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Re: [Gnosticism2] Reincarnation

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  • Gloria Powell-Frederickson
    That s really neat... I have three daughters (ages 8, 4, and 2), and according to a few stories my 4yo has told me, SHE was MY mother in a past life also...
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1, 2003
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      That's really neat... I have three daughters (ages 8, 4, and 2), and according to a few stories my 4yo has told me, SHE was MY mother in a past life also... that is SO cool... I read somewhere that oftentimes family members reincarnate with you as family members or close friends again in the future (or past)....
      Also, I had a past life dramatization in hypnosis once.... I was trying to figure out the reason for my neck and shoulder pain....... In the past life I was a male Native American with a wife and very new baby.... I went out one day upon a horse and was captured and stabbed by Englishmen in the neck....
      I wish I knew ALL of my reincarnations! That would be awesome... I am curious as to how many Native American incarnations I might have because I do know that I have a very close Spirit Guide called Chief Yellowknife.... but that is all I know about him. (And I have always had a very keene interest in and tearful heart for their past mistreatments)... and in this life I am not Native American.... Well, I am some beautiful mix of Dutch, Irish, Scottish, Polish, and Cherokee Indian (grandmother).... I am not altogether sure how accurate this even is, but for fun I still try to figure out what I got of which heritage all the time.... 
      Oops sorry.got a little off topic there!
      Blessings,
      Gloria
       
      -------Original Message-------
       
      Date: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:12:02 PM
      Subject: Re: [Gnosticism2] Reincarnation
       
      This was an experience that happened with my daughter:  At the time she was barely four years old.  She was playing with her doll house when our cat, Shadow, came along and scooped all her furniture out so he could lay down in it.  I said to her, "Isn't that funny?!  When I was your age, I had a cat named Smokie who used to do the same thing with my doll house."  For a moment, that I can't really explain, her eyes became completely grown up and her whole persona changed as she looked at me and said very seriously, "Oh yes, I remember,  that's when I was YOUR mother." 
       
      As quickly as the change had happened, it dissipated and she went back to being a four year old little girl.  But I will never forget that experience.
       
      Peace,
      Judi

      martin12617 <martin12617@...> wrote:
      Hello everybody,

      I wanted to ask, whether someone of you had a reincarnation exerience
      of some sort. I remember a dream I had as a child that I dreamt a
      dream of someone else and I felt an overlap of mine and someone elses
      presence and existence. I have to say that this someone is me. Today
      I know that either that was reincarnation or it was merely a
      psychological phenomenon I have no clear explanation for yet.
      Martin



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    • Mike Leavitt
      Hello Martin ... One version of reincarnation in the Qabalah is that you have only three lives to make it. If you get to the third one you are overshadowed by
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 2003
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        Hello Martin

        On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

        > Judi, thank you for sharing that with me! You know that some people
        > would think we are nuts.
        >
        > I myself think I am now living the life of this I would call him
        > perpetrator, who captured my body and soul(psyche) and revealed
        > himself to me in that dream. Maybe it's still all explainable as a
        > psychological phenomenon. But I begin to think, to this extent I am
        > lucky, that I am aware of the reincarnation. Most people aren't I
        > would say. In the dream, I was 5 or so, I felt odd, I felt betrayed,
        > because in that dream I realized what I am dreaming there, this is
        > not my usual. And it was like a destiny laid out in front of me. It
        > was a declaration of a life lived already. And it was like this this
        > is what you will do. A mental rape, that is what reincarnation can
        > be. My experience. I don;'t know why it exists, and what my task is.
        > But I will have to reconcile me and the soul that reincarnated into
        > my body with God. I am praying for me and him. Since most people
        > aren't aware of the reincarnation, it happens also without any
        > precaution , not very fair. It was not necessarily a wonderful
        > gnostic vision, just the plain truth. I guess, I am not special.
        > Otherwise, I had a regular life, plenty of misfortunes and
        > suffering, but also great works and blessings, because Sophia helped
        > me where she could since my arrival here was so messed up. But I am
        > glad that I was revealed the course of things. Who knows? But it's
        > all true I am writing.
        >
        > Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
        > in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism, two things
        > happened. I understood that since the Ego is the psychological
        > counter[part of the demiurge, it is blind and creating its own
        > world, a world of mistakes, unreality...any salvation when it is
        > supposed to come won't reach us as long as we are in the Ego-state.
        > It came to me as more of a "gnostic" experience I have to say, not
        > exactly as an intellectual conclusion at all. But simultaneously, I
        > adopted this understanding and asked where am I then. And the answer
        > came you are not even here (where I was standing), you are there,
        > someplace else. And I felt that only this part of me, never the Ego,
        > could be reconciled with God. Then, I felt that I was already
        > reconciled with God. And everything was perfect. Shortly after that
        > while being in this state of understanding that a part of me unknown
        > not the ego, I suppressed it, was already "accepted" by a
        > higher being. I felt very happy. Then I was lifted up, mentally,
        > and I was afraid, so the feeling left me. I walked home. Peace,
        > Martin
        > PS This experience was also something I won;t forget. What stroke me
        > most was that I understood that beyond the curtain of the ego comes
        > salvation,. But then I felt at peace and it was an affirmation that
        > I have done good work. Maybe it's an illusion? But I felt happy,
        > because it was a special kind of welcome. The feeling went on to
        > become something different and I felt very light and I have to admit
        > as I walked I was scared because it was mentally lifting me up. So I
        > grounded it. Then it disappeared.

