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A level of the Logos

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  • Penndragon
    MM Guys Some are aware that Logos carries with it numerous levels of meaning. Who among you would interpret Joh 1:1 in the following light? In the beginning
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 7, 2003
      MM Guys
       
      Some are aware that Logos carries with it numerous levels of meaning. Who among you would interpret Joh 1:1 in the following light?
       
      In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was with God, and the Torah was God.
       
      MP
      Penn
       
      --
      Paradise is where I am.
       
      - Voltaire (1694-1778)
       
       
    • Wayne
      ... In the beginning was the Word, the Law, and the Word, the Law, was one with God, the same Reality, the Word is, God, the Law.
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 9, 2003
        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
        > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was with
        >God, and the Torah was God.
        >
        > MP
        > Penn


        In the beginning was the Word, the Law, and the Word, the Law, was
        one with God, the same Reality, the Word is, God, the Law.
      • pneumen_borealis
        ... John rarely refers to the Law as a good thing. Jesus s mission was to replace the law with Love. A person that acts out of Love has no need for the law. At
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 10, 2003
          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
          wrote:
          > > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was with
          > >God, and the Torah was God.
          > >
          > > MP
          > > Penn
          >
          >
          > In the beginning was the Word, the Law, and the Word, the Law, was
          > one with God, the same Reality, the Word is, God, the Law.

          John rarely refers to the Law as a good thing. Jesus's mission was to
          replace the law with Love. A person that acts out of Love has no need
          for the law.

          At best, the Law is another emanation of the Word when applied with
          Love. Then it is Justice. At worst, it is a creation of the Demiurge,
          something that keeps us from God. When it is applied without Love,
          this is the case. The Law exists, however, on a much lower level than
          the Word and God, as it can be used for good, evil, and benign
          purposes.
        • elyon1234
          Penn, this time I waited until the thread had received several responses:) My view of John 1:1 is that the verse describes the initial or carrier wave
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 10, 2003
            Penn, this time I waited until the thread had received several
            responses:)

            My view of John 1:1 is that the verse describes the initial or
            carrier wave vibration (wave form) within the body of the
            indescribable source that sets up the wave crest-trough duality
            (yin-yang, the dance) of creation and the space-time matrix.

            This primal sacred vibration, which manifest us, is the key to
            dissolving our attachment to the psycho-spiritual structure that we
            cling to as self.

            When we focus attention on the Word, the secondary wave forms that
            constitute Sophia, the "illusion", self liberate.

            The Word (the first and the last), in a final gesture of surrender,
            is transcended and we merge with our source as the drop transcends
            identification with the wave (duality) and recognizes the ocean (its
            true non-dual nature).

            As you said, there are levels of interpretation, this is the
            pneumatic and relates to the initiation of the vital breath.

            Just my humble POV :)

            Peace,

            ely

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
            > MM Guys
            >
            > Some are aware that Logos carries with it numerous levels of
            meaning. Who among you would interpret Joh 1:1 in the following light?
            >
            > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was with
            God, and the Torah was God.
            >
            > MP
            > Penn
            >
            > --
            > Paradise is where I am.
            >
            > - Voltaire (1694-1778)
          • Wayne
            ... with ... was ... to ... need ... Demiurge, ... than ... We are not speaking of the same Law, Moral Law, Judgement, the knowledge of Good and Evil is not
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 10, 2003
              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pneumen_borealis <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
              > wrote:
              > > > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was
              with
              > > >God, and the Torah was God.
              > > >
              > > > MP
              > > > Penn
              > >
              > >
              > > In the beginning was the Word, the Law, and the Word, the Law,
              was
              > > one with God, the same Reality, the Word is, God, the Law.
              >
              > John rarely refers to the Law as a good thing. Jesus's mission was
              to
              > replace the law with Love. A person that acts out of Love has no
              need
              > for the law.
              >
              > At best, the Law is another emanation of the Word when applied with
              > Love. Then it is Justice. At worst, it is a creation of the
              Demiurge,
              > something that keeps us from God. When it is applied without Love,
              > this is the case. The Law exists, however, on a much lower level
              than
              > the Word and God, as it can be used for good, evil, and benign
              > purposes.


              We are not speaking of the same Law, Moral Law, Judgement, the
              knowledge of Good and Evil is not God's Law.

              When Adam was found hiding in the bushes after having become Wise to
              everything, that was and was not Good or Evil, Right and Wrong, Moral
              Law, it was not the first time that he had noticed his nakedness.

              Adam was ashamed of his nakedness because he had just become aware
              of, acquired, eaten of, consumed, was made one with, the Knowledge
              that was wrong to be naked.

              Singularity, the Law of, the Single True Nature of the Universe, the
              Reality of First Cause, Boundlessness, Freedom of Spirit, the Nature,
              the Spirit of Freedom, bringing Great, Divine Joy, Love without Cause.

              Keeper of the Holy Grail.--->O

              Man is to be set Free from the Chaos of the Material World of
              Reality, Evolution, the Flesh. Man is meant to be a Free Spirit,
              Infinite, Boundless, Free of Morality, a Joyous Spirit.
            • Ginosko
              MM Pneumen Actually no. As Jesus says, Not one jot of the law will pass....... I come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, etc. I.e to fullfill is to
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 10, 2003
                MM Pneumen

                Actually no. As Jesus says, Not one jot of the law will pass....... I come
                not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, etc. I.e to fullfill is to mature
                it (in understanding) in much the same way as rthe fruit is the matured
                seed.

                MP
                Penn

                --
                "It is
                the greatest of all lessons to know oneself. For if
                one knows oneself one will know God, and knowing God,
                that person will be made like God."

                Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215)


                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                > wrote:
                > > > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was with
                > > >God, and the Torah was God.
                > > >
                > > > MP
                > > > Penn
                > >
                > >
                > > In the beginning was the Word, the Law, and the Word, the Law, was
                > > one with God, the same Reality, the Word is, God, the Law.
                >
                > John rarely refers to the Law as a good thing. Jesus's mission was to
                > replace the law with Love. A person that acts out of Love has no need
                > for the law.
                >
                > At best, the Law is another emanation of the Word when applied with
                > Love. Then it is Justice. At worst, it is a creation of the Demiurge,
                > something that keeps us from God. When it is applied without Love,
                > this is the case. The Law exists, however, on a much lower level than
                > the Word and God, as it can be used for good, evil, and benign
                > purposes.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Ginosko
                MM Ely Sounds somewhat like the Vedic accounting as well. Now imagine this. The Eve of the OT = Mary in the NT = Sophia in Gnostic texts. The Word is
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 10, 2003
                  MM Ely

                  Sounds somewhat like the Vedic accounting as well.

                  Now imagine this. The Eve of the OT = Mary in the NT = Sophia in Gnostic
                  texts. The Word is fullfilling (maturing) within our understanding of it as
                  we progress thru the accounts of each which is really the same, i.e. nothing
                  new under the sun.

