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Re: Jesus, Mary, & Da Vinci.....

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  • lady_caritas
    ... Vatican). ... thoughts ... and ... made ... Welcome, David. I didn t have an opportunity to view the special, but I did read an interesting article in The
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 5, 2003
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "David" <christianofzion@y...>
      wrote:
      > Hi all. I'm new here and excited about being a new member of this
      > group. My main interests lie in the Gnostic Gospels, many seem to
      > dismiss them at apparent fact (mainly Catholics, i.e., the
      Vatican).
      > I'm Catholic myself actually, and find them (the gospels) very
      > enlightening and educational. I currently have the Gosepl of Thomas
      > and looking to get the Gospel of Mary Magdalene this week, along
      > with the Da Vinci Code. My question is, what are everyone's
      thoughts
      > on the tv special that was on last night, entitled "Jesus, Mary, &
      > Da Vinci"? It was on Primetime, the ABC channel at 8pm. I didn't
      > know very much about the Da Vinci Code, but I knew it was a book
      and
      > recently published. I enjoyed watching the program, practically
      made
      > my night. To anyone who watched it, do you know if or where I can
      > get a copy of that special, whether it be on VHS at the ABC website
      > or somewhere else? I look forward to talking with you all over time.



      Welcome, David. I didn't have an opportunity to view the special,
      but I did read an interesting article in The New York Times about the
      show:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/03/arts/television/03HEFF.html?
      ex=1068920697&ei=1&en=aeafdb3bdeb0ec0c


      Although many neo-Gnostics might not place great emphasis on the
      historicity of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, there is undoubtedly still
      interest in the Mary Magdalene figure as seen in Gnostic scripture.
      Her role of disciple does vary from most traditional treatments. You
      might want to add _The Gospel of Philip_ to the readings you list
      since there is brief mention of Mary Magdalene.

      Perhaps others here who viewed the program can give you their
      reactions.


      Cari
    • David
      Cari, yes, I do plan on getting the Gospel of Philip. Just the ones I ve seen at Barnes & Noble and the Gnosis.org Archive Bookstore seem to be rather pricey,
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 5, 2003
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        Cari, yes, I do plan on getting the Gospel of Philip. Just the ones
        I've seen at Barnes & Noble and the Gnosis.org Archive Bookstore seem
        to be rather pricey, so I thought I'd get the Gospel of Mary
        Magdalene for the moment and the other gospel in time (or soon).
        Thank you for the link to suggested. I look forward to reading the
        article.
      • lady_caritas
        ... seem ... You re welcome,David. gnosis.org offers an online library, too: http://gnosis.org/library.html Gospel of Philip:
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 5, 2003
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          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "David" <christianofzion@y...>
          wrote:
          > Cari, yes, I do plan on getting the Gospel of Philip. Just the ones
          > I've seen at Barnes & Noble and the Gnosis.org Archive Bookstore
          seem
          > to be rather pricey, so I thought I'd get the Gospel of Mary
          > Magdalene for the moment and the other gospel in time (or soon).
          > Thank you for the link to suggested. I look forward to reading the
          > article.


          You're welcome,David.

          gnosis.org offers an online library, too:

          http://gnosis.org/library.html

          Gospel of Philip:

          http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html



          Cari
        • David
          Cari, thank you for those links, I ll definitely take a look at them. Is there a Gnostic chatroom somewhere in yahoo or do some of the members get together and
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 5, 2003
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            Cari, thank you for those links, I'll definitely take a look at them.
            Is there a Gnostic chatroom somewhere in yahoo or do some of the
            members get together and chat sometime? I know there are Christian
            rooms and then rooms yahoo members create. Was wondering if there is
            a room where Gnostics can gather or whatever.
          • lady_caritas
            ... them. ... is ... Well, there is a chat feature on our homepage, but I don t know if anyone has used it. :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 5, 2003
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "David" <christianofzion@y...>
              wrote:
              > Cari, thank you for those links, I'll definitely take a look at
              them.
              > Is there a Gnostic chatroom somewhere in yahoo or do some of the
              > members get together and chat sometime? I know there are Christian
              > rooms and then rooms yahoo members create. Was wondering if there
              is
              > a room where Gnostics can gather or whatever.



              Well, there is a chat feature on our homepage, but I don't know if
              anyone has used it. :-)

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/

              Perhaps other members know of other chatrooms.


