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Re: Manna

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  • Gerry
    Reply to Klaus Schilling s message #7889: As Cari and Steve seemed to have been suggesting, there is probably something to a person s intent when it comes to
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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      Reply to Klaus Schilling’s message #7889:

       

       

      As Cari and Steve seemed to have been suggesting, there is probably something to a person’s intent when it comes to the partaking of mind-altering drugs.  The same holds true for sharing wisdom through scriptures—one must be careful in which direction pearls of wisdom are cast.  Besides, I thought Plato had spoken out against the evils of the ABUSE of such substances:

       

      In vino veritas [In wine is truth].
      Proverb quoted by PLATO, Symposium 217

       

      “Shall we not pass a law that, in the first place, no children under eighteen may touch wine at all, teaching that it is wrong to pour fire upon fire either in body or in soul ... and thus guarding against the excitable disposition of the young? And next, we shall rule that the young man under thirty may take wine in moderation, but that he must entirely abstain from intoxication and heavy drinking. But when a man has reached the age of forty, he may join in the convivial gatherings and invoke Dionysus, above all other gods, inviting his presence at the rite (which is also the recreation) of the elders, which he bestowed on mankind as a medicine potent against the crabbedness of Old Age, that thereby we men may renew our youth, and that, through forgetfulness of care, the temper of our souls may lose its hardness and become softer and more ductile ...”

      Plato, Laws 666b

       

      “I am also sending twelve jars of sweet wine for the children and two of honey.”

      Plato, Letters 361b

       

      “[Wine] makes the person who drinks it more jovial than he was before, and the more he imbibes it, the more he becomes filled with high hopes and a sense of power, till finally, puffed up with conceit, he abounds in every kind of licence of speech and action and every kind of audacity, without a scruple as to what he says or what he does.”

      Plato, Laws 649a

       

       

      Gerry

    • fred60471
      ... _The ... Hi Cari, No, I haven t read that one, but I did read another book that Ruck co-authored, The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
        wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
        > > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
        > > wilderness.
        > >
        > > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The
        > active
        > > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
        > >
        > > fred
        >
        >
        >
        > Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you read
        _The
        > Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist_ by
        > Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich? They
        > offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
        > Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being originally
        > psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks like
        > they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung" version.
        :-)
        >
        > Cari

        Hi Cari,

        No, I haven't read that one, but I did read another book that Ruck
        co-authored,

        "The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries
        (Ethno-Mycological Studies, No. 4)" by Robert Gordon Wasson, Albert
        Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck

        Ruck is a Classicist, Wasson is a mycologist, and Hofmann is, of
        course, a chemist (he was the discoverer of LSD). This book alleges
        that the "kykeon," the drink that the initiates at Eleusis drank was
        an entheogen, but there is some dispute as to whether it was ergot or
        a mushroom.

        I've also read,

        "Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge: A
        Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution," by Terence
        McKenna

        Mckenna tends to favor the mushroom theory, specifically a mushroom of
        the psilocybin family.

        Also, I remember reading a long time ago,

        "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross: A Study of the Nature and Origins
        of Christianity Within the Fertility Cults of the Ancient Near East,"
        by John Marco Allegro

        In which it is alleged that Jesus "was" a mushroom, in this case,
        amanita muscaria. Allegro was a biblical scholar who worked on the
        Dead Sea Scroll translation team, but was eventually kicked off of it
        by his colleagues.

        Regards,
        fred
      • Mike Leavitt
        Hello pessy@chez.com ... Nothing is good or evil in itself, or have you gone Orthodox on us Klaus? :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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          Hello pessy@...

          On 12-Jun-03, you wrote:

          > Mike Leavitt writes:
          >> I don't know, there's still alcohol in our communion wine. :-)
          >>
          > Alcohol is evil.
          > Thus Satornil and Marcion correctly banned it from the synagogoi.

          Nothing is good or evil in itself, or have you gone Orthodox on us
          Klaus? :-)

          Regards
          --
          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
        • pessy@chez.com
          ... Orthodoxers drink wine and get drunk on a regular base. Marcionites and Satornilites don t. Klaus Schilling
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 13, 2003
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            Mike Leavitt writes:
            > Hello pessy@...
            >
            > On 12-Jun-03, you wrote:
            >
            > > Mike Leavitt writes:
            > >> I don't know, there's still alcohol in our communion wine. :-)
            > >>
            > > Alcohol is evil.
            > > Thus Satornil and Marcion correctly banned it from the synagogoi.
            >
            > Nothing is good or evil in itself, or have you gone Orthodox on us
            > Klaus? :-)

            Orthodoxers drink wine and get drunk on a regular base.
            Marcionites and Satornilites don't.