                  I wouldn't say that level is "the pneumatic", I would however say it is "a
                  pneumatic" understanding. Tis a common misconception that the is only one
                  understanding in the pneumatic model. Now lets take another meaning of
                  Logos, i.e. cause, reason, etc. The Pneumatic is in essence looking at the
                  cause or reason (word or logos) of the object so to speak. However this can
                  be seen from numerous angles. It'd be like my asking the members of the list
                  which direction the sun moves thru the sky, clockwise or anti. Those viewing
                  from the northern hemisphere will say clockwise. Those in the south will say
                  anti. Some will say from west to east, etc. Each will be right to a degree
                  and each will also be wrong to a degree ;)

                  MP
                  Penn (awaiting the next pole reveral when west becomes east)

                  --
                  My religion is simple.
                  My religion is love.

                  Dalai Lama


                  > Penn, this time I waited until the thread had received several
                  > responses:)
                  >
                  > My view of John 1:1 is that the verse describes the initial or
                  > carrier wave vibration (wave form) within the body of the
                  > indescribable source that sets up the wave crest-trough duality
                  > (yin-yang, the dance) of creation and the space-time matrix.
                  >
                  > This primal sacred vibration, which manifest us, is the key to
                  > dissolving our attachment to the psycho-spiritual structure that we
                  > cling to as self.
                  >
                  > When we focus attention on the Word, the secondary wave forms that
                  > constitute Sophia, the "illusion", self liberate.
                  >
                  > The Word (the first and the last), in a final gesture of surrender,
                  > is transcended and we merge with our source as the drop transcends
                  > identification with the wave (duality) and recognizes the ocean (its
                  > true non-dual nature).
                  >
                  > As you said, there are levels of interpretation, this is the
                  > pneumatic and relates to the initiation of the vital breath.
                  >
                  > Just my humble POV :)
                  >
                  > Peace,
                  >
                  > ely
                  >
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                  > > MM Guys
                  > >
                  > > Some are aware that Logos carries with it numerous levels of
                  > meaning. Who among you would interpret Joh 1:1 in the following light?
                  > >
                  > > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was with
                  > God, and the Torah was God.
                  > >
                  > > MP
                  > > Penn
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > Paradise is where I am.
                  > >
                  > > - Voltaire (1694-1778)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • lady_caritas
                  Regarding the law, the Valentinian teacher, Ptolemy, had some thoughts to share with the traditional Christian, Flora. He taught referring to scripture and
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 11, 2003
                    Regarding the law, the Valentinian teacher, Ptolemy, had some
                    thoughts to share with the traditional Christian, Flora. He taught
                    referring to scripture and concepts (moral, some nonmetaphysical) she
                    would understand. Ptolemy divided the law into three subdivisions,
                    parts to be fulfilled; others abolished:

                    From _Ptolemy's Epistle to Flora_ (Bentley Layton trans.) ~

                    "And so it can be granted that the actual law of god is subdivided
                    into three parts. The first subdivision is the part that was
                    fulfilled by the savior: for `you shall not kill,' `you shall not
                    commit adultery,' `you shall not swear falsely' are subsumed under
                    not being angry, not looking lustfully at another, and not swearing
                    at all.

                    The second subdivision is the part that was completely abolished.
                    For the commandment of `an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,'
                    which is interwoven with injustice and itself involves an act of
                    injustice, was abolished by the savior with injunctions to the
                    contrary, and of two contraries one must `abolish' the other: `For I
                    say to you (pl.), Do not in any way resist one who is evil. But if
                    any one strikes you (sing.), turn to him the other cheek also.'

                    And the third subdivision is the part whose referent was changed and
                    which was altered from the physical to the spiritual—the allegorical
                    part, which is ordained after the image of the superior realm. Now,
                    the images and allegories are indicative of other matters, and they
                    were well and good while truth was not present. But now that truth
                    is present, one must do the works of truth and not those of its
                    imagery."


                    Cari


                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                    > MM Pneumen
                    >
                    > Actually no. As Jesus says, Not one jot of the law will pass.......
                    I come
                    > not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, etc. I.e to fullfill is
                    to mature
                    > it (in understanding) in much the same way as rthe fruit is the
                    matured
                    > seed.
                    >
                    > MP
                    > Penn
                    >
                    > --
                    > "It is
                    > the greatest of all lessons to know oneself. For if
                    > one knows oneself one will know God, and knowing God,
                    > that person will be made like God."
                    >
                    > Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215)
                    >
                    >
                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                    > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was
                    with
                    > > > >God, and the Torah was God.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > MP
                    > > > > Penn
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > In the beginning was the Word, the Law, and the Word, the Law,
                    was
                    > > > one with God, the same Reality, the Word is, God, the Law.
                    > >
                    > > John rarely refers to the Law as a good thing. Jesus's mission
                    was to
                    > > replace the law with Love. A person that acts out of Love has no
                    need
                    > > for the law.
                    > >
                    > > At best, the Law is another emanation of the Word when applied
                    with
                    > > Love. Then it is Justice. At worst, it is a creation of the
                    Demiurge,
                    > > something that keeps us from God. When it is applied without Love,
                    > > this is the case. The Law exists, however, on a much lower level
                    than
                    > > the Word and God, as it can be used for good, evil, and benign
                    > > purposes.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                  • Gerry
                    ... Those viewing ... will say ... degree ... Since Copernicus was unable to join our list (and to keep him from turning in his grave), he might have wanted to
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 11, 2003
                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                      > It'd be like my asking the members of the list
                      > which direction the sun moves thru the sky, clockwise or anti.
                      Those viewing
                      > from the northern hemisphere will say clockwise. Those in the south
                      will say
                      > anti. Some will say from west to east, etc. Each will be right to a
                      degree
                      > and each will also be wrong to a degree ;)
                      >



                      Since Copernicus was unable to join our list (and to keep him from
                      turning in his grave), he might have wanted to point out that all
                      those members would have been wrong . . . by more than a degree.

                      Gerry
                    • Mike Leavitt
                      Hello Gerry ... Good one, because the sun does not move through the sky, it only appears to, it is the earth s movement on its axes that produces the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 11, 2003
                        Hello Gerry

                        On 11-Oct-03, you wrote:

                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                        >> It'd be like my asking the members of the list
                        >> which direction the sun moves thru the sky, clockwise or anti.
                        > Those viewing
                        >> from the northern hemisphere will say clockwise. Those in the south
                        > will say
                        >> anti. Some will say from west to east, etc. Each will be right to a
                        > degree
                        >> and each will also be wrong to a degree ;)
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Since Copernicus was unable to join our list (and to keep him from
                        > turning in his grave), he might have wanted to point out that all
                        > those members would have been wrong . . . by more than a degree.
                        >
                        > Gerry

                        Good one, because the sun does not move through the sky, it only
                        appears to, it is the earth's movement on its axes that produces the
                        appearance of the sun's movement. The earth, BTW, turns the same
                        direction in the southern hemisphere. :-) A good example of
                        discerning truth from appearance.

