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Re: jesus incarnation?

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  • pmcvflag
    Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club. So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help if you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 21, 2003
      Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.

      So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help if
      you told us what you have read so far.... concerning Gnosticism, that
      is.

      To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not see
      Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I assume
      you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase could
      be used quite differently in Gnosticism).

      If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say, you
      will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't think that
      your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who knows.
      Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an interesting
      ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish to
      read the Nag Hammadi Library.

      PMCV

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning pretty
      > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
      > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
      quickly,
      > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
      > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as God-
      > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly Father
      > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she also
      > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
      >
      > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
      incarnate,
      > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
      > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he was
      > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what orthadox
      > churches say ;)
    • sarutobi496
      well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i ve been a conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a long time, and now i feel
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
        well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
        conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
        long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of life,
        i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
        like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
        much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
        really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and follow........

        One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its degradation of
        Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally disagree
        with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the demiurge, a
        minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with Judaism
        and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is anything
        but evil.......

        I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the Jewish
        religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
        Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....





        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
        >
        > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help
        if
        > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning Gnosticism,
        that
        > is.
        >
        > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not see
        > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
        assume
        > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase could
        > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
        >
        > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say, you
        > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't think
        that
        > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
        knows.
        > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an interesting
        > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish to
        > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
        >
        > PMCV
        >
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
        wrote:
        > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
        pretty
        > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
        > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
        > quickly,
        > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
        > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as God-
        > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
        Father
        > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she also
        > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
        > >
        > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
        > incarnate,
        > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
        > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he was
        > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what orthadox
        > > churches say ;)
      • Gerry
        ... life, ... follow........ ... of ... disagree ... Judaism ... anything ... I ll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are repairing my roof
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
          > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
          > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
          life,
          > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
          > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
          > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
          > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
          follow........
          >
          > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its degradation
          of
          > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
          disagree
          > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the demiurge, a
          > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
          Judaism
          > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
          anything
          > but evil.......
          >
          > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the Jewish
          > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
          > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....



          I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are repairing
          my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
          guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to fall
          through my ceiling. LOL

          Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than it
          does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards to
          these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
          Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
          them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
          support and guidance, there are countless others from each of those
          faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
          religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those who,
          feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
          have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite their
          enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
          terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others leads
          people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
          evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
          the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst the
          debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
          Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced to
          the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
          becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the stakes
          are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch money
          or protection of one's turf.

          If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking out
          the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left with
          a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view of
          the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one would
          have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is often
          equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
          benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
          lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond that
          notion of a personal god.

          Gerry
        • Don Tipton
          Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton) I m replying to your post as a new member, forgive me if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective of my
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
            Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)

            I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive me
            if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
            of my reply.

            I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
            Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
            I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
            District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
            work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under our
            constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
            to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
            am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs as
            a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)

            I've been to every continent during my military occupation years,
            and have written three books that are currently advertised on
            amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
            of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
            I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
            social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
            instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
            history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
            the region.

            Now to my reply to your post:
            RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
            Gnostics:
            As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
            Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
            in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained the
            Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
            prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
            Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
            from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
            Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
            yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
            a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of Shur)

            Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
            re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
            spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
            history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.

            The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of Israel
            and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
            sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
            limited.

            Best Regards,

            Don




            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
            wrote:
            > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
            > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
            a
            > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
            > life,
            > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
            felt
            > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
            read
            > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
            i'm
            > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
            > follow........
            > >
            > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
            degradation
            > of
            > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
            > disagree
            > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
            demiurge, a
            > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
            > Judaism
            > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
            > anything
            > > but evil.......
            > >
            > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
            Jewish
            > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
            > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
            >
            >
            >
            > I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are
            repairing
            > my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
            > guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to
            fall
            > through my ceiling. LOL
            >
            > Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than
            it
            > does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards
            to
            > these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
            > Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
            > them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
            > support and guidance, there are countless others from each of
            those
            > faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
            > religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those
            who,
            > feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
            > have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite
            their
            > enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
            > terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others
            leads
            > people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
            > evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
            > the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst
            the
            > debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
            > Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced
            to
            > the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
            > becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the
            stakes
            > are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch
            money
            > or protection of one's turf.
            >
            > If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking
            out
            > the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left
            with
            > a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view
            of
            > the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one
            would
            > have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is
            often
            > equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
            > benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
            > lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond
            that
            > notion of a personal god.
            >
            > Gerry
          • pmcvflag
            To respond to this post in a way that is relevent to the club, let me first point out that any historical analysis concerning Moses is speculative at best,
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
              To respond to this post in a way that is relevent to the club, let me
              first point out that any "historical" analysis concerning Moses is
              speculative at best, at worst it runs the risk of falling into "Holy
              Blood Holy Grail" kind of sensationalism. Of course, the real
              question is how this pertains to Gnosticism.....

              Let me then include my response to Sarutobi

              Antisemitism is not a Gnostic principle. Many of the early Gnostics
              were Jews, and Gnosticism is, itself, a Jewish Hellenic syncratism.
              If Dr Pearson's historical speculations are correct, then the early
              Sethian movement can be placed firmly in the category of "Jewish
              sect".

              I would also point out to Sarutobi, that some modern forms of Judism
              have a notion of "Demiurge" as well. The Kabbalah does not see it's
              prime source, called "En Soph", as the same as it's physical world
              molder, called "Metatron".

              We really must be careful how we categorize Gnosticism in it's
              relation to Judism, there is a lot of misinformation out there.

