow I think you seem not to get the difference between the
                    > Demiurge and the Unknown Father in Gnosticism and Maya and Brahman
                    in
                    > Hinduism. Hinduism and Gnosticism have similarities, but not in
                    > this.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > --
                    > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
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