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Re: Dreams (was: Re: Beans, Manna from Heaven)

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  • Mike Leavitt
    Hello lady_caritas ... Well as some sort of Shaman put it, there are big dreams, and little ones. Most of us don t have the big ones often, but then even the
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
      Hello lady_caritas

      On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:

      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pessy@c... wrote:
      >> walkinginclogs@a... writes:
      >> > But all the literature that I have come across
      >> > written by the psychiatric world
      >>
      >> those authors are materialistic ignorants and kakogogues,
      >> one can't trust them in any sense.
      >>
      >> Klaus Schilling
      >
      >
      > Well, to say that "dreams are merely our subconscious hashing over
      > our experiences of the past day" does seems to be a rather
      > constricted view of this phenomenon.
      >
      > Cwbyspike, if you're able to get hold of a copy of this back issue
      > of _Gnosis_, Winter, 1992, you'll find a variety of articles devoted
      > to the subject of dreams:
      >
      > http://www.lumen.org/issue_contents/contents22.html
      >
      > Yes, this issue is over a decade old, but the articles still have
      > relevance IMO.
      >
      > Editor Richard Smoley introduces this issue with an article
      > entitled, "Are Dreams for Real?"
      >
      >> From the article:
      > "One of the main objections to the reality of the dream world is the
      > belief, stated or unstated, that somehow the mind is the brain, that
      > our dreams (as well as our waking thoughts and emotions) are just
      > byproducts of neural events. The latest theory along these lines
      > comes from Harvard psychiatrist Allan Hobson. Dreaming, he says, is
      > caused by the brain's random emission of electrochemical signals.
      > `The dreaming brain automatically generates a barrage of symbols
      > that we do our best to assemble into a coherent story .Dreaming is
      > not triggered by daily events that resurrect buried memories but is
      > a process as automatic as breathing.' Dreams, then, would be some
      > sort of nervous discharge, our synapses firing out their tensions
      > each night like crazed hicks shooting at road signs.
      >
      > "Personally I don't have the sort of expertise that could confirm or
      > refute Hobson's view. Yet (at least as presented in the popular
      > press) it appears to come down to the same form of materialistic
      > reductionism that has been weighed and found wanting so many times
      > before. As philosopher Thomas Nagel has pointed out in a brief but
      > influential essay entitled `What Is It Like to Be a Bat?', our
      > neurological knowledge (even if it's right) tells us little or
      > nothing about what it is to be an experiencing subject. Nagel uses
      > the example of bats, who, being proverbially blind, don't see as we
      > see, but perceive by bouncing a form of sonar off objects. Even
      > though we know a fair amount about the mechanism of sonar, none of
      > this, Nagel argues, tells us what it's like _subjectively_ to be a
      > bat; we just don't have any sense that's close enough to sonar to
      > help us conceive of that experience. Similarly, theories like
      > Hobson's may tell us what's happening at the physiological level,
      > but they don't enlighten us much about what it is to be a dreaming
      > subject.
      >
      > "This is an important point for two reasons. In the first place, the
      > materialistic view doesn't account for all the information: if I
      > dream, part of the data is my experience as a subject. Neurology can
      > tell me about myself as a functioning physical object, but it can't
      > tell me much about my subjective experience (much less anyone
      > else's); reductionistic theories thus don't account for all the
      > data. In the second place, they don't tell us what all this complex
      > cognitive apparatus is _for_. Even if Hobson is right and dreaming
      > is a cleansing of various neural mechanisms, why are these
      > mechanisms functioning to begin with? It's like saying the purpose
      > of an automobile is to have the oil changed.
      >
      > "As a way to dealing with these problems, we could say that on the
      > one hand there is a perspective that views things as objects, from
      > the exterior, as a scientist observes someone in a sleep lab. There
      > is also a perspective that sees things subjectively, from within, as
      > the dreamer himself would experience the same situation. This second
      > perspective would be the realm known variously as the `dream world,'
      > the `astral world,' the `Dreaming' (to Australian aborigines), or
      > Yetzirah (to kabbalists). It interpenetrates with the physical world
      > just as a dream is both a physiological event and a subjective
      > experience but is not identical to it."
      >
      >
      > Cari

      Well as some sort of Shaman put it, there are big dreams, and little
      ones. Most of us don't have the big ones often, but then even the
      little ones can have meaning.

      Regards
      --
      Mike Leavitt ac998@...
    • Barbara Jebenstreit
      ... as mana, ... chance does ... might be ... they aired some ... Exodus was a ... I don t (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I know that
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
        > Speaking of manna. For every so-called supernatural occurrance such
        as mana,
        > there seems to be a rational scientific explanation. So by any
        chance does
        > anyone know if in that region where the Isrealites wandered, there
        might be
        > such a thing maybe as this manna even today? Of course on PBS
        they aired some
        > program in which some historians believe that the whole book of
        Exodus was a
        > fairy tale, and never happened.


