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Re: jesus incarnation?

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  • Gerry
    ... life, ... follow........ ... of ... disagree ... Judaism ... anything ... I ll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are repairing my roof
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
      > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
      > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
      life,
      > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
      > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
      > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
      > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
      follow........
      >
      > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its degradation
      of
      > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
      disagree
      > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the demiurge, a
      > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
      Judaism
      > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
      anything
      > but evil.......
      >
      > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the Jewish
      > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
      > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....



      I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are repairing
      my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
      guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to fall
      through my ceiling. LOL

      Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than it
      does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards to
      these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
      Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
      them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
      support and guidance, there are countless others from each of those
      faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
      religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those who,
      feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
      have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite their
      enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
      terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others leads
      people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
      evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
      the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst the
      debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
      Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced to
      the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
      becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the stakes
      are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch money
      or protection of one's turf.

      If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking out
      the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left with
      a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view of
      the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one would
      have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is often
      equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
      benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
      lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond that
      notion of a personal god.

      Gerry
    • Don Tipton
      Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton) I m replying to your post as a new member, forgive me if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective of my
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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        Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)

        I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive me
        if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
        of my reply.

        I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
        Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
        I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
        District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
        work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under our
        constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
        to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
        am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs as
        a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)

        I've been to every continent during my military occupation years,
        and have written three books that are currently advertised on
        amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
        of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
        I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
        social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
        instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
        history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
        the region.

        Now to my reply to your post:
        RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
        Gnostics:
        As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
        Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
        in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained the
        Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
        prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
        Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
        from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
        Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
        yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
        a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of Shur)

        Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
        re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
        spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
        history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.

        The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of Israel
        and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
        sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
        limited.

        Best Regards,

        Don




        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
        wrote:
        > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
        > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
        a
        > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
        > life,
        > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
        felt
        > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
        read
        > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
        i'm
        > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
        > follow........
        > >
        > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
        degradation
        > of
        > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
        > disagree
        > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
        demiurge, a
        > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
        > Judaism
        > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
        > anything
        > > but evil.......
        > >
        > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
        Jewish
        > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
        > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
        >
        >
        >
        > I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are
        repairing
        > my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
        > guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to
        fall
        > through my ceiling. LOL
        >
        > Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than
        it
        > does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards
        to
        > these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
        > Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
        > them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
        > support and guidance, there are countless others from each of
        those
        > faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
        > religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those
        who,
        > feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
        > have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite
        their
        > enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
        > terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others
        leads
        > people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
        > evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
        > the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst
        the
        > debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
        > Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced
        to
        > the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
        > becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the
        stakes
        > are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch
        money
        > or protection of one's turf.
        >
        > If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking
        out
        > the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left
        with
        > a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view
        of
        > the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one
        would
        > have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is
        often
        > equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
        > benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
        > lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond
        that
        > notion of a personal god.
        >
        > Gerry
      • pmcvflag
        To respond to this post in a way that is relevent to the club, let me first point out that any historical analysis concerning Moses is speculative at best,
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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          To respond to this post in a way that is relevent to the club, let me
          first point out that any "historical" analysis concerning Moses is
          speculative at best, at worst it runs the risk of falling into "Holy
          Blood Holy Grail" kind of sensationalism. Of course, the real
          question is how this pertains to Gnosticism.....

          Let me then include my response to Sarutobi

          Antisemitism is not a Gnostic principle. Many of the early Gnostics
          were Jews, and Gnosticism is, itself, a Jewish Hellenic syncratism.
          If Dr Pearson's historical speculations are correct, then the early
          Sethian movement can be placed firmly in the category of "Jewish
          sect".

          I would also point out to Sarutobi, that some modern forms of Judism
          have a notion of "Demiurge" as well. The Kabbalah does not see it's
          prime source, called "En Soph", as the same as it's physical world
          molder, called "Metatron".

          We really must be careful how we categorize Gnosticism in it's
          relation to Judism, there is a lot of misinformation out there.

          PMCV

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Don Tipton" <gizzard2003@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)
          >
          > I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive
          me
          > if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
          > of my reply.
          >
          > I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
          > Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
          > I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
          > District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
          > work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under
          our
          > constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
          > to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
          > am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs
          as
          > a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)
          >
          > I've been to every continent during my military occupation
          years,
          > and have written three books that are currently advertised on
          > amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
          > of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
          > I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
          > social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
          > instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
          > history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
          > the region.
          >
          > Now to my reply to your post:
          > RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
          > Gnostics:
          > As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
          > Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
          > in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained
          the
          > Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
          > prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
          > Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
          > from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
          > Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
          > yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
          > a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of
          Shur)
          >
          > Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
          > re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
          > spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
          > history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.
          >
          > The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of
          Israel
          > and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
          > sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
          > limited.
          >
          > Best Regards,
          >
          > Don
        • pmcvflag
          Sarutobi You state.... i ve read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i m really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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            Sarutobi

            You state....

            "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
            truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
            follow"

            The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
            Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you are
            looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.

            There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the way
            it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
            the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
            you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
            do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are viewing
            Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
            meant to over-ride.

            You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to look
            in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
            though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of the
            myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
            perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
            you have.

            This, of course, is a seperate topic.

            PMCV
          • walkinginclogs@aol.com
            Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or did they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had problems
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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              Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or did
              they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had
              problems with the fact that it said that God had the Israelites kill out the
              residents of the Promised Land, in order to make room for them. It said his reason
              was that they worshipped false gods. But were they even given a chance to know
              who the true God was? Sounds much like what we did to the American Indians.
            • Penndragon
              MM Sarutobi496 Gnosticism itself doesn t degrade the Jewish God. However many Gnostics have come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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                MM Sarutobi496

                Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many Gnostics have
                come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a misinterpretation of
                the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind following of
                the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic texts have
                YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who mistakenly thought
                he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for pronouncing
                himself as such.