              Cari
            • Ginosko
              MM David Something else about Da vincii you might find interesting is that there arer those who now claim him to be the creator of the Turin shroud thru use of
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 5, 2003
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                MM David

                Something else about Da'vincii you might find interesting is that there arer
                those who now claim him to be the creator of the Turin shroud thru use of
                his own "camera obscura". They have replicated the process sucessfully to my
                understanding. The very chemicals required were known to Arabic scientists
                going back to the 10th cent (silver nitrate being the chief one) to which he
                himself had access to their docs.

                MP
                Penn

                --
                "Toleration isn't much. But it is the first step towards curiosity,
                interest, study, understanding, appreciating and finally valuing diversity.
                If we can get everyone on the first step of tolerance, at least we won't be
                killing each other."

                Anon


                > Hi all. I'm new here and excited about being a new member of this
                > group. My main interests lie in the Gnostic Gospels, many seem to
                > dismiss them at apparent fact (mainly Catholics, i.e., the Vatican).
                > I'm Catholic myself actually, and find them (the gospels) very
                > enlightening and educational. I currently have the Gosepl of Thomas
                > and looking to get the Gospel of Mary Magdalene this week, along
                > with the Da Vinci Code. My question is, what are everyone's thoughts
                > on the tv special that was on last night, entitled "Jesus, Mary, &
                > Da Vinci"? It was on Primetime, the ABC channel at 8pm. I didn't
                > know very much about the Da Vinci Code, but I knew it was a book and
                > recently published. I enjoyed watching the program, practically made
                > my night. To anyone who watched it, do you know if or where I can
                > get a copy of that special, whether it be on VHS at the ABC website
                > or somewhere else? I look forward to talking with you all over time.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • incognito_lightbringer
                David, get a copy of The Nag Hammadi Library edited by James Robinson and The Gnostic Scripture by Bentley Layton. Both are in paperback and normally found in
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 6, 2003
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                  David, get a copy of The Nag Hammadi Library edited by James Robinson
                  and The Gnostic Scripture by Bentley Layton. Both are in paperback
                  and normally found in most bookstores. The NH Library was mentioned
                  in both Brown's book and in the ABC special.
                  http://www.gnosis.org had not only a good booklist but also has an
                  online library that contains the entire Nag Hammadi Library and many
                  other texts.

                  Now, as to Brown's book itself. I reviewed this on this board back in
                  July and I HATED it. It's fiction and largely based on Holy Blood
                  Holy Grail which itself is crackpot. This is not a good place to
                  start if you wish to learn about gnosticism and Mary Magdelene. If
                  you want to read it for entertainment, that's fine. Just be aware
                  that it's sensationalism with little to back it up. The Davinci Code
                  to religious scholarship is what tabloids are to journalism. You
                  know, those things they sell at the supermarket checkout that have
                  titles like "my mother married an alien".

                  The ABC special attempted to be objective. It still wasn't entirely
                  satisfactory. Here's an example. A lot of discussion went into
                  whether Mary Magdelene was a prostitute or not. It was interesting as
                  a historical analysis but no one seemed to get the point that her
                  portrayal in gnosticism and early Christianity as a "whore" was
                  metaphorical. Examples: Thunder Perfect Mind "I am the honored one
                  and the scorned one. I am the whore and the holy one." or Gospel of
                  Thomas "Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be
                  called the child of a whore"" or The Second Treatise of the Great
                  Seth "For those who were in the world had been prepared by the will
                  of our sister Sophia - she who is a whore - because of the innocence
                  which has not been uttered." In some cases the feminine and the whore
                  is also a metaphor for the soul: The Exegesis on the Soul "As long as
                  she was alone with the father, she was virgin and in form
                  androgynous. But when she fell down into a body and came to this
                  life, then she fell into the hands of many robbers. And the wanton
                  creatures passed her from one to another and [...defiled] her.Some
                  made use of her by force, while others did so by seducing her with a
                  gift. In short, they defiled her, and she [...lost] her virginity.
                  And in her body she prostituted herself and gave herself to one and
                  all, considering each one she was about to embrace to be her husband"

                  Mary Magdelene is a symbol for the fallen Sophia. She's the one the
                  descending Christ comes to save.
                  Instead, it was assumed the motivation was to belittle her because of
                  the misogyny of a patriarchal system. Which I'm not saying wasn't a
                  motivation, but there's another side to this. The ABC special
                  interviewed several religious experts including Pagels and no one
                  brought up the alternative explanation.




