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RE: A Level of the Logos

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  • John Gilbert
    Gentlepeople, Penn posited: In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was with God, and the Torah was God. My response is that in the
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 8, 2003
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      Gentlepeople,

      Penn posited: "In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was
      with God, and the Torah was God."

      My response is that in the beginning (everything) was, and (everything) was
      with God, and (everything) was God. To this it can be added there never was
      and is not now anything that is not God. This, to me, is the fundamental
      Dogma of all Gnostics that God is everything and everything is God by
      whatever name you wish to call Her, Him or It. From that beginning rise all
      Gnostic Sects and indeed all spiritual paths.

      So, one could conclude that Penn is correct.

      LVX,
      John
      http://gnosticyoga.com
    • pmcvflag
      Hey John, and Penn. Well, to start with Penn s question. The word Teaching is probably not best transliterated with Torah , not only because the words don t
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 8, 2003
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        Hey John, and Penn.

        Well, to start with Penn's question. The word "Teaching" is probably
        not best transliterated with "Torah", not only because the words
        don't fit, but also because the author of John probably did not know
        Hebrew.

        However, in a less technical way I can certainly back that point.
        Logos, as we all know, is often translated as "Word". The problems
        with that translation are too numerous to deal with in a short post.
        The word "Logos" was one used in mystery traditions, and it has a
        wide range of concepts it is meant to impart. Study, teaching....
        logic... are definately part of the point, within a personification
        (the term Torah also does not impart that notion of personification
        intended by the text).

        To go on to John's point. What you describe, John, is pantheism.
        Pantheism is not something the historic Gnostics believed in, nor is
        it supported in Gnostic texts that I am aware of. There IS, though,
        a notion of the divine within mankind that could look on the surface
        to be pantheistic. It may seem like quibbling to you for me to point
        out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God IS man". Still,
        the difference is important to our understanding of the intent of
        Gnostic writings.

        PMCV


        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "John Gilbert" <john2002@a...>
        wrote:
        > Gentlepeople,
        >
        > Penn posited: "In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the
        Torah was
        > with God, and the Torah was God."
        >
        > My response is that in the beginning (everything) was, and
        (everything) was
        > with God, and (everything) was God. To this it can be added there
        never was
        > and is not now anything that is not God. This, to me, is the
        fundamental
        > Dogma of all Gnostics that God is everything and everything is God
        by
        > whatever name you wish to call Her, Him or It. From that
        beginning rise all
        > Gnostic Sects and indeed all spiritual paths.
        >
        > So, one could conclude that Penn is correct.
        >
        > LVX,
        > John
        > http://gnosticyoga.com
      • Magusadeptus
        Hello PMCV, ... post. ... (snip) Could you give some examples of the various meanings of Logos in Mystery Traditions and Gnosticism? Sincerely, Magusadeptus
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 8, 2003
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          Hello PMCV,


          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >(snip)
          >
          > However, in a less technical way I can certainly back that point.
          > Logos, as we all know, is often translated as "Word". The problems
          > with that translation are too numerous to deal with in a short
          post.
          > The word "Logos" was one used in mystery traditions, and it has a
          > wide range of concepts it is meant to impart. Study, teaching....
          > logic... are definately part of the point, within a personification
          > (the term Torah also does not impart that notion of personification
          > intended by the text).
          >
          (snip)

          Could you give some examples of the various meanings of Logos in
          Mystery Traditions and Gnosticism?

          Sincerely,
          Magusadeptus
        • Penndragon
          MM John Tis just one level of a number of levels of interpretation. Word is oft used to denote a teaching, a law, a reason, etc. One thing I ve noted long ago
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 8, 2003
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            MM John

            Tis just one level of a number of levels of interpretation. Word is oft used
            to denote a teaching, a law, a reason, etc. One thing I've noted long ago is
            that there are a good few levels to interpreting anything in the bible or
            any of the scriptures ;)

            MP
            Penn

            --
            The chrysalis of the go has to split before one can enter the sanctum
            sanctorum of the Divine Presence. In the words of Kathopnishad ... Yoga is
            both dissolution and emergence -- both death and rebirth. One has to die to
            live. It is a divine filiation and cannot be described in any human
            language, for it is reality of a different dimension. In the beautiful words
            of Dr. Anand K. Coomaraswamy, "The condition of deification is an
            eradication of all otherness." It is for this consummation that 112 dhâranâs
            have been described Vijñânabhairava.

            The Vijnana Bhairava


            > Gentlepeople,
            >
            > Penn posited: "In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah
            was
            > with God, and the Torah was God."
            >
            > My response is that in the beginning (everything) was, and (everything)
            was
            > with God, and (everything) was God. To this it can be added there never
            was
            > and is not now anything that is not God. This, to me, is the fundamental
            > Dogma of all Gnostics that God is everything and everything is God by
            > whatever name you wish to call Her, Him or It. From that beginning rise
            all
            > Gnostic Sects and indeed all spiritual paths.
            >
            > So, one could conclude that Penn is correct.
            >
            > LVX,
            > John
            > http://gnosticyoga.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Penndragon
            MM Guys I partially agree with PMCV. The word Torah also carried with it a number of meanings. What most people see re this is the word law and it s modern
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 8, 2003
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              MM Guys

              I partially agree with PMCV. The word Torah also carried with it a number of
              meanings. What most people see re this is the word law and it's modern (one
              of them) connotation, i.e. something that must be followed. However law is
              also used to denoted a teaching, i.e. Plank's law, Murphy's Law, etc. In the
              Qabblah, Torah carries with it the meaning of "the living aspect of God" as
              was the original Torah. I mean the old oral tradition before it was ever
              written down ;)

              MP
              Penn

              --
              The goal of mankind is knowledge. . . . Now this knowledge is inherent in
              man. No knowledge comes from outside: it is all inside. What we say a man
              "knows," should, in strict psychological language, be what he "discovers" or
              "unveils"; what man "learns" is really what he discovers by taking the cover
              off his own soul, which is a mine of infinite knowledge.

              Swami Vivekananda


              > Hello PMCV,
              >
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > >(snip)
              > >
              > > However, in a less technical way I can certainly back that point.
              > > Logos, as we all know, is often translated as "Word". The problems
              > > with that translation are too numerous to deal with in a short
              > post.
              > > The word "Logos" was one used in mystery traditions, and it has a
              > > wide range of concepts it is meant to impart. Study, teaching....
              > > logic... are definately part of the point, within a personification
              > > (the term Torah also does not impart that notion of personification
              > > intended by the text).
              > >
              > (snip)
              >
              > Could you give some examples of the various meanings of Logos in
              > Mystery Traditions and Gnosticism?
              >
              > Sincerely,
              > Magusadeptus
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Wayne
              ... It is not Quibbling, it is significantly, Muy, Importante. The Word is God, God is the Word. Two separate and distinctly Different Statements.
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 9, 2003
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >It may seem like quibbling to you for me to point
                > out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God IS man". Still,
                > the difference is important to our understanding of the intent of
                > Gnostic writings.
                >
                > PMCV

                It is not Quibbling, it is significantly, Muy, Importante.