        I don't (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I know
        that some scientists believe that the Exodus indeed happened, though
        the somewhat differently than the Bible reports. "Manna" is thought
        to be the product of some kind of insect. The insect would excrete
        some kind of carbonhydrate rich substance during the night. Until
        morning, the substance had dried to a solid form, like dry snowflakes
        which the Isrealites then collected.

        Before I close this post, I want to thank you all for the warm
        welcome and the reading suggestions. :)

        Greetings,
        Barbara
      • walkinginclogs@aol.com
        Thank you for the manna info. Very interesting.
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
          Thank you for the manna info. Very interesting.
        • Mike Leavitt
          Hello Barbara ... Leave it to science to transform Mana from Heaven to bug dung. :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
            Hello Barbara

            On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:

            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
            >> Speaking of manna. For every so-called supernatural occurrance such
            > as mana,
            >> there seems to be a rational scientific explanation. So by any
            > chance does
            >> anyone know if in that region where the Isrealites wandered, there
            > might be
            >> such a thing maybe as this manna even today? Of course on PBS
            > they aired some
            >> program in which some historians believe that the whole book of
            > Exodus was a
            >> fairy tale, and never happened.
            >
            >
            > I don't (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I know
            > that some scientists believe that the Exodus indeed happened, though
            > the somewhat differently than the Bible reports. "Manna" is thought
            > to be the product of some kind of insect. The insect would excrete
            > some kind of carbonhydrate rich substance during the night. Until
            > morning, the substance had dried to a solid form, like dry
            > snowflakes which the Isrealites then collected.
            >
            > Before I close this post, I want to thank you all for the warm
            > welcome and the reading suggestions. :)
            >
            > Greetings,
            > Barbara

            Leave it to science to transform Mana from Heaven to bug dung. :-)

            Regards
            --
            Mike Leavitt ac998@...
          • lady_caritas
            ... such ... there ... know ... though ... thought ... Well, y all got me interested, and I found this webpage supporting Barbara s explanation (the scientific
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
              > Hello Barbara
              >
              > On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:
              >
              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
              > >> Speaking of manna. For every so-called supernatural occurrance
              such
              > > as mana,
              > >> there seems to be a rational scientific explanation. So by any
              > > chance does
              > >> anyone know if in that region where the Isrealites wandered,
              there
              > > might be
              > >> such a thing maybe as this manna even today? Of course on PBS
              > > they aired some
              > >> program in which some historians believe that the whole book of
              > > Exodus was a
              > >> fairy tale, and never happened.
              > >
              > >
              > > I don't (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I
              know
              > > that some scientists believe that the Exodus indeed happened,
              though
              > > the somewhat differently than the Bible reports. "Manna" is
              thought
              > > to be the product of some kind of insect. The insect would excrete
              > > some kind of carbonhydrate rich substance during the night. Until
              > > morning, the substance had dried to a solid form, like dry
              > > snowflakes which the Isrealites then collected.
              > >
              > > Before I close this post, I want to thank you all for the warm
              > > welcome and the reading suggestions. :)
              > >
              > > Greetings,
              > > Barbara
              >
              > Leave it to science to transform Mana from Heaven to bug dung. :-)
              >
              > Regards
              > --
              > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


              Well, y'all got me interested, and I found this webpage supporting
              Barbara's explanation (the scientific explanation is about 3/4 down
              the page):

              http://www.jhom.com/topics/bread/manna.html


              Cari
            • Mike Leavitt
              Hello lady_caritas ... And it confirms the bug dung too. :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 9, 2003
                Hello lady_caritas

                On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:

                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                >> Hello Barbara
                >>
                >> On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:
                >>
                >>> --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                >>>> Speaking of manna. For every so-called supernatural occurrance
                > such
                >>> as mana,
                >> >> there seems to be a rational scientific explanation. So by any
                >>> chance does
                >>>> anyone know if in that region where the Isrealites wandered,
                > there
                >>> might be
                >> >> such a thing maybe as this manna even today? Of course on PBS
                >>> they aired some
                >> >> program in which some historians believe that the whole book of
                >>> Exodus was a
                >>>> fairy tale, and never happened.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> I don't (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I
                > know
                >>> that some scientists believe that the Exodus indeed happened,
                > though
                >>> the somewhat differently than the Bible reports. "Manna" is
                > thought
                >> > to be the product of some kind of insect. The insect would
                >> > excrete some kind of carbonhydrate rich substance during the
                >> > night. Until morning, the substance had dried to a solid form,
                >> > like dry snowflakes which the Isrealites then collected.
                >> >
                >> > Before I close this post, I want to thank you all for the warm
                >> > welcome and the reading suggestions. :)
                >> >
                >> > Greetings,
                >> > Barbara
                >>
                >> Leave it to science to transform Mana from Heaven to bug dung. :-)
                >>
                >> Regards
                >> --
                >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                >
                >
                > Well, y'all got me interested, and I found this webpage supporting
                > Barbara's explanation (the scientific explanation is about 3/4 down
                > the page):
                >
                > http://www.jhom.com/topics/bread/manna.html
                >
                >
                > Cari

                And it confirms the bug dung too. :-)

                Regards
                --
                Mike Leavitt ac998@...
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