Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

jesus incarnation?

Expand Messages
  • sarutobi496
    hi i m pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning pretty fast since i ve come from various mystical backgrounds (druidism/hinduism) so i ll be sure
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 20, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning pretty
      fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
      (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything quickly,
      i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
      too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as God-
      incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly Father
      attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she also
      divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)

      From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God incarnate,
      or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
      Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he was
      merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what orthadox
      churches say ;)
    • pmcvflag
      Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club. So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help if you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 21, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.

        So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help if
        you told us what you have read so far.... concerning Gnosticism, that
        is.

        To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not see
        Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I assume
        you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase could
        be used quite differently in Gnosticism).

        If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say, you
        will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't think that
        your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who knows.
        Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an interesting
        ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish to
        read the Nag Hammadi Library.

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning pretty
        > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
        > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
        quickly,
        > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
        > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as God-
        > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly Father
        > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she also
        > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
        >
        > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
        incarnate,
        > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
        > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he was
        > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what orthadox
        > churches say ;)
      • sarutobi496
        well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i ve been a conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a long time, and now i feel
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
          conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
          long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of life,
          i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
          like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
          much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
          really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and follow........

          One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its degradation of
          Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally disagree
          with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the demiurge, a
          minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with Judaism
          and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is anything
          but evil.......

          I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the Jewish
          religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
          Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....





          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
          >
          > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help
          if
          > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning Gnosticism,
          that
          > is.
          >
          > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not see
          > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
          assume
          > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase could
          > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
          >
          > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say, you
          > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't think
          that
          > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
          knows.
          > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an interesting
          > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish to
          > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
          >
          > PMCV
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
          wrote:
          > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
          pretty
          > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
          > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
          > quickly,
          > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
          > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as God-
          > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
          Father
          > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she also
          > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
          > >
          > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
          > incarnate,
          > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
          > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he was
          > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what orthadox
          > > churches say ;)
        • Gerry
          ... life, ... follow........ ... of ... disagree ... Judaism ... anything ... I ll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are repairing my roof
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
            > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
            > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
            life,
            > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
            > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
            > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
            > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
            follow........
            >
            > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its degradation
            of
            > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
            disagree
            > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the demiurge, a
            > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
            Judaism
            > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
            anything
            > but evil.......
            >
            > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the Jewish
            > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
            > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....



            I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are repairing
            my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
            guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to fall
            through my ceiling. LOL

            Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than it
            does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards to
            these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
            Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
            them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
            support and guidance, there are countless others from each of those
            faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
            religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those who,
            feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
            have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite their
            enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
            terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others leads
            people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
            evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
            the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst the
            debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
            Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced to
            the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
            becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the stakes
            are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch money
            or protection of one's turf.

            If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking out
            the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left with
            a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view of
            the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one would
            have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is often
            equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
            benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
            lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond that
            notion of a personal god.

            Gerry
          • Don Tipton
            Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton) I m replying to your post as a new member, forgive me if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective of my
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)

              I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive me
              if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
              of my reply.

              I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
              Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
              I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
              District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
              work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under our
              constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
              to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
              am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs as
              a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)

              I've been to every continent during my military occupation years,
              and have written three books that are currently advertised on
              amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
              of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
              I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
              social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
              instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
              history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
              the region.

              Now to my reply to your post:
              RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
              Gnostics:
              As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
              Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
              in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained the
              Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
              prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
              Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
              from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
              Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
              yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
              a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of Shur)

              Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
              re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
              spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
              history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.

              The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of Israel
              and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
              sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
              limited.

              Best Regards,

              Don




              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:
              > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
              > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
              a
              > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
              > life,
              > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
              felt
              > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
              read
              > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
              i'm
              > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
              > follow........
              > >
              > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
              degradation
              > of
              > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
              > disagree
              > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
              demiurge, a
              > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
              > Judaism
              > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
              > anything
              > > but evil.......
              > >
              > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
              Jewish
              > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
              > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
              >
              >
              >
              > I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are
              repairing
              > my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
              > guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to
              fall
              > through my ceiling. LOL
              >
              > Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than
              it
              > does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards
              to
              > these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
              > Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
              > them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
              > support and guidance, there are countless others from each of
              those
              > faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
              > religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those
              who,
              > feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
              > have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite
              their
              > enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
              > terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others
              leads
              > people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
              > evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
              > the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst
              the
              > debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
              > Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced
              to
              > the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
              > becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the
              stakes
              > are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch
              money
              > or protection of one's turf.
              >
              > If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking
              out
              > the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left
              with
              > a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view
              of
              > the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one
              would
              > have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is
              often
              > equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
              > benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
              > lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond
              that
              > notion of a personal god.
              >
              > Gerry
            • pmcvflag
              To respond to this post in a way that is relevent to the club, let me first point out that any historical analysis concerning Moses is speculative at best,
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                To respond to this post in a way that is relevent to the club, let me
                first point out that any "historical" analysis concerning Moses is
                speculative at best, at worst it runs the risk of falling into "Holy
                Blood Holy Grail" kind of sensationalism. Of course, the real
                question is how this pertains to Gnosticism.....

                Let me then include my response to Sarutobi

                Antisemitism is not a Gnostic principle. Many of the early Gnostics
                were Jews, and Gnosticism is, itself, a Jewish Hellenic syncratism.
                If Dr Pearson's historical speculations are correct, then the early
                Sethian movement can be placed firmly in the category of "Jewish
                sect".

                I would also point out to Sarutobi, that some modern forms of Judism
                have a notion of "Demiurge" as well. The Kabbalah does not see it's
                prime source, called "En Soph", as the same as it's physical world
                molder, called "Metatron".

                We really must be careful how we categorize Gnosticism in it's
                relation to Judism, there is a lot of misinformation out there.

                PMCV

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Don Tipton" <gizzard2003@y...>
                wrote:
                > Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)
                >
                > I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive
                me
                > if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
                > of my reply.
                >
                > I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
                > Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
                > I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
                > District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
                > work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under
                our
                > constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
                > to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
                > am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs
                as
                > a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)
                >
                > I've been to every continent during my military occupation
                years,
                > and have written three books that are currently advertised on
                > amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
                > of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
                > I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
                > social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
                > instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
                > history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
                > the region.
                >
                > Now to my reply to your post:
                > RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
                > Gnostics:
                > As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
                > Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
                > in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained
                the
                > Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
                > prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
                > Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
                > from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
                > Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
                > yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
                > a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of
                Shur)
                >
                > Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
                > re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
                > spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
                > history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.
                >
                > The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of
                Israel
                > and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
                > sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
                > limited.
                >
                > Best Regards,
                >
                > Don
              • pmcvflag
                Sarutobi You state.... i ve read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i m really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sarutobi

                  You state....

                  "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                  truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                  follow"

                  The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
                  Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you are
                  looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.

                  There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the way
                  it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
                  the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
                  you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
                  do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are viewing
                  Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
                  meant to over-ride.

                  You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to look
                  in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
                  though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of the
                  myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
                  perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
                  you have.

                  This, of course, is a seperate topic.

                  PMCV
                • walkinginclogs@aol.com
                  Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or did they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had problems
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or did
                    they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had
                    problems with the fact that it said that God had the Israelites kill out the
                    residents of the Promised Land, in order to make room for them. It said his reason
                    was that they worshipped false gods. But were they even given a chance to know
                    who the true God was? Sounds much like what we did to the American Indians.
                  • Penndragon
                    MM Sarutobi496 Gnosticism itself doesn t degrade the Jewish God. However many Gnostics have come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      MM Sarutobi496

                      Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many Gnostics have
                      come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a misinterpretation of
                      the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind following of
                      the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic texts have
                      YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who mistakenly thought
                      he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for pronouncing
                      himself as such.

