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Re: [Gnosticism2] Mary Magdalene

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  • Thomas Leavitt
    ... From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:54 AM Subject: [Gnosticism2] Digest Number 387 ...
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 14, 2003
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com>
      To: <gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:54 AM
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Digest Number 387

      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:54:44 -0000
      > From: lady_caritas
      > Subject: Mary Magdalene
      >
      > A friend forwarded the following recent article about Mary Magdalene
      > that might be interesting to some of you. Gnostics are mentioned on
      > pages 2 and 3 of the article. ;-)
      >
      > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030811-472868-
      > 1,00.html
      >
      >
      > Cari

      Here's a letter I wrote to them in response:

      Editors,

      The author (and many others) mis-interpret the reference to Jesus giving
      Mary Magdalene "kiss on the mouth" in the Gospel of Phillip. This is
      standard Gnostic symbology for esoteric knowledge passed down from initiate
      to initiate - Elaine Pagels discusses this in her book "The Gnostic Gospels"
      as do other specialists who've studied Gnostic works. Elsewhere in The
      Gospel of Phillip, in support of this interpretation, we hear: "For it is by
      a kiss that the perfect conceive and give birth. For this reason, we also
      kiss one another. We receive conception from the grace which is in each
      other (GP 59:2-7)."

      For more information on Gnosticism and the Gnostic view of Mary, your
      readers can visit The Gnosis Archive, online since 1993, at
      http://www.gnosis.org/.

      Regards,
      Thomas Leavitt
      Founder, Gnosis Archive
    • lady_caritas
      ... Magdalene ... on ... 472868- ... giving ... initiate ... Gospels ... The ... it is by ... we also ... each ... your ... Thanks for sharing your letter,
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 14, 2003
        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Leavitt" <thomas@t...>
        wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com>
        > To: <gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:54 AM
        > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Digest Number 387
        >
        > >
        > > Message: 1
        > > Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:54:44 -0000
        > > From: lady_caritas
        > > Subject: Mary Magdalene
        > >
        > > A friend forwarded the following recent article about Mary
        Magdalene
        > > that might be interesting to some of you. Gnostics are mentioned
        on
        > > pages 2 and 3 of the article. ;-)
        > >
        > > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030811-
        472868-
        > > 1,00.html
        > >
        > >
        > > Cari
        >
        > Here's a letter I wrote to them in response:
        >
        > Editors,
        >
        > The author (and many others) mis-interpret the reference to Jesus
        giving
        > Mary Magdalene "kiss on the mouth" in the Gospel of Phillip. This is
        > standard Gnostic symbology for esoteric knowledge passed down from
        initiate
        > to initiate - Elaine Pagels discusses this in her book "The Gnostic
        Gospels"
        > as do other specialists who've studied Gnostic works. Elsewhere in
        The
        > Gospel of Phillip, in support of this interpretation, we hear: "For
        it is by
        > a kiss that the perfect conceive and give birth. For this reason,
        we also
        > kiss one another. We receive conception from the grace which is in
        each
        > other (GP 59:2-7)."
        >
        > For more information on Gnosticism and the Gnostic view of Mary,
        your
        > readers can visit The Gnosis Archive, online since 1993, at
        > http://www.gnosis.org/.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Thomas Leavitt
        > Founder, Gnosis Archive



        Thanks for sharing your letter, Thomas. Now let's see if they print
        your response in a future issue. I certainly hope so! Sometimes
        trying to convey an alternate metaphorical interpretation is an
        uphill battle in our more literalist Western setting.


        Cari
      • Mike Leavitt
        Hello walkinginclogs@aol.com ... THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST. Never saw it, but I read the book by Nicos Kazanzakis, he translated if from Greek into
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 14, 2003
          Hello walkinginclogs@...

          On 13-Aug-03, you wrote:

          > In a message dated 8/13/2003 7:57:04 PM Central Daylight Time,
          > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
          >
          >
          >> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030811-472868-
          >> 1,00.html
          >
          > I always wanted to see that movie, "The Temptations of Christ". I'm
          > missing a word in the title. Three, or whatever. Our local video
          > rental place is owned by hard-shelled Baptists, and he refused to
          > stock it. Suppose she married Jesus, and they played house until he
          > was 32? I wouldn't hold that against either of them.

          THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST. Never saw it, but I read the book by
          Nicos Kazanzakis, he translated if from Greek into English himself,
          or at least proofed it, so it is pretty true to the original. In the
          book, Jesus is a cross-maker, no less.