                MP
                Penn

                --
                The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of life,
                > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and follow........
                >
                > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its degradation of
                > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally disagree
                > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the demiurge, a
                > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with Judaism
                > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is anything
                > but evil.......
                >
                > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the Jewish
                > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                > >
                > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help
                > if
                > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning Gnosticism,
                > that
                > > is.
                > >
                > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not see
                > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                > assume
                > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase could
                > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                > >
                > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say, you
                > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't think
                > that
                > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                > knows.
                > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an interesting
                > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish to
                > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                > >
                > > PMCV
                > >
                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                > pretty
                > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                > > quickly,
                > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as God-
                > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                > Father
                > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she also
                > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                > > >
                > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                > > incarnate,
                > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he was
                > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what orthadox
                > > > churches say ;)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Penndragon
                MM Don Actually it doesn t make for a false religion. Judaic in the sense of the Jewish people of which Arron was supposed to be. So in this sense the
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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                  MM Don

                  Actually it doesn't make for a false religion. Judaic in the sense of the
                  Jewish people of which Arron was supposed to be. So in this sense the
                  preisthood of Arron is still a judaic preisthood. However another point is
                  that Moses and Arron as they appear in the bible seem to be purely
                  allegorical characters, i.e. they never existed in real life.

                  MP
                  Penn

                  --
                  The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                  so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                  Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa



                  > Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)
                  >
                  > I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive me
                  > if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
                  > of my reply.
                  >
                  > I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
                  > Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
                  > I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
                  > District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
                  > work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under our
                  > constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
                  > to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
                  > am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs as
                  > a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)
                  >
                  > I've been to every continent during my military occupation years,
                  > and have written three books that are currently advertised on
                  > amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
                  > of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
                  > I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
                  > social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
                  > instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
                  > history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
                  > the region.
                  >
                  > Now to my reply to your post:
                  > RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
                  > Gnostics:
                  > As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
                  > Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
                  > in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained the
                  > Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
                  > prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
                  > Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
                  > from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
                  > Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
                  > yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
                  > a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of Shur)
                  >
                  > Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
                  > re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
                  > spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
                  > history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.
                  >
                  > The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of Israel
                  > and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
                  > sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
                  > limited.
                  >
                  > Best Regards,
                  >
                  > Don
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                  > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                  > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                  > a
                  > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                  > > life,
                  > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                  > felt
                  > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                  > read
                  > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                  > i'm
                  > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                  > > follow........
                  > > >
                  > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                  > degradation
                  > > of
                  > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                  > > disagree
                  > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                  > demiurge, a
                  > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                  > > Judaism
                  > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                  > > anything
                  > > > but evil.......
                  > > >
                  > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                  > Jewish
                  > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                  > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are
                  > repairing
                  > > my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
                  > > guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to
                  > fall
                  > > through my ceiling. LOL
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than
                  > it
                  > > does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards
                  > to
                  > > these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
                  > > Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
                  > > them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
                  > > support and guidance, there are countless others from each of
                  > those
                  > > faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
                  > > religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those
                  > who,
                  > > feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
                  > > have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite
                  > their
                  > > enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
                  > > terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others
                  > leads
                  > > people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
                  > > evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
                  > > the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst
                  > the
                  > > debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
                  > > Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced
                  > to
                  > > the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
                  > > becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the
                  > stakes
                  > > are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch
                  > money
                  > > or protection of one's turf.
                  > >
                  > > If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking
                  > out
                  > > the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left
                  > with
                  > > a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view
                  > of
                  > > the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one
                  > would
                  > > have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is
                  > often
                  > > equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
                  > > benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
                  > > lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond
                  > that
                  > > notion of a personal god.
                  > >
                  > > Gerry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Penndragon
                  MM PMCV And then there s the ole how have I interpreted what I ve read bit. Many factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we interepret in
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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                    MM PMCV

                    And then there's the ole how have I interpreted what I've read bit. Many
                    factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we interepret
                    in a way which we want to interpret rather than what was intended to be
                    said.

                    MP
                    Penn

                    --
                    The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                    so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                    Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                    > Sarutobi
                    >
                    > You state....
                    >
                    > "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                    > truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                    > follow"
                    >
                    > The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
                    > Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you are
                    > looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.
                    >
                    > There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the way
                    > it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
                    > the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
                    > you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
                    > do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are viewing
                    > Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
                    > meant to over-ride.
                    >
                    > You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to look
                    > in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
                    > though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of the
                    > myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
                    > perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
                    > you have.
                    >
                    > This, of course, is a seperate topic.
                    >
                    > PMCV
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Penndragon
                    MM my friend No, I don t think they were ever slaves there. Unwanted immigrants maybe. My understanding is that the entire bible is a set of allegories and not
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
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                      MM my friend

                      No, I don't think they were ever slaves there. Unwanted immigrants maybe. My
                      understanding is that the entire bible is a set of allegories and not
                      literal history.

                      MP
                      Penn

                      --
                      The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                      so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                      Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                      > Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or
                      did
                      > they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had
                      > problems with the fact that it said that God had the Israelites kill out
                      the
                      > residents of the Promised Land, in order to make room for them. It said
                      his reason
                      > was that they worshipped false gods. But were they even given a chance to
                      know
                      > who the true God was? Sounds much like what we did to the American
                      Indians.
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • sarutobi496
                      in reply to all the historians out there who claim they know about Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)), the Jewish people have
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
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                        in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know" about
                        Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                        the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                        of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                        in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.