                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "David" <christianofzion@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hi all. I'm new here and excited about being a new member of this
                  > group. My main interests lie in the Gnostic Gospels, many seem to
                  > dismiss them at apparent fact (mainly Catholics, i.e., the
                  Vatican).
                  > I'm Catholic myself actually, and find them (the gospels) very
                  > enlightening and educational. I currently have the Gosepl of Thomas
                  > and looking to get the Gospel of Mary Magdalene this week, along
                  > with the Da Vinci Code. My question is, what are everyone's
                  thoughts
                  > on the tv special that was on last night, entitled "Jesus, Mary, &
                  > Da Vinci"? It was on Primetime, the ABC channel at 8pm. I didn't
                  > know very much about the Da Vinci Code, but I knew it was a book
                  and
                  > recently published. I enjoyed watching the program, practically
                  made
                  > my night. To anyone who watched it, do you know if or where I can
                  > get a copy of that special, whether it be on VHS at the ABC website
                  > or somewhere else? I look forward to talking with you all over time.
                • David
                  Incog, as much as I enjoyed the ABC special, it did seem to only cover the subject of Mary s being or not being a prostitute, so you re indeed right. That one
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 6, 2003
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                    Incog, as much as I enjoyed the ABC special, it did seem to only
                    cover the subject of Mary's being or not being a prostitute, so
                    you're indeed right. That one issue out-weighed the others of her
                    possibly being the one to the right of Christ in "The Last Supper";
                    being married to Christ, or not; as well as the Prieure de Sion and
                    the possible descendents of Christ and Mary Magdalene. I found it to
                    be very informing despite it only covering one particular issue.
                    After having thought about everything that was covered and reading a
                    few things on the Da Vinci Code and some of the historical subjects
                    included with the Da Vinci Code at ABC.com, I'd have to say that the
                    issue of Christ and Mary Magdalene is quite probable. I mean, none of
                    us were there in his time
                    and there are a few errors in the bible as it stands, i.e., the
                    conflicting genealogies of Christ in the NT and things coulda been
                    kept out of the Gospels, like Christ's personal life, because all we
                    read about is his ministry and having twelve disciple, I'd figure at
                    least one of them would know his personal life. Anyway, all I'm sayin
                    is that the fact he was or wasn't married coulda been included, so
                    we'd know more about him, but that kind of thing wasn't written. And
                    the person who is supposed to be John in "The Last Supper" does look
                    mighty feminine, and Jesus and Mary were rather close, as is
                    believed, so it coulda been her. I also have to say that the painting
                    is just a painting, not a snap-shot, the figures were painted in a
                    way that showed Da Vinci's skill in painting people. People talk like
                    it was a picture taken at the time of the Last Supper, like that's
                    what they looked like and basing opinions about who is who and
                    possibly why everyone close to Jesus wasn't there with him at the
                    Last Supper and included in the story of the Last Supper in the NT.
                    Not to discredit Da Vinci with his painting, just giving people
                    something to think about regarding the painting. Think that's all I
                    have to say at the moment. :-)

                    David
                  • Wayne
                    ... wrote: a historical analysis but no one seemed to get the point that her ... be ... innocence ... whore ... as ... a ... husband ... of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 6, 2003
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, incognito_lightbringer
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      a historical analysis but no one seemed to get the point that her
                      > portrayal in gnosticism and early Christianity as a "whore" was
                      > metaphorical. Examples: Thunder Perfect Mind "I am the honored one
                      > and the scorned one. I am the whore and the holy one." or Gospel of
                      > Thomas "Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will
                      be
                      > called the child of a whore"" or The Second Treatise of the Great
                      > Seth "For those who were in the world had been prepared by the will
                      > of our sister Sophia - she who is a whore - because of the
                      innocence
                      > which has not been uttered." In some cases the feminine and the
                      whore
                      > is also a metaphor for the soul: The Exegesis on the Soul "As long
                      as
                      > she was alone with the father, she was virgin and in form
                      > androgynous. But when she fell down into a body and came to this
                      > life, then she fell into the hands of many robbers. And the wanton
                      > creatures passed her from one to another and [...defiled] her.Some
                      > made use of her by force, while others did so by seducing her with
                      a
                      > gift. In short, they defiled her, and she [...lost] her virginity.
                      > And in her body she prostituted herself and gave herself to one and
                      > all, considering each one she was about to embrace to be her
                      husband"
                      >
                      > Mary Magdelene is a symbol for the fallen Sophia. She's the one the
                      > descending Christ comes to save.
                      > Instead, it was assumed the motivation was to belittle her because
                      of
                      > the misogyny of a patriarchal system. Which I'm not saying wasn't a
                      > motivation, but there's another side to this. The ABC special
                      > interviewed several religious experts including Pagels and no one
                      > brought up the alternative explanation.