          Regards
          --
          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
        • walkinginclogs@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/14/2003 7:49:49 PM Central Daylight Time, ac998@lafn.org ... I was wondering, I never saw anything in the bible or the Gnostic books
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 14, 2003
            In a message dated 8/14/2003 7:49:49 PM Central Daylight Time, ac998@... writes:


            THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST.  Never saw it, but I read the book by
            Nicos Kazanzakis, he translated if from Greek into English himself,
            or at least proofed it, so it is pretty true to the original.  In the
            book, Jesus is a cross-maker, no less.


            I was wondering, I never saw anything in the bible or the Gnostic books saying that he was ever a carpenter, yet I keep seeing preachers claiming that he was.  Also, did the book say anything about his life from age 12 to 32?
          • Mike Leavitt
            Hello walkinginclogs@aol.com ... It has been too many years for me to be sure, but I think not. It has been even longer since I read the New Testament from
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 14, 2003
              Hello walkinginclogs@...

              On 14-Aug-03, you wrote:

              > In a message dated 8/14/2003 7:49:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
              > ac998@... writes:
              >
              >
              >> THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST. Never saw it, but I read the book by
              >> Nicos Kazanzakis, he translated if from Greek into English himself,
              >> or at least proofed it, so it is pretty true to the original. In
              >> the book, Jesus is a cross-maker, no less.
              >>
              >
              > I was wondering, I never saw anything in the bible or the Gnostic
              > books saying that he was ever a carpenter, yet I keep seeing
              > preachers claiming that he was. Also, did the book say anything
              > about his life from age 12 to 32?

              It has been too many years for me to be sure, but I think not. It has
              been even longer since I read the New Testament from cover to cover,
              so I don't know if there is anything in there about his being a
              carpenter, or if it is an early church story that has become
              ingrained.

              Regards
              --
              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
            • pessolo@freemail.it
              ... It has to be hold against them, because marriage and procreation are the work of evil demons. Thus it was Satornil who figured that it s the work of
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 15, 2003
                Mike Leavitt writes:
                > Hello walkinginclogs@...
                >
                > On 13-Aug-03, you wrote:
                >
                > > In a message dated 8/13/2003 7:57:04 PM Central Daylight Time,
                > > no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:
                > >
                > >
                > >> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030811-472868-
                > >> 1,00.html
                > >
                > > I always wanted to see that movie, "The Temptations of Christ". I'm
                > > missing a word in the title. Three, or whatever. Our local video
                > > rental place is owned by hard-shelled Baptists, and he refused to
                > > stock it. Suppose she married Jesus, and they played house until he
                > > was 32? I wouldn't hold that against either of them.

                It has to be hold against them,
                because marriage and procreation are the work of evil demons.
                Thus it was Satornil who figured that it's the work of Satanael,
                and Marcion banned happily married people from
                full participation in the mystery celebrations,
                knowing correctly that marriage is a sort of prostitution.
                Julius Cassianus correctly wrote that death will rule among mankind
                as long as women continue to bear kids.
                >
                > THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST. Never saw it, but I read the book by
                > Nicos Kazanzakis,

                Kazantzakis has nothing at all to do with gnostic topics.

                Klaus Schilling
              • pessolo@freemail.it
                ... there s no such thing as a Jesus of less than 30 years. Thus Marcion correctly wrote that Jesus descended at the symbolic pseudo-age of 30 from heavens to
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 15, 2003
                  walkinginclogs@... writes:
                  > anything about his life from age 12 to 32?

                  there's no such thing as a Jesus of less than 30 years.
                  Thus Marcion correctly wrote that Jesus descended at the
                  symbolic pseudo-age of 30 from heavens to Capharnaum,
                  which is hell, and not, like the churchmongers want to fool you
                  to believe, a certain city in Galilee.

                  Klaus Schilling
                • pessolo@freemail.it
                  ... it s a carpenter (tekton) for building the true doctrine, as opposed to the idolatrous temple of Zion, and for constructing the cross on which to crucify
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 15, 2003
                    Mike Leavitt writes:
                    > being a carpenter

                    it's a carpenter (tekton) for building the true doctrine,
                    as opposed to the idolatrous temple of Zion,
                    and for constructing the cross on which to crucify the cosmos of the archons.