                        Regards
                        --
                        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                      • Wayne
                        ... I come ... to mature ... matured ... To Fulfill, Was Jesus speaking of the Letter of the Law or the Spirit of the Law. What is the Spirit of the Law?
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 11, 2003
                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                          > MM Pneumen
                          >
                          > Actually no. As Jesus says, Not one jot of the law will pass.......
                          I come
                          > not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, etc. I.e to fullfill is
                          to mature
                          > it (in understanding) in much the same way as rthe fruit is the
                          matured
                          > seed.
                          >
                          > MP
                          > Penn


                          To Fulfill, Was Jesus speaking of the Letter of the Law or the Spirit
                          of the Law.

                          What is the Spirit of the Law?
                        • Ginosko
                          MM Wayne The Spirit definately, i.e. the Soul, the Mindset, etc. MP Penn -- In filling a pipe, all space (represented by the offerings to the powers of the six
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 11, 2003
                            MM Wayne

                            The Spirit definately, i.e. the Soul, the Mindset, etc.

                            MP
                            Penn

                            --
                            In filling a pipe, all space (represented by the offerings to the powers of
                            the six directions) and all things (represented by the grains of tobacco)
                            are contracted within a single point (the bowl or heart of pipe), so that
                            the pipe contains, or really is, the universe. But since the pipe is the
                            universe, it is also man, and the one who fills a pipe should identify
                            himself with it, thus not only establishing the center of the universe, but
                            also his own center; he so "expands" that the six directions of space are
                            actually brought within himself. It is by this "expansion" that a man
                            ceases to be a part, a fragment, and becomes whole or holy; he shatters the
                            illusion of separateness.

                            Black Elk


                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                            > > MM Pneumen
                            > >
                            > > Actually no. As Jesus says, Not one jot of the law will pass.......
                            > I come
                            > > not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, etc. I.e to fullfill is
                            > to mature
                            > > it (in understanding) in much the same way as rthe fruit is the
                            > matured
                            > > seed.
                            > >
                            > > MP
                            > > Penn
                            >
                            >
                            > To Fulfill, Was Jesus speaking of the Letter of the Law or the Spirit
                            > of the Law.
                            >
                            > What is the Spirit of the Law?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                          • elyon1234
                            Penn, The reason that I list the John 1:1 as relating to pneumatic (air) initiation is that we come to recognize the vibratory aspect of the Logos within the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 12, 2003
                              Penn,

                              The reason that I list the John 1:1 as relating to pneumatic (air)
                              initiation is that we come to recognize the vibratory aspect of the
                              Logos within the body-mind through attention to the breath and its
                              source. We come to recognize the radiant aspect of the Logos in the
                              Spirit Baptism (fire) initiation and as Living Waters in the Nectar
                              (water) initiation and finally as the Rock in the earth initiation.

                              The elemental initiations may have been reserved for the transition
                              from psychic to pneumatic standing. The initiations could also be
                              given in stages depending on the attainments of the initiates.

                              The initiations gave the aspirant the practices necessary to
                              completely transcend the rational mind and receive direct
                              non-conceptual recognition of their true nature (Supreme Gnosis).

                              ely




                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                              > MM Ely
                              >
                              > Sounds somewhat like the Vedic accounting as well.
                              >
                              > Now imagine this. The Eve of the OT = Mary in the NT = Sophia in
                              Gnostic
                              > texts. The Word is fullfilling (maturing) within our understanding
                              of it as
                              > we progress thru the accounts of each which is really the same,
                              i.e.
                              nothing
                              > new under the sun.
                              >
                              > I wouldn't say that level is "the pneumatic", I would however say
                              it
                              is "a
                              > pneumatic" understanding. Tis a common misconception that the is
                              only one
                              > understanding in the pneumatic model. Now lets take another meaning
                              of
                              > Logos, i.e. cause, reason, etc. The Pneumatic is in essence looking
                              at the
                              > cause or reason (word or logos) of the object so to speak. However
                              this can
                              > be seen from numerous angles. It'd be like my asking the members of
                              the list
                              > which direction the sun moves thru the sky, clockwise or anti.
                              Those
                              viewing
                              > from the northern hemisphere will say clockwise. Those in the south
                              will say
                              > anti. Some will say from west to east, etc. Each will be right to a
                              degree
                              > and each will also be wrong to a degree ;)
                              >
                              > MP
                              > Penn (awaiting the next pole reveral when west becomes east)
                              >
                              > --
                              > My religion is simple.
                              > My religion is love.
                              >
                              > Dalai Lama
                              >
                              >
                              > > Penn, this time I waited until the thread had received several
                              > > responses:)
                              > >
                              > > My view of John 1:1 is that the verse describes the initial or
                              > > carrier wave vibration (wave form) within the body of the
                              > > indescribable source that sets up the wave crest-trough duality
                              > > (yin-yang, the dance) of creation and the space-time matrix.
                              > >
                              > > This primal sacred vibration, which manifest us, is the key to
                              > > dissolving our attachment to the psycho-spiritual structure that
                              we
                              > > cling to as self.
                              > >
                              > > When we focus attention on the Word, the secondary wave forms that
                              > > constitute Sophia, the "illusion", self liberate.
                              > >
                              > > The Word (the first and the last), in a final gesture of
                              surrender,
                              > > is transcended and we merge with our source as the drop transcends
                              > > identification with the wave (duality) and recognizes the ocean
                              (its
                              > > true non-dual nature).
                              > >
                              > > As you said, there are levels of interpretation, this is the
                              > > pneumatic and relates to the initiation of the vital breath.
                              > >
                              > > Just my humble POV :)
                              > >
                              > > Peace,
                              > >
                              > > ely
                              > >
                              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                              wrote:
                              > > > MM Guys
                              > > >
                              > > > Some are aware that Logos carries with it numerous levels of
                              > > meaning. Who among you would interpret Joh 1:1 in the following
                              light?
                              > > >
                              > > > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was
                              with
                              > > God, and the Torah was God.
                              > > >
                              > > > MP
                              > > > Penn
                              > > >
                              > > > --
                              > > > Paradise is where I am.
                              > > >
                              > > > - Voltaire (1694-1778)
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo
                              com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                            • pneumen_borealis
                              ... I come ... to mature ... matured ... Including the one about an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth the one about stoning adulterers, and the about
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 14, 2003
                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                > MM Pneumen
                                >
                                > Actually no. As Jesus says, Not one jot of the law will pass.......
                                I come
                                > not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, etc. I.e to fullfill is
                                to mature
                                > it (in understanding) in much the same way as rthe fruit is the
                                matured
                                > seed.
                                >

                                Including the one about "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
                                the one about stoning adulterers, and the about working on the
                                Sabbath? Seems to me that Jesus pretty directly challenged those, not
                                just for the sake of destroying law, but because they interfered
                                witht the fulfillment of the true aims of that law.