                      MP
                      Penn

                      --
                      The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                      so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                      Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                      > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                      > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                      > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of life,
                      > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                      > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                      > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                      > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and follow........
                      >
                      > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its degradation of
                      > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally disagree
                      > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the demiurge, a
                      > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with Judaism
                      > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is anything
                      > but evil.......
                      >
                      > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the Jewish
                      > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                      > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                      > >
                      > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would help
                      > if
                      > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning Gnosticism,
                      > that
                      > > is.
                      > >
                      > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not see
                      > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                      > assume
                      > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase could
                      > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                      > >
                      > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say, you
                      > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't think
                      > that
                      > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                      > knows.
                      > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an interesting
                      > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish to
                      > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                      > >
                      > > PMCV
                      > >
                      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                      > pretty
                      > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                      > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                      > > quickly,
                      > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                      > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as God-
                      > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                      > Father
                      > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she also
                      > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                      > > >
                      > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                      > > incarnate,
                      > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                      > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he was
                      > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what orthadox
                      > > > churches say ;)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Penndragon
                      MM Don Actually it doesn t make for a false religion. Judaic in the sense of the Jewish people of which Arron was supposed to be. So in this sense the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        MM Don

                        Actually it doesn't make for a false religion. Judaic in the sense of the
                        Jewish people of which Arron was supposed to be. So in this sense the
                        preisthood of Arron is still a judaic preisthood. However another point is
                        that Moses and Arron as they appear in the bible seem to be purely
                        allegorical characters, i.e. they never existed in real life.

                        MP
                        Penn

                        --
                        The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                        so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                        Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa



                        > Hi Gerry & All: (Don Tipton)
                        >
                        > I'm replying to your post as a new member, forgive me
                        > if I tell you who & what I am first to let you see the perspective
                        > of my reply.
                        >
                        > I am a 72 yr old coot that spent his lifetime as an American
                        > Military Intelligence Agent from 1948 - 1984. During this period
                        > I 'clandestinely' was assigned to be an agent of the law as a
                        > District Attorney Investigator for 15 yrs to survey if intelligence
                        > work and the law are/was compatible or could work together under our
                        > constitution. (I don't know what they decided) I have a credential
                        > to teach public school from the 1st grade to college level courses,
                        > am in very good health, married with one daughter who spent 7 yrs as
                        > a paratrooper in the 82nd airborne. (US Army)
                        >
                        > I've been to every continent during my military occupation years,
                        > and have written three books that are currently advertised on
                        > amazon.com & Barnes & Noble.com and a biography titled 'the Making
                        > of a Spy' published by Infinity at www.buybooksontheweb.com.
                        > I am an arch-consrvative in most ways but there are areas regarding
                        > social justice that I lean towards bettering the system by
                        > instituting needed reforms. My area of competence is about ancient
                        > history of the Middleast. Two of my books are about the people of
                        > the region.
                        >
                        > Now to my reply to your post:
                        > RE: Degradation of Judaism by the
                        > Gnostics:
                        > As a student of ancient middleast history I too revile
                        > Judaism as a 'partially false' religion. Moses, the greatest figure
                        > in Judaic lore did not ordain the Judaic Priesthood, he ordained the
                        > Priesthood of Aaron. This makes Judaism a false religion, and I can
                        > prove that by historic and Liturgical evidence, and Literary
                        > Criticism techniques. The Judaic Tribes were big trouble for Moses
                        > from the beginning of the Exodus period and they were part of the
                        > Egyptian Temple of Thebes Priesthood while they were in Egypt. (410
                        > yrs) (Inter-marriage produced half Egyptian/Judaic Priests that led
                        > a rebellion against Moses time after time in the Wilderness of Shur)
                        >
                        > Aaron was the only legitimate priest of the Hebrews. The Judaics
                        > re-wrote the history of their past in the Genesis book after they
                        > spent 70 yrs in Exile in Babylon, and weaved a bit of mesopotamian
                        > history and lore in at the same time to mitigagte Moses Laws.
                        >
                        > The Judaics blamed the priesthood of Aaron for the fall of Israel
                        > and led a Tannim Group to change Hebrewism to Judaism, which they
                        > sucessfully did, in 500 yrs. There ios much more, but time is
                        > limited.
                        >
                        > Best Regards,
                        >
                        > Don
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                        > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                        > a
                        > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                        > > life,
                        > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                        > felt
                        > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                        > read
                        > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                        > i'm
                        > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                        > > follow........
                        > > >
                        > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                        > degradation
                        > > of
                        > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                        > > disagree
                        > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                        > demiurge, a
                        > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                        > > Judaism
                        > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                        > > anything
                        > > > but evil.......
                        > > >
                        > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                        > Jewish
                        > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                        > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I'll have to keep this brief, mostly because some guys are
                        > repairing
                        > > my roof right now, and the ruckus is grating on my last nerve. I
                        > > guess I get extra jittery when I anticipate someone's about to
                        > fall
                        > > through my ceiling. LOL
                        > >
                        > > Anyway, I don't see that Gnosticism degrades Judaism any more than
                        > it
                        > > does Christianity or Islam. What is most apparent, with regards
                        > to
                        > > these varying interpretations of the God of Abraham, is that
                        > > Gnosticism *is* at odds with a literalist understanding of each of
                        > > them. IOW, as you mentioned from your own experience of finding
                        > > support and guidance, there are countless others from each of
                        > those
                        > > faiths who have similarly derived positive benefits from their
                        > > religion. At the same time, however, there have also been those
                        > who,
                        > > feeling as if they are part of a "chosen" people (and that others
                        > > have fallen short), have enlisted the aid of their god to smite
                        > their
                        > > enemies. Even when not actively engaged in waging either war or
                        > > terrorism, the belief that one's god is superior to all others
                        > leads
                        > > people to exclude those very adherents. This mentality is quite
                        > > evident today with the virtual schism within various churches over
                        > > the issue of homosexuality and women's clerical roles, or amidst
                        > the
                        > > debate in Alabama over the appropriateness of promoting the Ten
                        > > Commandments on government grounds. When spirituality is reduced
                        > to
                        > > the belief that "my god's better than your god," then religion
                        > > becomes little more than playground bullying. Of course, the
                        > stakes
                        > > are higher in the adult world than possible forfeiture of lunch
                        > money
                        > > or protection of one's turf.
                        > >
                        > > If one approaches a religious path with the intention of picking
                        > out
                        > > the feel-good elements and discarding the rest, then one is left
                        > with
                        > > a limited view of what, for Gnostics, is an *already* limited view
                        > of
                        > > the ultimate reality. In order *not* to appear eclectic, one
                        > would
                        > > have to recognize the vengeance and wrath of such a god as is
                        > often
                        > > equated with the demiurge, along with his capricious love and
                        > > benevolence. In such recognition, the obvious paradox often helps
                        > > lead one to an understanding that there must be something beyond
                        > that
                        > > notion of a personal god.
                        > >
                        > > Gerry
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Penndragon
                        MM PMCV And then there s the ole how have I interpreted what I ve read bit. Many factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we interepret in
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          MM PMCV

                          And then there's the ole how have I interpreted what I've read bit. Many
                          factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we interepret
                          in a way which we want to interpret rather than what was intended to be
                          said.