                The Word is God, God is the Word.

                Two separate and distinctly Different Statements.
              • Penndragon
                MM Wayne Or another way of puting it. The Creator is also his Creation. MP Penn -- To such people, I say that God is everywhere, not in a particular form, but
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 9, 2003
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                  MM Wayne

                  Or another way of puting it. The Creator is also his Creation.

                  MP
                  Penn

                  --
                  To such people, I say that God is everywhere, not in a particular form, but
                  as an omnipresent awareness or power. God is consciousness itself. And by
                  concentrated, sincere prayer, you are tuning your mental radio to receive
                  that power. If I say there is nice music in this room, some of you may
                  disagree and say, "We don't hear any music. How can you say that there is
                  music in the room?" To you, I say get a radio, tune it properly, and you
                  will hear the music.

                  Swami Satchidananda


                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > >It may seem like quibbling to you for me to point
                  > > out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God IS man". Still,
                  > > the difference is important to our understanding of the intent of
                  > > Gnostic writings.
                  > >
                  > > PMCV
                  >
                  > It is not Quibbling, it is significantly, Muy, Importante.
                  >
                  > The Word is God, God is the Word.
                  >
                  > Two separate and distinctly Different Statements.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Penndragon
                  MM Wayne Thought ya might like the following quote MP Penn -- First there is Brahman, Lord of all, with whom is the Word, and the Word, verily, is Brahman. Rig
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 9, 2003
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                    MM Wayne

                    Thought ya might like the following quote

                    MP
                    Penn

                    --
                    First there is Brahman, Lord of all, with whom is the Word, and the Word,
                    verily, is Brahman.

                    Rig Veda



                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > >It may seem like quibbling to you for me to point
                    > > out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God IS man". Still,
                    > > the difference is important to our understanding of the intent of
                    > > Gnostic writings.
                    > >
                    > > PMCV
                    >
                    > It is not Quibbling, it is significantly, Muy, Importante.
                    >
                    > The Word is God, God is the Word.
                    >
                    > Two separate and distinctly Different Statements.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • pneumen_borealis
                    ... Do you think the author of John would have translated Logos into Word ? I sometimes think he may have used Holy Spirit instead. ... It s a very
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 10, 2003
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                      > Logos, as we all know, is often translated as "Word". The problems
                      > with that translation are too numerous to deal with in a short post.
                      > The word "Logos" was one used in mystery traditions, and it has a
                      > wide range of concepts it is meant to impart. Study, teaching....
                      > logic... are definately part of the point, within a personification
                      > (the term Torah also does not impart that notion of personification
                      > intended by the text).

                      Do you think the author of John would have translated "Logos" into
                      "Word"? I sometimes think he may have used Holy Spirit instead.

                      >
                      > To go on to John's point. What you describe, John, is pantheism.
                      > Pantheism is not something the historic Gnostics believed in, nor is
                      > it supported in Gnostic texts that I am aware of. There IS, though,
                      > a notion of the divine within mankind that could look on the surface
                      > to be pantheistic. It may seem like quibbling to you for me to point
                      > out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God IS man". Still,
                      > the difference is important to our understanding of the intent of
                      > Gnostic writings.
                      >

                      It's a very important point. Gnosticism describes the human condition
                      as being alienated from the Logos. A pantheists would tend to say that
                      all is God, so that it is impossible to alienated from God.

                      > PMCV
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "John Gilbert" <john2002@a...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Gentlepeople,
                      > >
                      > > Penn posited: "In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the
                      > Torah was
                      > > with God, and the Torah was God."
                      > >


                      I don't think so. The Word or Logos of John is somethng far more
                      fundamental than teachings or scripture. It is the original spirit in
                      the universe from which all creation emanates. This is distinct from
                      God the Creator of the Old Testament (the demiurge, to gnostics), who
                      put up walls between humans and the Word when he created the flawed
                      physical universe. The way to the Word, the divince spark, remains
                      within man, and I believe it is closely related to our capacity to
                      love. Perhaps the closest level to the Word is the Holy Spirit.

                      > > My response is that in the beginning (everything) was, and
                      > (everything) was
                      > > with God, and (everything) was God. To this it can be added there
                      > never was
                      > > and is not now anything that is not God. This, to me, is the
                      > fundamental
                      > > Dogma of all Gnostics that God is everything and everything is God
                      > by
                      > > whatever name you wish to call Her, Him or It. From that
                      > beginning rise all
                      > > Gnostic Sects and indeed all spiritual paths.
                      > >

                      I think this is wrong. Firstly, Gnosticism has no dogmas. It has
                      descriptions of the human condition that are somewhat fluid and make
                      sense to those who find them useful. They can cetainly be taken for
                      dogma, if one is inclined to interpret descriptions as prescriptions.

                      For example, some take dictionaries as ultimate authorities on the
                      spelling and meaning of words. I take them as a descriptive snapshot
                      of how language is used at a given time. The same can be said for the
                      myths and scriptures of Gnosticism.

                      Gnosticism has quite a different starting point than dogma and creeds.
                      Gnosticism has as its starting point the feeling that one is only
                      partially connected to the Divine. It is not something one believes.
                      It is something that is felt. The myths of Gnosticism illuminate that
                      condition, and grants the Gnostic the perspective to rise above the
                      alienation.

                      I would go as far to say that Fundamentalism is the opposite of
                      Gnosticism.
                    • Mike Leavitt
                      Hello pneumen_borealis ... We are overlooking the second meaning of Logos here. It could as easily be translated at Idea, instead of Word, really the Idea in
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 10, 2003
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                        Hello pneumen_borealis

                        On 10-Oct-03, you wrote:

                        >> Logos, as we all know, is often translated as "Word". The problems
                        >> with that translation are too numerous to deal with in a short
                        >> post. The word "Logos" was one used in mystery traditions, and it
                        >> has a wide range of concepts it is meant to impart. Study,
                        >> teaching.... logic... are definitely part of the point, within a
                        >> personification (the term Torah also does not impart that notion of
                        >> personification intended by the text).
                        >
                        > Do you think the author of John would have translated "Logos" into
                        > "Word"? I sometimes think he may have used Holy Spirit instead.