                                Love (i.e. a pneumatic understanding of Love) is the fulfillment of
                                the Law Jesus was refering to:

                                "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as
                                I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all
                                people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one
                                another."

                                This is because a pneumatic Love is a Truer path to Justice than a
                                literal or psychic interpretation of the Law.


                                > MP
                                > Penn
                                >
                                > --
                                > "It is
                                > the greatest of all lessons to know oneself. For if
                                > one knows oneself one will know God, and knowing God,
                                > that person will be made like God."
                                >
                                > Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215)
                                >
                                >
                                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah was
                                with
                                > > > >God, and the Torah was God.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > MP
                                > > > > Penn
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > In the beginning was the Word, the Law, and the Word, the Law,
                                was
                                > > > one with God, the same Reality, the Word is, God, the Law.
                                > >
                                > > John rarely refers to the Law as a good thing. Jesus's mission
                                was to
                                > > replace the law with Love. A person that acts out of Love has no
                                need
                                > > for the law.
                                > >
                                > > At best, the Law is another emanation of the Word when applied
                                with
                                > > Love. Then it is Justice. At worst, it is a creation of the
                                Demiurge,
                                > > something that keeps us from God. When it is applied without Love,
                                > > this is the case. The Law exists, however, on a much lower level
                                than
                                > > the Word and God, as it can be used for good, evil, and benign
                                > > purposes.
                                > >
                              • pneumen_borealis
                                Thanks for finishing that thought with a far more literate quote than my ramblings. I did not know Ptolemy was a Valentinian. The fulfilment indeed involved
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 14, 2003
                                  Thanks for finishing that thought with a far more literate quote than
                                  my ramblings. I did not know Ptolemy was a Valentinian.

                                  The fulfilment indeed involved abolishing parts of the Law
                                  inconsistent Jesus's new commandment to love one another, which was
                                  my point, and retaining the ones that were.


                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Regarding the law, the Valentinian teacher, Ptolemy, had some
                                  > thoughts to share with the traditional Christian, Flora. He taught
                                  > referring to scripture and concepts (moral, some nonmetaphysical)
                                  she
                                  > would understand. Ptolemy divided the law into three subdivisions,
                                  > parts to be fulfilled; others abolished:
                                  >
                                  > From _Ptolemy's Epistle to Flora_ (Bentley Layton trans.) ~
                                  >
                                  > "And so it can be granted that the actual law of god is subdivided
                                  > into three parts. The first subdivision is the part that was
                                  > fulfilled by the savior: for `you shall not kill,' `you shall not
                                  > commit adultery,' `you shall not swear falsely' are subsumed under
                                  > not being angry, not looking lustfully at another, and not swearing
                                  > at all.
                                  >
                                  > The second subdivision is the part that was completely abolished.
                                  > For the commandment of `an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,'
                                  > which is interwoven with injustice and itself involves an act of
                                  > injustice, was abolished by the savior with injunctions to the
                                  > contrary, and of two contraries one must `abolish' the other: `For
                                  I
                                  > say to you (pl.), Do not in any way resist one who is evil. But if
                                  > any one strikes you (sing.), turn to him the other cheek also.'
                                  >
                                  > And the third subdivision is the part whose referent was changed
                                  and
                                  > which was altered from the physical to the spiritual—the
                                  allegorical
                                  > part, which is ordained after the image of the superior realm.
                                  Now,
                                  > the images and allegories are indicative of other matters, and they
                                  > were well and good while truth was not present. But now that truth
                                  > is present, one must do the works of truth and not those of its
                                  > imagery."
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Cari
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                  > > MM Pneumen
                                  > >
                                  > > Actually no. As Jesus says, Not one jot of the law will
                                  pass.......
                                  > I come
                                  > > not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, etc. I.e to fullfill
                                  is
                                  > to mature
                                  > > it (in understanding) in much the same way as rthe fruit is the
                                  > matured
                                  > > seed.
                                  > >
                                  > > MP
                                  > > Penn
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > "It is
                                  > > the greatest of all lessons to know oneself. For if
                                  > > one knows oneself one will know God, and knowing God,
                                  > > that person will be made like God."
                                  > >
                                  > > Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <waynel@i...> wrote:
                                  > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon"
                                  <Ginosko@H...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > In the beginning was the Torah (teaching), And the Torah
                                  was
                                  > with
                                  > > > > >God, and the Torah was God.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > MP
                                  > > > > > Penn
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > In the beginning was the Word, the Law, and the Word, the
                                  Law,
                                  > was
                                  > > > > one with God, the same Reality, the Word is, God, the Law.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > John rarely refers to the Law as a good thing. Jesus's mission
                                  > was to
                                  > > > replace the law with Love. A person that acts out of Love has
                                  no
                                  > need
                                  > > > for the law.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > At best, the Law is another emanation of the Word when applied
                                  > with
                                  > > > Love. Then it is Justice. At worst, it is a creation of the
                                  > Demiurge,
                                  > > > something that keeps us from God. When it is applied without
                                  Love,
                                  > > > this is the case. The Law exists, however, on a much lower
                                  level
                                  > than
                                  > > > the Word and God, as it can be used for good, evil, and benign
                                  > > > purposes.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                • lady_caritas
                                  ... than ... No problem, Pneumen, and I find your words (not ramblings) quite literate, thank you. :-) Apparently not much is known about Ptolemy. If you ll
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Oct 14, 2003
                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pneumen_borealis <no_reply@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Thanks for finishing that thought with a far more literate quote
                                    than
                                    > my ramblings. I did not know Ptolemy was a Valentinian.


                                    No problem, Pneumen, and I find your words (not ramblings) quite
                                    literate, thank you. :-)

                                    Apparently not much is known about Ptolemy. If you'll humor me, I'll
                                    just type another quote, this time from Bentley Layton's _The Gnostic
                                    Scriptures_, pages 277-78 ~

                                    "Ptolemy is reported to have been a leader of an `Italic' branch of
                                    the Valentinian school, and so scholars have often suggested that he
                                    taught in Rome. According to ancient report, he was one of
                                    Valentinus's first students. Because `Ptolemy' was a rare name at
                                    Rome, some scholars have identified him with the only Roman Christian
                                    intellectual of that name who is otherwise known in the period,
                                    Ptolemy the martyr (died ca. 152); this identification is
                                    controversial. The martyr Ptolemy is stated (by St. Justin Martyr,
                                    _Apology II_) to have been a Christian teacher; his death resulted
                                    from his efforts to convert a wealthy Roman matron to Christianity,
                                    which ultimately led to his denunciation before hostile Roman
                                    authorities."


