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Manna

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  • fred60471
    Merkur thinks that manna was an entheogen. An ergot that had similar properties to LSD. See: The Mystery of Manna: The Psychedelic Sacrament of the Bible by
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
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      Merkur thinks that manna was an entheogen. An ergot that had similar
      properties to LSD. See:

      "The Mystery of Manna: The Psychedelic Sacrament of the Bible" by
      Daniel Merkur.
    • walkinginclogs@aol.com
      Maybe that s why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the wilderness.
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
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        Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the wilderness.
      • fred60471
        ... wilderness. Or maybe… That s why modern day religions are so sterile. The active ingredient has been removed from the sacraments. fred
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
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          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
          > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
          wilderness.

          Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The active
          ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.

          fred
        • Wayne
          ... similar ... Manna from Heaven, divined Joy, the magic of of a Joyous Spirit. Alchemy, Transmutation, Transfiguration, to as if by magic, Divined Will,
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Merkur thinks that manna was an entheogen. An ergot that had
            similar
            > properties to LSD. See:
            >
            > "The Mystery of Manna: The Psychedelic Sacrament of the Bible" by
            > Daniel Merkur.


            Manna from Heaven, divined Joy, the magic of
            of a Joyous Spirit.


            Alchemy, Transmutation, Transfiguration, to as if
            by magic, Divined Will, turn water into
            wine, the Material into the Spiritual.
          • walkinginclogs@aol.com
            I was browsing not long ago and came upon this native American web site where they sell payote. I m not sure of the spelling. Anyway, it says that they use
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
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              I was browsing not long ago and came upon this native American web site where
              they sell payote. I 'm not sure of the spelling. Anyway, it says that they
              use it as a fund raiser. It was a nicely-done web site. Beautiful pictures
              of their product. You were given different options. The plant looks like
              cactus. Wished I lived near them, I would join their religion.
            • Mike Leavitt
              Hello walkinginclogs@aol.com ... It would explain a few things. Good point. :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
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                Hello walkinginclogs@...

                On 10-Jun-03, you wrote:

                > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
                > wilderness.

                It would explain a few things. Good point. :-)

                Regards
                --
                Mike Leavitt ac998@...
              • Mike Leavitt
                Hello fred60471 ... I don t know, there s still alcohol in our communion wine. :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 10, 2003
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                  Hello fred60471

                  On 10-Jun-03, you wrote:

                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                  >> Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
                  > wilderness.
                  >
                  > Or maybe
                  > That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The active
                  > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
                  >
                  > fred

                  I don't know, there's still alcohol in our communion wine. :-)

                  Regards
                  --
                  Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                • lady_caritas
                  ... active ... Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you read _The Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist_ by Carl
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 11, 2003
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                    > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
                    > wilderness.
                    >
                    > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The
                    active
                    > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
                    >
                    > fred



                    Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you read _The
                    Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist_ by
                    Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich? They
                    offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
                    Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being originally
                    psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks like
                    they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung" version. :-)

                    Cari
                  • Steve
                    ... _The ... by ... like ... version. :-) ... Such substances have always been used to shock people out of their materialistic presuppositions. When I was a
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 11, 2003
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                      > > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
                      > > wilderness.
                      > >
                      > > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The
                      > active
                      > > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
                      > >
                      > > fred
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you read
                      _The
                      > Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist_
                      by
                      > Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich? They
                      > offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
                      > Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being originally
                      > psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks
                      like
                      > they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung"
                      version. :-)
                      >
                      > Cari

                      Such substances have always been used to shock people out of their
                      materialistic presuppositions. When I was a young man in the early
                      70's I also was shocked out of my apriori assumptions by a truly
                      massive dose of LSD. I have never, since then, been able to take
                      material reality at face-value. -Steve
                    • pessy@chez.com
                      ... Alcohol is evil. Thus Satornil and Marcion correctly banned it from the synagogoi. Klaus Schilling
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                        Mike Leavitt writes:
                        > I don't know, there's still alcohol in our communion wine. :-)
                        >
                        Alcohol is evil.
                        Thus Satornil and Marcion correctly banned it from the synagogoi.