        One version of reincarnation in the Qabalah is that you have only
        three lives to make it. If you get to the third one you are
        overshadowed by a greater soul to help you. I don't personally
        subscribe to this, but it sounds hauntingly like your experience as a
        child. At least you have a proper perception of the ego. That will
        get you a long way.

        Regards
        --
        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
      • Mike Leavitt
        Hello Gloria ... It is said that the reason we do not remember past lives usually is because we would live in the past, and it would hinder current
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 2, 2003
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          Hello Gloria

          On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

          >That's really neat... I have three daughters (ages 8, 4, and 2), and
          >according to a few stories my 4yo has told me, SHE was MY mother in
          >a past life also... that is SO cool... I read somewhere that
          >oftentimes family members reincarnate with you as family members or
          >close friends again in the future (or past).... Also, I had a past
          >life dramatization in hypnosis once.... I was trying to figure out
          >the reason for my neck and shoulder pain....... In the past life I
          >was a male Native American with a wife and very new baby.... I went
          >out one day upon a horse and was captured and stabbed by Englishmen
          >in the neck.

          It is said that the reason we do not remember past lives usually is
          because we would live in the past, and it would hinder current
          development. When one does remember, it is usually for a reason,
          something we have to learn again from it.

          Regards
          --
          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
        • pmcvflag
          Hello Martin Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism In fact, it would
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 2, 2003
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            Hello Martin

            "Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
            in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism"

            In fact, it would be very much to the point of the club if you told
            us exactly what you viewed the "fundemental principles of gnosticism"
            to be. Past life experience is certainly an interesting enough
            subject, but for the most part one that is outside of traditional
            Gnostic belief systems. While this does not mean that it is without
            value to your personal modern form of Gnosticism, part of the purpose
            of this club is to relate or contrast or modern ideas with that of
            traditional Gnosticism.

            PMCV
          • Martin Khoury
            pmcvflag, I think one of us is in the wrong club. But as to your comment. The fundamental principles of Gnostic teaching I regard, the creation myth and its
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 2, 2003
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              pmcvflag,
               
              I think one of us is in the wrong club. But as to your comment. The fundamental principles of Gnostic teaching I regard, the creation myth and its parallel or counterpart in the psyche. After all, external events become external events through us.
              We will be reached thru the psyche. So I dwelt on this for a while, right?
              So and then the events took course. I hope this sufficies for you.
              I think you limit the purpose of the "club" by stating that we will (who is we?),
              review and evaluate modern with traditional teachings. I think Gnosis, Gnosticism is a very broad subject with certainly common elements. Don;t limit it, don't limit yourself.
              So once again, sorry about the imprecision, fundamental principles of Gnosticism I view the creative narrative in form of the myth, Sophia descending from above in search of the light and the psychological parallel of this mythologem. There are certainly other myths, they then too are part of the fundamental principles. The reincarnation you are right I admit not a universally followed doctrine or concept within the traditional Gnostic traditions. To me it is very real until I find another explanation. I am referring to my dream. Have a nice day! Martin 
              pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              Hello Martin

              "Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
              in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism"

              In fact, it would be very much to the point of the club if you told
              us exactly what you viewed the "fundemental principles of gnosticism"
              to be. Past life experience is certainly an interesting enough
              subject, but for the most part one that is outside of traditional
              Gnostic belief systems. While this does not mean that it is without
              value to your personal modern form of Gnosticism, part of the purpose
              of this club is to relate or contrast or modern ideas with that of
              traditional Gnosticism.