                                    Cari
                                  • Mike Leavitt
                                    Hello lady_caritas ... Not impossible, as while Valentinians did not seek marterdom, they accepted it when thrust upon them. Who knows? Regards -- Mike
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Oct 15, 2003
                                      Hello lady_caritas

                                      On 14-Oct-03, you wrote:

                                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pneumen_borealis <no_reply@y...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      >> Thanks for finishing that thought with a far more literate quote
                                      > than
                                      >> my ramblings. I did not know Ptolemy was a Valentinian.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No problem, Pneumen, and I find your words (not ramblings) quite
                                      > literate, thank you. :-)
                                      >
                                      > Apparently not much is known about Ptolemy. If you'll humor me, I'll
                                      > just type another quote, this time from Bentley Layton's _The
                                      > Gnostic Scriptures_, pages 277-78 ~
                                      >
                                      > "Ptolemy is reported to have been a leader of an `Italic' branch of
                                      > the Valentinian school, and so scholars have often suggested that he
                                      > taught in Rome. According to ancient report, he was one of
                                      > Valentinus's first students. Because `Ptolemy' was a rare name at
                                      > Rome, some scholars have identified him with the only Roman
                                      > Christian intellectual of that name who is otherwise known in the
                                      > period, Ptolemy the martyr (died ca. 152); this identification is
                                      > controversial. The martyr Ptolemy is stated (by St. Justin Martyr,
                                      > _Apology II_) to have been a Christian teacher; his death resulted
                                      > from his efforts to convert a wealthy Roman matron to Christianity,
                                      > which ultimately led to his denunciation before hostile Roman
                                      > authorities."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Cari

                                      Not impossible, as while Valentinians did not seek marterdom, they
                                      accepted it when thrust upon them. Who knows?

                                      Regards
                                      --
                                      Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                    • lady_caritas
                                      ... ... I ll ... of ... he ... Christianity, ... Ptolemy. ;-) ~~~~~~~~~ Cari
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Oct 15, 2003
                                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                        > Hello lady_caritas
                                        >
                                        > On 14-Oct-03, you wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pneumen_borealis
                                        <no_reply@y...>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > >> Thanks for finishing that thought with a far more literate quote
                                        > > than
                                        > >> my ramblings. I did not know Ptolemy was a Valentinian.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > No problem, Pneumen, and I find your words (not ramblings) quite
                                        > > literate, thank you. :-)
                                        > >
                                        > > Apparently not much is known about Ptolemy. If you'll humor me,
                                        I'll
                                        > > just type another quote, this time from Bentley Layton's _The
                                        > > Gnostic Scriptures_, pages 277-78 ~
                                        > >
                                        > > "Ptolemy is reported to have been a leader of an `Italic' branch
                                        of
                                        > > the Valentinian school, and so scholars have often suggested that
                                        he
                                        > > taught in Rome. According to ancient report, he was one of
                                        > > Valentinus's first students. Because `Ptolemy' was a rare name at
                                        > > Rome, some scholars have identified him with the only Roman
                                        > > Christian intellectual of that name who is otherwise known in the
                                        > > period, Ptolemy the martyr (died ca. 152); this identification is
                                        > > controversial. The martyr Ptolemy is stated (by St. Justin Martyr,
                                        > > _Apology II_) to have been a Christian teacher; his death resulted
                                        > > from his efforts to convert a wealthy Roman matron to
                                        Christianity,
                                        > > which ultimately led to his denunciation before hostile Roman
                                        > > authorities."
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Cari
                                        >
                                        > Not impossible, as while Valentinians did not seek marterdom, they
                                        > accepted it when thrust upon them. Who knows?
                                        >


                                        Ptolemy. ;-)

                                        ~~~~~~~~~
                                        Cari
                                      • Wayne
                                        ... the ... When God Breathed into Man s nostrils what was breathed into mans nostrils? The Breath, pneuma, the Logos, the Word that is God, the Law, the
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Oct 24, 2003
                                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "elyon1234" <elyon1234@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > Penn,
                                          >
                                          > The reason that I list the John 1:1 as relating to pneumatic (air)
                                          > initiation is that we come to recognize the vibratory aspect of the
                                          > Logos within the body-mind through attention to the breath and its
                                          > source. We come to recognize the radiant aspect of the Logos in
                                          the
                                          > Spirit Baptism (fire) initiation and as Living Waters in the Nectar
                                          > (water) initiation and finally as the Rock in the earth initiation.
                                          >
                                          > The elemental initiations may have been reserved for the transition
                                          > from psychic to pneumatic standing. The initiations could also be
                                          > given in stages depending on the attainments of the initiates.
                                          >
                                          > The initiations gave the aspirant the practices necessary to
                                          > completely transcend the rational mind and receive direct
                                          > non-conceptual recognition of their true nature (Supreme Gnosis).
                                          >
                                          > ely




                                          When God Breathed into Man's nostrils what was breathed into mans
                                          nostrils?

                                          The Breath, pneuma, the Logos, the Word that is God, the Law, the
                                          Single True Nature of the Universe, The Spirit, the Nature of God
                                          was made manifest, a Living Soul.

                                          The Non-material, not of the dust of the Earth, of the air, pneuma,
                                          the Law, logos, The Spiritual Reality of First Cause alive in the
                                          Flesh, Free Will, Willfulness, the Freedom to act without cause,
                                          Infinite, Absolute, Boundlessness, Freedom of Mind, Free Will, the
                                          Freedom to do as you Will.

                                          Freedom from the Chaos of the Material World of Reality, the law of
                                          the Jungle, Evolutionary Determinism the Survival of the Fittest, ,
                                          to kill or be killed, Might is Right, Fatalism.
                                        • Ginosko
                                          MM Wayne Precisely. Twas the Ruach which is the Pneuma of the NT. Both of these carry with them the meaning of the Rational Soul , i.e. the ability to look
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Oct 26, 2003
                                            MM Wayne

                                            Precisely. Twas the Ruach which is the Pneuma of the NT. Both of these carry
                                            with them the meaning of the "Rational Soul", i.e. the ability to look back
                                            to the cause or rationalise. Or intellect as many don't like these days.
                                            This was what was brerathed into man to make him a "living soul", i.e. able
                                            to grow beyond his current state of understanding.