                        Klaus Schilling
                      • lady_caritas
                        ... originally ... I suppose that could very well do it, Steve. I haven t taken psychotropic drugs myself, but I imagine it could be a life-altering
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                          > > > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
                          > > > wilderness.
                          > > >
                          > > > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The
                          > > active
                          > > > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
                          > > >
                          > > > fred
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you read
                          > _The
                          > > Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist_
                          > by
                          > > Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich? They
                          > > offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
                          > > Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being
                          originally
                          > > psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks
                          > like
                          > > they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung"
                          > version. :-)
                          > >
                          > > Cari
                          >
                          > Such substances have always been used to shock people out of their
                          > materialistic presuppositions. When I was a young man in the early
                          > 70's I also was shocked out of my apriori assumptions by a truly
                          > massive dose of LSD. I have never, since then, been able to take
                          > material reality at face-value. -Steve



                          I suppose that could very well do it, Steve. I haven't taken
                          psychotropic drugs myself, but I imagine it could be a life-altering
                          experience in some cases.

                          Considering all the people who have used LSD and other substances
                          without an accompanying drastic change in their a priori assumptions
                          and, conversely, the people who have experienced a change in
                          their "materialistic presuppositions" without psychotropic
                          substances, it seems to me that there are other factors necessary in
                          any case for the awakening process.


                          Cari
                        • lady_caritas
                          ... the ... read ... Eucharist_ ... They ... their ... early ... altering ... assumptions ... in ... Ha! I just realized after reading Klaus s post that the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@y...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                            > > > > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in
                            the
                            > > > > wilderness.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The
                            > > > active
                            > > > > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > fred
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you
                            read
                            > > _The
                            > > > Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the
                            Eucharist_
                            > > by
                            > > > Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich?
                            They
                            > > > offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
                            > > > Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being
                            > originally
                            > > > psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks
                            > > like
                            > > > they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung"
                            > > version. :-)
                            > > >
                            > > > Cari
                            > >
                            > > Such substances have always been used to shock people out of
                            their
                            > > materialistic presuppositions. When I was a young man in the
                            early
                            > > 70's I also was shocked out of my apriori assumptions by a truly
                            > > massive dose of LSD. I have never, since then, been able to take
                            > > material reality at face-value. -Steve
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I suppose that could very well do it, Steve. I haven't taken
                            > psychotropic drugs myself, but I imagine it could be a life-
                            altering
                            > experience in some cases.
                            >
                            > Considering all the people who have used LSD and other substances
                            > without an accompanying drastic change in their a priori
                            assumptions
                            > and, conversely, the people who have experienced a change in
                            > their "materialistic presuppositions" without psychotropic
                            > substances, it seems to me that there are other factors necessary
                            in
                            > any case for the awakening process.
                            >
                            >
                            > Cari


                            Ha! I just realized after reading Klaus's post that the very
                            occasional glass of wine I enjoy would fall into the category of
                            psychotropic drugs. Can't say my light consumption contributed to
                            any long-lasting mind-altering changes though. I also can't see how
                            a little sip of wine during communion would taint the ritual with the
                            evils of alcohol. But then, what do I know...


                            Cari
                          • Steve
                            ... the ... The ... read ... Eucharist_ ... They ... their ... early ... altering ... assumptions ... in ... I believe that you are quite right about that. In
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a...
                              wrote:
                              > > > > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in
                              the
                              > > > > wilderness.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile.
                              The
                              > > > active
                              > > > > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > fred
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you
                              read
                              > > _The
                              > > > Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the
                              Eucharist_
                              > > by
                              > > > Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich?
                              They
                              > > > offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
                              > > > Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being
                              > originally
                              > > > psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks
                              > > like
                              > > > they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung"
                              > > version. :-)
                              > > >
                              > > > Cari
                              > >
                              > > Such substances have always been used to shock people out of
                              their
                              > > materialistic presuppositions. When I was a young man in the
                              early
                              > > 70's I also was shocked out of my apriori assumptions by a truly
                              > > massive dose of LSD. I have never, since then, been able to take
                              > > material reality at face-value. -Steve
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I suppose that could very well do it, Steve. I haven't taken
                              > psychotropic drugs myself, but I imagine it could be a life-
                              altering
                              > experience in some cases.
                              >
                              > Considering all the people who have used LSD and other substances
                              > without an accompanying drastic change in their a priori
                              assumptions
                              > and, conversely, the people who have experienced a change in
                              > their "materialistic presuppositions" without psychotropic
                              > substances, it seems to me that there are other factors necessary
                              in
                              > any case for the awakening process.
                              >
                              >
                              > Cari