                    Klaus Schilling
                  • George Harvey
                    ... by ... himself, ... has ... Hi, Doesn t it say that his father was a carpenter? George
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 15, 2003
                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                      > Hello walkinginclogs@a...
                      >
                      > On 14-Aug-03, you wrote:
                      >
                      > > In a message dated 8/14/2003 7:49:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      > > ac998@l... writes:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >> THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST. Never saw it, but I read the book
                      by
                      > >> Nicos Kazanzakis, he translated if from Greek into English
                      himself,
                      > >> or at least proofed it, so it is pretty true to the original. In
                      > >> the book, Jesus is a cross-maker, no less.
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > > I was wondering, I never saw anything in the bible or the Gnostic
                      > > books saying that he was ever a carpenter, yet I keep seeing
                      > > preachers claiming that he was. Also, did the book say anything
                      > > about his life from age 12 to 32?
                      >
                      > It has been too many years for me to be sure, but I think not. It
                      has
                      > been even longer since I read the New Testament from cover to cover,
                      > so I don't know if there is anything in there about his being a
                      > carpenter, or if it is an early church story that has become
                      > ingrained.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      > --
                      > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...

                      Hi,
                      Doesn't it say that his father was a carpenter?

                      George
                    • walkinginclogs@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/15/2003 7:03:31 AM Central Daylight Time, ... It does, and the right-wing evangelists assume that since Joseph was, he had to have taken
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 15, 2003
                        In a message dated 8/15/2003 7:03:31 AM Central Daylight Time, georgeatnsn@... writes:


                        Hi,
                        Doesn't it say that his father was a carpenter?

                        George


                        It does, and the right-wing evangelists assume that since Joseph was, he had to have taken his father's trade also, since he had nothing better to do up until age 32.
                      • Mike Leavitt
                        Hello pessolo@freemail.it ... That is the extreme Docetic position, but I suspect there may be something to it. It certainly would explain a few things. It
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 15, 2003
                          Hello pessolo@...

                          On 15-Aug-03, you wrote:

                          > walkinginclogs@... writes:
                          >> anything about his life from age 12 to 32?
                          >
                          > there's no such thing as a Jesus of less than 30 years.
                          > Thus Marcion correctly wrote that Jesus descended at the
                          > symbolic pseudo-age of 30 from heavens to Capharnaum,
                          > which is hell, and not, like the churchmongers want to fool you
                          > to believe, a certain city in Galilee.
                          >
                          > Klaus Schilling

                          That is the extreme Docetic position, but I suspect there may be
                          something to it. It certainly would explain a few things. It is of
                          note that John omits the birth narrative, BTW.

                          Regards
                          --
                          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                        • Mike Leavitt
                          Hello walkinginclogs@aol.com ... Maybe he was a fisherman, many of his disciples were, or a money changer like Matthew? :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 15, 2003
                            Hello walkinginclogs@...

                            On 15-Aug-03, you wrote:

                            > In a message dated 8/15/2003 7:03:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
                            > georgeatnsn@... writes:
                            >
                            >
                            >> Hi,
                            >> Doesn't it say that his father was a carpenter?
                            >>
                            >> George
                            >
                            > It does, and the right-wing evangelists assume that since Joseph
                            > was, he had to have taken his father's trade also, since he had
                            > nothing better to do up until age 32.
                            >
                            > _The following attachments have been removed manually:_
                            > (1828 bytes, text/html)

                            Maybe he was a fisherman, many of his disciples were, or a money
                            changer like Matthew? :-)

                            Regards
                            --
                            Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                          • John Presco
                            Poor Joseph, the greatest under-achiever, or failure, of all time. Can you see him at the family gathering of those who had genealogies that survived the
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 23, 2003
                              Poor Joseph, the greatest under-achiever, or failure, of all time.
                              Can you see him at the family gathering of those who had genealogies
                              that survived the captivity showing they are kin to the royal house
                              of Judah.

                              "And, what do you do for a living, Joseph?"

                              Joseph Flavius tells of those who had Davidic blood being examined by
                              Titus, their hands very soft because they did no work, he assigning
                              them to hard labour.

                              "And, what does your son do?"

                              "I'm not sure. Some say he is the king of the Jews, and others, God.
                              I can make one heck of a dove joint. Stop by the shop and I'll knock
                              a chair together for ya."

                              Jon

                              > georgeatnsn@y... writes:
                              >
                              >
                              > > Hi,
                              > > Doesn't it say that his father was a carpenter?
                              > >
                              > > George
                              >
                              > It does, and the right-wing evangelists assume that since Joseph
                              was, he had
                              > to have taken his father's trade also, since he had nothing better
                              to do up
                              > until age 32.
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