                        We are overlooking the second meaning of Logos here. It could as
                        easily be translated at Idea, instead of Word, really the Idea in the
                        Word, and then it makes better sense. I'm not so sure John (the
                        Evangelist) had that developed a trinitarian viewpoint. He seem more
                        Neo-Platonic.

                        >> To go on to John's point. What you describe, John, is pantheism.
                        >> Pantheism is not something the historic Gnostics believed in, nor
                        >> is it supported in Gnostic texts that I am aware of. There IS,
                        >> though, a notion of the divine within mankind that could look on
                        >> the surface to be pantheistic. It may seem like quibbling to you
                        >> for me to point out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God
                        >> IS man". Still, the difference is important to our understanding of
                        >> the intent of Gnostic writings.
                        >>
                        >
                        > It's a very important point. Gnosticism describes the human
                        > condition as being alienated from the Logos. A pantheists would tend
                        > to say that all is God, so that it is impossible to alienated from
                        > God.

                        This is basically true, Gnostics were not classical pantheists at all.

                        Regards
                        --
                        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                      • lady_caritas
                        ... Word, ... Still, ... of ... Okay, more quibbling. :-) To backtrack a bit here, PMCV made a distinction between two statements: God is IN man and God IS
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 10, 2003
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                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                          > MM Wayne
                          >
                          > Thought ya might like the following quote
                          >
                          > MP
                          > Penn
                          >
                          > --
                          > First there is Brahman, Lord of all, with whom is the Word, and the
                          Word,
                          > verily, is Brahman.
                          >
                          > Rig Veda
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > > >It may seem like quibbling to you for me to point
                          > > > out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God IS man".
                          Still,
                          > > > the difference is important to our understanding of the intent
                          of
                          > > > Gnostic writings.
                          > > >
                          > > > PMCV
                          > >
                          > > It is not Quibbling, it is significantly, Muy, Importante.
                          > >
                          > > The Word is God, God is the Word.
                          > >
                          > > Two separate and distinctly Different Statements.
                          > >


                          Okay, more quibbling. :-)

                          To backtrack a bit here, PMCV made a distinction between two
                          statements: "God is IN man" and "God IS man."

                          I do see a difference there.

                          Now, Wayne said: "The Word is God, God is the Word," which he
                          designated as two distinctly different statements.

                          How so? Word=God, and God=Word? I don't see the same distinction in
                          this comparison.


                          Cari
                        • Wayne
                          ... intent ... in ... I may not be clear in my post. If not I will try again. The Word is God. God is and is not the Word. The Law, The Word, it doesn t matter
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 10, 2003
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                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                            wrote:

                            > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > > >It may seem like quibbling to you for me to point
                            > > > > out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God IS man".
                            > Still,
                            > > > > the difference is important to our understanding of the
                            intent
                            > of
                            > > > > Gnostic writings.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > PMCV
                            > > >
                            > > > It is not Quibbling, it is significantly, Muy, Importante.
                            > > >
                            > > > The Word is God, God is the Word.
                            > > >
                            > > > Two separate and distinctly Different Statements.
                            > > >
                            >
                            >
                            > Okay, more quibbling. :-)
                            >
                            > To backtrack a bit here, PMCV made a distinction between two
                            > statements: "God is IN man" and "God IS man."
                            >
                            > I do see a difference there.
                            >
                            > Now, Wayne said: "The Word is God, God is the Word," which he
                            > designated as two distinctly different statements.
                            >
                            > How so? Word=God, and God=Word? I don't see the same distinction
                            in
                            > this comparison.
                            >
                            >
                            > Cari


                            I may not be clear in my post.
                            If not I will try again.

                            The Word is God.
                            God is and is not the Word.

                            The Law, The Word, it doesn't matter which came First, neither
                            one is a Material, a Physical, Reality, The Word, The Law these two
                            are the same, of the same source, Singularity.

                            The Word, God, The Law; it is very important which comes First;
                            the Chicken or the Egg.

                            The Word is God, The Word is the subject of the sentence with the
                            Name God used as a descriptive Noun, adjective.

                            God is the Word, God, becomes the subject of the sentence, an En-
                            Graven Image, the name of a person, place, thing, or Force, with The
                            Word being the adjective, descriptive of God.

                            The Word is God if God is descriptive of the Word.
                            The Word is not God if God is not descriptive of the Word.

                            The Infinite as an adjective, is not a Name, is the Image of Nothing.
                            The Infinite as a Noun, Name, the image of a person, place, thing, or
                            force, the subject, is an En-Graven Image, a False Face.

                            To Speak of God is to give a Name to, to define, give a Face to, the
                            nameless cause of the Heavens and the Earth.

                            In the Beginning, in a Time before Time began, before the moment of
                            Creation, the Heavens and the Earth, the Universe, was without Form,
                            Void, and there was Darkness upon The Face of the Deep.

                            If God is the Name of Nothing, If God is not a Name, If God is not a
                            reality that is Readily apparent, is without form, void, Emptiness,
                            if God is Dark Matter, the Darkness upon the Face of the Deep, if God
                            is relative, subject to No Name, to Nothing, unmeasurable, Infinite,
                            then God could be the Word, The Law, the Single True Nature of the
                            Universe, the Heavens and the Earth, the Reality of First Cause, The
                            Law of Singularity.
                          • Ginosko
                            MM Pneumen That doesn t preclude alienation however. At least not as a state of mind ;) MP Penn -- Abide not with dualism, Carefully avoid pursuing it; As soon
                            Message 13 of 30 , Oct 10, 2003
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                              MM Pneumen

                              That doesn't preclude alienation however. At least not as a state of mind ;)

                              MP
                              Penn

                              --
                              Abide not with dualism, Carefully avoid pursuing it; As
                              soon as you have right and wrong, Confusion ensues, and
                              Mind' is lost.