                          MP
                          Penn

                          --
                          The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                          so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                          Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                          > Sarutobi
                          >
                          > You state....
                          >
                          > "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                          > truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                          > follow"
                          >
                          > The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
                          > Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you are
                          > looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.
                          >
                          > There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the way
                          > it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
                          > the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
                          > you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
                          > do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are viewing
                          > Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
                          > meant to over-ride.
                          >
                          > You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to look
                          > in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
                          > though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of the
                          > myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
                          > perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
                          > you have.
                          >
                          > This, of course, is a seperate topic.
                          >
                          > PMCV
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • Penndragon
                          MM my friend No, I don t think they were ever slaves there. Unwanted immigrants maybe. My understanding is that the entire bible is a set of allegories and not
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 23, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            MM my friend

                            No, I don't think they were ever slaves there. Unwanted immigrants maybe. My
                            understanding is that the entire bible is a set of allegories and not
                            literal history.

                            MP
                            Penn

                            --
                            The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in it; and
                            so every person in the Universe is the Universe.

                            Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa


                            > Do you think that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt as Genesis says, or
                            did
                            > they just make this up so that people would feel sorry for them? I had
                            > problems with the fact that it said that God had the Israelites kill out
                            the
                            > residents of the Promised Land, in order to make room for them. It said
                            his reason
                            > was that they worshipped false gods. But were they even given a chance to
                            know
                            > who the true God was? Sounds much like what we did to the American
                            Indians.
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                          • sarutobi496
                            in reply to all the historians out there who claim they know about Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)), the Jewish people have
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know" about
                              Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                              the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                              of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                              in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.

                              there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the Jewish
                              Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                              conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived it......its
                              actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                              the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.

                              i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                              people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                              fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                              research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                              and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                              mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                              gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                              the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                              gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                              gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                              instead of downright anti-yahwehism......

                              perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                              Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                              civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                              to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                              mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all those
                              surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the Torah
                              is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                              to think about ;)


                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                              wrote:
                              > MM Sarutobi496
                              >
                              > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                              Gnostics have
                              > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                              misinterpretation of
                              > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                              following of
                              > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                              texts have
                              > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                              mistakenly thought
                              > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                              pronouncing
                              > himself as such.
                              >
                              > MP
                              > Penn
                              >
                              > --
                              > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                              in it; and
                              > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                              >
                              > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                              >
                              >
                              > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                              > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                              > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                              life,
                              > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                              > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                              > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                              > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                              follow........
                              > >
                              > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                              degradation of
                              > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                              disagree
                              > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                              demiurge, a
                              > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                              Judaism
                              > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                              anything
                              > > but evil.......
                              > >
                              > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                              Jewish
                              > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                              > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                              > > >
                              > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                              help
                              > > if
                              > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                              Gnosticism,
                              > > that
                              > > > is.
                              > > >
                              > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                              see
                              > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                              > > assume
                              > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                              could
                              > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                              > > >
                              > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say,
                              you
                              > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                              think
                              > > that
                              > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                              > > knows.
                              > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                              interesting
                              > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish
                              to
                              > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                              > > >
                              > > > PMCV
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                              > > pretty
                              > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                              > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                              > > > quickly,
                              > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                              > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as
                              God-
                              > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                              > > Father
                              > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she
                              also
                              > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                              > > > incarnate,
                              > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                              > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he
                              was
                              > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                              orthadox
                              > > > > churches say ;)
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                            • pmcvflag
                              Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the Old Religion , and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a completely modern invention
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old Religion",
                                and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954), and
                                almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are fully
                                aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a history
                                that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the Templars,
                                or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started as a
                                medieval craft guild.

                                Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they have
                                no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.

                                On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish people,
                                just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely admit
                                that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value. Dont
                                misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                it's value is not on the literal level.

                                We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that is a
                                primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the club
                                is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                inductive leaps.

                                Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively, and
                                it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the Demiurge in
                                a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are missing
                                the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that have
                                him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.

                                PMCV

                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                about
                                > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                                > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                                > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                                > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                >
                                > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                Jewish
                                > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                it......its
                                > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                                > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                >
                                > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                                > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                                > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                                > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                                > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                                > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                >
                                > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                                > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                                > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                those
                                > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                Torah
                                > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                                > to think about ;)
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > MM Sarutobi496
                                > >
                                > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                > Gnostics have
                                > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                > misinterpretation of
                                > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                > following of
                                > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                                > texts have
                                > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                > mistakenly thought
                                > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                > pronouncing
                                > > himself as such.
                                > >
                                > > MP
                                > > Penn
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                                > in it; and
                                > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                > >
                                > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                                a
                                > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                                > life,
                                > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                felt
                                > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                read
                                > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                                i'm
                                > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                > follow........
                                > > >
                                > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                > degradation of
                                > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                > disagree
                                > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                > demiurge, a
                                > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                > Judaism
                                > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                > anything
                                > > > but evil.......
                                > > >
                                > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                > Jewish
                                > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                                > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                                > help
                                > > > if
                                > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                > Gnosticism,
                                > > > that
                                > > > > is.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                                > see
                                > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                                > > > assume
                                > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                                > could
                                > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                say,
                                > you
                                > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                > think
                                > > > that
                                > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                                > > > knows.
                                > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                > interesting
                                > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                wish
                                > to
                                > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > PMCV
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                <no_reply@y...>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                                > > > pretty
                                > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                                > > > > quickly,
                                > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus
                                as
                                > God-
                                > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                                > > > Father
                                > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                she
                                > also
                                > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                                > > > > incarnate,
                                > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                                > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe
                                he
                                > was
                                > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                > orthadox
                                > > > > > churches say ;)
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > >
                                > > >
                              • pmcvflag
                                I am agreed with you Penn. This is what makes critical hermeneutics so important.... and it is also what makes history part of our focus (with the other one
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I am agreed with you Penn. This is what makes critical hermeneutics
                                  so important.... and it is also what makes history part of our focus
                                  (with the other one being the meaning). For one to understand what
                                  Gnostic texts mean, we must know something about the people who wrote
                                  them. This gives us valuable clues as to how they expressed
                                  themselves, and what they meant to communicate. Of course,
                                  understanding Gnosticism is not about getting stuck in dusty old
                                  manuscripts, but we certainly want to understand what foundation
                                  these old texts were trying to communicate.

                                  PMCV

                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                  > MM PMCV
                                  >
                                  > And then there's the ole how have I interpreted what I've read bit.
                                  Many
                                  > factors contribute to how we understand something. Oft times we
                                  interepret
                                  > in a way which we want to interpret rather than what was intended
                                  to be
                                  > said.
                                  >
                                  > MP
                                  > Penn
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is in
                                  it; and
                                  > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                  >
                                  > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Sarutobi
                                  > >
                                  > > You state....
                                  > >
                                  > > "i've read much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                  > > truth i'm really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                  > > follow"
                                  > >
                                  > > The question here becomes, not whether you have read enough about
                                  > > Gnosticism, but whether what you read has been accurate. If you
                                  are
                                  > > looking to "believe and follow" you have come to the wrong place.
                                  > >
                                  > > There are some very important reasons that the cosmology is the
                                  way
                                  > > it is in Gnosticism, and if you find it "difficult to accept" then
                                  > > the very notion of needing to simply believe it shows that perhaps
                                  > > you don't understand Gnosticism as well as you keep telling us you
                                  > > do. Not to offend you, just to point out that I think you are
                                  viewing
                                  > > Gnosticism in exactly the terms that the whole point of Gnosticism
                                  > > meant to over-ride.
                                  > >
                                  > > You say you have "looked up" for guidance, the point here is to
                                  look
                                  > > in a completely different direction for guidance. To start with
                                  > > though, it is important that you have a concept of the MEANING of
                                  the
                                  > > myths we are talking about. They are allegories, and I believe
                                  > > perhaps you have not understood thier point as well as you believe
                                  > > you have.
                                  > >
                                  > > This, of course, is a seperate topic.
                                  > >
                                  > > PMCV
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                • Ginosko
                                  MM Sarutobi496 However, archeology gives us yet another picture which is at loggerheads with accepted history. At the alledged time that the Hebrews were being
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    MM Sarutobi496

                                    However, archeology gives us yet another picture which is at loggerheads
                                    with accepted history. At the alledged time that the Hebrews were being
                                    driven out of Egypt there are no signs of such a thing. However, there are
                                    signs of a bitter internal civil war within Egypt.