                        there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the Jewish
                        Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                        conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived it......its
                        actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                        the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.

                        i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                        people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                        fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                        research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                        and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                        mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                        gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                        the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                        gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                        gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                        instead of downright anti-yahwehism......

                        perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                        Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                        civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                        to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                        mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all those
                        surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the Torah
                        is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                        to think about ;)


                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                        wrote:
                        > MM Sarutobi496
                        >
                        > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                        Gnostics have
                        > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                        misinterpretation of
                        > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                        following of
                        > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                        texts have
                        > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                        mistakenly thought
                        > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                        pronouncing
                        > himself as such.
                        >
                        > MP
                        > Penn
                        >
                        > --
                        > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                        in it; and
                        > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                        >
                        > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                        >
                        >
                        > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                        > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                        > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                        life,
                        > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                        > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                        > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                        > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                        follow........
                        > >
                        > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                        degradation of
                        > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                        disagree
                        > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                        demiurge, a
                        > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                        Judaism
                        > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                        anything
                        > > but evil.......
                        > >
                        > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                        Jewish
                        > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                        > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                        > > >
                        > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                        help
                        > > if
                        > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                        Gnosticism,
                        > > that
                        > > > is.
                        > > >
                        > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                        see
                        > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                        > > assume
                        > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                        could
                        > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                        > > >
                        > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say,
                        you
                        > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                        think
                        > > that
                        > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                        > > knows.
                        > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                        interesting
                        > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish
                        to
                        > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                        > > >
                        > > > PMCV
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                        > > pretty
                        > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                        > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                        > > > quickly,
                        > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                        > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as
                        God-
                        > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                        > > Father
                        > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she
                        also
                        > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                        > > > incarnate,
                        > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                        > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he
                        was
                        > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                        orthadox
                        > > > > churches say ;)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > >
                      • pmcvflag
                        Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the Old Religion , and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a completely modern invention
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
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                          Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old Religion",
                          and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                          completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954), and
                          almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                          beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are fully
                          aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a history
                          that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the Templars,
                          or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started as a
                          medieval craft guild.

                          Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                          misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                          including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                          (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they have
                          no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.

                          On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish people,
                          just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely admit
                          that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value. Dont
                          misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                          it's value is not on the literal level.

                          We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that is a
                          primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the club
                          is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                          shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                          inductive leaps.

                          Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively, and
                          it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the Demiurge in
                          a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                          over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are missing
                          the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                          about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                          position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that have
                          him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                          saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                          this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                          Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                          which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.

                          PMCV

                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                          about
                          > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                          > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                          > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                          > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                          >
                          > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                          Jewish
                          > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                          > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                          it......its
                          > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                          > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                          >
                          > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                          > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                          > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                          > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                          > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                          > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                          > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                          > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                          > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                          > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                          > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                          >
                          > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                          > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                          > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                          > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                          > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                          those
                          > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                          Torah
                          > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                          > to think about ;)
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > MM Sarutobi496
                          > >
                          > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                          > Gnostics have
                          > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                          > misinterpretation of
                          > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                          > following of
                          > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                          > texts have
                          > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                          > mistakenly thought
                          > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                          > pronouncing
                          > > himself as such.
                          > >
                          > > MP
                          > > Penn
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                          > in it; and
                          > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                          > >
                          > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                          > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                          a
                          > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                          > life,
                          > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                          felt
                          > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                          read
                          > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                          i'm
                          > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                          > follow........
                          > > >
                          > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                          > degradation of
                          > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                          > disagree
                          > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                          > demiurge, a
                          > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                          > Judaism
                          > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                          > anything
                          > > > but evil.......
                          > > >
                          > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                          > Jewish
                          > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                          > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                          > help
                          > > > if
                          > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                          > Gnosticism,
                          > > > that
                          > > > > is.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                          > see
                          > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                          > > > assume
                          > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                          > could
                          > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                          say,
                          > you
                          > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                          > think
                          > > > that
                          > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                          > > > knows.
                          > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                          > interesting
                          > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                          wish
                          > to
                          > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > PMCV
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                          <no_reply@y...>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                          > > > pretty
                          > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                          > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                          > > > > quickly,
                          > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                          > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus
                          as
                          > God-
                          > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                          > > > Father
                          > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                          she
                          > also
                          > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                          > > > > incarnate,
                          > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                          > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe
                          he
                          > was
                          > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                          > orthadox
                          > > > > > churches say ;)
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > > >
                          > > >
                        • pmcvflag
                          I am agreed with you Penn. This is what makes critical hermeneutics so important.... and it is also what makes history part of our focus (with the other one
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
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                            I am agreed with you Penn. This is what makes critical hermeneutics
                            so important.... and it is also what makes history part of our focus
                            (with the other one being the meaning). For one to understand what
                            Gnostic texts mean, we must know something about the people who wrote
                            them. This gives us valuable clues as to how they expressed
                            themselves, and what they meant to communicate. Of course,
                            understanding Gnosticism is not about getting stuck in dusty old
                            manuscripts, but we certainly want to understand what foundation
                            these old texts were trying to communicate.