              PMCV

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Don Tipton" <gizzard2003@y...>
              wrote:
              > Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)
              >
              > I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive
              me
              > if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
              > of my reply.
              >
              > I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
              > Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
              > I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
              > District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
              > work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under
              our
              > constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
              > to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
              > am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs
              as
              > a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)
              >
              > I've been to every continent during my military occupation
              years,
              > and have written three books that are currently advertised on
              > amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
              > of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
              > I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
              > social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
              > instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
              > history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
              > the region.
              >
              > Now to my reply to your post:
              > RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
              > Gnostics:
              > As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
              > Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
              > in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained
              the
              > Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
              > prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
              > Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
              > from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
              > Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
              > yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
              > a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of
              Shur)
              >
              > Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
              > re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
              > spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
              > history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.
              >
              > The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of
              Israel
              > and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
              > sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
              > limited.
              >
              > Best Regards,
              >
              > Don
            • pmcvflag
              Sarutobi You state.... i ve read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i m really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                Sarutobi

                You state....

                "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                follow"

                The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
                Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you are
                looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.

                There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the way
                it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
                the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
                you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
                do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are viewing
                Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
                meant to over-ride.

                You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to look
                in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
                though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of the
                myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
                perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
                you have.

                This, of course, is a seperate topic.

                PMCV
              • walkinginclogs@aol.com
                Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or did they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had problems
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                  Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or did
                  they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had
                  problems with the fact that it said that God had the Israelites kill out the
                  residents of the Promised Land, in order to make room for them. It said his reason
                  was that they worshipped false gods. But were they even given a chance to know
                  who the true God was? Sounds much like what we did to the American Indians.
                • Penndragon
                  MM Sarutobi496 Gnosticism itself doesn t degrade the Jewish God. However many Gnostics have come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                    MM Sarutobi496

                    Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many Gnostics have
                    come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a misinterpretation of
                    the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind following of
                    the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic texts have
                    YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who mistakenly thought
                    he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for pronouncing
                    himself as such.

                    MP
                    Penn

                    --
                    The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                    so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                    Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                    > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                    > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                    > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of life,
                    > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                    > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                    > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                    > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and follow........
                    >
                    > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its degradation of
                    > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally disagree
                    > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the demiurge, a
                    > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with Judaism
                    > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is anything
                    > but evil.......
                    >
                    > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the Jewish
                    > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                    > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                    > >
                    > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help
                    > if
                    > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning Gnosticism,
                    > that
                    > > is.
                    > >
                    > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not see
                    > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                    > assume
                    > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase could
                    > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                    > >
                    > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say, you
                    > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't think
                    > that
                    > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                    > knows.
                    > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an interesting
                    > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish to
                    > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                    > >
                    > > PMCV
                    > >
                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                    > pretty
                    > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                    > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                    > > quickly,
                    > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                    > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as God-
                    > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                    > Father
                    > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she also
                    > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                    > > >
                    > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                    > > incarnate,
                    > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                    > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he was
                    > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what orthadox
                    > > > churches say ;)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Penndragon
                    MM Don Actually it doesn t make for a false religion. Judaic in the sense of the Jewish people of which Arron was supposed to be. So in this sense the
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                      MM Don

                      Actually it doesn't make for a false religion. Judaic in the sense of the
                      Jewish people of which Arron was supposed to be. So in this sense the
                      preisthood of Arron is still a judaic preisthood. However another point is
                      that Moses and Arron as they appear in the bible seem to be purely
                      allegorical characters, i.e. they never existed in real life.

                      MP
                      Penn

                      --
                      The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                      so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                      Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa



                      > Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)
                      >
                      > I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive me
                      > if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
                      > of my reply.
                      >
                      > I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
                      > Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
                      > I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
                      > District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
                      > work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under our
                      > constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
                      > to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
                      > am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs as
                      > a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)
                      >
                      > I've been to every continent during my military occupation years,
                      > and have written three books that are currently advertised on
                      > amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
                      > of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
                      > I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
                      > social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
                      > instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
                      > history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
                      > the region.
                      >
                      > Now to my reply to your post:
                      > RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
                      > Gnostics:
                      > As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
                      > Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
                      > in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained the
                      > Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
                      > prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
                      > Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
                      > from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
                      > Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
                      > yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
                      > a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of Shur)
                      >
                      > Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
                      > re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
                      > spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
                      > history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.
                      >
                      > The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of Israel
                      > and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
                      > sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
                      > limited.
                      >
                      > Best Regards,
                      >
                      > Don
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                      > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                      > a
                      > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                      > > life,
                      > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                      > felt
                      > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                      > read
                      > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                      > i'm
                      > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                      > > follow........
                      > > >
                      > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                      > degradation
                      > > of
                      > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                      > > disagree
                      > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                      > demiurge, a
                      > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                      > > Judaism
                      > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                      > > anything
                      > > > but evil.......
                      > > >
                      > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                      > Jewish
                      > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                      > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are
                      > repairing
                      > > my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
                      > > guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to
                      > fall
                      > > through my ceiling. LOL
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than
                      > it
                      > > does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards
                      > to
                      > > these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
                      > > Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
                      > > them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
                      > > support and guidance, there are countless others from each of
                      > those
                      > > faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
                      > > religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those
                      > who,
                      > > feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
                      > > have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite
                      > their
                      > > enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
                      > > terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others
                      > leads
                      > > people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
                      > > evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
                      > > the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst
                      > the
                      > > debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
                      > > Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced
                      > to
                      > > the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
                      > > becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the
                      > stakes
                      > > are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch
                      > money
                      > > or protection of one's turf.
                      > >
                      > > If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking
                      > out
                      > > the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left
                      > with
                      > > a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view
                      > of
                      > > the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one
                      > would
                      > > have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is
                      > often
                      > > equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
                      > > benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
                      > > lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond
                      > that
                      > > notion of a personal god.
                      > >
                      > > Gerry
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Penndragon
                      MM PMCV And then there s the ole how have I interpreted what I ve read bit. Many factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we interepret in
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                        MM PMCV

                        And then there's the ole how have I interpreted what I've read bit. Many
                        factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we interepret
                        in a way which we want to interpret rather than what was intended to be
                        said.