                              Zen Buddhism


                              > > Logos, as we all know, is often translated as "Word". The problems
                              > > with that translation are too numerous to deal with in a short post.
                              > > The word "Logos" was one used in mystery traditions, and it has a
                              > > wide range of concepts it is meant to impart. Study, teaching....
                              > > logic... are definately part of the point, within a personification
                              > > (the term Torah also does not impart that notion of personification
                              > > intended by the text).
                              >
                              > Do you think the author of John would have translated "Logos" into
                              > "Word"? I sometimes think he may have used Holy Spirit instead.
                              >
                              > >
                              > > To go on to John's point. What you describe, John, is pantheism.
                              > > Pantheism is not something the historic Gnostics believed in, nor is
                              > > it supported in Gnostic texts that I am aware of. There IS, though,
                              > > a notion of the divine within mankind that could look on the surface
                              > > to be pantheistic. It may seem like quibbling to you for me to point
                              > > out the difference between "God is IN man" and "God IS man". Still,
                              > > the difference is important to our understanding of the intent of
                              > > Gnostic writings.
                              > >
                              >
                              > It's a very important point. Gnosticism describes the human condition
                              > as being alienated from the Logos. A pantheists would tend to say that
                              > all is God, so that it is impossible to alienated from God.
                              >
                              > > PMCV
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "John Gilbert" <john2002@a...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > Gentlepeople,
                              > > >
                              > > > Penn posited: "In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the
                              > > Torah was
                              > > > with God, and the Torah was God."
                              > > >
                              >
                              >
                              > I don't think so. The Word or Logos of John is somethng far more
                              > fundamental than teachings or scripture. It is the original spirit in
                              > the universe from which all creation emanates. This is distinct from
                              > God the Creator of the Old Testament (the demiurge, to gnostics), who
                              > put up walls between humans and the Word when he created the flawed
                              > physical universe. The way to the Word, the divince spark, remains
                              > within man, and I believe it is closely related to our capacity to
                              > love. Perhaps the closest level to the Word is the Holy Spirit.
                              >
                              > > > My response is that in the beginning (everything) was, and
                              > > (everything) was
                              > > > with God, and (everything) was God. To this it can be added there
                              > > never was
                              > > > and is not now anything that is not God. This, to me, is the
                              > > fundamental
                              > > > Dogma of all Gnostics that God is everything and everything is God
                              > > by
                              > > > whatever name you wish to call Her, Him or It. From that
                              > > beginning rise all
                              > > > Gnostic Sects and indeed all spiritual paths.
                              > > >
                              >
                              > I think this is wrong. Firstly, Gnosticism has no dogmas. It has
                              > descriptions of the human condition that are somewhat fluid and make
                              > sense to those who find them useful. They can cetainly be taken for
                              > dogma, if one is inclined to interpret descriptions as prescriptions.
                              >
                              > For example, some take dictionaries as ultimate authorities on the
                              > spelling and meaning of words. I take them as a descriptive snapshot
                              > of how language is used at a given time. The same can be said for the
                              > myths and scriptures of Gnosticism.
                              >
                              > Gnosticism has quite a different starting point than dogma and creeds.
                              > Gnosticism has as its starting point the feeling that one is only
                              > partially connected to the Divine. It is not something one believes.
                              > It is something that is felt. The myths of Gnosticism illuminate that
                              > condition, and grants the Gnostic the perspective to rise above the
                              > alienation.
                              >
                              > I would go as far to say that Fundamentalism is the opposite of
                              > Gnosticism.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • Gerry
                              Reply to Wayne s post #8435: Wayne, let s T R Y using your earlier example in another context for clarity: The Pope is John Paul II. John Paul II is the Pope.
                              Message 14 of 30 , Oct 10, 2003
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                                Reply to Wayne’s post #8435:
                                 
                                Wayne, let’s T R Y using your earlier example in another context for clarity:
                                 
                                The Pope is John Paul II.
                                John Paul II is the Pope.
                                 
                                The Pope is John Paul II, The Pope is the subject of the sentence with the Name John Paul II used as a descriptive Noun, adjective.
                                 
                                John Paul II is the Pope, John Paul II, becomes the subject of the sentence, an En-Graven Image, the name of a person, place, thing, or Force, with The Pope being the adjective, descriptive of John Paul II.
                                 
                                The Pope is John Paul II if John Paul II is descriptive of the Pope.
                                The Pope is not John Paul II if John Paul II is not descriptive of the Pope.
                                 
                                Applied to another sentence, you can see the sort of problems this sort of reasoning leads to:
                                 
                                “The Pope is the leader of the Catholic Church” . . . ergo, by the absence of its Proper-Noun Complement, the Pope is NOT John Paul II.  Well, if this is the case, and the situation is thus, then why don’t we scream or make some sort of fuss to remove this impostor—oust him we must—from Vatican City where the trouble is brewin’ ’ere the Catholic faith is soon brought to ruin . . . , ruinous end, end of times, demise, chaotic disarray, the state of no longer existing, taken from visible to unrecognizable, lacking discernible characteristics, incomprehensible, lost in obscurity? 
                                 
                                Of course, it may well be that Frankie Valli will have the last word:
                                 
                                “Grease is the word
                                It's got groove it's got meaning
                                Grease is the time, is the place is the motion
                                Grease is the way we are feeling
                                 
                                Grease is the word is the word is the word is the word . . . .”
                                 
                              • Gerry
                                ... Ahhhh, I suppose that s why forms of to BE are among those verbs considered as linking in that they equate subject and complement. Thank you so much,
                                Message 15 of 30 , Oct 10, 2003
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                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > . . . Word=God, and God=Word? I don't see the same distinction in
                                  > this comparison.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Cari



                                  Ahhhh, I suppose that's why forms of "to BE" are among those verbs
                                  considered as "linking" in that they equate subject and complement.

                                  Thank you so much, Cari. In your case, maybe Bing Crosby will have
                                  the last word:

                                  "Sweet is the word for you . . . ." :-)


                                  Gerry
                                • pmcvflag
                                  Could you give some examples of the various meanings of Logos in Mystery Traditions and Gnosticism? Sincerely, Magusadeptus Well Magusadeptus, at first I was
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Oct 10, 2003
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                                    "Could you give some examples of the various meanings of Logos in
                                    Mystery Traditions and Gnosticism?

                                    Sincerely,
                                    Magusadeptus"

                                    Well Magusadeptus, at first I was thinking you meant to ask about
                                    translations, but sinse I had already given those in the post, I am
                                    assuming you are asking for the more cosmological meanings?

                                    Well, there are a few. Maybe instead of going through them, I can
                                    just point them out for you to read? For Gnosticism, you can pick
                                    out any number of books in the Nag Hammadi library, and you may find
                                    some differences. For instance, in the Tripartite Tractate, the
                                    Logos makes the Demiurge and works through him to create (Something
                                    closer to Philo where the Logos IS the Demiurge). However, in the
                                    Thought of Norea we see the Logos as the "Son" of the primal source
                                    and the mother.

                                    In some translations of Poimandres you will also see an emphasis
                                    placed on the "Logos" that mounts the waters in the beginning.

                                    I am not really sure if I am helping.