                            PMCV

                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                            > MM PMCV
                            >
                            > And then there's the ole how have I interpreted what I've read bit.
                            Many
                            > factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we
                            interepret
                            > in a way which we want to interpret rather than what was intended
                            to be
                            > said.
                            >
                            > MP
                            > Penn
                            >
                            > --
                            > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in
                            it; and
                            > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                            >
                            > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                            >
                            >
                            > > Sarutobi
                            > >
                            > > You state....
                            > >
                            > > "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                            > > truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                            > > follow"
                            > >
                            > > The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
                            > > Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you
                            are
                            > > looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.
                            > >
                            > > There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the
                            way
                            > > it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
                            > > the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
                            > > you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
                            > > do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are
                            viewing
                            > > Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
                            > > meant to over-ride.
                            > >
                            > > You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to
                            look
                            > > in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
                            > > though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of
                            the
                            > > myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
                            > > perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
                            > > you have.
                            > >
                            > > This, of course, is a seperate topic.
                            > >
                            > > PMCV
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            > >
                          • Ginosko
                            MM Sarutobi496 However, archeology gives us yet another picture which is at loggerheads with accepted history. At the alledged time that the Hebrews were being
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
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                              MM Sarutobi496

                              However, archeology gives us yet another picture which is at loggerheads
                              with accepted history. At the alledged time that the Hebrews were being
                              driven out of Egypt there are no signs of such a thing. However, there are
                              signs of a bitter internal civil war within Egypt.

                              Many of the Jewish Rabbion are now coming to terms with the idea that the OT
                              is allegorical and not literal which kinda negates the idea in some sense
                              that tradition makes it true. In fct when we examine many traditions we find
                              that there is a small grain of truth in it, and it oft aint what one
                              imagines it to be. Look carefully and you will find misinformation on ALL
                              sides. No one has a complete picture as of yet regardless of what they claim
                              so far.

                              Did you know for example that in the original Jewish myth, Yaweh had a
                              consort/wife. And that consort was none other than Asherah. And the basic
                              meaning of Asherah was to do with TRUTH ;) Also that the original Jewish
                              creation happened on four spheres or levels which the current four
                              itterations of creation are a part of in the bible today

                              MP
                              Penn

                              --
                              Now you are going to ask me how to destroy this stark
                              awareness of your self. You might be thinking that if you
                              destroy this sense of your self you will destroy
                              everythingelse too and you will be right. But I will answer
                              this fear by telling you that without a very special grace
                              from God and without a particular aptitude on your part,
                              you will never beable to get rid of this naked sense of
                              self. For your part, this aptitude consists of a robust and
                              profound sorrow of spirit.....Everybody has a special
                              reason for grief, but the person who has a deep experience
                              of himself existing apart from God feels the most acute
                              sorrow. Once we have aquired this sorrow it not only
                              purifies our souls, but it takes away all the pain merited
                              by sin and thus makes the soul capable of receivingthat joy
                              which takes from a man all sense of his own being. If this
                              sorrow is genuine, it is full of holy longing. Otherwise
                              nobody could bear it.

                              from The Cloud of Unknowing


                              > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know" about
                              > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                              > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                              > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                              > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                              >
                              > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the Jewish
                              > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                              > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived it......its
                              > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                              > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                              >
                              > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                              > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                              > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                              > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                              > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                              > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                              > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                              > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                              > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                              > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                              > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                              >
                              > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                              > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                              > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                              > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                              > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all those
                              > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the Torah
                              > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                              > to think about ;)
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > MM Sarutobi496
                              > >
                              > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                              > Gnostics have
                              > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                              > misinterpretation of
                              > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                              > following of
                              > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                              > texts have
                              > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                              > mistakenly thought
                              > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                              > pronouncing
                              > > himself as such.
                              > >
                              > > MP
                              > > Penn
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                              > in it; and
                              > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                              > >
                              > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                              > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                              > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                              > life,
                              > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                              > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                              > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                              > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                              > follow........
                              > > >
                              > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                              > degradation of
                              > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                              > disagree
                              > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                              > demiurge, a
                              > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                              > Judaism
                              > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                              > anything
                              > > > but evil.......
                              > > >
                              > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                              > Jewish
                              > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                              > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                              > help
                              > > > if
                              > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                              > Gnosticism,
                              > > > that
                              > > > > is.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                              > see
                              > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                              > > > assume
                              > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                              > could
                              > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say,
                              > you
                              > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                              > think
                              > > > that
                              > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                              > > > knows.
                              > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                              > interesting
                              > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish
                              > to
                              > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > PMCV
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                              > > > pretty
                              > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                              > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                              > > > > quickly,
                              > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                              > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as
                              > God-
                              > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                              > > > Father
                              > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she
                              > also
                              > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                              > > > > incarnate,
                              > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                              > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he
                              > was
                              > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                              > orthadox
                              > > > > > churches say ;)
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • Ginosko
                              MM PMCVFLAG There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a religion Wicca is new, i.e. 1950 s. However, examine the myths upon which it is built
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                MM PMCVFLAG

                                There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a religion Wicca
                                is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is built and
                                you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do indeed
                                predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having been
                                derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some 30,000
                                years ago.

                                Just a lil to ponder.

                                MP
                                Penn

                                --
                                O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail. For Kabir
                                and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how is it
                                seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can say what
                                is what?