                        MP
                        Penn

                        --
                        The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                        so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                        Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                        > Sarutobi
                        >
                        > You state....
                        >
                        > "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                        > truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                        > follow"
                        >
                        > The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
                        > Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you are
                        > looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.
                        >
                        > There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the way
                        > it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
                        > the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
                        > you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
                        > do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are viewing
                        > Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
                        > meant to over-ride.
                        >
                        > You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to look
                        > in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
                        > though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of the
                        > myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
                        > perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
                        > you have.
                        >
                        > This, of course, is a seperate topic.
                        >
                        > PMCV
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Penndragon
                        MM my friend No, I don t think they were ever slaves there. Unwanted immigrants maybe. My understanding is that the entire bible is a set of allegories and not
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                          MM my friend

                          No, I don't think they were ever slaves there. Unwanted immigrants maybe. My
                          understanding is that the entire bible is a set of allegories and not
                          literal history.

                          MP
                          Penn

                          --
                          The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                          so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                          Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                          > Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or
                          did
                          > they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had
                          > problems with the fact that it said that God had the Israelites kill out
                          the
                          > residents of the Promised Land, in order to make room for them. It said
                          his reason
                          > was that they worshipped false gods. But were they even given a chance to
                          know
                          > who the true God was? Sounds much like what we did to the American
                          Indians.
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • sarutobi496
                          in reply to all the historians out there who claim they know about Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)), the Jewish people have
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                            in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know" about
                            Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                            the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                            of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                            in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.

                            there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the Jewish
                            Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                            conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived it......its
                            actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                            the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.

                            i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                            people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                            fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                            research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                            and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                            mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                            gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                            the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                            gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                            gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                            instead of downright anti-yahwehism......

                            perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                            Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                            civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                            to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                            mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all those
                            surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the Torah
                            is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                            to think about ;)


                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                            wrote:
                            > MM Sarutobi496
                            >
                            > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                            Gnostics have
                            > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                            misinterpretation of
                            > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                            following of
                            > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                            texts have
                            > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                            mistakenly thought
                            > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                            pronouncing
                            > himself as such.
                            >
                            > MP
                            > Penn
                            >
                            > --
                            > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                            in it; and
                            > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                            >
                            > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                            >
                            >
                            > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                            > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                            > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                            life,
                            > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                            > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                            > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                            > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                            follow........
                            > >
                            > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                            degradation of
                            > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                            disagree
                            > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                            demiurge, a
                            > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                            Judaism
                            > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                            anything
                            > > but evil.......
                            > >
                            > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                            Jewish
                            > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                            > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                            > > >
                            > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                            help
                            > > if
                            > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                            Gnosticism,
                            > > that
                            > > > is.
                            > > >
                            > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                            see
                            > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                            > > assume
                            > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                            could
                            > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                            > > >
                            > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say,
                            you
                            > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                            think
                            > > that
                            > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                            > > knows.
                            > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                            interesting
                            > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish
                            to
                            > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                            > > >
                            > > > PMCV
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                            > > pretty
                            > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                            > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                            > > > quickly,
                            > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                            > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as
                            God-
                            > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                            > > Father
                            > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she
                            also
                            > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                            > > > incarnate,
                            > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                            > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he
                            was
                            > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                            orthadox
                            > > > > churches say ;)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            > >
                          • pmcvflag
                            Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the Old Religion , and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a completely modern invention
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                              Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old Religion",
                              and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                              completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954), and
                              almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                              beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are fully
                              aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a history
                              that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the Templars,
                              or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started as a
                              medieval craft guild.

                              Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                              misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                              including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                              (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they have
                              no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.

                              On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish people,
                              just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely admit
                              that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value. Dont
                              misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                              it's value is not on the literal level.

                              We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that is a
                              primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the club
                              is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                              shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                              inductive leaps.

                              Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively, and
                              it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the Demiurge in
                              a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                              over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are missing
                              the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                              about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                              position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that have
                              him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                              saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                              this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                              Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                              which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.

                              PMCV

                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                              about
                              > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                              > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                              > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                              > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                              >
                              > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                              Jewish
                              > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                              > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                              it......its
                              > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                              > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                              >
                              > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                              > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                              > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                              > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                              > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                              > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                              > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                              > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                              > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                              > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                              > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                              >
                              > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                              > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                              > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                              > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                              > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                              those
                              > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                              Torah
                              > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                              > to think about ;)
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > MM Sarutobi496
                              > >
                              > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                              > Gnostics have
                              > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                              > misinterpretation of
                              > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                              > following of
                              > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                              > texts have
                              > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                              > mistakenly thought
                              > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                              > pronouncing
                              > > himself as such.
                              > >
                              > > MP
                              > > Penn
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                              > in it; and
                              > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                              > >
                              > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                              > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                              a
                              > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                              > life,
                              > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                              felt
                              > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                              read
                              > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                              i'm
                              > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                              > follow........
                              > > >
                              > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                              > degradation of
                              > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                              > disagree
                              > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                              > demiurge, a
                              > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                              > Judaism
                              > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                              > anything
                              > > > but evil.......
                              > > >
                              > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                              > Jewish
                              > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                              > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                              > help
                              > > > if
                              > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                              > Gnosticism,
                              > > > that
                              > > > > is.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                              > see
                              > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                              > > > assume
                              > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                              > could
                              > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                              say,
                              > you
                              > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                              > think
                              > > > that
                              > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                              > > > knows.
                              > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                              > interesting
                              > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                              wish
                              > to
                              > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > PMCV
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                              <no_reply@y...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                              > > > pretty
                              > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                              > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                              > > > > quickly,
                              > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                              > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus
                              as
                              > God-
                              > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                              > > > Father
                              > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                              she
                              > also
                              > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                              > > > > incarnate,
                              > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                              > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe
                              he
                              > was
                              > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                              > orthadox
                              > > > > > churches say ;)
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                            • pmcvflag
                              I am agreed with you Penn. This is what makes critical hermeneutics so important.... and it is also what makes history part of our focus (with the other one
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                                I am agreed with you Penn. This is what makes critical hermeneutics
                                so important.... and it is also what makes history part of our focus
                                (with the other one being the meaning). For one to understand what
                                Gnostic texts mean, we must know something about the people who wrote
                                them. This gives us valuable clues as to how they expressed
                                themselves, and what they meant to communicate. Of course,
                                understanding Gnosticism is not about getting stuck in dusty old
                                manuscripts, but we certainly want to understand what foundation
                                these old texts were trying to communicate.