                                    Many of the Jewish Rabbion are now coming to terms with the idea that the OT
                                    is allegorical and not literal which kinda negates the idea in some sense
                                    that tradition makes it true. In fct when we examine many traditions we find
                                    that there is a small grain of truth in it, and it oft aint what one
                                    imagines it to be. Look carefully and you will find misinformation on ALL
                                    sides. No one has a complete picture as of yet regardless of what they claim
                                    so far.

                                    Did you know for example that in the original Jewish myth, Yaweh had a
                                    consort/wife. And that consort was none other than Asherah. And the basic
                                    meaning of Asherah was to do with TRUTH ;) Also that the original Jewish
                                    creation happened on four spheres or levels which the current four
                                    itterations of creation are a part of in the bible today

                                    MP
                                    Penn

                                    --
                                    Now you are going to ask me how to destroy this stark
                                    awareness of your self. You might be thinking that if you
                                    destroy this sense of your self you will destroy
                                    everythingelse too and you will be right. But I will answer
                                    this fear by telling you that without a very special grace
                                    from God and without a particular aptitude on your part,
                                    you will never beable to get rid of this naked sense of
                                    self. For your part, this aptitude consists of a robust and
                                    profound sorrow of spirit.....Everybody has a special
                                    reason for grief, but the person who has a deep experience
                                    of himself existing apart from God feels the most acute
                                    sorrow. Once we have aquired this sorrow it not only
                                    purifies our souls, but it takes away all the pain merited
                                    by sin and thus makes the soul capable of receivingthat joy
                                    which takes from a man all sense of his own being. If this
                                    sorrow is genuine, it is full of holy longing. Otherwise
                                    nobody could bear it.

                                    from The Cloud of Unknowing


                                    > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know" about
                                    > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                                    > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                                    > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                                    > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                    >
                                    > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the Jewish
                                    > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                    > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived it......its
                                    > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                                    > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                    >
                                    > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                    > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                                    > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                    > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                                    > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                                    > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                    > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                                    > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                    > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                                    > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                    > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                    >
                                    > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                    > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                                    > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                                    > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                    > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all those
                                    > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the Torah
                                    > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                                    > to think about ;)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > MM Sarutobi496
                                    > >
                                    > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                    > Gnostics have
                                    > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                    > misinterpretation of
                                    > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                    > following of
                                    > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                                    > texts have
                                    > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                    > mistakenly thought
                                    > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                    > pronouncing
                                    > > himself as such.
                                    > >
                                    > > MP
                                    > > Penn
                                    > >
                                    > > --
                                    > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                                    > in it; and
                                    > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                    > >
                                    > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                    > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for a
                                    > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                                    > life,
                                    > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has felt
                                    > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've read
                                    > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth i'm
                                    > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                    > follow........
                                    > > >
                                    > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                    > degradation of
                                    > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                    > disagree
                                    > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                    > demiurge, a
                                    > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                    > Judaism
                                    > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                    > anything
                                    > > > but evil.......
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                    > Jewish
                                    > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                                    > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                                    > help
                                    > > > if
                                    > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                    > Gnosticism,
                                    > > > that
                                    > > > > is.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                                    > see
                                    > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                                    > > > assume
                                    > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                                    > could
                                    > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you say,
                                    > you
                                    > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                    > think
                                    > > > that
                                    > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                                    > > > knows.
                                    > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                    > interesting
                                    > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may wish
                                    > to
                                    > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > PMCV
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                                    > > > pretty
                                    > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                    > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                                    > > > > quickly,
                                    > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                    > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus as
                                    > God-
                                    > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                                    > > > Father
                                    > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was she
                                    > also
                                    > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                                    > > > > incarnate,
                                    > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                                    > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe he
                                    > was
                                    > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                    > orthadox
                                    > > > > > churches say ;)
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Ginosko
                                    MM PMCVFLAG There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a religion Wicca is new, i.e. 1950 s. However, examine the myths upon which it is built
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 24, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      MM PMCVFLAG

                                      There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a religion Wicca
                                      is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is built and
                                      you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do indeed
                                      predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having been
                                      derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some 30,000
                                      years ago.

                                      Just a lil to ponder.

                                      MP
                                      Penn

                                      --
                                      O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail. For Kabir
                                      and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how is it
                                      seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can say what
                                      is what?

                                      Kabir


                                      > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old Religion",
                                      > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                      > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954), and
                                      > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                      > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are fully
                                      > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a history
                                      > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the Templars,
                                      > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started as a
                                      > medieval craft guild.
                                      >
                                      > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                      > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                      > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                      > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they have
                                      > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                      >
                                      > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish people,
                                      > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely admit
                                      > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value. Dont
                                      > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                      > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                      >
                                      > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that is a
                                      > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the club
                                      > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                      > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                      > inductive leaps.
                                      >
                                      > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively, and
                                      > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the Demiurge in
                                      > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                      > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are missing
                                      > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                      > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                      > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that have
                                      > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                      > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                      > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                      > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                      > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                      >
                                      > PMCV
                                      >
                                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                      > about
                                      > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim sources ;)),
                                      > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite history
                                      > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it was
                                      > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                      > >
                                      > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                      > Jewish
                                      > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                      > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                      > it......its
                                      > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across without
                                      > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                      > >
                                      > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                      > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are too
                                      > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                      > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the history
                                      > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on the
                                      > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                      > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books, even
                                      > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                      > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into the
                                      > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                      > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                      > >
                                      > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                      > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before egyptian/sumerian
                                      > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that way
                                      > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                      > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                      > those
                                      > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                      > Torah
                                      > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many??? something
                                      > > to think about ;)
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                      > > Gnostics have
                                      > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                      > > misinterpretation of
                                      > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                      > > following of
                                      > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The Gnostic
                                      > > texts have
                                      > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                      > > mistakenly thought
                                      > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                      > > pronouncing
                                      > > > himself as such.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > MP
                                      > > > Penn
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --
                                      > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person is
                                      > > in it; and
                                      > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                      > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion) for
                                      > a
                                      > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way of
                                      > > life,
                                      > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                      > felt
                                      > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                      > read
                                      > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the truth
                                      > i'm
                                      > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                      > > follow........
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                      > > degradation of
                                      > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                      > > disagree
                                      > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                      > > demiurge, a
                                      > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                      > > Judaism
                                      > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                      > > anything
                                      > > > > but evil.......
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                      > > Jewish
                                      > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to accept,
                                      > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many times....
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it would
                                      > > help
                                      > > > > if
                                      > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                      > > Gnosticism,
                                      > > > > that
                                      > > > > > is.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did not
                                      > > see
                                      > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is what I
                                      > > > > assume
                                      > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your phrase
                                      > > could
                                      > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                      > say,
                                      > > you
                                      > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                      > > think
                                      > > > > that
                                      > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but who
                                      > > > > knows.
                                      > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                      > > interesting
                                      > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                      > wish
                                      > > to
                                      > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > PMCV
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                      > <no_reply@y...>
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but learning
                                      > > > > pretty
                                      > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                      > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand everything
                                      > > > > > quickly,
                                      > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                      > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see jesus
                                      > as
                                      > > God-
                                      > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest Heavenly
                                      > > > > Father
                                      > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                      > she
                                      > > also
                                      > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the God
                                      > > > > > incarnate,
                                      > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of the
                                      > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont believe
                                      > he
                                      > > was
                                      > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                      > > orthadox
                                      > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • sarutobi496
                                      of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it that)......But thats Canaanite
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i
                                        was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                        that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                        Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                        truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the cultures
                                        more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                        of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                        how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                        Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able to
                                        be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                        changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                        greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                        encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                        older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                        affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew traditions
                                        are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                        has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it does
                                        to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                        Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                        religions......

