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Re: Hiram Key

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  • ariaksatri2
    ... bring ... feel ... Jesus ... two pillars , ... authors ... passing ... doubt ... support ... Yes, and I hope I too wasn t reducing the authors thesis too
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 1, 2003
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
      > Hello ariaksatri2
      >
      > On 31-Aug-03, you wrote:
      >
      > > Greetings:
      > >
      > > On another list, we had been recently discussing the book, "The
      > > Hiram Key"--but it somewhat died out; nonetheless, I wanted to
      bring
      > > it up here, particularly because the authors often make use of the
      > > Gnostic scriptures to support their position...a use which I do
      feel
      > > really fits the bill. Specifically, the authors conclude that
      Jesus
      > > and James were brothers, members of the Essenes, who wanted to
      > > literally establish "The Kingdom of Heaven" on Earth, as something
      > > of a utopia. Now, to achieve this, "Israel" required
      two "pillars",
      > > a priestly and regal--a tradition from Egypt, and passing into
      > > Freemasonry (again, very literalist and socio-political in
      > > interpretation). At any rate, since the Gnostic scriptures often
      > > mention that ressurection must take place BEFORE death, the
      authors
      > > link this to the secret practices of the Essenes, and again
      passing
      > > to Masonry.
      > > I don't doubt that such ressurection Rites were part of all these
      > > Traditions (in fact, they seem nearly universal); I do however
      doubt
      > > that the entire corpus of Gnostic literature can be used to
      support
      > > a historical theory that the *real* teachings of Jesus were
      > > exclusively humanistic, rationalist in nature.
      >
      > Yes, but reductionism knows no bounds. :-(
      >
      > Regards
      > --
      > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...

      Yes, and I hope I too wasn't reducing the authors' thesis too much,
      as a summary!
      I really would also like to hear the founder of this group, PMCV, who
      I've know for sometime, and consider quite versatile with the Nag
      literature, as well as early Christianity, to reply with his
      contectual undrstanding. I DO see the authors' point relating to the
      Israelite desire for Messianic leadership as a literal king, but
      wonder about the scope of this leadership.
    • pmcvflag
      ... as a summary! I really would also like to hear the founder of this group, PMCV, who I ve know for sometime, and consider quite versatile with the Nag
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 5, 2003
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        >>Yes, and I hope I too wasn't reducing the authors' thesis too much,
        as a summary! I really would also like to hear the founder of this
        group, PMCV, who I've know for sometime, and consider quite versatile
        with the Nag literature, as well as early Christianity, to reply with
        his contectual undrstanding. I DO see the authors' point relating to
        the Israelite desire for Messianic leadership as a literal king, but
        wonder about the scope of this leadership.<<

        Hey, Ariaksatri. To start with, let me point out that there are
        actually three founders here in the club... just for the record.

        Anyways, you ask my opinion. To be honest, I have never read this
        book and cannot comment on specific points, or give you a over all
        review. I can only comment on the basic premise as you outlined it,
        and in that area I would have to express some skepticism. I can try
        to take a look at the book, if you like, but perhaps you could
        comment on the specific passages that you found compelling, I mean
        the Gnostic passages.

        I can say, I have serious doubts that the Freemasons existed before
        the 1600s, and theories that attempt to trace them back in the
        distant past tend to raise my eyebrows. Nothing is impossible, but a
        book that truely exposed such a connection would probably get quite a
        bit of serious academic attention.... though not necessarily. I am
        even less convinced that the Freemasons are in any way "Gnostic".

        The notion that Jesus and James were brothers is not specific to this
        book.

        Massianic movements attempting to establish the theocratic utopia as
        a point of Jewish revelation were very common at the time of Jesus,
        and it is possible that Jesus fits this bill... it would also mean,
        however, that Jesus was not Gnostic. The Gnostic concept of Jesus is
        most definately not the returned King of the Jewish scripture. One
        would then wonder the point of using Gnostic scriptures to prove that
        Jesus was not Gnostic.

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ariaksatri2 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
        > > Hello ariaksatri2
        > >
        > > On 31-Aug-03, you wrote:
        > >
        > > > Greetings:
        > > >
        > > > On another list, we had been recently discussing the book, "The
        > > > Hiram Key"--but it somewhat died out; nonetheless, I wanted to
        > bring
        > > > it up here, particularly because the authors often make use of
        the
        > > > Gnostic scriptures to support their position...a use which I do
        > feel
        > > > really fits the bill. Specifically, the authors conclude that
        > Jesus
        > > > and James were brothers, members of the Essenes, who wanted to
        > > > literally establish "The Kingdom of Heaven" on Earth, as
        something
        > > > of a utopia. Now, to achieve this, "Israel" required
        > two "pillars",
        > > > a priestly and regal--a tradition from Egypt, and passing into
        > > > Freemasonry (again, very literalist and socio-political in
        > > > interpretation). At any rate, since the Gnostic scriptures often
        > > > mention that ressurection must take place BEFORE death, the
        > authors
        > > > link this to the secret practices of the Essenes, and again
        > passing
        > > > to Masonry.
        > > > I don't doubt that such ressurection Rites were part of all
        these
        > > > Traditions (in fact, they seem nearly universal); I do however
        > doubt
        > > > that the entire corpus of Gnostic literature can be used to
        > support
        > > > a historical theory that the *real* teachings of Jesus were
        > > > exclusively humanistic, rationalist in nature.
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