                                PMCV

                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                > MM PMCV
                                >
                                > And then there's the ole how have I interpreted what I've read bit.
                                Many
                                > factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we
                                interepret
                                > in a way which we want to interpret rather than what was intended
                                to be
                                > said.
                                >
                                > MP
                                > Penn
                                >
                                > --
                                > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in
                                it; and
                                > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                >
                                > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                >
                                >
                                > > Sarutobi
                                > >
                                > > You state....
                                > >
                                > > "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                > > truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                > > follow"
                                > >
                                > > The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
                                > > Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you
                                are
                                > > looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.
                                > >
                                > > There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the
                                way
                                > > it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
                                > > the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
                                > > you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
                                > > do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are
                                viewing
                                > > Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
                                > > meant to over-ride.
                                > >
                                > > You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to
                                look
                                > > in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
                                > > though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of
                                the
                                > > myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
                                > > perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
                                > > you have.
                                > >
                                > > This, of course, is a seperate topic.
                                > >
                                > > PMCV
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > >
                                > >
                              • Ginosko
                                MM Sarutobi496 However, archeology gives us yet another picture which is at loggerheads with accepted history. At the alledged time that the Hebrews were being
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                                  MM Sarutobi496

                                  However, archeology gives us yet another picture which is at loggerheads
                                  with accepted history. At the alledged time that the Hebrews were being
                                  driven out of Egypt there are no signs of such a thing. However, there are
                                  signs of a bitter internal civil war within Egypt.

                                  Many of the Jewish Rabbion are now coming to terms with the idea that the OT
                                  is allegorical and not literal which kinda negates the idea in some sense
                                  that tradition makes it true. In fct when we examine many traditions we find
                                  that there is a small grain of truth in it, and it oft aint what one
                                  imagines it to be. Look carefully and you will find misinformation on ALL
                                  sides. No one has a complete picture as of yet regardless of what they claim
                                  so far.

                                  Did you know for example that in the original Jewish myth, Yaweh had a
                                  consort/wife. And that consort was none other than Asherah. And the basic
                                  meaning of Asherah was to do with TRUTH ;) Also that the original Jewish
                                  creation happened on four spheres or levels which the current four
                                  itterations of creation are a part of in the bible today

                                  MP
                                  Penn

                                  --
                                  Now you are going to ask me how to destroy this stark
                                  awareness of your self. You might be thinking that if you
                                  destroy this sense of your self you will destroy
                                  everythingelse too and you will be right. But I will answer
                                  this fear by telling you that without a very special grace
                                  from God and without a particular aptitude on your part,
                                  you will never beable to get rid of this naked sense of
                                  self. For your part, this aptitude consists of a robust and
                                  profound sorrow of spirit.....Everybody has a special
                                  reason for grief, but the person who has a deep experience
                                  of himself existing apart from God feels the most acute
                                  sorrow. Once we have aquired this sorrow it not only
                                  purifies our souls, but it takes away all the pain merited
                                  by sin and thus makes the soul capable of receivingthat joy
                                  which takes from a man all sense of his own being. If this
                                  sorrow is genuine, it is full of holy longing. Otherwise
                                  nobody could bear it.

                                  from The Cloud of Unknowing


                                  > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know" about
                                  > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                                  > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                                  > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                                  > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                  >
                                  > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the Jewish
                                  > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                  > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived it......its
                                  > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                                  > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                  >
                                  > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                  > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                                  > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                  > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                                  > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                                  > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                  > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                                  > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                  > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                                  > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                  > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                  >
                                  > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                  > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                                  > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                                  > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                  > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all those
                                  > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the Torah
                                  > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                                  > to think about ;)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > MM Sarutobi496
                                  > >
                                  > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                  > Gnostics have
                                  > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                  > misinterpretation of
                                  > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                  > following of
                                  > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                                  > texts have
                                  > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                  > mistakenly thought
                                  > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                  > pronouncing
                                  > > himself as such.
                                  > >
                                  > > MP
                                  > > Penn
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                                  > in it; and
                                  > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                  > >
                                  > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                  > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                                  > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                                  > life,
                                  > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                                  > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                                  > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                                  > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                  > follow........
                                  > > >
                                  > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                  > degradation of
                                  > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                  > disagree
                                  > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                  > demiurge, a
                                  > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                  > Judaism
                                  > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                  > anything
                                  > > > but evil.......
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                  > Jewish
                                  > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                                  > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                                  > help
                                  > > > if
                                  > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                  > Gnosticism,
                                  > > > that
                                  > > > > is.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                                  > see
                                  > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                                  > > > assume
                                  > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                                  > could
                                  > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say,
                                  > you
                                  > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                  > think
                                  > > > that
                                  > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                                  > > > knows.
                                  > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                  > interesting
                                  > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish
                                  > to
                                  > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > PMCV
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                                  > > > pretty
                                  > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                  > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                                  > > > > quickly,
                                  > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                  > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as
                                  > God-
                                  > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                                  > > > Father
                                  > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she
                                  > also
                                  > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                                  > > > > incarnate,
                                  > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                                  > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he
                                  > was
                                  > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                  > orthadox
                                  > > > > > churches say ;)
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Ginosko
                                  MM PMCVFLAG There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a religion Wicca is new, i.e. 1950 s. However, examine the myths upon which it is built
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                                    MM PMCVFLAG

                                    There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a religion Wicca
                                    is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is built and
                                    you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do indeed
                                    predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having been
                                    derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some 30,000
                                    years ago.

                                    Just a lil to ponder.

                                    MP
                                    Penn

                                    --
                                    O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail. For Kabir
                                    and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how is it
                                    seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can say what
                                    is what?