                                        I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                        supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                        perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                        know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to this: "it
                                        doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or what
                                        others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                        always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and follow
                                        our path to God."




                                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                        > MM PMCVFLAG
                                        >
                                        > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                        religion Wicca
                                        > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                        built and
                                        > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                        indeed
                                        > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                        been
                                        > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                        30,000
                                        > years ago.
                                        >
                                        > Just a lil to ponder.
                                        >
                                        > MP
                                        > Penn
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                        For Kabir
                                        > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                        is it
                                        > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who
                                        can say what
                                        > is what?
                                        >
                                        > Kabir
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                        Religion",
                                        > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                        > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                        and
                                        > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles
                                        ancient
                                        > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                        fully
                                        > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                        history
                                        > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                        Templars,
                                        > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                        as a
                                        > > medieval craft guild.
                                        > >
                                        > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                        > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                        > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the
                                        Torah
                                        > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                        have
                                        > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                        > >
                                        > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                        people,
                                        > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                        admit
                                        > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                        Dont
                                        > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just
                                        that
                                        > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                        > >
                                        > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                        is a
                                        > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                        club
                                        > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an
                                        attempt
                                        > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                        > > inductive leaps.
                                        > >
                                        > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                        and
                                        > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                        Demiurge in
                                        > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                        > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                        missing
                                        > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that
                                        talk
                                        > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                        > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                        have
                                        > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the
                                        Gnostics
                                        > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                        > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                        > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                        > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-
                                        Jewish.
                                        > >
                                        > > PMCV
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                        > > about
                                        > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                        sources ;)),
                                        > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                        history
                                        > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how
                                        it was
                                        > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will
                                        be.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                        > > Jewish
                                        > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                        > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                        > > it......its
                                        > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                        without
                                        > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                        > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                        too
                                        > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                        > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                        history
                                        > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                        the
                                        > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                        > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                        even
                                        > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                        > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep
                                        into the
                                        > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                        > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                        > > >
                                        > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                        > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                        egyptian/sumerian
                                        > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                        way
                                        > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot
                                        of
                                        > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                        > > those
                                        > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                        > > Torah
                                        > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                        something
                                        > > > to think about ;)
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However
                                        many
                                        > > > Gnostics have
                                        > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                        > > > misinterpretation of
                                        > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                        > > > following of
                                        > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                        Gnostic
                                        > > > texts have
                                        > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                        > > > mistakenly thought
                                        > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                        > > > pronouncing
                                        > > > > himself as such.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > MP
                                        > > > > Penn
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --
                                        > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each
                                        person is
                                        > > > in it; and
                                        > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been
                                        a
                                        > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of
                                        devotion) for
                                        > > a
                                        > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different
                                        way of
                                        > > > life,
                                        > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet
                                        has
                                        > > felt
                                        > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism,
                                        i've
                                        > > read
                                        > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                        truth
                                        > > i'm
                                        > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                        > > > follow........
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                        > > > degradation of
                                        > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                        > > > disagree
                                        > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                        > > > demiurge, a
                                        > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved
                                        with
                                        > > > Judaism
                                        > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who
                                        is
                                        > > > anything
                                        > > > > > but evil.......
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                        > > > Jewish
                                        > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                        accept,
                                        > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                        times....
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag
                                        <no_reply@y...>
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                        would
                                        > > > help
                                        > > > > > if
                                        > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                        > > > Gnosticism,
                                        > > > > > that
                                        > > > > > > is.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics
                                        did not
                                        > > > see
                                        > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                        what I
                                        > > > > > assume
                                        > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                        phrase
                                        > > > could
                                        > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                        > > say,
                                        > > > you
                                        > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I
                                        don't
                                        > > > think
                                        > > > > > that
                                        > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much,
                                        but who
                                        > > > > > knows.
                                        > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                        > > > interesting
                                        > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                        > > wish
                                        > > > to
                                        > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > PMCV
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                        > > <no_reply@y...>
                                        > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                        learning
                                        > > > > > pretty
                                        > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                        > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                        everything
                                        > > > > > > quickly,
                                        > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any
                                        misunderstandings
                                        > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                        jesus
                                        > > as
                                        > > > God-
                                        > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                        Heavenly
                                        > > > > > Father
                                        > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene,
                                        was
                                        > > she
                                        > > > also
                                        > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                        God
                                        > > > > > > incarnate,
                                        > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                        the
                                        > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                        believe
                                        > > he
                                        > > > was
                                        > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from
                                        what
                                        > > > orthadox
                                        > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                      • pmcvflag
                                        The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so called Goddess religion even really existed 30,000 years ago. To add to this, while
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so
                                          called "Goddess" religion even really existed "30,000" years ago.

                                          To add to this, while Wicca may borrow mythological terms from
                                          ancient sources, it doesn't mean that it has any genuine connection
                                          to the religious practices that produced those mythologies initially.
                                          I don't know what the "Eussinian" myths are, but I have heard people
                                          state that Wicca is based on the Mysteries at Eleusis (Is that what
                                          you meant?).

                                          If I go make up a religion tomorrow, I could choose to populate it
                                          with names I got from JRR Tolkien, or with names I got from Homer....
                                          the notion that I incedentally decide to use the name from Homer
                                          instead of Tolkien somehow gives my new religion a pre-Christian
                                          lineage is simply not true.

                                          This doesn't mean that Wicca has no value to it's followers. My only
                                          point to Sarutobi (since the practice of Wicca is outside the focus
                                          of this club) is that historical observation often disagrees with
                                          traditional legends about the origins of religions beliefs. I
                                          maintain that point still.