                                    PMCV
                                  • Wayne
                                    ... of mind ;) ... Confucianism will do it to you every Time.
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Oct 11, 2003
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                                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                      > MM Pneumen
                                      >
                                      > That doesn't preclude alienation however. At least not as a state
                                      of mind ;)
                                      >
                                      > MP
                                      > Penn
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Abide not with dualism, Carefully avoid pursuing it; As
                                      > soon as you have right and wrong, Confusion ensues, and
                                      > Mind' is lost.
                                      >
                                      > Zen Buddhism

                                      Confucianism will do it to you every Time.
                                    • Wayne
                                      ... of mind ;) ... Confucianism will do it to you every time.
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Oct 11, 2003
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                                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                        > MM Pneumen
                                        >
                                        > That doesn't preclude alienation however. At least not as a state
                                        of mind ;)
                                        >
                                        > MP
                                        > Penn
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > Abide not with dualism, Carefully avoid pursuing it; As
                                        > soon as you have right and wrong, Confusion ensues, and
                                        > Mind' is lost.
                                        >
                                        > Zen Buddhism


                                        Confucianism will do it to you every time.
                                      • Magusadeptus
                                        Hello PMCV, ... Yes, how Logos is traslated and interpreted in the Mystery Traditions and Gnosticism, especially in the cosmological sense. ... find ... You
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Oct 11, 2003
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                                          Hello PMCV,


                                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > [Well Magusadeptus, at first I was thinking you meant to ask about
                                          > translations, but sinse I had already given those in the post, I am
                                          > assuming you are asking for the more cosmological meanings?]

                                          Yes, how Logos is traslated and interpreted in the Mystery
                                          Traditions and Gnosticism, especially in the cosmological sense.
                                          >
                                          > [Well, there are a few. Maybe instead of going through them, I can
                                          > just point them out for you to read? For Gnosticism, you can pick
                                          > out any number of books in the Nag Hammadi library, and you may
                                          find
                                          > some differences. For instance, in the Tripartite Tractate, the
                                          > Logos makes the Demiurge and works through him to create (Something
                                          > closer to Philo where the Logos IS the Demiurge). However, in the
                                          > Thought of Norea we see the Logos as the "Son" of the primal source
                                          > and the mother.]
                                          >
                                          > [In some translations of Poimandres you will also see an emphasis
                                          > placed on the "Logos" that mounts the waters in the beginning.]
                                          >
                                          > [I am not really sure if I am helping.]

                                          You are always helpful PMCV. Thanks for the references, I'll look
                                          into them.
                                          Here are some definitions of Logos that I have found. Do any of
                                          these concur with your understanding of the definitions or
                                          interpretations of Logos in the Mystery Traditions or Gnosticism?

                                          Logos

                                          Primordial spirit of reason. Greek. A concept promoted by the Stoics,
                                          who perceived Logos as the mind of Jupiter, but more generally
                                          recognized as the divine essence from which all deities arise. Philo
                                          of Alexandria apportioned human characteristics to Logos. The Gnostic
                                          Christian Valentinus, identified Logos as the word coming from the
                                          mind of the father. The Christian father clement of Alexandria
                                          claimed it to be the first principle of the universe, while Origen
                                          perceived it as the principle embodied in the flesh by Jesus Christ.
                                          Page 147, Encyclopedia of Gods, Over 2,500 Deities of the World,
                                          Michael Jordan

                                          Logos (Greek, the "Word") – according to Philo, Logos is "the angel
                                          that appeared to Hagar, the cloud at the Red Sea, one of the 3 angels
                                          that appeared to Abraham (at Mamre, as Justin Martyr also taught),
                                          the divine form that changed the name of Jacob to Israel at Peniel."
                                          In rabbinic mysticism, Metatron is the personified Logos. Michael and
                                          the Messiah have also been identified with the concept, as has the
                                          Holy Ghost. [Rf. Muller, History of Jewish Mysticism.] Philo calls
                                          Logos, (reason) "the image of God, His Angel" ; also "the Oldest
                                          Angel, who is as though it were the Angel-chief of many names; for he
                                          is called Dominion, and the Name of God." [Rf. Mead, Thrice-greatest
                                          Hermes I, pp. 161-162]
                                          Page 175, A Dictionary of Angels, Including The Fallen Angels, Gustav
                                          Davidson

                                          Logos The Logos is the light and the life, at once spiritual and
                                          material, which combats both death and night. It is the antithesis of
                                          disorder and chaos, of evil and darkness. It is also cognate with the
                                          word and with thought.
                                          Page 191, A Dictionary of Symbols, J.E. Cirlot

                                          "Here the two types of mysticism are clearly named. One type is to
                                          be "worthy of the Creator," which in the context clearly means to
                                          become worthy to be identified with, to take on the characteristics
                                          of, the Creator through mystical union and transformation. This is
                                          the supreme experience, Philo's highest ambition. Second best to
                                          that, in the cosmic mysticism one takes on in one's mind the pattern
                                          of the Son of God, the cosmos, and so has the intercession of that
                                          Son with God, to the remission of one's sins and the gaining of all
                                          other spiritual gifts. The conception of the microcosm emerges in on
                                          of its earliest expressions, but man is a microcosm not because of
                                          his material form, or because the parts of his body resemble the
                                          universe as the reflection of the zodiac or of the later Sephiroth.
                                          He resembles the cosmos in the Platonic sense, in that the
                                          worshiper's mind appropriates the Form of the world, is transformed
                                          into the cosmic pattern. This Form is the Logos itself, as the
                                          reality of the material cosmos is the Logos present in it. As the
                                          Logos thus clothed in matter, the Son of God, turns in worship toward
                                          God, similarly the worshiper can become like the universe, a
                                          microcosm, as his mind becomes one with the Logos-Form. With that
                                          Logos-Form he is fused in such a mysticism that the cosmos, his type
                                          and ultimately himself, intercedes for him as he joins in the comic
                                          worship now by his own right: for he is the replica of the universe,
                                          its very self. This the High Priest teaches men, and represents to
                                          them as he wears this cosmic robe in the Temple that symbolizes the
                                          cosmos. The High Priest in putting on the cosmos, and becoming in his
                                          robes the Logos in the Cosmos, typifies the ideal (by this cosmic-
                                          mystic formulation) for every worshiper. The High Priest only shows
                                          the way for us all…"
                                          Page 165, Jewish Symbols in the Greco-Roman Period, Erwin R.
                                          Goodenough, edited and abridged by Jacob Neusner.