                              I believe that you are quite right about that. In my opinion.
                              psychedelic substances are of only limited value, and only to those
                              ready to understand the experience. For me, they served to awaken me
                              to the fact that my perceptual notions of time and space are not
                              absolute apriori givens but are, in fact, projections of my mind. I
                              have noticed, however, that many people get nothing from it except
                              confusion. Ram Dass commented that once he gave a huge dose of lsd
                              to his Guru, who appeared to be totally unaffected by it. His Guru
                              merely noted that meditation was better. Yours, Steve
                            • George Harvey
                              ... how ... the ... Hi Cari, What do you know? IMO more than Klaus. Sorry, just couldn t resist. George
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > Ha! I just realized after reading Klaus's post that the very
                                > occasional glass of wine I enjoy would fall into the category of
                                > psychotropic drugs. Can't say my light consumption contributed to
                                > any long-lasting mind-altering changes though. I also can't see
                                how
                                > a little sip of wine during communion would taint the ritual with
                                the
                                > evils of alcohol. But then, what do I know...
                                >
                                >
                                > Cari

                                Hi Cari,
                                What do you know? IMO more than Klaus.

                                Sorry, just couldn't resist.

                                George
                              • pessy@chez.com
                                ... evil drugs like wine make a false hallucination of truth and spirituality thus guiding many people miserably astray. Thus Plato said that wine is called so
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                  lady_caritas writes:
                                  > Can't say my light consumption contributed to
                                  > any long-lasting mind-altering changes though. I also can't see how
                                  > a little sip of wine during communion would taint the ritual with the
                                  > evils of alcohol. But then, what do I know...
                                  >

                                  evil drugs like wine make a false hallucination of truth and spirituality
                                  thus guiding many people miserably astray.
                                  Thus Plato said that wine is called so because it makes people pretend
                                  to know truth, though they don't.
                                  Severus represented the wine vine as an evil venomous viper,
                                  the grapes being droplets of bitter poison.

                                  Klaus Schilling
                                • Gerry
                                  Reply to Klaus Schilling s message #7889: As Cari and Steve seemed to have been suggesting, there is probably something to a person s intent when it comes to
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                    Reply to Klaus Schilling’s message #7889:

                                     

                                     

                                    As Cari and Steve seemed to have been suggesting, there is probably something to a person’s intent when it comes to the partaking of mind-altering drugs.  The same holds true for sharing wisdom through scriptures—one must be careful in which direction pearls of wisdom are cast.  Besides, I thought Plato had spoken out against the evils of the ABUSE of such substances:

                                     

                                    In vino veritas [In wine is truth].
                                    Proverb quoted by PLATO, Symposium 217

                                     

                                    “Shall we not pass a law that, in the first place, no children under eighteen may touch wine at all, teaching that it is wrong to pour fire upon fire either in body or in soul ... and thus guarding against the excitable disposition of the young? And next, we shall rule that the young man under thirty may take wine in moderation, but that he must entirely abstain from intoxication and heavy drinking. But when a man has reached the age of forty, he may join in the convivial gatherings and invoke Dionysus, above all other gods, inviting his presence at the rite (which is also the recreation) of the elders, which he bestowed on mankind as a medicine potent against the crabbedness of Old Age, that thereby we men may renew our youth, and that, through forgetfulness of care, the temper of our souls may lose its hardness and become softer and more ductile ...”

                                    Plato, Laws 666b

                                     

                                    “I am also sending twelve jars of sweet wine for the children and two of honey.”

                                    Plato, Letters 361b

                                     

                                    “[Wine] makes the person who drinks it more jovial than he was before, and the more he imbibes it, the more he becomes filled with high hopes and a sense of power, till finally, puffed up with conceit, he abounds in every kind of licence of speech and action and every kind of audacity, without a scruple as to what he says or what he does.”

                                    Plato, Laws 649a

                                     

                                     

                                    Gerry

                                  • fred60471
                                    ... _The ... Hi Cari, No, I haven t read that one, but I did read another book that Ruck co-authored, The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                                      > > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
                                      > > wilderness.
                                      > >
                                      > > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The
                                      > active
                                      > > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
                                      > >
                                      > > fred
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you read
                                      _The
                                      > Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist_ by
                                      > Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich? They
                                      > offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
                                      > Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being originally
                                      > psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks like
                                      > they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung" version.
                                      :-)
                                      >
                                      > Cari

                                      Hi Cari,

                                      No, I haven't read that one, but I did read another book that Ruck
                                      co-authored,

                                      "The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries
                                      (Ethno-Mycological Studies, No. 4)" by Robert Gordon Wasson, Albert
                                      Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck

                                      Ruck is a Classicist, Wasson is a mycologist, and Hofmann is, of
                                      course, a chemist (he was the discoverer of LSD). This book alleges
                                      that the "kykeon," the drink that the initiates at Eleusis drank was
                                      an entheogen, but there is some dispute as to whether it was ergot or
                                      a mushroom.