                                Kabir


                                > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old Religion",
                                > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954), and
                                > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are fully
                                > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a history
                                > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the Templars,
                                > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started as a
                                > medieval craft guild.
                                >
                                > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they have
                                > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                >
                                > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish people,
                                > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely admit
                                > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value. Dont
                                > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                >
                                > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that is a
                                > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the club
                                > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                > inductive leaps.
                                >
                                > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively, and
                                > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the Demiurge in
                                > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are missing
                                > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that have
                                > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                >
                                > PMCV
                                >
                                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                > about
                                > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                                > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                                > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                                > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                > >
                                > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                > Jewish
                                > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                > it......its
                                > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                                > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                > >
                                > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                                > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                                > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                                > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                                > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                                > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                > >
                                > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                                > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                                > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                > those
                                > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                > Torah
                                > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                                > > to think about ;)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                > > >
                                > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                > > Gnostics have
                                > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                > > misinterpretation of
                                > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                > > following of
                                > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                                > > texts have
                                > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                > > mistakenly thought
                                > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                > > pronouncing
                                > > > himself as such.
                                > > >
                                > > > MP
                                > > > Penn
                                > > >
                                > > > --
                                > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                                > > in it; and
                                > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                > > >
                                > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                                > a
                                > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                                > > life,
                                > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                > felt
                                > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                > read
                                > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                                > i'm
                                > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                > > follow........
                                > > > >
                                > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                > > degradation of
                                > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                > > disagree
                                > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                > > demiurge, a
                                > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                > > Judaism
                                > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                > > anything
                                > > > > but evil.......
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                > > Jewish
                                > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                                > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                                > > help
                                > > > > if
                                > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                > > Gnosticism,
                                > > > > that
                                > > > > > is.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                                > > see
                                > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                                > > > > assume
                                > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                                > > could
                                > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                > say,
                                > > you
                                > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                > > think
                                > > > > that
                                > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                                > > > > knows.
                                > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                > > interesting
                                > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                > wish
                                > > to
                                > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > PMCV
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                > <no_reply@y...>
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                                > > > > pretty
                                > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                                > > > > > quickly,
                                > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus
                                > as
                                > > God-
                                > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                                > > > > Father
                                > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                > she
                                > > also
                                > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                                > > > > > incarnate,
                                > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                                > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe
                                > he
                                > > was
                                > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                > > orthadox
                                > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                              • sarutobi496
                                of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it that)......But thats Canaanite
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i
                                  was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                  that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                  Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                  truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the cultures
                                  more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                  of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                  how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                  Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able to
                                  be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                  changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                  greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                  encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                  older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                  affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew traditions
                                  are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                  has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it does
                                  to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                  Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                  religions......

                                  I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                  supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                  perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                  know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to this: "it
                                  doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or what
                                  others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                  always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and follow
                                  our path to God."




                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                  > MM PMCVFLAG
                                  >
                                  > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                  religion Wicca
                                  > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                  built and
                                  > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                  indeed
                                  > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                  been
                                  > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                  30,000
                                  > years ago.
                                  >
                                  > Just a lil to ponder.
                                  >
                                  > MP
                                  > Penn
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                  For Kabir
                                  > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                  is it
                                  > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who
                                  can say what
                                  > is what?
                                  >
                                  > Kabir
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                  Religion",
                                  > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                  > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                  and
                                  > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles
                                  ancient
                                  > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                  fully
                                  > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                  history
                                  > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                  Templars,
                                  > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                  as a
                                  > > medieval craft guild.
                                  > >
                                  > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                  > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                  > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the
                                  Torah
                                  > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                  have
                                  > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                  > >
                                  > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                  people,
                                  > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                  admit
                                  > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                  Dont
                                  > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just
                                  that
                                  > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                  > >
                                  > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                  is a
                                  > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                  club
                                  > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an
                                  attempt
                                  > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                  > > inductive leaps.
                                  > >
                                  > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                  and
                                  > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                  Demiurge in
                                  > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                  > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                  missing
                                  > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that
                                  talk
                                  > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                  > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                  have
                                  > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the
                                  Gnostics
                                  > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                  > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                  > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                  > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-
                                  Jewish.
                                  > >
                                  > > PMCV
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                  > > about
                                  > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                  sources ;)),
                                  > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                  history
                                  > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how
                                  it was
                                  > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will
                                  be.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                  > > Jewish
                                  > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                  > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                  > > it......its
                                  > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                  without
                                  > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                  > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                  too
                                  > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                  > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                  history
                                  > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                  the
                                  > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                  > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                  even
                                  > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                  > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep
                                  into the
                                  > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                  > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                  > > >
                                  > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                  > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                  egyptian/sumerian
                                  > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                  way
                                  > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot
                                  of
                                  > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                  > > those
                                  > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                  > > Torah
                                  > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                  something
                                  > > > to think about ;)
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However
                                  many
                                  > > > Gnostics have
                                  > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                  > > > misinterpretation of
                                  > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                  > > > following of
                                  > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                  Gnostic
                                  > > > texts have
                                  > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                  > > > mistakenly thought
                                  > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                  > > > pronouncing
                                  > > > > himself as such.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > MP
                                  > > > > Penn
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --
                                  > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each
                                  person is
                                  > > > in it; and
                                  > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been
                                  a
                                  > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of
                                  devotion) for
                                  > > a
                                  > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different
                                  way of
                                  > > > life,
                                  > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet
                                  has
                                  > > felt
                                  > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism,
                                  i've
                                  > > read
                                  > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                  truth
                                  > > i'm
                                  > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                  > > > follow........
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                  > > > degradation of
                                  > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                  > > > disagree
                                  > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                  > > > demiurge, a
                                  > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved
                                  with
                                  > > > Judaism
                                  > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who
                                  is
                                  > > > anything
                                  > > > > > but evil.......
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                  > > > Jewish
                                  > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                  accept,
                                  > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                  times....
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag
                                  <no_reply@y...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                  would
                                  > > > help
                                  > > > > > if
                                  > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                  > > > Gnosticism,
                                  > > > > > that
                                  > > > > > > is.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics
                                  did not
                                  > > > see
                                  > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                  what I
                                  > > > > > assume
                                  > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                  phrase
                                  > > > could
                                  > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                  > > say,
                                  > > > you
                                  > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I
                                  don't
                                  > > > think
                                  > > > > > that
                                  > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much,
                                  but who
                                  > > > > > knows.
                                  > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                  > > > interesting
                                  > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                  > > wish
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > PMCV
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                  > > <no_reply@y...>
                                  > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                  learning
                                  > > > > > pretty
                                  > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                  > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                  everything
                                  > > > > > > quickly,
                                  > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any
                                  misunderstandings
                                  > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                  jesus
                                  > > as
                                  > > > God-
                                  > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                  Heavenly
                                  > > > > > Father
                                  > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene,
                                  was
                                  > > she
                                  > > > also
                                  > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                  God
                                  > > > > > > incarnate,
                                  > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                  the
                                  > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                  believe
                                  > > he
                                  > > > was
                                  > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from
                                  what
                                  > > > orthadox
                                  > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                • pmcvflag
                                  The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so called Goddess religion even really existed 30,000 years ago. To add to this, while
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
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                                    The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so
                                    called "Goddess" religion even really existed "30,000" years ago.