                                    Kabir


                                    > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old Religion",
                                    > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                    > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954), and
                                    > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                    > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are fully
                                    > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a history
                                    > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the Templars,
                                    > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started as a
                                    > medieval craft guild.
                                    >
                                    > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                    > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                    > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                    > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they have
                                    > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                    >
                                    > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish people,
                                    > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely admit
                                    > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value. Dont
                                    > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                    > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                    >
                                    > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that is a
                                    > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the club
                                    > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                    > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                    > inductive leaps.
                                    >
                                    > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively, and
                                    > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the Demiurge in
                                    > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                    > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are missing
                                    > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                    > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                    > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that have
                                    > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                    > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                    > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                    > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                    > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                    >
                                    > PMCV
                                    >
                                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                    > about
                                    > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                                    > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                                    > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                                    > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                    > >
                                    > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                    > Jewish
                                    > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                    > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                    > it......its
                                    > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                                    > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                    > >
                                    > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                    > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                                    > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                    > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                                    > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                                    > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                    > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                                    > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                    > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                                    > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                    > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                    > >
                                    > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                    > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                                    > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                                    > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                    > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                    > those
                                    > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                    > Torah
                                    > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                                    > > to think about ;)
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                    > > Gnostics have
                                    > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                    > > misinterpretation of
                                    > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                    > > following of
                                    > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                                    > > texts have
                                    > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                    > > mistakenly thought
                                    > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                    > > pronouncing
                                    > > > himself as such.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > MP
                                    > > > Penn
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --
                                    > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                                    > > in it; and
                                    > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                    > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                                    > a
                                    > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                                    > > life,
                                    > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                    > felt
                                    > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                    > read
                                    > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                                    > i'm
                                    > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                    > > follow........
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                    > > degradation of
                                    > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                    > > disagree
                                    > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                    > > demiurge, a
                                    > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                    > > Judaism
                                    > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                    > > anything
                                    > > > > but evil.......
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                    > > Jewish
                                    > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                                    > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                                    > > help
                                    > > > > if
                                    > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                    > > Gnosticism,
                                    > > > > that
                                    > > > > > is.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                                    > > see
                                    > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                                    > > > > assume
                                    > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                                    > > could
                                    > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                    > say,
                                    > > you
                                    > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                    > > think
                                    > > > > that
                                    > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                                    > > > > knows.
                                    > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                    > > interesting
                                    > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                    > wish
                                    > > to
                                    > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > PMCV
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                    > <no_reply@y...>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                                    > > > > pretty
                                    > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                    > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                                    > > > > > quickly,
                                    > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                    > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus
                                    > as
                                    > > God-
                                    > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                                    > > > > Father
                                    > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                    > she
                                    > > also
                                    > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                                    > > > > > incarnate,
                                    > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                                    > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe
                                    > he
                                    > > was
                                    > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                    > > orthadox
                                    > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • sarutobi496
                                    of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it that)......But thats Canaanite
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                      of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i
                                      was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                      that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                      Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                      truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the cultures
                                      more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                      of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                      how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                      Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able to
                                      be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                      changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                      greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                      encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                      older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                      affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew traditions
                                      are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                      has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it does
                                      to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                      Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                      religions......

                                      I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                      supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                      perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                      know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to this: "it
                                      doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or what
                                      others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                      always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and follow
                                      our path to God."




                                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                      > MM PMCVFLAG
                                      >
                                      > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                      religion Wicca
                                      > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                      built and
                                      > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                      indeed
                                      > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                      been
                                      > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                      30,000
                                      > years ago.
                                      >
                                      > Just a lil to ponder.
                                      >
                                      > MP
                                      > Penn
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                      For Kabir
                                      > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                      is it
                                      > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who
                                      can say what
                                      > is what?
                                      >
                                      > Kabir
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                      Religion",
                                      > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                      > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                      and
                                      > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles
                                      ancient
                                      > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                      fully
                                      > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                      history
                                      > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                      Templars,
                                      > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                      as a
                                      > > medieval craft guild.
                                      > >
                                      > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                      > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                      > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the
                                      Torah
                                      > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                      have
                                      > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                      > >
                                      > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                      people,
                                      > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                      admit
                                      > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                      Dont
                                      > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just
                                      that
                                      > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                      > >
                                      > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                      is a
                                      > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                      club
                                      > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an
                                      attempt
                                      > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                      > > inductive leaps.
                                      > >
                                      > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                      and
                                      > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                      Demiurge in
                                      > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                      > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                      missing
                                      > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that
                                      talk
                                      > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                      > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                      have
                                      > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the
                                      Gnostics
                                      > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                      > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                      > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                      > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-
                                      Jewish.
                                      > >
                                      > > PMCV
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                      > > about
                                      > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                      sources ;)),
                                      > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                      history
                                      > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how
                                      it was
                                      > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will
                                      be.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                      > > Jewish
                                      > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                      > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                      > > it......its
                                      > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                      without
                                      > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                      > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                      too
                                      > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                      > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                      history
                                      > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                      the
                                      > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                      > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                      even
                                      > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                      > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep
                                      into the
                                      > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                      > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                      > > >
                                      > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                      > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                      egyptian/sumerian
                                      > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                      way
                                      > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot
                                      of
                                      > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                      > > those
                                      > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                      > > Torah
                                      > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                      something
                                      > > > to think about ;)
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However
                                      many
                                      > > > Gnostics have
                                      > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                      > > > misinterpretation of
                                      > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                      > > > following of
                                      > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                      Gnostic
                                      > > > texts have
                                      > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                      > > > mistakenly thought
                                      > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                      > > > pronouncing
                                      > > > > himself as such.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > MP
                                      > > > > Penn
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --
                                      > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each
                                      person is
                                      > > > in it; and
                                      > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been
                                      a
                                      > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of
                                      devotion) for
                                      > > a
                                      > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different
                                      way of
                                      > > > life,
                                      > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet
                                      has
                                      > > felt
                                      > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism,
                                      i've
                                      > > read
                                      > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                      truth
                                      > > i'm
                                      > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                      > > > follow........
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                      > > > degradation of
                                      > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                      > > > disagree
                                      > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                      > > > demiurge, a
                                      > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved
                                      with
                                      > > > Judaism
                                      > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who
                                      is
                                      > > > anything
                                      > > > > > but evil.......
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                      > > > Jewish
                                      > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                      accept,
                                      > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                      times....
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag
                                      <no_reply@y...>
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                      would
                                      > > > help
                                      > > > > > if
                                      > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                      > > > Gnosticism,
                                      > > > > > that
                                      > > > > > > is.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics
                                      did not
                                      > > > see
                                      > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                      what I
                                      > > > > > assume
                                      > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                      phrase
                                      > > > could
                                      > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                      > > say,
                                      > > > you
                                      > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I
                                      don't
                                      > > > think
                                      > > > > > that
                                      > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much,
                                      but who
                                      > > > > > knows.
                                      > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                      > > > interesting
                                      > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                      > > wish
                                      > > > to
                                      > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > PMCV
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                      > > <no_reply@y...>
                                      > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                      learning
                                      > > > > > pretty
                                      > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                      > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                      everything
                                      > > > > > > quickly,
                                      > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any
                                      misunderstandings
                                      > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                      jesus
                                      > > as
                                      > > > God-
                                      > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                      Heavenly
                                      > > > > > Father
                                      > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene,
                                      was
                                      > > she
                                      > > > also
                                      > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                      God
                                      > > > > > > incarnate,
                                      > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                      the
                                      > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                      believe
                                      > > he
                                      > > > was
                                      > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from
                                      what
                                      > > > orthadox
                                      > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                    • pmcvflag
                                      The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so called Goddess religion even really existed 30,000 years ago. To add to this, while
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                        The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so
                                        called "Goddess" religion even really existed "30,000" years ago.