              PMCV



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            • pessy@chez.com
              ... Docetism, Dualism, Pessimism, Misocosmism, and Misonomianism. Klaus Schilling
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 2, 2003
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                pmcvflag writes:
                >
                > In fact, it would be very much to the point of the club if you told
                > us exactly what you viewed the "fundemental principles of gnosticism"
                > to be.

                Docetism, Dualism, Pessimism, Misocosmism, and Misonomianism.

                Klaus Schilling
              • pmcvflag
                ... Well, you may be right, Martin, in saying that one of us is in the wrong club. However, since I am one of the founders here, and one of the people who
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 3, 2003
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                  >>>I think one of us is in the wrong club.<<<<

                  Well, you may be right, Martin, in saying that one of us is in the
                  wrong club. However, since I am one of the founders here, and one of
                  the people who chose exactly what the topic of this club is intended
                  to be.... that wrong person would have to be you.

                  >>>I think you limit the purpose of the "club"<<<

                  You are absolutely right Martin, I do limit the purpose of this club.
                  The club has a specific purpose which the co-founders and myself have
                  created, and we are not going to change that purpose to the
                  discussion of Nascar, or Scooby Doo.... I am sure there are already
                  clubs for that.

                  >>>I think Gnosis, Gnosticism is a very broad subject with certainly
                  common elements.<<<<

                  Well, your definition is fine for you. However, for this clubs
                  purpose the term "Gnosticism" refers only to the word as it was
                  coined by the scholors who have been instrumental in it's creation.
                  Just as we are no here to talk about Nascar, we are not here to talk
                  about alternative layperson definitions of what "Gnosticism" is....
                  there are already other clubs for that as well.

                  Think of this club as a seminar format university class. There are
                  the professors who teach the class, there are visiting professors who
                  contribute a great deal, and there are the students who are allowed
                  to interact as long as the class stays on topic. This club is like
                  that university study format. The club has a stated purpose, it has
                  acceptable an inacceptable subject matter (and behavior), and anyone
                  who is here is here as a guest based on their interest in the subject
                  at hand, and thier presence is at the discression of the person who
                  is running the class.

                  So, you may now be asking "well, what is the subject then?". The
                  subject is specifically to deal with traditional (historical) forms
                  of that academic invention called "Gnosticism" as well as how they
                  effect our modern selves.

                  You do raise a point that is on topic....

                  >>>The reincarnation you are right I admit not a universally followed
                  doctrine or concept within the traditional Gnostic traditions.<<<<

                  To some extent we have come across this topic a few times. There are
                  mentions of transmigration in Gnostic (and realated) sources, we have
                  debated the possibility of metempsychosis as well. There are no
                  mentions that I can think of where "reincarnation" is talked about in
                  Gnostic sources though (maybe I have forgotton one somewhere). So,
                  not only is it not a "universally followed doctrine", I question
                  question if it is a doctrin that any Gnostic group believed in.

                  However, this does not mean that a modern person is not justified in
                  thier personal belief. But, there is something more. An interesting
                  subject could be whether reincarnation can be reconciled with the
                  notions of spirit seen in various Gnostic sects. For instance, the
                  belief we see in some texts that spirit is something put on, like a
                  vest, as opposed to an innate quality in every human. To take that
                  idea to it's conclusion would make reincarnation a very difficult
                  juxteposition (since those without the spirit would simply die, and
                  those with the spirit would have laready found "Gnosis" and thus
                  achieved release from the world) Aother example would be the
                  Manichaean belief that spirit holds no memory, and that it is
                  recycled. This would make the "past life" experience impossible.

                  Anyways, I am not forwarding any specific theory myself, merely
                  pointing out how reincarnation certainly cannot work with all forms
                  of "biblical demiurgy" movements. Surely there were some that may
                  have believed in it though.

                  PMCV
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