                                          PMCV

                                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                          > MM PMCVFLAG
                                          >
                                          > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                          religion Wicca
                                          > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                          built and
                                          > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                          indeed
                                          > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                          been
                                          > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                          30,000
                                          > years ago.
                                          >
                                          > Just a lil to ponder.
                                          >
                                          > MP
                                          > Penn
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                          For Kabir
                                          > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                          is it
                                          > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can
                                          say what
                                          > is what?
                                          >
                                          > Kabir
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                          Religion",
                                          > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                          > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                          and
                                          > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                          > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                          fully
                                          > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                          history
                                          > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                          Templars,
                                          > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                          as a
                                          > > medieval craft guild.
                                          > >
                                          > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                          > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                          > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                          > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                          have
                                          > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                          > >
                                          > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                          people,
                                          > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                          admit
                                          > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                          Dont
                                          > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                          > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                          > >
                                          > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                          is a
                                          > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                          club
                                          > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                          > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                          > > inductive leaps.
                                          > >
                                          > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                          and
                                          > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                          Demiurge in
                                          > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                          > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                          missing
                                          > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                          > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                          > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                          have
                                          > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                          > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                          > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                          > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                          > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                          > >
                                          > > PMCV
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                          > > about
                                          > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                          sources ;)),
                                          > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                          history
                                          > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it
                                          was
                                          > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                          > > Jewish
                                          > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                          > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                          > > it......its
                                          > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                          without
                                          > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                          > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                          too
                                          > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                          > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                          history
                                          > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                          the
                                          > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                          > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                          even
                                          > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                          > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into
                                          the
                                          > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                          > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                          > > >
                                          > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                          > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                          egyptian/sumerian
                                          > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                          way
                                          > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                          > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                          > > those
                                          > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                          > > Torah
                                          > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                          something
                                          > > > to think about ;)
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                          > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                          > > > Gnostics have
                                          > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                          > > > misinterpretation of
                                          > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                          > > > following of
                                          > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                          Gnostic
                                          > > > texts have
                                          > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                          > > > mistakenly thought
                                          > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                          > > > pronouncing
                                          > > > > himself as such.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > MP
                                          > > > > Penn
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --
                                          > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person
                                          is
                                          > > > in it; and
                                          > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                          > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion)
                                          for
                                          > > a
                                          > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way
                                          of
                                          > > > life,
                                          > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                          > > felt
                                          > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                          > > read
                                          > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                          truth
                                          > > i'm
                                          > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                          > > > follow........
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                          > > > degradation of
                                          > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                          > > > disagree
                                          > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                          > > > demiurge, a
                                          > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                          > > > Judaism
                                          > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                          > > > anything
                                          > > > > > but evil.......
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                          > > > Jewish
                                          > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                          accept,
                                          > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                          times....
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                          > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                          would
                                          > > > help
                                          > > > > > if
                                          > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                          > > > Gnosticism,
                                          > > > > > that
                                          > > > > > > is.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did
                                          not
                                          > > > see
                                          > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                          what I
                                          > > > > > assume
                                          > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                          phrase
                                          > > > could
                                          > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                          > > say,
                                          > > > you
                                          > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                          > > > think
                                          > > > > > that
                                          > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but
                                          who
                                          > > > > > knows.
                                          > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                          > > > interesting
                                          > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                          > > wish
                                          > > > to
                                          > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > PMCV
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                          > > <no_reply@y...>
                                          > > > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                          learning
                                          > > > > > pretty
                                          > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                          > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                          everything
                                          > > > > > > quickly,
                                          > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                          > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                          jesus
                                          > > as
                                          > > > God-
                                          > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                          Heavenly
                                          > > > > > Father
                                          > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                          > > she
                                          > > > also
                                          > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                          God
                                          > > > > > > incarnate,
                                          > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                          the
                                          > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                          believe
                                          > > he
                                          > > > was
                                          > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                          > > > orthadox
                                          > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                        • pmcvflag
                                          Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you interested in Gnosticism? PMCV ... of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                            interested in Gnosticism?

                                            PMCV

                                            --------------------------------------------------

                                            of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture, i
                                            was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                            that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                            Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                            truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the cultures
                                            more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                            of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                            how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                            Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able to
                                            be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                            changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                            greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                            encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                            older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                            affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew traditions
                                            are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                            has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it does
                                            to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                            Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                            religions......

                                            I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                            supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                            perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                            know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to this: "it
                                            doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or what
                                            others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                            always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and follow
                                            our path to God."
                                          • Ginosko
                                            MM PMCV I understand where you re headed at least and agree ;) MP Penn -- Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self. Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              MM PMCV

                                              I understand where you're headed at least and agree ;)

                                              MP
                                              Penn

                                              --
                                              Every being has the Buddha Nature. This is the self.