                                            MP
                                            Penn

                                            --
                                            The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw all
                                            things in God and God in all things

                                            Mechtild of Magdeburg



                                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "elyon1234" <elyon1234@y...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > Penn,
                                            > >
                                            > > The reason that I list the John 1:1 as relating to pneumatic (air)
                                            > > initiation is that we come to recognize the vibratory aspect of the
                                            > > Logos within the body-mind through attention to the breath and its
                                            > > source. We come to recognize the radiant aspect of the Logos in
                                            > the
                                            > > Spirit Baptism (fire) initiation and as Living Waters in the Nectar
                                            > > (water) initiation and finally as the Rock in the earth initiation.
                                            > >
                                            > > The elemental initiations may have been reserved for the transition
                                            > > from psychic to pneumatic standing. The initiations could also be
                                            > > given in stages depending on the attainments of the initiates.
                                            > >
                                            > > The initiations gave the aspirant the practices necessary to
                                            > > completely transcend the rational mind and receive direct
                                            > > non-conceptual recognition of their true nature (Supreme Gnosis).
                                            > >
                                            > > ely
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > When God Breathed into Man's nostrils what was breathed into mans
                                            > nostrils?
                                            >
                                            > The Breath, pneuma, the Logos, the Word that is God, the Law, the
                                            > Single True Nature of the Universe, The Spirit, the Nature of God
                                            > was made manifest, a Living Soul.
                                            >
                                            > The Non-material, not of the dust of the Earth, of the air, pneuma,
                                            > the Law, logos, The Spiritual Reality of First Cause alive in the
                                            > Flesh, Free Will, Willfulness, the Freedom to act without cause,
                                            > Infinite, Absolute, Boundlessness, Freedom of Mind, Free Will, the
                                            > Freedom to do as you Will.
                                            >
                                            > Freedom from the Chaos of the Material World of Reality, the law of
                                            > the Jungle, Evolutionary Determinism the Survival of the Fittest, ,
                                            > to kill or be killed, Might is Right, Fatalism.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • pmcvflag
                                            To put this into Gnostic context... which God was that who breathed... and for what reason? Are we talking about the soul or the spirit ? Was that breath
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Oct 26, 2003
                                              To put this into Gnostic context... which "God" was that who
                                              breathed... and for what reason? Are we talking about the "soul" or
                                              the "spirit"? Was that breath coaxed as a trick, or a gift intended
                                              by that God?

                                              Personal opinions in answer to this line of questions are welcome,
                                              but I ask that in answering they are tempered in contrast to the
                                              Gnostic texts on the subject (Quote a Gnostic source and tell us if
                                              you agree or disagree).

                                              PMCV

                                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                              > MM Wayne
                                              >
                                              > Precisely. Twas the Ruach which is the Pneuma of the NT. Both of
                                              these carry
                                              > with them the meaning of the "Rational Soul", i.e. the ability to
                                              look back
                                              > to the cause or rationalise. Or intellect as many don't like these
                                              days.
                                              > This was what was brerathed into man to make him a "living soul",
                                              i.e. able
                                              > to grow beyond his current state of understanding.
                                              >
                                              > MP
                                              > Penn
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw
                                              all
                                              > things in God and God in all things
                                              >
                                              > Mechtild of Magdeburg
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "elyon1234" <elyon1234@y...>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > > Penn,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The reason that I list the John 1:1 as relating to pneumatic
                                              (air)
                                              > > > initiation is that we come to recognize the vibratory aspect
                                              of the
                                              > > > Logos within the body-mind through attention to the breath and
                                              its
                                              > > > source. We come to recognize the radiant aspect of the Logos
                                              in
                                              > > the
                                              > > > Spirit Baptism (fire) initiation and as Living Waters in the
                                              Nectar
                                              > > > (water) initiation and finally as the Rock in the earth
                                              initiation.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The elemental initiations may have been reserved for the
                                              transition
                                              > > > from psychic to pneumatic standing. The initiations could also
                                              be
                                              > > > given in stages depending on the attainments of the initiates.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The initiations gave the aspirant the practices necessary to
                                              > > > completely transcend the rational mind and receive direct
                                              > > > non-conceptual recognition of their true nature (Supreme
                                              Gnosis).
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ely
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > When God Breathed into Man's nostrils what was breathed into mans
                                              > > nostrils?
                                              > >
                                              > > The Breath, pneuma, the Logos, the Word that is God, the Law, the
                                              > > Single True Nature of the Universe, The Spirit, the Nature of God
                                              > > was made manifest, a Living Soul.
                                              > >
                                              > > The Non-material, not of the dust of the Earth, of the air,
                                              pneuma,
                                              > > the Law, logos, The Spiritual Reality of First Cause alive in the
                                              > > Flesh, Free Will, Willfulness, the Freedom to act without cause,
                                              > > Infinite, Absolute, Boundlessness, Freedom of Mind, Free Will,
                                              the
                                              > > Freedom to do as you Will.
                                              > >
                                              > > Freedom from the Chaos of the Material World of Reality, the law
                                              of
                                              > > the Jungle, Evolutionary Determinism the Survival of the
                                              Fittest, ,
                                              > > to kill or be killed, Might is Right, Fatalism.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                            • incognito_lightbringer
                                              Both are responsible. The demiurge, and the higher God whose manifestation in the
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Oct 28, 2003
                                                <<To put this into Gnostic context... which "God" was that who
                                                breathed... >>

                                                Both are responsible. The demiurge, and the higher God whose
                                                manifestation in the material realm is Sophia.
                                                Otherwise known in orthodox Judaism as the Shekinnah, the presence of
                                                God in the world, feminine, and in exile (Gershom Scholem).
                                                Sophia is the bride of the Logos, that which is brought into the
                                                bridal chamber, that which is being restored. Apocryphon of John has
                                                Jesus saying "I am the Mother the Father and the Son".

                                                The demiurge wishes to create a facsimile of the upper man, the Adam
                                                Kadmon, which he glimpsed due to the power of the Mother within him.
                                                Motivation due to vanity and greed; the need to possess the
                                                perfection he'd seen. The demiurge creates pattern and order based on
                                                what he's seen above. What he creates, due to his limitations and
                                                ignorance, because he's imperfect himself, is itself imperfect. Now
                                                we have a curious thing going on in Tripartite Tractate. Because in
                                                that text the Logos is responsible for creating imperfect forms, and
                                                he repents of it. The Logos here is an upper Logos which begets
                                                a "perfect unity" the totalities, and "begets *himself* as a perfect
                                                unity", as well as the Logos which looks into the depths and doubts
                                                and the result is imperfect images which he repents of. By
                                                implication, the Logos is one with the Sophia that creates a mistake
                                                and falls into it, and Sophia is one with the demiurge that springs
                                                from her. Or at least linked if you don't like the "one" business.

                                                The man the demiurge creates is merely animate and not spiritual, and
                                                cannot sustain an independent existence. At this point, one can
                                                surmise that body and soul are in place, but not spirit. Apocryphon
                                                of John states that the psychic body was completed prior to the
                                                demiurge breathing into it. The psyche and the soul are, by my
                                                reading, the same thing.