                      The only True explanation.
                    • incognito_lightbringer
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 12, 2003
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                        <<I'd have to say that the
                        issue of Christ and Mary Magdalene is quite probable. >>

                        David, who cares?
                        The problem I have with this is that gnosticism is about freeing the
                        spirit from the material, and here are a bunch of bozos concerned in
                        what direction the sperm went.
                        For what reasons? Power? Prestige? Are they hoping they can control a
                        second coming?
                        It's ridiculous.

                        <<the conflicting genealogies of Christ in the NT>>
                        'Cause the people writing it got their facts mixed up.
                        Or else they wrote it to "prove" he was the foretold Jewish messiah.
                        People nowadays have problems tracing their family history even a few
                        generations back.

                        <<Anyway, all I'm sayin
                        is that the fact he was or wasn't married coulda been included, so
                        we'd know more about him,>>

                        I have this wacky theory that he didn't go through a wedding
                        ceremony, simply because Mary, as a symbol of the fallen Sophia, is
                        *already* his wife. But that's just me ;)

                        <<And
                        the person who is supposed to be John in "The Last Supper" does look
                        mighty feminine>>

                        Not only that, but the Mona Lisa is claimed to be, by some, Leonardo
                        himself in drag. As a symbol of his divine feminine half. They've
                        done computer models to try and back this theory up. Leonardo, on his
                        death bed, had two paintings by him. One of John the Baptist, hint
                        hint, and the other was the Mona Lisa. Of course, John the Baptist is
                        painted looking remarkably like a lecherous Dionysus, so who knows
                        how Leonardo interpreted gnosticism?
                        Leonardo also painted Jesus standing over a table with three pieces
                        of bread on it, no wine. Some claim it looks remarkably like a shell
                        game (you know, that street hustle dating back to ancient Egypt?). A
                        commentary on orthodox interpretation of that day perhaps?

                        <<I also have to say that the painting
                        is just a painting, not a snap-shot, >>

                        Well, I like my personal copy of the icon of the Black Madonna
                        currently hanging in Czestochowa Poland. If there's a second coming,
                        or a time machine, I'm hoping he'll turn out to be a black dude just
                        to shock all the bigots. :)


                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "David" <christianofzion@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Incog, as much as I enjoyed the ABC special, it did seem to only
                        > cover the subject of Mary's being or not being a prostitute, so
                        > you're indeed right. That one issue out-weighed the others of her
                        > possibly being the one to the right of Christ in "The Last Supper";
                        > being married to Christ, or not; as well as the Prieure de Sion and
                        > the possible descendents of Christ and Mary Magdalene. I found it
                        to
                        > be very informing despite it only covering one particular issue.
                        > After having thought about everything that was covered and reading
                        a
                        > few things on the Da Vinci Code and some of the historical subjects
                        > included with the Da Vinci Code at ABC.com, I'd have to say that
                        the
                        > issue of Christ and Mary Magdalene is quite probable. I mean, none
                        of
                        > us were there in his time
                        > and there are a few errors in the bible as it stands, i.e., the
                        > conflicting genealogies of Christ in the NT and things coulda been
                        > kept out of the Gospels, like Christ's personal life, because all
                        we
                        > read about is his ministry and having twelve disciple, I'd figure
                        at
                        > least one of them would know his personal life. Anyway, all I'm
                        sayin
                        > is that the fact he was or wasn't married coulda been included, so
                        > we'd know more about him, but that kind of thing wasn't written.
                        And
                        > the person who is supposed to be John in "The Last Supper" does
                        look
                        > mighty feminine, and Jesus and Mary were rather close, as is
                        > believed, so it coulda been her. I also have to say that the
                        painting
                        > is just a painting, not a snap-shot, the figures were painted in a
                        > way that showed Da Vinci's skill in painting people. People talk
                        like
                        > it was a picture taken at the time of the Last Supper, like that's
                        > what they looked like and basing opinions about who is who and
                        > possibly why everyone close to Jesus wasn't there with him at the
                        > Last Supper and included in the story of the Last Supper in the NT.
                        > Not to discredit Da Vinci with his painting, just giving people
                        > something to think about regarding the painting. Think that's all I
                        > have to say at the moment. :-)
                        >
                        > David
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