                                              Buddhism. Mahaparinirvana Sutra 214


                                              > The problem is, Penndragon, that historians question whether that so
                                              > called "Goddess" religion even really existed "30,000" years ago.
                                              >
                                              > To add to this, while Wicca may borrow mythological terms from
                                              > ancient sources, it doesn't mean that it has any genuine connection
                                              > to the religious practices that produced those mythologies initially.
                                              > I don't know what the "Eussinian" myths are, but I have heard people
                                              > state that Wicca is based on the Mysteries at Eleusis (Is that what
                                              > you meant?).
                                              >
                                              > If I go make up a religion tomorrow, I could choose to populate it
                                              > with names I got from JRR Tolkien, or with names I got from Homer....
                                              > the notion that I incedentally decide to use the name from Homer
                                              > instead of Tolkien somehow gives my new religion a pre-Christian
                                              > lineage is simply not true.
                                              >
                                              > This doesn't mean that Wicca has no value to it's followers. My only
                                              > point to Sarutobi (since the practice of Wicca is outside the focus
                                              > of this club) is that historical observation often disagrees with
                                              > traditional legends about the origins of religions beliefs. I
                                              > maintain that point still.
                                              >
                                              > PMCV
                                              >
                                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ginosko" <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
                                              > > MM PMCVFLAG
                                              > >
                                              > > There is also misconception within your post here. Yes, as a
                                              > religion Wicca
                                              > > is new, i.e. 1950's. However, examine the myths upon which it is
                                              > built and
                                              > > you will find they are based on the eussinian (?sp) myths which do
                                              > indeed
                                              > > predate Christianity. Many of the elements are again older having
                                              > been
                                              > > derived from the ancient goddess worship as found in Europe some
                                              > 30,000
                                              > > years ago.
                                              > >
                                              > > Just a lil to ponder.
                                              > >
                                              > > MP
                                              > > Penn
                                              > >
                                              > > --
                                              > > O, Friend, Kabir has looked for him everywhere, but to no avail.
                                              > For Kabir
                                              > > and He are one, not two. When a drop is merged into the ocean how
                                              > is it
                                              > > seen as distinct? When the ocean is submerged in the drop, who can
                                              > say what
                                              > > is what?
                                              > >
                                              > > Kabir
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > > Sarutobi, some Wiccans claim that they practice the "Old
                                              > Religion",
                                              > > > and that thier beliefs are pre-Christian. In fact, Wicca is a
                                              > > > completely modern invention (started by Gerald Gardner in 1954),
                                              > and
                                              > > > almost nothing in thier beliefs are even closely resembles ancient
                                              > > > beliefs (there is a growing number of Wiccans out there who are
                                              > fully
                                              > > > aware of this, and will tell you). The Freemasons also have a
                                              > history
                                              > > > that some believe goes back into the distant past, with the
                                              > Templars,
                                              > > > or with ancient masons in Egypt, etc., but in fact they started
                                              > as a
                                              > > > medieval craft guild.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Christian history, as Christians give it too you is also full of
                                              > > > misinformation, as is the case with nearly ALL religions....
                                              > > > including Judism. Anyone can tell you that the events in the Torah
                                              > > > (and the rest of the Tanakh) happened just that way, but if they
                                              > have
                                              > > > no evidence to back it up, it is irrelevent.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > On the other hand, I have personally known a number of Jewish
                                              > people,
                                              > > > just like some of those Wiccans I mentioned above, who freely
                                              > admit
                                              > > > that the history in the Torah should not be taken at face value.
                                              > Dont
                                              > > > misunderstand... this doesn't mean that it has NO value, just that
                                              > > > it's value is not on the literal level.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > We do talk about a number of spiritual issues in here, and that
                                              > is a
                                              > > > primary function of the club. The other primary interest of the
                                              > club
                                              > > > is history, and when we say history we mean to say that an attempt
                                              > > > shuld be used to maintain scientific method... History, not wild
                                              > > > inductive leaps.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Valintinian Gnosticism does not see the Demiurge so negatively,
                                              > and
                                              > > > it was primarily Christian. Sethian GNosticism places the
                                              > Demiurge in
                                              > > > a particularly negative light, but this was Jewish people turning
                                              > > > over thier OWN view of "God". I still think, though, you are
                                              > missing
                                              > > > the point. Yes, there are passages in Gnostic liturature that talk
                                              > > > about the Demiurge as a "fool" and even have him falling from his
                                              > > > position and being replaced by Sabaoth. There are passages that
                                              > have
                                              > > > him preventing man from seeing his connection to what the Gnostics
                                              > > > saw as the True God.... but you need to understand the meaning of
                                              > > > this, both historically and metephorically, before you judge it.
                                              > > > Otherwise you are contextualizing it out of mistaken impressions,
                                              > > > which is exactly what you are doing by thinking it is anti-Jewish.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > PMCV
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496 <no_reply@y...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > > > > in reply to all the historians out there who claim they "know"
                                              > > > about
                                              > > > > Judaism (alot of that misinformation comes from muslim
                                              > sources ;)),
                                              > > > > the Jewish people have always told me a "totally" opposite
                                              > history
                                              > > > > of their people, that everything in the Torah is exactly how it
                                              > was
                                              > > > > in Moses' time, and nothing can ever be changed or ever will be.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > there seems to be alot of misinformation about Yahweh and the
                                              > > > Jewish
                                              > > > > Religion, and alot of Biblical verses are misunderstood by non-
                                              > > > > conformists who reject Jewish tradition and havent lived
                                              > > > it......its
                                              > > > > actually the most beautiful religion i've ever come across
                                              > without
                                              > > > > the mystical aspect, i've never met more modest people either.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > i've spent most of my life not believing these kind of people,
                                              > > > > people though, people like the christians and muslims who are
                                              > too
                                              > > > > fake. However with Judaism its been a little different. From my
                                              > > > > research its been very accurate and understanding, both the
                                              > history
                                              > > > > and its beliefs in a benevolent God. still i've always been on
                                              > the
                                              > > > > mystical paths/eastern paths, so thats why i'm attracted to
                                              > > > > gnosticism. I've read Nag Hammadi, and various gnostic books,
                                              > even
                                              > > > > the crazy church fathers documents of how they believed in
                                              > > > > gnosticism (pretty crazy too). If i were to really go deep into
                                              > the
                                              > > > > gnostic concept of Yahweh, i'd rather go with penndragon's view
                                              > > > > instead of downright anti-yahwehism......
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > perhaps its all the other way around, just perhaps, that the
                                              > > > > Abrahamic faith in God was the first, even before
                                              > egyptian/sumerian
                                              > > > > civilization arose with their views, maybe it doesnt seem that
                                              > way
                                              > > > > to those without much Jewish understanding, but there's a lot of
                                              > > > > mysteries to be discovered..........tell me why is it that all
                                              > > > those
                                              > > > > surrounding cultures had similar stories to the Torah, but the
                                              > > > Torah
                                              > > > > is the only lasting holy book looked up to by so many???
                                              > something
                                              > > > > to think about ;)
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Penndragon" <Ginosko@H...>
                                              > > > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > MM Sarutobi496
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Gnosticism itself doesn't degrade the Jewish God. However many
                                              > > > > Gnostics have
                                              > > > > > come to see him as the Demiurgus which in my eyes is a
                                              > > > > misinterpretation of
                                              > > > > > the message. They've taken a passage which is about he blind
                                              > > > > following of
                                              > > > > > the law as it were and interpreted it as an evil god. The
                                              > Gnostic
                                              > > > > texts have
                                              > > > > > YHWH protrayed not as an Evil Creator, rather as one who
                                              > > > > mistakenly thought
                                              > > > > > he was the creator and got reprimanded (called blind) for
                                              > > > > pronouncing
                                              > > > > > himself as such.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > MP
                                              > > > > > Penn
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --
                                              > > > > > The Universe is in each person in such a way that each person
                                              > is
                                              > > > > in it; and
                                              > > > > > so every person in the Universe is the Universe.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > well my path has been anything but eclectic lol, i've been a
                                              > > > > > > conservative Vishnu devotee (a hindu tradition of devotion)
                                              > for
                                              > > > a
                                              > > > > > > long time, and now i feel compelled towards a different way
                                              > of
                                              > > > > life,
                                              > > > > > > i have moved on to various traditions but none as of yet has
                                              > > > felt
                                              > > > > > > like the "right" one. but now i've come to Gnosticism, i've
                                              > > > read
                                              > > > > > > much about it, i understand it pretty well, but its the
                                              > truth
                                              > > > i'm
                                              > > > > > > really seeking that will give me purpose to believe and
                                              > > > > follow........
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > One thing i've always disliked about Gnosticism is its
                                              > > > > degradation of
                                              > > > > > > Judaism and the Jewish God......that is something i totally
                                              > > > > disagree
                                              > > > > > > with, in the Gnostic gospels Yahweh is portrayed as the
                                              > > > > demiurge, a
                                              > > > > > > minor creator god of evil, i however have been involved with
                                              > > > > Judaism
                                              > > > > > > and its a beautiful loving religion from a loving God who is
                                              > > > > anything
                                              > > > > > > but evil.......
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > I do however like everything else about Gnosticism, but the
                                              > > > > Jewish
                                              > > > > > > religion and its God being degraded is very difficult to
                                              > accept,
                                              > > > > > > Yahweh being a God i've looked up to for guidance many
                                              > times....
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                                              > > > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > > Hello Sarutobi, welcome to the club.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > So, it seems your path is rather ecclectic. Perhaps it
                                              > would
                                              > > > > help
                                              > > > > > > if
                                              > > > > > > > you told us what you have read so far.... concerning
                                              > > > > Gnosticism,
                                              > > > > > > that
                                              > > > > > > > is.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > To answer your question; no, the traditional Gnostics did
                                              > not
                                              > > > > see
                                              > > > > > > > Jesus as one and the same as the Prime Source (which is
                                              > what I
                                              > > > > > > assume
                                              > > > > > > > you mean by the "Highest Heavenly Father", though your
                                              > phrase
                                              > > > > could
                                              > > > > > > > be used quite differently in Gnosticism).
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > If you do in fact "understand everything quickly", as you
                                              > > > say,
                                              > > > > you
                                              > > > > > > > will be the first person I have ever met to do so. I don't
                                              > > > > think
                                              > > > > > > that
                                              > > > > > > > your background in "Druidism" is likely to help much, but
                                              > who
                                              > > > > > > knows.
                                              > > > > > > > Your choice to study Gnosticism, though, should be an
                                              > > > > interesting
                                              > > > > > > > ride. To get a better picture of Gnostic thought, you may
                                              > > > wish
                                              > > > > to
                                              > > > > > > > read the Nag Hammadi Library.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > PMCV
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, sarutobi496
                                              > > > <no_reply@y...>
                                              > > > > > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > > > hi i'm pretty much new here, and to gnosticism, but
                                              > learning
                                              > > > > > > pretty
                                              > > > > > > > > fast since i've come from various mystical backgrounds
                                              > > > > > > > > (druidism/hinduism) so i'll be sure to understand
                                              > everything
                                              > > > > > > > quickly,
                                              > > > > > > > > i want to follow this path without any misunderstandings
                                              > > > > > > > > too.........so my question is, did the gnostics see
                                              > jesus
                                              > > > as
                                              > > > > God-
                                              > > > > > > > > incarnate? this of course reffering to the Highest
                                              > Heavenly
                                              > > > > > > Father
                                              > > > > > > > > attributed in the gnostic texts, and Mary Magdelene, was
                                              > > > she
                                              > > > > also
                                              > > > > > > > > divine? (maybe Sophia incarnate as i have heard?)
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > From what i've understood so far, jesus is either the
                                              > God
                                              > > > > > > > incarnate,
                                              > > > > > > > > or a heavenly god incarnated from the first heaven of
                                              > the
                                              > > > > > > > > Father.....like one of His divine sons.....i dont
                                              > believe
                                              > > > he
                                              > > > > was
                                              > > > > > > > > merely human, but i'm not attributing anything from what
                                              > > > > orthadox
                                              > > > > > > > > churches say ;)
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > > > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • sarutobi496
                                              yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i understand the important
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of
                                                the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i
                                                understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i've
                                                understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the divine
                                                light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                                despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                                going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                                reason...