                                    To add to this, while Wicca may borrow mythological terms from
                                    ancient sources, it doesn't mean that it has any genuine connection
                                    to the religious practices that produced those mythologies initially.
                                    I don't know what the "Eussinian" myths are, but I have heard people
                                    state that Wicca is based on the Mysteries at Eleusis (Is that what
                                    you meant?).

                                    If I go make up a religion tomorrow, I could choose to populate it
                                    with names I got from JRR Tolkien, or with names I got from Homer....
                                    the notion that I incedentally decide to use the name from Homer
                                    instead of Tolkien somehow gives my new religion a pre-Christian
                                    lineage is simply not true.

                                    This doesn't mean that Wicca has no value to it's followers. My only
                                    point to Sarutobi (since the practice of Wicca is outside the focus
                                    of this club) is that historical observation often disagrees with
                                    traditional legends about the origins of religions beliefs. I
                                    maintain that point still.

                                    PMCV

                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                    > MM PMCVFLAG
                                    >
                                    > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                    religion Wicca
                                    > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                    built and
                                    > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                    indeed
                                    > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                    been
                                    > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                    30,000
                                    > years ago.
                                    >
                                    > Just a lil to ponder.
                                    >
                                    > MP
                                    > Penn
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                    For Kabir
                                    > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                    is it
                                    > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can
                                    say what
                                    > is what?
                                    >
                                    > Kabir
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                    Religion",
                                    > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                    > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                    and
                                    > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                    > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                    fully
                                    > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                    history
                                    > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                    Templars,
                                    > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                    as a
                                    > > medieval craft guild.
                                    > >
                                    > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                    > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                    > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                    > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                    have
                                    > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                    > >
                                    > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                    people,
                                    > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                    admit
                                    > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                    Dont
                                    > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                    > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                    > >
                                    > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                    is a
                                    > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                    club
                                    > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                    > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                    > > inductive leaps.
                                    > >
                                    > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                    and
                                    > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                    Demiurge in
                                    > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                    > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                    missing
                                    > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                    > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                    > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                    have
                                    > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                    > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                    > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                    > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                    > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                    > >
                                    > > PMCV
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                    > > about
                                    > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                    sources ;)),
                                    > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                    history
                                    > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it
                                    was
                                    > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                    > > Jewish
                                    > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                    > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                    > > it......its
                                    > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                    without
                                    > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                    > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                    too
                                    > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                    > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                    history
                                    > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                    the
                                    > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                    > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                    even
                                    > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                    > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into
                                    the
                                    > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                    > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                    > > >
                                    > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                    > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                    egyptian/sumerian
                                    > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                    way
                                    > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                    > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                    > > those
                                    > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                    > > Torah
                                    > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                    something
                                    > > > to think about ;)
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                    > > > Gnostics have
                                    > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                    > > > misinterpretation of
                                    > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                    > > > following of
                                    > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                    Gnostic
                                    > > > texts have
                                    > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                    > > > mistakenly thought
                                    > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                    > > > pronouncing
                                    > > > > himself as such.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > MP
                                    > > > > Penn
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --
                                    > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person
                                    is
                                    > > > in it; and
                                    > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                    > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion)
                                    for
                                    > > a
                                    > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way
                                    of
                                    > > > life,
                                    > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                    > > felt
                                    > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                    > > read
                                    > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                    truth
                                    > > i'm
                                    > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                    > > > follow........
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                    > > > degradation of
                                    > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                    > > > disagree
                                    > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                    > > > demiurge, a
                                    > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                    > > > Judaism
                                    > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                    > > > anything
                                    > > > > > but evil.......
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                    > > > Jewish
                                    > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                    accept,
                                    > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                    times....
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                    would
                                    > > > help
                                    > > > > > if
                                    > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                    > > > Gnosticism,
                                    > > > > > that
                                    > > > > > > is.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did
                                    not
                                    > > > see
                                    > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                    what I
                                    > > > > > assume
                                    > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                    phrase
                                    > > > could
                                    > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                    > > say,
                                    > > > you
                                    > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                    > > > think
                                    > > > > > that
                                    > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but
                                    who
                                    > > > > > knows.
                                    > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                    > > > interesting
                                    > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                    > > wish
                                    > > > to
                                    > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > PMCV
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                    > > <no_reply@y...>
                                    > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                    learning
                                    > > > > > pretty
                                    > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                    > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                    everything
                                    > > > > > > quickly,
                                    > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                    > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                    jesus
                                    > > as
                                    > > > God-
                                    > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                    Heavenly
                                    > > > > > Father
                                    > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                    > > she
                                    > > > also
                                    > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                    God
                                    > > > > > > incarnate,
                                    > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                    the
                                    > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                    believe
                                    > > he
                                    > > > was
                                    > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                    > > > orthadox
                                    > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                  • pmcvflag
                                    Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you interested in Gnosticism? PMCV ... of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
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                                      Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                      interested in Gnosticism?