                                          Sincerely,
                                          Magusadeptus
                                        • Mike Leavitt
                                          Hello Wayne ... Confusionism or Confucianism? Zen there s what he quoted. :-) Perhaps we should remember, that even in Gnosticism, the Unknown Father is above
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Oct 11, 2003
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                                            Hello Wayne

                                            On 11-Oct-03, you wrote:

                                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                            >> MM Pneumen
                                            >>
                                            >> That doesn't preclude alienation however. At least not as a state
                                            > of mind ;)
                                            >>
                                            >> MP
                                            >> Penn
                                            >>
                                            >> --
                                            >> Abide not with dualism, Carefully avoid pursuing it; As
                                            >> soon as you have right and wrong, Confusion ensues, and
                                            >> Mind' is lost.
                                            >>
                                            >> Zen Buddhism
                                            >
                                            > Confucianism will do it to you every Time.

                                            Confusionism or Confucianism? Zen there's what he quoted. :-)
                                            Perhaps we should remember, that even in Gnosticism, the Unknown
                                            Father is above the opposites.

                                            Regards
                                            --
                                            Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                          • Penndragon
                                            MM PMCV Well, Spirit and Primal Thought/Cause are two of the main ones I can think of at the moment. In this case Logos = Pneuma = Ruach on various levels.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Oct 11, 2003
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                                              MM PMCV

                                              Well, Spirit and Primal Thought/Cause are two of the main ones I can think
                                              of at the moment. In this case Logos = Pneuma = Ruach on various levels.
                                              Logos as the Animata behind creation is another ;)

                                              MP
                                              Penn

                                              --
                                              But the soul must abandon her own being. This is where the death that is
                                              spiritual begins. If the soul is to undergo this death, then she must take
                                              leave of herself and all things, holding herself and all things to be as
                                              insignificant as they were before they existed ... I do not mean that the
                                              being of the soul falls into nothingness as she was before she was created,
                                              rather we should understand this cessation to be the eradication of
                                              possessing and having.

                                              Meister Eckhart


                                              > "Could you give some examples of the various meanings of Logos in
                                              > Mystery Traditions and Gnosticism?
                                              >
                                              > Sincerely,
                                              > Magusadeptus"
                                              >
                                              > Well Magusadeptus, at first I was thinking you meant to ask about
                                              > translations, but sinse I had already given those in the post, I am
                                              > assuming you are asking for the more cosmological meanings?
                                              >
                                              > Well, there are a few. Maybe instead of going through them, I can
                                              > just point them out for you to read? For Gnosticism, you can pick
                                              > out any number of books in the Nag Hammadi library, and you may find
                                              > some differences. For instance, in the Tripartite Tractate, the
                                              > Logos makes the Demiurge and works through him to create (Something
                                              > closer to Philo where the Logos IS the Demiurge). However, in the
                                              > Thought of Norea we see the Logos as the "Son" of the primal source
                                              > and the mother.
                                              >
                                              > In some translations of Poimandres you will also see an emphasis
                                              > placed on the "Logos" that mounts the waters in the beginning.
                                              >
                                              > I am not really sure if I am helping.
                                              >
                                              > PMCV
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Wayne
                                              ... with the Name John Paul II used as a descriptive Noun, adjective. ... the sentence, an En-Graven Image, the name of a person, place, thing, or Force, with
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Oct 24, 2003
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                                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                                                > Reply to Wayne's post #8435:
                                                >
                                                > Wayne, let's T R Y using your earlier example in another context
                                                for clarity:
                                                >
                                                > The Pope is John Paul II.
                                                > John Paul II is the Pope.
                                                >
                                                > The Pope is John Paul II, The Pope is the subject of the sentence
                                                with the Name John Paul II used as a descriptive Noun, adjective.
                                                >
                                                > John Paul II is the Pope, John Paul II, becomes the subject of
                                                the sentence, an En-Graven Image, the name of a person, place, thing,
                                                or Force, with The Pope being the adjective, descriptive of John Paul
                                                II.
                                                >
                                                > The Pope is John Paul II if John Paul II is descriptive of the
                                                Pope.
                                                > The Pope is not John Paul II if John Paul II is not descriptive
                                                of the Pope.
                                                >
                                                > Applied to another sentence, you can see the sort of problems this
                                                sort of reasoning leads to:
                                                >
                                                > "The Pope is the leader of the Catholic Church" . . . ergo, by the
                                                absence of its Proper-Noun Complement, the Pope is NOT John Paul II.
                                                Well, if this is the case, and the situation is thus, then why don't
                                                we scream or make some sort of fuss to remove this impostor-oust him
                                                we must-from Vatican City where the trouble is brewin' 'ere the
                                                Catholic faith is soon brought to ruin . . . , ruinous end, end of
                                                times, demise, chaotic disarray, the state of no longer existing,
                                                taken from visible to unrecognizable, lacking discernible
                                                characteristics, incomprehensible, lost in obscurity?
                                                >
                                                > Of course, it may well be that Frankie Valli will have the last
                                                word:
                                                >
                                                > "Grease is the word
                                                > It's got groove it's got meaning
                                                > Grease is the time, is the place is the motion
                                                > Grease is the way we are feeling
                                                >
                                                > Grease is the word is the word is the word is the word . . . ."


                                                The word is, the word is, the word is, the word is, No Name.


                                                The Word that is God is not a proper noun, Name.
                                                If God is the Word, God is the subject of the sentence is a proper
                                                noun, name.

                                                The Pope, the Catholic Church, John Paul II, Grease are of course
                                                words but they are also proper nouns, names.

                                                "Grease is a Proper noun, name, is not without form void.
                                                > It's got groove it's got meaning
                                                > Grease is the time, is the place is the motion
                                                > Grease is the way we are feeling
                                                >
                                                > Grease is the word is the word is the word is the word . . . ."



                                                The Cause of the Heavens and the Earth, the Reality of First Cause,
                                                the Unborn, the Uncreated, is Nameless, has no name, can not be
                                                spoken of, defined, is without dimension, without form, void.


                                                You can not compare two Words that are each a proper Noun, name, with
                                                two Words only one of which is a proper noun, name, the second word
                                                not being a proper noun, name, the name of nothing.

                                                The leader of the Catholic Church, the Pope, is John Paul II.
                                                The Pope, the Leader of the Catholic Church, is John Paul II.
                                                John Paul II, the Leader of the Catholic Church, is Pope.
                                                Pope John Paul II is the Leader of the Catholic Church.

                                                You can mix up any way you choose, Pope, Leader, John Paul II, the
                                                Catholic Church, and although it may not always sound good it is
                                                proper English, because you are comparing apples to apples.

                                                Where is the comparison in a Word that is a Proper Noun, Name, the
                                                Name of Something that has dimension and a word that is defined as
                                                having no dimension, to be without form, void, a Word that is, the
                                                Name of Nothing, a Word that is not a proper noun, name; you can not
                                                compare apples and orange.

                                                I'm wrong, you can if you want to.

