Libertine ritual (questions from Peter)
>>>PMCV, I do understand how flawed a source Irenaeus is, is that thereason that you are discounting the use of sperm and menses by the
It would seem curious to assume that because the enemies of the
Gnostics accuse them of this that it was not true. Was this based on
a misinterpretation of a text/texts by the accusers? Is this a
My reasoning is simply that these fluids have been and are used as
the highest form of sacrament in a variety of traditions and your
answer seems to be a very firm NO. So, my question is simply why not?
Hey Peter, Cari got me exactly on this one. I am not saying that such
a thing could not possibly have existed anywhere in the entire
hellenistic world.... perhaps even in some small unknown sect
of "Gnostics". I am saying that it is unlikely, but not that it is
To add to this, I am also saying that the specific charges against
specific groups that people like Irenaeus have leveled have not stood
up to critical inquiry, which leaves us in a particular spot.... it
leaves us with no accusations. Lady Cari's list of posts will recount
much of this for you, but let me also recap it in my own way.
Imagine this.... pretend I am writing an attack on Christianity. So,
I go pick up the Christian "New Testement" and I read the part about
the Eucharist. I take the "this is my body.... this is my blood" and
I say "Christians are cannibals, and they must be stopped". I then
take a common urban myth about scary sects that kill babies, and also
have sex rituals that include a dog... and I conclude that Christians
are that sect, so they also use a dog in a sex ritual... not based on
anything I read, but based on the connection I make through the
sacrifice and eating of humans. This was the method that Irenaeus
used against the Gnostics, and the method that some Romans actually
used against Christians when they accused them of Cannibalism. Even
more telling, some of the lists of accusations are repeated, almost
verbatum, in so many sources of the time against so many people that
we KNOW were not guilty, that eventually there is simply no substance
to even entertain the possibility.
Is it theorhetically possible that some Christians somewhere really
did kill and eat humans based on the ritual of the eurcharist? Sure,
we can always say it is theorhetically possible... and maybe someday
we will find some evidence. Without that evidence though, we
currently have no good reason to speculate on the possibility. In
fact, if it really did happen it is far more likely that it was a
later sect that was trying to recreate some form of "Christianity"
based on the account given by the Roman accuser. By the same token,
if such a thing ever happened in a "Gnostic" sect, it probably
happens with a much later group attempting to recreate Gnosticism
based on the accounts of Christian accusers.
- Dorie Celestia wrote:
> Hello Everyone,There is more evidence that Valentinus lived than that Jesus did, yet
> I just joined this group hoping to fill in some of the "gaps" in my
> developing cosmology. I grew up in mainstream religion and just 6
> years ago broke away, and have been "spiritual but not religious" all
> this time. I finally dropped everything and decided to go within and
> see what I believe in my innermost being. After that, I began to
> search the web to see if there were any others who think like I do "in
> there", and lo and behold, I find the Gnostic writings to be very much
> in agreement.
> What I haven't decided yet is whether the figures in these writings
> are literal historical figures or not. I was not to question their
> historicity in mainstream religion, of course, but now I'm free to
> think for myself and read all sorts of things that cast doubt on it.
> These people in the gospels coincide exactly with Astrotheology, the
> study of the Zodiac for spiritual purposes, but I also understand and
> believe that it's not so much whether there is someone "in the flesh"
> delivering the message, as the spirit of the message itself. Has
> anyone else grappled with this and how did you resolve it? Right now,
> I could go either way, and usually do! Does anyone know of resources
> where there has been proof found for the authenticity of these gospel
> figures? Has Kersey Graves' books been discussed here? I have read
> them, and not sure what to think anyway about the actuality of the
> people involved.
> Very best regards,
when we consider the Gospel of Truth, well he might have written it but
that is no means certain.