                                      PMCV

                                      --------------------------------------------------

                                      of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i
                                      was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                      that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                      Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                      truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the cultures
                                      more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                      of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                      how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                      Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able to
                                      be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                      changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                      greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                      encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                      older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                      affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew traditions
                                      are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                      has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it does
                                      to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                      Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                      religions......

                                      I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                      supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                      perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                      know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to this: "it
                                      doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or what
                                      others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                      always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and follow
                                      our path to God."
                                    • Ginosko
                                      MM PMCV I understand where you re headed at least and agree ;) MP Penn -- Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self. Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
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                                        MM PMCV

                                        I understand where you're headed at least and agree ;)

                                        MP
                                        Penn

                                        --
                                        Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self.

                                        Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra 214


                                        > The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so
                                        > called "Goddess" religion even really existed "30,000" years ago.
                                        >
                                        > To add to this, while Wicca may borrow mythological terms from
                                        > ancient sources, it doesn't mean that it has any genuine connection
                                        > to the religious practices that produced those mythologies initially.
                                        > I don't know what the "Eussinian" myths are, but I have heard people
                                        > state that Wicca is based on the Mysteries at Eleusis (Is that what
                                        > you meant?).
                                        >
                                        > If I go make up a religion tomorrow, I could choose to populate it
                                        > with names I got from JRR Tolkien, or with names I got from Homer....
                                        > the notion that I incedentally decide to use the name from Homer
                                        > instead of Tolkien somehow gives my new religion a pre-Christian
                                        > lineage is simply not true.
                                        >
                                        > This doesn't mean that Wicca has no value to it's followers. My only
                                        > point to Sarutobi (since the practice of Wicca is outside the focus
                                        > of this club) is that historical observation often disagrees with
                                        > traditional legends about the origins of religions beliefs. I
                                        > maintain that point still.
                                        >
                                        > PMCV
                                        >
                                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                        > > MM PMCVFLAG
                                        > >
                                        > > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                        > religion Wicca
                                        > > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                        > built and
                                        > > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                        > indeed
                                        > > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                        > been
                                        > > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                        > 30,000
                                        > > years ago.
                                        > >
                                        > > Just a lil to ponder.
                                        > >
                                        > > MP
                                        > > Penn
                                        > >
                                        > > --
                                        > > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                        > For Kabir
                                        > > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                        > is it
                                        > > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can
                                        > say what
                                        > > is what?
                                        > >
                                        > > Kabir
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                        > Religion",
                                        > > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                        > > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                        > and
                                        > > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                        > > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                        > fully
                                        > > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                        > history
                                        > > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                        > Templars,
                                        > > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                        > as a
                                        > > > medieval craft guild.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                        > > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                        > > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                        > > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                        > have
                                        > > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                        > people,
                                        > > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                        > admit
                                        > > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                        > Dont
                                        > > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                        > > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                        > is a
                                        > > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                        > club
                                        > > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                        > > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                        > > > inductive leaps.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                        > and
                                        > > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                        > Demiurge in
                                        > > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                        > > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                        > missing
                                        > > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                        > > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                        > > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                        > have
                                        > > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                        > > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                        > > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                        > > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                        > > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > PMCV
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                        > > > about
                                        > > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                        > sources ;)),
                                        > > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                        > history
                                        > > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it
                                        > was
                                        > > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                        > > > Jewish
                                        > > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                        > > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                        > > > it......its
                                        > > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                        > without
                                        > > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                        > > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                        > too
                                        > > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                        > > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                        > history
                                        > > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                        > the
                                        > > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                        > > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                        > even
                                        > > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                        > > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into
                                        > the
                                        > > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                        > > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                        > > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                        > egyptian/sumerian
                                        > > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                        > way
                                        > > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                        > > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                        > > > those
                                        > > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                        > > > Torah
                                        > > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                        > something
                                        > > > > to think about ;)
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                        > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                        > > > > Gnostics have
                                        > > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                        > > > > misinterpretation of
                                        > > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                        > > > > following of
                                        > > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                        > Gnostic
                                        > > > > texts have
                                        > > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                        > > > > mistakenly thought
                                        > > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                        > > > > pronouncing
                                        > > > > > himself as such.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > MP
                                        > > > > > Penn
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --
                                        > > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person
                                        > is
                                        > > > > in it; and
                                        > > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                        > > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion)
                                        > for
                                        > > > a
                                        > > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way
                                        > of
                                        > > > > life,
                                        > > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                        > > > felt
                                        > > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                        > > > read
                                        > > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                        > truth
                                        > > > i'm
                                        > > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                        > > > > follow........
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                        > > > > degradation of
                                        > > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                        > > > > disagree
                                        > > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                        > > > > demiurge, a
                                        > > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                        > > > > Judaism
                                        > > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                        > > > > anything
                                        > > > > > > but evil.......
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                        > > > > Jewish
                                        > > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                        > accept,
                                        > > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                        > times....
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                        > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                        > would
                                        > > > > help
                                        > > > > > > if
                                        > > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                        > > > > Gnosticism,
                                        > > > > > > that
                                        > > > > > > > is.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did
                                        > not
                                        > > > > see
                                        > > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                        > what I
                                        > > > > > > assume
                                        > > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                        > phrase
                                        > > > > could
                                        > > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                        > > > say,
                                        > > > > you
                                        > > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                        > > > > think
                                        > > > > > > that
                                        > > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but
                                        > who
                                        > > > > > > knows.
                                        > > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                        > > > > interesting
                                        > > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                        > > > wish
                                        > > > > to
                                        > > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > PMCV
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                        > > > <no_reply@y...>
                                        > > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                        > learning
                                        > > > > > > pretty
                                        > > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                        > > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                        > everything
                                        > > > > > > > quickly,
                                        > > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                        > > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                        > jesus
                                        > > > as
                                        > > > > God-
                                        > > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                        > Heavenly
                                        > > > > > > Father
                                        > > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                        > > > she
                                        > > > > also
                                        > > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                        > God
                                        > > > > > > > incarnate,
                                        > > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                        > the
                                        > > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                        > believe
                                        > > > he
                                        > > > > was
                                        > > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                        > > > > orthadox
                                        > > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        >
                                      • sarutobi496
                                        yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i understand the important
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
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                                          yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of
                                          the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i
                                          understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i've
                                          understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the divine
                                          light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                          despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                          going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                          reason...