                                                If God is nameless, can not be spoken of, if God is not a Proper
                                                noun, Name, if God is just Word that is without form, void, without
                                                dimension, then the Word God can not be the subject of sentence.

                                                God is not, can not be, the Word, the Word is God.

                                                If you make God the subject of the sentence, if you speak of God as
                                                if God were a name you create an en-Graven Image, a Material Reality,
                                                you make God a Manifest Physical Reality, you give God a Personality,
                                                a Persona, a False Face, God becomes a facade.

                                                If a Word that is not a proper noun, name, if No Name is God then God
                                                can be the Word that is not a Name, No Name is God, God is No Name,
                                                God is Nameless, Can not be spoken of.


                                                The Word, is the Holy Grail, is without Dimension.----->O
                                              • Gerry
                                                ... Wayne, as far as I can personally vouch for, you first introduced your topic of No Name at another site back in the summer of 2000. On the same day of
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Oct 25, 2003
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                                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > The word is, the word is, the word is, the word is, No Name....
                                                  >



                                                  Wayne, as far as I can personally vouch for, you first introduced
                                                  your topic of "No Name" at another site back in the summer of 2000.
                                                  On the same day of that post, you received replies offering
                                                  alternative terminology (with explanations) for the concept you were
                                                  trying to address; "Ein Sof" comes to mind. After numerous
                                                  inconsistencies in your posts, you were told two days later that your
                                                  theories needed "critical perspective." Well, almost 3½ years later,
                                                  that advice still holds true.

                                                  Face it——We won't be rethinking English grammar to suit your fancy.

                                                  By my reckoning, for something which you repeatedly claim "can not be
                                                  spoken of" [sic], you managed to speak of `God,' `Word,' `No
                                                  Name,' `Nameless,' `the Cause of the Heavens and the Earth,' `the
                                                  Reality of First Cause,' `the Unborn,' and `the Uncreated' in excess
                                                  of 3 dozen times in that one post——and that was strictly counting
                                                  those instances occurring as proper nouns.

                                                  Here's the thing, Wayne. That other group had a very broad focus.
                                                  In fact, it seems to have moved over the years from spiritual
                                                  esoterica to everything from porno spammers to evangelical
                                                  proselytizers to a Newage dumping ground. That is NOT going to
                                                  happen at THIS group as we have a much more limited scope (along with
                                                  moderators who wish to keep it that way).

                                                  It's about "Gnosticism" after all. Among a group of folks who, to at
                                                  least some degree, relate to traditional Gnostics, excessive
                                                  dissertations on the meaning of "ineffable" should be largely
                                                  unnecessary. We're here to discuss certain topics, and that's going
                                                  to continue. Those discussions cannot take place if we're not
                                                  allowed to use words to represent certain concepts. From now on, if
                                                  you see something mentioned during the course of our discussions that
                                                  you think shouldn't be spoken of, feel free to stare at the screen——
                                                  and ponder the silence of the Infinite.

                                                  Given that you still seem to be intent on discussing this subject
                                                  after all this time, you could even create your own group. I just
                                                  can't imagine how productive the group would be when you seem so
                                                  adamant that its topic is something about which nothing should be
                                                  spoken.

                                                  Gerry
                                                • Wayne
                                                  ... Just one question. Rethinking English grammar to suit my fancy?
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Oct 29, 2003
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                                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                                                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    >> Face it——We won't be rethinking English grammar to suit your fancy.
                                                    > >
                                                    > Gerry

                                                    Just one question.

                                                    Rethinking English grammar to suit my fancy?
                                                  • Gerry
                                                    ... Your philosophical argument about the ineffability of God is distinct from the rules of English. The word God *is* a proper noun whether it suits your
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Oct 30, 2003
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                                                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Just one question.
                                                      >
                                                      > Rethinking English grammar to suit my fancy?




                                                      A number of examples come to mind, but consider the following:


                                                      >>...if God is not a Proper noun,....<<


                                                      Your philosophical argument about the ineffability of God is distinct
                                                      from the rules of English. The word "God" *is* a proper noun whether
                                                      it suits your need for a valid premise or not.


                                                      >>...then the Word God can not be the subject of sentence.

                                                      God is not, can not be, the Word, the Word is God.<<


                                                      In the space of two lines, you've concluded that "God" cannot be the
                                                      subject of a sentence--and then you proceeded to use it as a
                                                      subject. You've then ignored the relationship between subjects and
                                                      complements:

                                                      the Word = God
                                                      God = the Word

                                                      By what you've said, I take it that you would only agree with the
                                                      first of those two equations, but *both* are valid in English, and
                                                      unless someone can come up with a really good example otherwise, I'd
                                                      say that it probably holds up in mathematics as well.

                                                      I actually enjoy a lot of the thoughts behind your posts, Wayne, but
                                                      your writing style is better suited to poetic usage. A good example
                                                      of that is when you compose something like a run-on sentence the
                                                      length of its own paragraph, building suspense for the readers
                                                      through one modifying clause after another, only to disappoint them
                                                      when they see that it simply dead-ends with no predicate. Again,
                                                      that's fine for figurative representations but not for proposing
                                                      technical definitions or determining proper language usage.

                                                      Gerry
                                                    • Wayne
                                                      ... distinct ... whether ... the ... I d ... theorem A proposition proved by logical deduction from one or more initial premises. Although geometrical theorems
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Oct 30, 2003
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                                                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                                                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Just one question.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Rethinking English grammar to suit my fancy?
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > A number of examples come to mind, but consider the following:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > >>...if God is not a Proper noun,....<<
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Your philosophical argument about the ineffability of God is
                                                        distinct
                                                        > from the rules of English. The word "God" *is* a proper noun
                                                        whether
                                                        > it suits your need for a valid premise or not.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > >>...then the Word God can not be the subject of sentence.
                                                        >
                                                        > God is not, can not be, the Word, the Word is God.<<
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > In the space of two lines, you've concluded that "God" cannot be
                                                        the
                                                        > subject of a sentence--and then you proceeded to use it as a
                                                        > subject. You've then ignored the relationship between subjects and
                                                        > complements:
                                                        >
                                                        > the Word = God
                                                        > God = the Word
                                                        >
                                                        > By what you've said, I take it that you would only agree with the
                                                        > first of those two equations, but *both* are valid in English, and
                                                        > unless someone can come up with a really good example otherwise,
                                                        I'd
                                                        > say that it probably holds up in mathematics as well.