                                        To add to this, while Wicca may borrow mythological terms from
                                        ancient sources, it doesn't mean that it has any genuine connection
                                        to the religious practices that produced those mythologies initially.
                                        I don't know what the "Eussinian" myths are, but I have heard people
                                        state that Wicca is based on the Mysteries at Eleusis (Is that what
                                        you meant?).

                                        If I go make up a religion tomorrow, I could choose to populate it
                                        with names I got from JRR Tolkien, or with names I got from Homer....
                                        the notion that I incedentally decide to use the name from Homer
                                        instead of Tolkien somehow gives my new religion a pre-Christian
                                        lineage is simply not true.

                                        This doesn't mean that Wicca has no value to it's followers. My only
                                        point to Sarutobi (since the practice of Wicca is outside the focus
                                        of this club) is that historical observation often disagrees with
                                        traditional legends about the origins of religions beliefs. I
                                        maintain that point still.

                                        PMCV

                                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                        > MM PMCVFLAG
                                        >
                                        > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                        religion Wicca
                                        > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                        built and
                                        > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                        indeed
                                        > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                        been
                                        > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                        30,000
                                        > years ago.
                                        >
                                        > Just a lil to ponder.
                                        >
                                        > MP
                                        > Penn
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                        For Kabir
                                        > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                        is it
                                        > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can
                                        say what
                                        > is what?
                                        >
                                        > Kabir
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                        Religion",
                                        > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                        > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                        and
                                        > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                        > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                        fully
                                        > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                        history
                                        > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                        Templars,
                                        > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                        as a
                                        > > medieval craft guild.
                                        > >
                                        > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                        > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                        > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                        > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                        have
                                        > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                        > >
                                        > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                        people,
                                        > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                        admit
                                        > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                        Dont
                                        > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                        > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                        > >
                                        > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                        is a
                                        > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                        club
                                        > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                        > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                        > > inductive leaps.
                                        > >
                                        > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                        and
                                        > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                        Demiurge in
                                        > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                        > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                        missing
                                        > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                        > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                        > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                        have
                                        > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                        > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                        > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                        > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                        > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                        > >
                                        > > PMCV
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                        > > about
                                        > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                        sources ;)),
                                        > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                        history
                                        > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it
                                        was
                                        > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                        > > Jewish
                                        > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                        > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                        > > it......its
                                        > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                        without
                                        > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                        > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                        too
                                        > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                        > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                        history
                                        > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                        the
                                        > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                        > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                        even
                                        > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                        > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into
                                        the
                                        > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                        > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                        > > >
                                        > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                        > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                        egyptian/sumerian
                                        > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                        way
                                        > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                        > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                        > > those
                                        > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                        > > Torah
                                        > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                        something
                                        > > > to think about ;)
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                        > > > Gnostics have
                                        > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                        > > > misinterpretation of
                                        > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                        > > > following of
                                        > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                        Gnostic
                                        > > > texts have
                                        > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                        > > > mistakenly thought
                                        > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                        > > > pronouncing
                                        > > > > himself as such.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > MP
                                        > > > > Penn
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --
                                        > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person
                                        is
                                        > > > in it; and
                                        > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                        > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion)
                                        for
                                        > > a
                                        > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way
                                        of
                                        > > > life,
                                        > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                        > > felt
                                        > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                        > > read
                                        > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                        truth
                                        > > i'm
                                        > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                        > > > follow........
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                        > > > degradation of
                                        > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                        > > > disagree
                                        > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                        > > > demiurge, a
                                        > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                        > > > Judaism
                                        > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                        > > > anything
                                        > > > > > but evil.......
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                        > > > Jewish
                                        > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                        accept,
                                        > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                        times....
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                        would
                                        > > > help
                                        > > > > > if
                                        > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                        > > > Gnosticism,
                                        > > > > > that
                                        > > > > > > is.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did
                                        not
                                        > > > see
                                        > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                        what I
                                        > > > > > assume
                                        > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                        phrase
                                        > > > could
                                        > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                        > > say,
                                        > > > you
                                        > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                        > > > think
                                        > > > > > that
                                        > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but
                                        who
                                        > > > > > knows.
                                        > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                        > > > interesting
                                        > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                        > > wish
                                        > > > to
                                        > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > PMCV
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                        > > <no_reply@y...>
                                        > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                        learning
                                        > > > > > pretty
                                        > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                        > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                        everything
                                        > > > > > > quickly,
                                        > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                        > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                        jesus
                                        > > as
                                        > > > God-
                                        > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                        Heavenly
                                        > > > > > Father
                                        > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                        > > she
                                        > > > also
                                        > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                        God
                                        > > > > > > incarnate,
                                        > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                        the
                                        > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                        believe
                                        > > he
                                        > > > was
                                        > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                        > > > orthadox
                                        > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                      • pmcvflag
                                        Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you interested in Gnosticism? PMCV ... of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                          Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                          interested in Gnosticism?