                                      I've also read,

                                      "Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge: A
                                      Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution," by Terence
                                      McKenna

                                      Mckenna tends to favor the mushroom theory, specifically a mushroom of
                                      the psilocybin family.

                                      Also, I remember reading a long time ago,

                                      "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross: A Study of the Nature and Origins
                                      of Christianity Within the Fertility Cults of the Ancient Near East,"
                                      by John Marco Allegro

                                      In which it is alleged that Jesus "was" a mushroom, in this case,
                                      amanita muscaria. Allegro was a biblical scholar who worked on the
                                      Dead Sea Scroll translation team, but was eventually kicked off of it
                                      by his colleagues.

                                      Regards,
                                      fred
                                    • Mike Leavitt
                                      Hello pessy@chez.com ... Nothing is good or evil in itself, or have you gone Orthodox on us Klaus? :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                        Hello pessy@...

                                        On 12-Jun-03, you wrote:

                                        > Mike Leavitt writes:
                                        >> I don't know, there's still alcohol in our communion wine. :-)
                                        >>
                                        > Alcohol is evil.
                                        > Thus Satornil and Marcion correctly banned it from the synagogoi.

                                        Nothing is good or evil in itself, or have you gone Orthodox on us
                                        Klaus? :-)

                                        Regards
                                        --
                                        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                      • pessy@chez.com
                                        ... Orthodoxers drink wine and get drunk on a regular base. Marcionites and Satornilites don t. Klaus Schilling
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 13, 2003
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                                          Mike Leavitt writes:
                                          > Hello pessy@...
                                          >
                                          > On 12-Jun-03, you wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Mike Leavitt writes:
                                          > >> I don't know, there's still alcohol in our communion wine. :-)
                                          > >>
                                          > > Alcohol is evil.
                                          > > Thus Satornil and Marcion correctly banned it from the synagogoi.
                                          >
                                          > Nothing is good or evil in itself, or have you gone Orthodox on us
                                          > Klaus? :-)

                                          Orthodoxers drink wine and get drunk on a regular base.
                                          Marcionites and Satornilites don't.

                                          Klaus Schilling
                                        • lady_caritas
                                          ... by ... originally ... like ... version. ... alleges ... was ... or ... of ... Origins ... East, ... it ... Hmmm, yes, there is a footnote on page 202 of
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 13, 2003
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                                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, fred60471 <no_reply@y...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                                            > > > > Maybe that's why they wondered aimlessly for 40 years in the
                                            > > > wilderness.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Or maybe… That's why modern day religions are so sterile. The
                                            > > active
                                            > > > ingredient has been removed from the sacraments.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > fred
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Speaking of use of entheogens in sacraments, Fred, have you read
                                            > _The
                                            > > Apples of Apollo, Pagan and Christian Mysteries of the Eucharist_
                                            by
                                            > > Carl A. P. Ruck, Blaise Daniel Staples, and Clark Heinrich? They
                                            > > offer theories on sacred ethnopharmacology. Manna and the
                                            > > Eucharistic bread are depicted (pages 196-207) as being
                                            originally
                                            > > psychoactive and Merkur is referenced in footnotes. So, looks
                                            like
                                            > > they prefer a sacred fungus explanation vs. a "bug dung"
                                            version.
                                            > :-)
                                            > >
                                            > > Cari
                                            >
                                            > Hi Cari,
                                            >
                                            > No, I haven't read that one, but I did read another book that Ruck
                                            > co-authored,
                                            >
                                            > "The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries
                                            > (Ethno-Mycological Studies, No. 4)" by Robert Gordon Wasson, Albert
                                            > Hofmann, Carl A. P. Ruck
                                            >
                                            > Ruck is a Classicist, Wasson is a mycologist, and Hofmann is, of
                                            > course, a chemist (he was the discoverer of LSD). This book
                                            alleges
                                            > that the "kykeon," the drink that the initiates at Eleusis drank
                                            was
                                            > an entheogen, but there is some dispute as to whether it was ergot
                                            or
                                            > a mushroom.
                                            >
                                            > I've also read,
                                            >
                                            > "Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge: A
                                            > Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution," by Terence
                                            > McKenna
                                            >
                                            > Mckenna tends to favor the mushroom theory, specifically a mushroom
                                            of
                                            > the psilocybin family.
                                            >
                                            > Also, I remember reading a long time ago,
                                            >
                                            > "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross: A Study of the Nature and
                                            Origins
                                            > of Christianity Within the Fertility Cults of the Ancient Near
                                            East,"
                                            > by John Marco Allegro
                                            >
                                            > In which it is alleged that Jesus "was" a mushroom, in this case,
                                            > amanita muscaria. Allegro was a biblical scholar who worked on the
                                            > Dead Sea Scroll translation team, but was eventually kicked off of
                                            it
                                            > by his colleagues.
                                            >
                                            > Regards,
                                            > fred