                                                        theorem

                                                        A proposition proved by logical deduction from one or more initial
                                                        premises. Although geometrical theorems are the most widely known,
                                                        theorems exist in all branches of mathematics. A simple theorem which
                                                        is proved and then used towards the proof of another theorem is known
                                                        as a lemma. If the theorem is 'statement p implies statement q ', the
                                                        converse is 'statement q implies statement p '. The converse of a
                                                        theorem is not always true. For example, if two triangles are
                                                        congruent, they are equal in area, but two triangles that are equal
                                                        in area are not necessarily congruent.


                                                        Taken From: Webster's World Encyclopedia 2001. Published by Webster
                                                        Publishing, 2000. Copyright Webster Publishing, and/or contributors.


                                                        > Gerry
                                                      • Gerry
                                                        ... which ... known ... the ... Wayne, I m not a mathematician, but I didn t just fall off the truck, either. There are three problems that I see right off
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Oct 31, 2003
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                                                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > theorem
                                                          >
                                                          > A proposition proved by logical deduction from one or more initial
                                                          > premises. Although geometrical theorems are the most widely known,
                                                          > theorems exist in all branches of mathematics. A simple theorem
                                                          which
                                                          > is proved and then used towards the proof of another theorem is
                                                          known
                                                          > as a lemma. If the theorem is 'statement p implies statement q ',
                                                          the
                                                          > converse is 'statement q implies statement p '. The converse of a
                                                          > theorem is not always true. For example, if two triangles are
                                                          > congruent, they are equal in area, but two triangles that are equal
                                                          > in area are not necessarily congruent.
                                                          >



                                                          Wayne, I'm not a mathematician, but I didn't just fall off the truck,
                                                          either. There are three problems that I see right off the bat with
                                                          what you've found (regarding its application to the previous
                                                          argument):

                                                          • It assumes that statement Q is valid from the start (yours was not).
                                                          • After the alleged premise, we're relating terms, not statements.
                                                          • That relation involves equality, not congruence.

                                                          Should we rewrite scripture, perhaps, to say that "the Word exhibits
                                                          similarity to God"? Looks like a lot of work to go to when one might
                                                          more simply revise his argument (or at least give it a rest).

                                                          Gerry
                                                        • Mike Leavitt
                                                          Hello Gerry ... Not to mention that his argument is neo-Pythagorean. :-) (sorry, couldn t resist). Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Oct 31, 2003
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                                                            Hello Gerry

                                                            On 31-Oct-03, you wrote:

                                                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                                            >>
                                                            >> theorem
                                                            >>
                                                            >> A proposition proved by logical deduction from one or more initial
                                                            >> premises. Although geometrical theorems are the most widely known,
                                                            >> theorems exist in all branches of mathematics. A simple theorem
                                                            > which
                                                            >> is proved and then used towards the proof of another theorem is
                                                            > known
                                                            >> as a lemma. If the theorem is 'statement p implies statement q ',
                                                            > the
                                                            >> converse is 'statement q implies statement p '. The converse of a
                                                            >> theorem is not always true. For example, if two triangles are
                                                            >> congruent, they are equal in area, but two triangles that are equal
                                                            >> in area are not necessarily congruent.
                                                            >>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Wayne, I'm not a mathematician, but I didn't just fall off the
                                                            > truck, either. There are three problems that I see right off the bat
                                                            > with what you've found (regarding its application to the previous
                                                            > argument):
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Should we rewrite scripture, perhaps, to say that "the Word exhibits
                                                            > similarity to God"? Looks like a lot of work to go to when one might
                                                            > more simply revise his argument (or at least give it a rest).
                                                            >
                                                            > Gerry

                                                            Not to mention that his argument is neo-Pythagorean. :-) (sorry,
                                                            couldn't resist).

                                                            Regards
                                                            --
                                                            Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                                          • Wayne
                                                            ... initial ... known, ... equal ... truck, ... not). ... exhibits ... might ... Revise my argument? What can I say, the man that, knows (in the biblical
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Oct 31, 2003
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                                                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                                                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                                              > >
                                                              > > theorem
                                                              > >
                                                              > > A proposition proved by logical deduction from one or more
                                                              initial
                                                              > > premises. Although geometrical theorems are the most widely
                                                              known,
                                                              > > theorems exist in all branches of mathematics. A simple theorem
                                                              > which
                                                              > > is proved and then used towards the proof of another theorem is
                                                              > known
                                                              > > as a lemma. If the theorem is 'statement p implies statement q ',
                                                              > the
                                                              > > converse is 'statement q implies statement p '. The converse of a
                                                              > > theorem is not always true. For example, if two triangles are
                                                              > > congruent, they are equal in area, but two triangles that are
                                                              equal
                                                              > > in area are not necessarily congruent.
                                                              > >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Wayne, I'm not a mathematician, but I didn't just fall off the
                                                              truck,
                                                              > either. There are three problems that I see right off the bat with
                                                              > what you've found (regarding its application to the previous
                                                              > argument):
                                                              >
                                                              > • It assumes that statement Q is valid from the start (yours was
                                                              not).
                                                              > • After the alleged premise, we're relating terms, not statements.
                                                              > • That relation involves equality, not congruence.
                                                              >
                                                              > Should we rewrite scripture, perhaps, to say that "the Word
                                                              exhibits
                                                              > similarity to God"? Looks like a lot of work to go to when one
                                                              might
                                                              > more simply revise his argument (or at least give it a rest).
                                                              >
                                                              > Gerry


                                                              Revise my argument?

                                                              What can I say, the man that, knows (in the biblical sense), has
                                                              knowledge of Namable God has carved, submits to the Reality of a
                                                              graven image, is wed to, is one with a False God, a God created in
                                                              his own personal Image of what he Imagines God to be.
                                                            • Wayne
                                                              ... Did you know that when the two that are One become the one that is Two that it creates a Temporal problem for the One that is Two, differentiated, of Two
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Oct 31, 2003
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                                                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:

                                                                > Not to mention that his argument is neo-Pythagorean. :-) (sorry,
                                                                > couldn't resist).
                                                                >
                                                                > Regards
                                                                > --
                                                                > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


                                                                Did you know that when the two that are One become the one
                                                                that is Two that it creates a Temporal problem for the
                                                                One that is Two, differentiated, of Two Minds.

                                                                The One that is two looses touch with the Reality of the Moment,
                                                                the Here Now, Time, the material world of reality as it is.

                                                                As a Space Cadet, the One that is Two, not being able to keep
                                                                even one foot planted firmly on the ground, becomes lost in
                                                                Space-Time, the Twice-Light Zone, becomes Irrational.

                                                                Man's, One, Single, Only, Salvation is to become a continuum, the
                                                                Hole of a Single Reality->O, One, a singularity, causing the two that
                                                                are One to be greater than the sum total of its parts.


                                                                Hermes Pathagoras Trismegistus.
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