                                          PMCV

                                          --------------------------------------------------

                                          of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i
                                          was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                          that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                          Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                          truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the cultures
                                          more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                          of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                          how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                          Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able to
                                          be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                          changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                          greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                          encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                          older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                          affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew traditions
                                          are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                          has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it does
                                          to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                          Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                          religions......

                                          I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                          supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                          perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                          know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to this: "it
                                          doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or what
                                          others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                          always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and follow
                                          our path to God."
                                        • Ginosko
                                          MM PMCV I understand where you re headed at least and agree ;) MP Penn -- Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self. Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                            MM PMCV

                                            I understand where you're headed at least and agree ;)

                                            MP
                                            Penn

                                            --
                                            Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self.

                                            Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra 214


                                            > The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so
                                            > called "Goddess" religion even really existed "30,000" years ago.
                                            >
                                            > To add to this, while Wicca may borrow mythological terms from
                                            > ancient sources, it doesn't mean that it has any genuine connection
                                            > to the religious practices that produced those mythologies initially.
                                            > I don't know what the "Eussinian" myths are, but I have heard people
                                            > state that Wicca is based on the Mysteries at Eleusis (Is that what
                                            > you meant?).
                                            >
                                            > If I go make up a religion tomorrow, I could choose to populate it
                                            > with names I got from JRR Tolkien, or with names I got from Homer....
                                            > the notion that I incedentally decide to use the name from Homer
                                            > instead of Tolkien somehow gives my new religion a pre-Christian
                                            > lineage is simply not true.
                                            >
                                            > This doesn't mean that Wicca has no value to it's followers. My only
                                            > point to Sarutobi (since the practice of Wicca is outside the focus
                                            > of this club) is that historical observation often disagrees with
                                            > traditional legends about the origins of religions beliefs. I
                                            > maintain that point still.
                                            >
                                            > PMCV
                                            >
                                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                            > > MM PMCVFLAG
                                            > >
                                            > > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                            > religion Wicca
                                            > > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                            > built and
                                            > > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                            > indeed
                                            > > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                            > been
                                            > > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                            > 30,000
                                            > > years ago.
                                            > >
                                            > > Just a lil to ponder.
                                            > >
                                            > > MP
                                            > > Penn
                                            > >
                                            > > --
                                            > > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                            > For Kabir
                                            > > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                            > is it
                                            > > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can
                                            > say what
                                            > > is what?
                                            > >
                                            > > Kabir
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                            > Religion",
                                            > > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                            > > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                            > and
                                            > > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                            > > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                            > fully
                                            > > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                            > history
                                            > > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                            > Templars,
                                            > > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                            > as a
                                            > > > medieval craft guild.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                            > > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                            > > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                            > > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                            > have
                                            > > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                            > people,
                                            > > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                            > admit
                                            > > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                            > Dont
                                            > > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                            > > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                            > is a
                                            > > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                            > club
                                            > > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                            > > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                            > > > inductive leaps.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                            > and
                                            > > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                            > Demiurge in
                                            > > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                            > > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                            > missing
                                            > > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                            > > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                            > > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                            > have
                                            > > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                            > > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                            > > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                            > > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                            > > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > PMCV
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                            > > > about
                                            > > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                            > sources ;)),
                                            > > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                            > history
                                            > > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it
                                            > was
                                            > > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                            > > > Jewish
                                            > > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                            > > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                            > > > it......its
                                            > > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                            > without
                                            > > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                            > > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                            > too
                                            > > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                            > > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                            > history
                                            > > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                            > the
                                            > > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                            > > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                            > even
                                            > > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                            > > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into
                                            > the
                                            > > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                            > > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                            > > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                            > egyptian/sumerian
                                            > > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                            > way
                                            > > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                            > > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                            > > > those
                                            > > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                            > > > Torah
                                            > > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                            > something
                                            > > > > to think about ;)
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                            > > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                            > > > > Gnostics have
                                            > > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                            > > > > misinterpretation of
                                            > > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                            > > > > following of
                                            > > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                            > Gnostic
                                            > > > > texts have
                                            > > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                            > > > > mistakenly thought
                                            > > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                            > > > > pronouncing
                                            > > > > > himself as such.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > MP
                                            > > > > > Penn
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --
                                            > > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person
                                            > is
                                            > > > > in it; and
                                            > > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                            > > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion)
                                            > for
                                            > > > a
                                            > > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way
                                            > of
                                            > > > > life,
                                            > > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                            > > > felt
                                            > > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                            > > > read
                                            > > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                            > truth
                                            > > > i'm
                                            > > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                            > > > > follow........
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                            > > > > degradation of
                                            > > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                            > > > > disagree
                                            > > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                            > > > > demiurge, a
                                            > > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                            > > > > Judaism
                                            > > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                            > > > > anything
                                            > > > > > > but evil.......
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                            > > > > Jewish
                                            > > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                            > accept,
                                            > > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                            > times....
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                            > > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                            > would
                                            > > > > help
                                            > > > > > > if
                                            > > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                            > > > > Gnosticism,
                                            > > > > > > that
                                            > > > > > > > is.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did
                                            > not
                                            > > > > see
                                            > > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                            > what I
                                            > > > > > > assume
                                            > > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                            > phrase
                                            > > > > could
                                            > > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                            > > > say,
                                            > > > > you
                                            > > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                            > > > > think
                                            > > > > > > that
                                            > > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but
                                            > who
                                            > > > > > > knows.
                                            > > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                            > > > > interesting
                                            > > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                            > > > wish
                                            > > > > to
                                            > > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > PMCV
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                            > > > <no_reply@y...>
                                            > > > > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                            > learning
                                            > > > > > > pretty
                                            > > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                            > > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                            > everything
                                            > > > > > > > quickly,
                                            > > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                            > > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                            > jesus
                                            > > > as
                                            > > > > God-
                                            > > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                            > Heavenly
                                            > > > > > > Father
                                            > > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                            > > > she
                                            > > > > also
                                            > > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                            > God
                                            > > > > > > > incarnate,
                                            > > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                            > the
                                            > > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                            > believe
                                            > > > he
                                            > > > > was
                                            > > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                            > > > > orthadox
                                            > > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            >
                                          • sarutobi496
                                            yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i understand the important
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                              yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of
                                              the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i
                                              understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i've
                                              understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the divine
                                              light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                              despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                              going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                              reason...