                                                The demiurge is tricked into breathing his power into man by Sophia.
                                                She informs him this is the solution to his little problem of man.
                                                Which it is, but with unforseen consequences. Thus she's equally
                                                responsible for the breathing business. By breathing, the demiurge
                                                transfers the power he's stolen from Sophia in her fall, a power
                                                which is essentially the fallen stuff of the upper Godhead. He loses
                                                his own power by transferring it to man. By breathing, Sophia
                                                transfers the power she's lost to the demiurge into man. (and "by
                                                breathing" I mean to imply can also be starting the process rolling.
                                                It depends on how separate versus linked you view the demiurge and
                                                the fallen Sophia, another complicated can of worms. For example, in
                                                AoJ she's the spirit that hovers over the waters in the OT) By
                                                tricking the demiurge, she starts the process to enable her
                                                restoration. Now man becomes the thief and a vehicle for returning
                                                that which has been lost, breaking the power of the demiurge, and
                                                correcting the initial mistake. The cosmocrator, the world ruler, or
                                                Satan, does not want this. If this succeeds his own existence ceases.
                                                So now the devil wants your soul, because it holds the power he
                                                covets back, the spirit, and not because it's precious for itself.
                                                Satan being a facet of the demiurge, either demiurge post
                                                breath/loss, or the demiurge/Ialdeboath post Saboath upheaval. Or
                                                else a byproduct/creation of the demiurge. Differs depending on what
                                                you read.

                                                And thus the crux of the matter. Or else, as Ernst liked to put
                                                it, "worldview". Do you view this world as a fall and mistake?
                                                Gnostic texts seem to. (Any dispute welcome, just back it up with
                                                gnostic text.) And what's to become of the divine feminine? This
                                                world can't exist with Sophia. Is she to be restored, which means a
                                                destruction of the material world. Or is she to remain here and be
                                                worshipped as the basis for material creation? Which would preserve
                                                the material world and ourselves in its current form,
                                                body/soul/spirit and light mixed with dark and separation and
                                                individuality. Well, Sophia seems to have a mind of her own. And
                                                early Christianity, gnostic Christianity, is certainly hell bent on
                                                the destruction of the world.

                                                Interestingly, and this took me awhile
                                                to realize, there seem to be two separate groups, both calling
                                                themselves gnostic. Apparently everyone wants to be a knower. And
                                                they have diametrically opposite philosophies of the dilemma I
                                                call "What's to become of poor Sophia"? Which would be a good title
                                                for a play should anyone wish to write it. Whether it's a comedy or
                                                tragedy is your choosing.


                                                <<and for what reason? Are we talking about the "soul" or
                                                the "spirit"?>>

                                                Spirit is breathed into man. The soul is an animate non-spiritual
                                                holder.
                                                The soul is still a manifestation of the material existence/lower
                                                creation. I interpret the soul as linked to the lower mind or
                                                knowledge, versus the upper mind, or spiritual understanding.
                                                Pistis Sophia states the soul is a piece of crap, and the trickery of
                                                the archons to retain power. In other texts it's stated the soul can
                                                only be saved by turning from matter to spirit (both Nag Hammadi and
                                                the NT). Thus, the soul is a sort of midway point, a battle ground.
                                                It can mire spirit in matter, or it can free spirit and thus save
                                                itself. Depending on what you choose. The salvation of the soul would
                                                imply a perfection of the psychic realm in some other existence,
                                                although the material one seems doomed for destruction. A place where
                                                the repentant aspect of the demiurge is to reside, if the demiurge
                                                himself is animate, like soul, and not spiritual (Ireneaus).
                                                Eventually that too will run its course and be destroyed when
                                                everything folds back up to the original source.

                                                <<Was that breath coaxed as a trick, or a gift intended
                                                by that God?>>

                                                Both, again.
                                                There's dualistic aspects to interpreting the myth, the writings, as
                                                well as to our existence.
                                                A trick by the demiurge to possess a perfection he's seen and is
                                                jealous of, a gift to that which he creates, albeit a foolish one
                                                with consequences he certainly didn't intend and later regretted. A
                                                trick by Sophia to break the power of the demiurge, a gift to man
                                                whereby he becomes the means of restoring that which is lost. And the
                                                key here is that without that which is lost, man simply isn't Man.
                                                He's merely animate, flopping around in the mud, and unable to
                                                sustain an existence. Thus, what really is "Man"?

                                                I'm too busy to go pull up exact quotes, but Nag Hammadi has several
                                                versions of the creation myth; The Apocryphon of John, Origin of the
                                                World, Hypostatis of the Archons are some. Also, doing a search
                                                on "soul" on the gnosis.org site can bring up numerous references to
                                                its metaphysics.


                                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                                > To put this into Gnostic context... which "God" was that who
                                                > breathed... and for what reason? Are we talking about the "soul" or
                                                > the "spirit"? Was that breath coaxed as a trick, or a gift intended
                                                > by that God?
                                                >
                                                > Personal opinions in answer to this line of questions are welcome,
                                                > but I ask that in answering they are tempered in contrast to the
                                                > Gnostic texts on the subject (Quote a Gnostic source and tell us if
                                                > you agree or disagree).
                                                >
                                                > PMCV
                                                >
                                                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                                > > MM Wayne
                                                > >
                                                > > Precisely. Twas the Ruach which is the Pneuma of the NT. Both of
                                                > these carry
                                                > > with them the meaning of the "Rational Soul", i.e. the ability to
                                                > look back
                                                > > to the cause or rationalise. Or intellect as many don't like
                                                these
                                                > days.
                                                > > This was what was brerathed into man to make him a "living soul",
                                                > i.e. able
                                                > > to grow beyond his current state of understanding.
                                                > >
                                                > > MP
                                                > > Penn
                                                > >
                                                > > --
                                                > > The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I
                                                saw
                                                > all
                                                > > things in God and God in all things
                                                > >
                                                > > Mechtild of Magdeburg
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "elyon1234" <elyon1234@y...>
                                                > > > wrote:
                                                > > > > Penn,
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The reason that I list the John 1:1 as relating to pneumatic
                                                > (air)
                                                > > > > initiation is that we come to recognize the vibratory aspect
                                                > of the
                                                > > > > Logos within the body-mind through attention to the breath
                                                and
                                                > its
                                                > > > > source. We come to recognize the radiant aspect of the Logos
                                                > in
                                                > > > the
                                                > > > > Spirit Baptism (fire) initiation and as Living Waters in the
                                                > Nectar
                                                > > > > (water) initiation and finally as the Rock in the earth
                                                > initiation.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The elemental initiations may have been reserved for the
                                                > transition
                                                > > > > from psychic to pneumatic standing. The initiations could
                                                also
                                                > be
                                                > > > > given in stages depending on the attainments of the initiates.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The initiations gave the aspirant the practices necessary to
                                                > > > > completely transcend the rational mind and receive direct
                                                > > > > non-conceptual recognition of their true nature (Supreme
                                                > Gnosis).
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > ely
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > When God Breathed into Man's nostrils what was breathed into
                                                mans
                                                > > > nostrils?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The Breath, pneuma, the Logos, the Word that is God, the Law,
                                                the
                                                > > > Single True Nature of the Universe, The Spirit, the Nature of
                                                God
                                                > > > was made manifest, a Living Soul.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The Non-material, not of the dust of the Earth, of the air,
                                                > pneuma,
                                                > > > the Law, logos, The Spiritual Reality of First Cause alive in
                                                the
                                                > > > Flesh, Free Will, Willfulness, the Freedom to act without cause,
                                                > > > Infinite, Absolute, Boundlessness, Freedom of Mind, Free Will,
                                                > the
                                                > > > Freedom to do as you Will.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Freedom from the Chaos of the Material World of Reality, the
                                                law
                                                > of
                                                > > > the Jungle, Evolutionary Determinism the Survival of the
                                                > Fittest, ,
                                                > > > to kill or be killed, Might is Right, Fatalism.
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                              • Ginosko
                                                MM PMCV Tis fine to temper them with the Gnostic texts, but know also that each will temper them with their own cultural, language, and personal
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Nov 1, 2003
                                                  MM PMCV