                                            Hmmm, yes, there is a footnote on page 202 of the book I mentioned
                                            that mentions Merkur's annoyance, dismissing (but not refuting) fly-
                                            agaric as a "cavalier allegation" of John Allegro without evidential
                                            support.

                                            And, thanks for all the references, Fred.


                                            Cari
                                          • Mike Leavitt
                                            Hello pessy@chez.com ... True, but they also interpret things literally. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jun 13, 2003
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                                              Hello pessy@...

                                              On 13-Jun-03, you wrote:

                                              > Mike Leavitt writes:
                                              >> Hello pessy@...
                                              >>
                                              >> On 12-Jun-03, you wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >>> Mike Leavitt writes:
                                              >>>> I don't know, there's still alcohol in our communion wine. :-)
                                              >>>>
                                              >>> Alcohol is evil.
                                              >>> Thus Satornil and Marcion correctly banned it from the
                                              > synagogoi.
                                              >>
                                              >> Nothing is good or evil in itself, or have you gone Orthodox on
                                              > us
                                              >> Klaus? :-)
                                              >
                                              > Orthodoxers drink wine and get drunk on a regular base.
                                              > Marcionites and Satornilites don't.
                                              >
                                              > Klaus Schilling

                                              True, but they also interpret things literally.

                                              Regards
                                              --
                                              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                            • martin12617
                                              The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view these things important
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 1, 2003
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                                                The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
                                                does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view these
                                                things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
                                                foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
                                                much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine should
                                                have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
                                                subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
                                                defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered the
                                                gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
                                                knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
                                                been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
                                                awakening.Martin
                                              • lady_caritas
                                                ... these ... should ... the ... Again, Martin, if you don t feel the Holy Mass needs to be discussed, why bring it up as a topic of discussion. Also, we
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jul 1, 2003
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                                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "martin12617" <martin12617@y...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
                                                  > does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view
                                                  these
                                                  > things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
                                                  > foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
                                                  > much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine
                                                  should
                                                  > have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
                                                  > subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
                                                  > defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered
                                                  the
                                                  > gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
                                                  > knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
                                                  > been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
                                                  > awakening.Martin


                                                  Again, Martin, if you don't feel the "Holy Mass" needs to be
                                                  discussed, why bring it up as a topic of discussion. Also, we will
                                                  not tolerate incendiary comments about your opinion of who
                                                  understands what or who lacks awakening.

                                                  That said, there is every possibility that some members here who are
                                                  familiar with sacraments might offer some insight into the use of
                                                  food and drink that differs from your materialistic interpretation of
                                                  such.


                                                  Cari
                                                • Mike Leavitt
                                                  Hello martin12617 ... You have a real talent Martin. You are the only person who can say something I agree with and piss me off. Your holier than thou, put
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jul 1, 2003
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                                                    Hello martin12617

                                                    On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

                                                    > The Holy Mass needs not to be discussed by anybody. What difference
                                                    > does it make if the wine has alcohol or not? Materialists view these
                                                    > things important however. The things we do in this world, have a
                                                    > foundation on a mystical, spiritual level. Unfortunately too, not
                                                    > much of the original idea is left. Arguing about whether wine should
                                                    > have alcohol, what food to consume or not, are good examples of
                                                    > subjects not-knowers are so keen about discussing, arguing and
                                                    > defending. People who post these messages, have not been offered the
                                                    > gift of grace to understand things and acquire the necessary
                                                    > knowledge, i.e. the gnosis. They have not suffered yet. They have
                                                    > been nurtured by their ego and kept from the reality. They lack an
                                                    > awakening.Martin

                                                    You have a real talent Martin. You are the only person who can say
                                                    something I agree with and piss me off. Your holier than thou, put
                                                    down attitude is probably the reason. The content is correct, IMO,
                                                    but the way you put it is completely offensive.

                                                    Regards
                                                    --
                                                    Mike Leavitt ac998@...
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