            Klaus Schilling
          • lady_caritas
            ... by ... originally ... like ... version. ... alleges ... was ... or ... of ... Origins ... East, ... it ... Hmmm, yes, there is a footnote on page 202 of
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 13, 2003
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
              > wrote:
              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:
              > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
              > > > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
              > > > wilderness.
              > > >
              > > > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The
              > > active
              > > > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
              > > >
              > > > fred
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you read
              > _The
              > > Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist_
              by
              > > Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich? They
              > > offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
              > > Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being
              originally
              > > psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks
              like
              > > they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung"
              version.
              > :-)
              > >
              > > Cari
              >
              > Hi Cari,
              >
              > No, I haven't read that one, but I did read another book that Ruck
              > co-authored,
              >
              > "The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries
              > (Ethno-Mycological Studies, No. 4)" by Robert Gordon Wasson, Albert
              > Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck
              >
              > Ruck is a Classicist, Wasson is a mycologist, and Hofmann is, of
              > course, a chemist (he was the discoverer of LSD). This book
              alleges
              > that the "kykeon," the drink that the initiates at Eleusis drank
              was
              > an entheogen, but there is some dispute as to whether it was ergot
              or
              > a mushroom.
              >
              > I've also read,
              >
              > "Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge: A
              > Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution," by Terence
              > McKenna
              >
              > Mckenna tends to favor the mushroom theory, specifically a mushroom
              of
              > the psilocybin family.
              >
              > Also, I remember reading a long time ago,
              >
              > "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross: A Study of the Nature and
              Origins
              > of Christianity Within the Fertility Cults of the Ancient Near
              East,"
              > by John Marco Allegro
              >
              > In which it is alleged that Jesus "was" a mushroom, in this case,
              > amanita muscaria. Allegro was a biblical scholar who worked on the
              > Dead Sea Scroll translation team, but was eventually kicked off of
              it
              > by his colleagues.
              >
              > Regards,
              > fred


              Hmmm, yes, there is a footnote on page 202 of the book I mentioned
              that mentions Merkur's annoyance, dismissing (but not refuting) fly-
              agaric as a "cavalier allegation" of John Allegro without evidential
              support.

              And, thanks for all the references, Fred.


              Cari
            • Mike Leavitt
              Hello pessy@chez.com ... True, but they also interpret things literally. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 13, 2003
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                Hello pessy@...

                On 13-Jun-03, you wrote:

                > Mike Leavitt writes:
                >> Hello pessy@...
                >>
                >> On 12-Jun-03, you wrote:
                >>
                >>> Mike Leavitt writes:
                >>>> I don't know, there's still alcohol in our communion wine. :-)
                >>>>
                >>> Alcohol is evil.
                >>> Thus Satornil and Marcion correctly banned it from the
                > synagogoi.
                >>
                >> Nothing is good or evil in itself, or have you gone Orthodox on
                > us
                >> Klaus? :-)
                >
                > Orthodoxers drink wine and get drunk on a regular base.
                > Marcionites and Satornilites don't.
                >
                > Klaus Schilling

                True, but they also interpret things literally.

                Regards
                --
                Mike Leavitt ac998@...
              • martin12617
                The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view these things important
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 1, 2003
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                  The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
                  does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view these
                  things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
                  foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
                  much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine should
                  have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
                  subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
                  defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered the
                  gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
                  knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
                  been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
                  awakening.Martin
                • lady_caritas
                  ... these ... should ... the ... Again, Martin, if you don t feel the Holy Mass needs to be discussed, why bring it up as a topic of discussion. Also, we
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 1, 2003
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "martin12617" <martin12617@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
                    > does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view
                    these
                    > things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
                    > foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
                    > much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine
                    should
                    > have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
                    > subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
                    > defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered
                    the
                    > gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
                    > knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
                    > been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
                    > awakening.Martin


                    Again, Martin, if you don't feel the "Holy Mass" needs to be
                    discussed, why bring it up as a topic of discussion. Also, we will
                    not tolerate incendiary comments about your opinion of who
                    understands what or who lacks awakening.

                    That said, there is every possibility that some members here who are
                    familiar with sacraments might offer some insight into the use of
                    food and drink that differs from your materialistic interpretation of
                    such.


                    Cari
                  • Mike Leavitt
                    Hello martin12617 ... You have a real talent Martin. You are the only person who can say something I agree with and piss me off. Your holier than thou, put
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 1, 2003
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                      Hello martin12617

                      On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

                      > The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
                      > does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view these
                      > things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
                      > foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
                      > much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine should
                      > have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
                      > subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
                      > defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered the
                      > gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
                      > knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
                      > been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
                      > awakening.Martin

                      You have a real talent Martin. You are the only person who can say
                      something I agree with and piss me off. Your holier than thou, put
                      down attitude is probably the reason. The content is correct, IMO,
                      but the way you put it is completely offensive.

                      Regards
                      --
                      Mike Leavitt ac998@...
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