                                                  Tis fine to temper them with the Gnostic texts, but know also that each will
                                                  temper them with their own cultural, language, and personal interpretations
                                                  as well.

                                                  Not to mention the varying traditions in the NHL that interpreted
                                                  differently as well.

                                                  And also that the Jewish God is but a conglomeration of two earlier Sumerian
                                                  Gods, Enki and Enlil.

                                                  Some of the texts have the demiurge as the one who created man in the NHL.
                                                  Others have him as merely blind to the fact that he did no creating at all.
                                                  Obviosly those who favour the creation by the demiurge favour the
                                                  Valentinian exposition over the other docs or the interpretaion is used to
                                                  colour the way they see the others.

                                                  Now I'll ask you, who sent the flood, the plagues, etc. Was it Enki or
                                                  Enlil?


                                                  Tis the same God of the Pistis Sophia, i.e. the mirror image that we see,
                                                  i.e.

                                                  "The Lord of the Universe is not called 'Father', but 'Forefather', the
                                                  beginning of those that will appear, but he (the Lord) is the beginningless
                                                  Forefather. Seeing himself within himself in a mirror, he appeared
                                                  resembling himself, but his likeness appeared as Divine Self-Father, and
                                                  <as> Confronter over the Confronted ones, First Existent Unbegotten Father.
                                                  He is indeed of equal age <with> the Light that is before him, but he is not
                                                  equal to him in power...... "

                                                  This image here is the demiurge and is but the image of the forefather.

                                                  MP
                                                  Penn

                                                  --
                                                  Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self.

                                                  Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra 214



                                                  > To put this into Gnostic context... which "God" was that who
                                                  > breathed... and for what reason? Are we talking about the "soul" or
                                                  > the "spirit"? Was that breath coaxed as a trick, or a gift intended
                                                  > by that God?
                                                  >
                                                  > Personal opinions in answer to this line of questions are welcome,
                                                  > but I ask that in answering they are tempered in contrast to the
                                                  > Gnostic texts on the subject (Quote a Gnostic source and tell us if
                                                  > you agree or disagree).
                                                  >
                                                  > PMCV
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                                  > > MM Wayne
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Precisely. Twas the Ruach which is the Pneuma of the NT. Both of
                                                  > these carry
                                                  > > with them the meaning of the "Rational Soul", i.e. the ability to
                                                  > look back
                                                  > > to the cause or rationalise. Or intellect as many don't like these
                                                  > days.
                                                  > > This was what was brerathed into man to make him a "living soul",
                                                  > i.e. able
                                                  > > to grow beyond his current state of understanding.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > MP
                                                  > > Penn
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --
                                                  > > The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw
                                                  > all
                                                  > > things in God and God in all things
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Mechtild of Magdeburg
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "elyon1234" <elyon1234@y...>
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  > > > > Penn,
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The reason that I list the John 1:1 as relating to pneumatic
                                                  > (air)
                                                  > > > > initiation is that we come to recognize the vibratory aspect
                                                  > of the
                                                  > > > > Logos within the body-mind through attention to the breath and
                                                  > its
                                                  > > > > source. We come to recognize the radiant aspect of the Logos
                                                  > in
                                                  > > > the
                                                  > > > > Spirit Baptism (fire) initiation and as Living Waters in the
                                                  > Nectar
                                                  > > > > (water) initiation and finally as the Rock in the earth
                                                  > initiation.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The elemental initiations may have been reserved for the
                                                  > transition
                                                  > > > > from psychic to pneumatic standing. The initiations could also
                                                  > be
                                                  > > > > given in stages depending on the attainments of the initiates.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The initiations gave the aspirant the practices necessary to
                                                  > > > > completely transcend the rational mind and receive direct
                                                  > > > > non-conceptual recognition of their true nature (Supreme
                                                  > Gnosis).
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > ely
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > When God Breathed into Man's nostrils what was breathed into mans
                                                  > > > nostrils?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > The Breath, pneuma, the Logos, the Word that is God, the Law, the
                                                  > > > Single True Nature of the Universe, The Spirit, the Nature of God
                                                  > > > was made manifest, a Living Soul.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > The Non-material, not of the dust of the Earth, of the air,
                                                  > pneuma,
                                                  > > > the Law, logos, The Spiritual Reality of First Cause alive in the
                                                  > > > Flesh, Free Will, Willfulness, the Freedom to act without cause,
                                                  > > > Infinite, Absolute, Boundlessness, Freedom of Mind, Free Will,
                                                  > the
                                                  > > > Freedom to do as you Will.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Freedom from the Chaos of the Material World of Reality, the law
                                                  > of
                                                  > > > the Jungle, Evolutionary Determinism the Survival of the
                                                  > Fittest, ,
                                                  > > > to kill or be killed, Might is Right, Fatalism.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Paul Kieniewicz
                                                  Hi I thought that some of you might be interested in this review of David Lindsay s A Voyage to Arcturus . http://www.scifidimensions.com/Nov03/arcturus.htm
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Nov 2, 2003
                                                    Hi
                                                     
                                                    I thought that some of you might be interested in this review of  David Lindsay's "A Voyage to Arcturus" .
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    While this isn't classic gnosticism, the novel, published orriginally in 1920 appears to be heavily influenced by gnostic writings --- at least whatever was available then. I reccommend the book to anyone interested in the gnostic message.
                                                     
                                                    Paul
                                                     


                                                    Author of "Immortality Machine"
                                                    Visit Planet Erda at http://www.PlanetErda.com


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