                                              What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                              general, were the authors actually inspired by God? and are the
                                              texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make it all up and
                                              say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides to this story
                                              in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely revealed
                                              religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so any
                                              texts i should read most importantly?



                                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                              > Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                              > interested in Gnosticism?
                                              >
                                              > PMCV
                                              >
                                              > --------------------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture,
                                              i
                                              > was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                              > that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                              > Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                              > truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the
                                              cultures
                                              > more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                              > of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                              > how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                              > Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able
                                              to
                                              > be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                              > changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                              > greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                              > encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                              > older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                              > affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew
                                              traditions
                                              > are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                              > has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it
                                              does
                                              > to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                              > Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                              > religions......
                                              >
                                              > I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                              > supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                              > perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                              > know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to
                                              this: "it
                                              > doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or
                                              what
                                              > others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                              > always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and
                                              follow
                                              > our path to God."
                                            • Ginosko
                                              MM Sarutobi Basically I would agree with you, but their is an error in your post. The Nag Hammadi docs don t portay the Demiurgus as a Creator. Rather he is
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                                MM Sarutobi

                                                Basically I would agree with you, but their is an error in your post. The
                                                Nag Hammadi docs don't portay the Demiurgus as a Creator. Rather he is
                                                called blind when he awakens and seeing no one around proclaims himself
                                                creator, i.e. it's like someone saying IDIOT! when someone falsely proclaims
                                                something to them today.

                                                MP
                                                Penn

                                                --
                                                Man must be a lover of the light no matter from what day-spring it may
                                                appear. He must be a lover of the rose no matter in what soil it may be
                                                growing. He must be a seeker of the truth no matter from what source it
                                                come. Attachment to the lantern is not loving the light.


                                                Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15 )


                                                > yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of
                                                > the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i
                                                > understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i've
                                                > understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the divine
                                                > light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                                > despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                                > going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                                > reason...
                                                >
                                                > What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                                > general, were the authors actually inspired by God? and are the
                                                > texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make it all up and
                                                > say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides to this story
                                                > in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely revealed
                                                > religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so any
                                                > texts i should read most importantly?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                                > > Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                                > > interested in Gnosticism?
                                                > >
                                                > > PMCV
                                                > >
                                                > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                > >
                                                > > of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture,
                                                > i
                                                > > was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                                > > that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                                > > Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                                > > truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the
                                                > cultures
                                                > > more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                                > > of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                                > > how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                                > > Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able
                                                > to
                                                > > be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                                > > changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                                > > greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                                > > encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                                > > older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                                > > affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew
                                                > traditions
                                                > > are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                                > > has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it
                                                > does
                                                > > to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                                > > Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                                > > religions......
                                                > >
                                                > > I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                                > > supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                                > > perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                                > > know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to
                                                > this: "it
                                                > > doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or
                                                > what
                                                > > others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                                > > always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and
                                                > follow
                                                > > our path to God."
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                              • pmcvflag
                                                Sarutobi.... ... me see if i understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i ve understood it means realizing the spirit inside of us, the divine
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                                  Sarutobi....

                                                  >>>without any of the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let
                                                  me see if i understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what
                                                  i've understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the
                                                  divine light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                                  despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                                  going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                                  reason...<<<

                                                  Well, sort of. You could say that it is also partly the specific
                                                  context for the recognition of ones spirit as a splinter of that
                                                  source. Perhaps what you offered is good enough for us to start
                                                  working with though. Add to what you said though, the realization
                                                  that it is not a "Heavenly Creator". That source of our spirit is not
                                                  a "God" as it is commonly understood.

                                                  >>>What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                                  general, were the authors actually inspired by God?<<<<

                                                  That is something you will have to figure out for yourself Sarutobi.
                                                  However, I should state again, so there is no confusion, the Gnostic
                                                  concept of "God" is very different from that which most people are
                                                  used to. Therefore, if you mean "inspired by God" in the way most
                                                  Christians use that term... it is a meaningless question to a Gnostic.

                                                  >>>and are the texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make
                                                  it all up and say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides
                                                  to this story in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely
                                                  revealed religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so
                                                  any texts i should read most importantly?<<<

                                                  It seems to me that you are still thinking of this in very literal
                                                  terms, Sarutobi. I also get the impression that you are quite young.
                                                  Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I am thinking perhaps there
                                                  are some concepts concerning mythology that you are not familiar
                                                  with. It is important to understand that to some extent Jesus and his
                                                  saints are also made up. The point of mythology is not that it
                                                  actually happened that way. Just like Jason did not REALLY find a
                                                  golden fleece, Jesus did not REALLY walk out across the water. Does
                                                  that mean the stories are lies? No, in fact the stories are true....
                                                  just not in the way most people think.

                                                  If you go reading your Nag Hammadi books, and you think that Adam was
                                                  literally flopping around on the ground while the Demiurge tried to
                                                  mold him... and that Sophia turned into a tree to excape the Archons,
                                                  you will be missing the whole point of the story.
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