                                                What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                                general, were the authors actually inspired by God? and are the
                                                texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make it all up and
                                                say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides to this story
                                                in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely revealed
                                                religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so any
                                                texts i should read most importantly?



                                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                                > Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                                > interested in Gnosticism?
                                                >
                                                > PMCV
                                                >
                                                > --------------------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture,
                                                i
                                                > was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                                > that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                                > Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                                > truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the
                                                cultures
                                                > more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                                > of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                                > how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                                > Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able
                                                to
                                                > be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                                > changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                                > greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                                > encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                                > older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                                > affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew
                                                traditions
                                                > are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                                > has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it
                                                does
                                                > to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                                > Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                                > religions......
                                                >
                                                > I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                                > supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                                > perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                                > know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to
                                                this: "it
                                                > doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or
                                                what
                                                > others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                                > always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and
                                                follow
                                                > our path to God."
                                              • Ginosko
                                                MM Sarutobi Basically I would agree with you, but their is an error in your post. The Nag Hammadi docs don t portay the Demiurgus as a Creator. Rather he is
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  MM Sarutobi

                                                  Basically I would agree with you, but their is an error in your post. The
                                                  Nag Hammadi docs don't portay the Demiurgus as a Creator. Rather he is
                                                  called blind when he awakens and seeing no one around proclaims himself
                                                  creator, i.e. it's like someone saying IDIOT! when someone falsely proclaims
                                                  something to them today.

                                                  MP
                                                  Penn

                                                  --
                                                  Man must be a lover of the light no matter from what day-spring it may
                                                  appear. He must be a lover of the rose no matter in what soil it may be
                                                  growing. He must be a seeker of the truth no matter from what source it
                                                  come. Attachment to the lantern is not loving the light.


                                                  Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15 )


                                                  > yes we have lol....alright quick change of subject! without any of
                                                  > the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let me see if i
                                                  > understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i've
                                                  > understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the divine
                                                  > light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                                  > despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                                  > going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                                  > reason...
                                                  >
                                                  > What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                                  > general, were the authors actually inspired by God? and are the
                                                  > texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make it all up and
                                                  > say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides to this story
                                                  > in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely revealed
                                                  > religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so any
                                                  > texts i should read most importantly?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > Sarutobi, now we have completely gone off the deep end. Are you
                                                  > > interested in Gnosticism?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > PMCV
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --------------------------------------------------
                                                  > >
                                                  > > of course i know about Asherah and the ancient Canaanite culture,
                                                  > i
                                                  > > was even a devoted priest at one time ;) (if u wanna call it
                                                  > > that)......But thats Canaanite culture, a paganized version of
                                                  > > Abrahamic Faith, that only leads me to believe Yahweh worship was
                                                  > > truelly ancient, even on different levels, As i studied the
                                                  > cultures
                                                  > > more, i found many other interesting things. Moses didnt know much
                                                  > > of Canaanite culture and religion, or Yahweh for that matter, plus
                                                  > > how could he have received such different messages from Yahweh in
                                                  > > Egypt so far away from any priests in Canaan? He wasnt even able
                                                  > to
                                                  > > be a prophet for he was weak and could do nothing, but Yahweh
                                                  > > changed all that! God encouraged him and raised him to be the
                                                  > > greatest prophet whoever lived according to Judaism, before the
                                                  > > encounter with God he wasnt much of anything, just a good-hearted
                                                  > > older man, but God knew better. Could it not be just a re-
                                                  > > affirmation of the old Hebrew faith? Canaanite pre-hebrew
                                                  > traditions
                                                  > > are true, but its questionable as to how it came about as well, it
                                                  > > has much more parrallels to Sumerian/Babylonian culture than it
                                                  > does
                                                  > > to Judaism. There is evidence of the Abrahamic faith apart from
                                                  > > Canaanite Paganism, and that they were two totally diff.
                                                  > > religions......
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I'm not trying to prove anything, every writing script
                                                  > > supposedly "ancient" in this modern age is most probable to be a
                                                  > > perverted aspect of original writings, we all know that, or should
                                                  > > know, but the Jewish Tradition has a saying in response to
                                                  > this: "it
                                                  > > doesnt matter if our path is exactly as it once was or not, or
                                                  > what
                                                  > > others say is true or not, the main teachings are still there and
                                                  > > always will be, it only matters that we believe its true and
                                                  > follow
                                                  > > our path to God."
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • pmcvflag
                                                  Sarutobi.... ... me see if i understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what i ve understood it means realizing the spirit inside of us, the divine
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Aug 25, 2003
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Sarutobi....

                                                    >>>without any of the expert gnostics in here describing to me, let
                                                    me see if i understand the important concept of Gnosis. From what
                                                    i've understood it means realizing the "spirit" inside of us, the
                                                    divine light manifest from the Heavenly Creator that was given to us
                                                    despite the Demiurge creating the material cosmos......it is not
                                                    going by what the church fathers created putting faith above
                                                    reason...<<<

                                                    Well, sort of. You could say that it is also partly the specific
                                                    context for the recognition of ones spirit as a splinter of that
                                                    source. Perhaps what you offered is good enough for us to start
                                                    working with though. Add to what you said though, the realization
                                                    that it is not a "Heavenly Creator". That source of our spirit is not
                                                    a "God" as it is commonly understood.

                                                    >>>What i'm not too sure of though is that of the Gnostic texts in
                                                    general, were the authors actually inspired by God?<<<<

                                                    That is something you will have to figure out for yourself Sarutobi.
                                                    However, I should state again, so there is no confusion, the Gnostic
                                                    concept of "God" is very different from that which most people are
                                                    used to. Therefore, if you mean "inspired by God" in the way most
                                                    Christians use that term... it is a meaningless question to a Gnostic.

                                                    >>>and are the texts from jesus' saints? i hope they didnt just make
                                                    it all up and say it was from personal gnosis, i've heard both sides
                                                    to this story in some gnostic books......Gnosticism is a divinely
                                                    revealed religion right? i do have the Nag Hammadi library with me so
                                                    any texts i should read most importantly?<<<

                                                    It seems to me that you are still thinking of this in very literal
                                                    terms, Sarutobi. I also get the impression that you are quite young.
                                                    Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I am thinking perhaps there
                                                    are some concepts concerning mythology that you are not familiar
                                                    with. It is important to understand that to some extent Jesus and his
                                                    saints are also made up. The point of mythology is not that it
                                                    actually happened that way. Just like Jason did not REALLY find a
                                                    golden fleece, Jesus did not REALLY walk out across the water. Does
                                                    that mean the stories are lies? No, in fact the stories are true....
                                                    just not in the way most people think.

                                                    If you go reading your Nag Hammadi books, and you think that Adam was
                                                    literally flopping around on the ground while the Demiurge tried to
                                                    mold him... and that Sophia turned into a tree to excape the Archons,
                                                    you will be missing the whole point of the story.
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.