                                          What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                          general, were the authors actually inspired by God? and are the
                                          texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make it all up and
                                          say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides to this story
                                          in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely revealed
                                          religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so any
                                          texts i should read most importantly?



                                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                          > Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                          > interested in Gnosticism?
                                          >
                                          > PMCV
                                          >
                                          > --------------------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture,
                                          i
                                          > was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                          > that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                          > Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                          > truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the
                                          cultures
                                          > more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                          > of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                          > how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                          > Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able
                                          to
                                          > be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                          > changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                          > greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                          > encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                          > older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                          > affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew
                                          traditions
                                          > are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                          > has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it
                                          does
                                          > to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                          > Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                          > religions......
                                          >
                                          > I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                          > supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                          > perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                          > know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to
                                          this: "it
                                          > doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or
                                          what
                                          > others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                          > always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and
                                          follow
                                          > our path to God."
                                        • Ginosko
                                          MM Sarutobi Basically I would agree with you, but their is an error in your post. The Nag Hammadi docs don t portay the Demiurgus as a Creator. Rather he is
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
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                                            MM Sarutobi

                                            Basically I would agree with you, but their is an error in your post. The
                                            Nag Hammadi docs don't portay the Demiurgus as a Creator. Rather he is
                                            called blind when he awakens and seeing no one around proclaims himself
                                            creator, i.e. it's like someone saying IDIOT! when someone falsely proclaims
                                            something to them today.

                                            MP
                                            Penn

                                            --
                                            Man must be a lover of the light no matter from what day-spring it may
                                            appear. He must be a lover of the rose no matter in what soil it may be
                                            growing. He must be a seeker of the truth no matter from what source it
                                            come. Attachment to the lantern is not loving the light.


                                            Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15 )


                                            > yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of
                                            > the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i
                                            > understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i've
                                            > understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the divine
                                            > light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                            > despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                            > going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                            > reason...
                                            >
                                            > What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                            > general, were the authors actually inspired by God? and are the
                                            > texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make it all up and
                                            > say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides to this story
                                            > in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely revealed
                                            > religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so any
                                            > texts i should read most importantly?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                            > > Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                            > > interested in Gnosticism?
                                            > >
                                            > > PMCV
                                            > >
                                            > > --------------------------------------------------
                                            > >
                                            > > of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture,
                                            > i
                                            > > was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                            > > that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                            > > Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                            > > truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the
                                            > cultures
                                            > > more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                            > > of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                            > > how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                            > > Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able
                                            > to
                                            > > be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                            > > changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                            > > greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                            > > encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                            > > older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                            > > affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew
                                            > traditions
                                            > > are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                            > > has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it
                                            > does
                                            > > to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                            > > Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                            > > religions......
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                            > > supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                            > > perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                            > > know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to
                                            > this: "it
                                            > > doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or
                                            > what
                                            > > others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                            > > always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and
                                            > follow
                                            > > our path to God."
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • pmcvflag
                                            Sarutobi.... ... me see if i understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i ve understood it means realizing the spirit inside of us, the divine
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
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                                              Sarutobi....

                                              >>>without any of the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let
                                              me see if i understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what
                                              i've understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the
                                              divine light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                              despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                              going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                              reason...<<<

                                              Well, sort of. You could say that it is also partly the specific
                                              context for the recognition of ones spirit as a splinter of that
                                              source. Perhaps what you offered is good enough for us to start
                                              working with though. Add to what you said though, the realization
                                              that it is not a "Heavenly Creator". That source of our spirit is not
                                              a "God" as it is commonly understood.

                                              >>>What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                              general, were the authors actually inspired by God?<<<<

                                              That is something you will have to figure out for yourself Sarutobi.
                                              However, I should state again, so there is no confusion, the Gnostic
                                              concept of "God" is very different from that which most people are
                                              used to. Therefore, if you mean "inspired by God" in the way most
                                              Christians use that term... it is a meaningless question to a Gnostic.

                                              >>>and are the texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make
                                              it all up and say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides
                                              to this story in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely
                                              revealed religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so
                                              any texts i should read most importantly?<<<

                                              It seems to me that you are still thinking of this in very literal
                                              terms, Sarutobi. I also get the impression that you are quite young.
                                              Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I am thinking perhaps there
                                              are some concepts concerning mythology that you are not familiar
                                              with. It is important to understand that to some extent Jesus and his
                                              saints are also made up. The point of mythology is not that it
                                              actually happened that way. Just like Jason did not REALLY find a
                                              golden fleece, Jesus did not REALLY walk out across the water. Does
                                              that mean the stories are lies? No, in fact the stories are true....
                                              just not in the way most people think.

                                              If you go reading your Nag Hammadi books, and you think that Adam was
                                              literally flopping around on the ground while the Demiurge tried to
                                              mold him... and that Sophia turned into a tree to excape the Archons,
                                              you will be missing the whole point of the story.
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