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Re: Beans, Manna from Heaven

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  • Gerry
    ... course, ... Say, Steve, have you ever tried reading Revelations while listening to the Beatles? Just kidding, but it does make a point that you can find
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <eugnostos2000@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Very true. It's amazing how easily people buy into it. The book of
      > Revelation continually says that the End is coming soon. At the end
      > of the book it even has the Angel tell John not to seal up the
      > scroll of prophesy because it would be happening so soon. This in
      > contrast to the book of Daniel where the prophesy is sealed up
      > because it was going to take a long time to be fulfilled. Of
      course,
      > John's vision was written down in the 1st century and "soon" can
      > hardly mean 2000 years in the future! But fundamentalists continue
      > to try to apply it to our time. There's a sucker born every minute!
      > Yours, Steve


      Say, Steve, have you ever tried reading Revelations while listening
      to the Beatles? Just kidding, but it does make a point that you can
      find extremists of all sorts who can come up with bizarre
      interpretations.

      As for apocalyptic groups that seem to continually rationalize
      pushing back the date for their "end of times," it seems odd that if
      the meaning of the seals had been correctly prophesied in the first
      place that their god should have such a tough time keeping an
      appointment. You'd think after being stood-up the first time by the
      Horsemen, they'd reassess their interpretation, but such a mindset
      doesn't much allow for that kind of thinking.

      Still, I suppose it's better if such a group kept those thoughts to
      themselves rather than interpret any hitches in God's alleged plan as
      an open invitation for them to go Helter-Skelter on the rest of the
      world.

      Gerry
    • walkinginclogs@aol.com
      I think so. Dreams are merely a hodge-podge of experiences we had, usually that day. The Seventh Day Adventists base a lot of their doctrine on an Ellen
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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        I think so. Dreams are merely a hodge-podge of experiences we had, usually
        that day. The Seventh Day Adventists base a lot of their doctrine on an Ellen
        White who said she had a vision. In this vision she said that she was told
        not to eat meat. The Adventists then concluded that God said that you must not
        eat meat.

        Others said that after she died they found books in her home written by some
        doctor which advocated a vegetarian diet. So I think that she was merely
        dreaming about what she read in those books. But ardent followers would like to
        believe that God told her all those things. When I was a teenager I used to
        think that dreams had some kind of significance because Freud said so. But all
        the literature that I have come across written by the psychiatric world seem to
        agree that dreams are merely our subconscious hashing over our experiences of
        the past day.
      • pessy@chez.com
        ... those authors are materialistic ignorants and kakogogues, one can t trust them in any sense. Klaus Schilling
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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          walkinginclogs@... writes:
          > But all the literature that I have come across
          > written by the psychiatric world

          those authors are materialistic ignorants and kakogogues,
          one can't trust them in any sense.

          Klaus Schilling
        • lady_caritas
          ... Well, to say that dreams are merely our subconscious hashing over our experiences of the past day does seems to be a rather constricted view of this
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pessy@c... wrote:
            > walkinginclogs@a... writes:
            > > But all the literature that I have come across
            > > written by the psychiatric world
            >
            > those authors are materialistic ignorants and kakogogues,
            > one can't trust them in any sense.
            >
            > Klaus Schilling


            Well, to say that "dreams are merely our subconscious hashing over
            our experiences of the past day" does seems to be a rather
            constricted view of this phenomenon.

            Cwbyspike, if you're able to get hold of a copy of this back issue of
            _Gnosis_, Winter, 1992, you'll find a variety of articles devoted to
            the subject of dreams:

            http://www.lumen.org/issue_contents/contents22.html

            Yes, this issue is over a decade old, but the articles still have
            relevance IMO.

            Editor Richard Smoley introduces this issue with an article
            entitled, "Are Dreams for Real?"

            From the article:
            "One of the main objections to the reality of the dream world is the
            belief, stated or unstated, that somehow the mind is the brain, that
            our dreams (as well as our waking thoughts and emotions) are just
            byproducts of neural events. The latest theory along these lines
            comes from Harvard psychiatrist Allan Hobson. Dreaming, he says, is
            caused by the brain's random emission of electrochemical
            signals. `The dreaming brain automatically generates a barrage of
            symbols that we do our best to assemble into a coherent
            story….Dreaming is not triggered by daily events that resurrect
            buried memories but is a process as automatic as breathing.' Dreams,
            then, would be some sort of nervous discharge, our synapses firing
            out their tensions each night like crazed hicks shooting at road
            signs.

            "Personally I don't have the sort of expertise that could confirm or
            refute Hobson's view. Yet (at least as presented in the popular
            press) it appears to come down to the same form of materialistic
            reductionism that has been weighed and found wanting so many times
            before. As philosopher Thomas Nagel has pointed out in a brief but
            influential essay entitled `What Is It Like to Be a Bat?', our
            neurological knowledge (even if it's right) tells us little or
            nothing about what it is to be an experiencing subject. Nagel uses
            the example of bats, who, being proverbially blind, don't see as we
            see, but perceive by bouncing a form of sonar off objects. Even
            though we know a fair amount about the mechanism of sonar, none of
            this, Nagel argues, tells us what it's like _subjectively_ to be a
            bat; we just don't have any sense that's close enough to sonar to
            help us conceive of that experience. Similarly, theories like
            Hobson's may tell us what's happening at the physiological level, but
            they don't enlighten us much about what it is to be a dreaming
            subject.

            "This is an important point for two reasons. In the first place, the
            materialistic view doesn't account for all the information: if I
            dream, part of the data is my experience as a subject. Neurology can
            tell me about myself as a functioning physical object, but it can't
            tell me much about my subjective experience (much less anyone
            else's); reductionistic theories thus don't account for all the
            data. In the second place, they don't tell us what all this complex
            cognitive apparatus is _for_. Even if Hobson is right and dreaming
            is a cleansing of various neural mechanisms, why are these mechanisms
            functioning to begin with? It's like saying the purpose of an
            automobile is to have the oil changed.

            "As a way to dealing with these problems, we could say that on the
            one hand there is a perspective that views things as objects, from
            the exterior, as a scientist observes someone in a sleep lab. There
            is also a perspective that sees things subjectively, from within, as
            the dreamer himself would experience the same situation. This second
            perspective would be the realm known variously as the `dream world,'
            the `astral world,' the `Dreaming' (to Australian aborigines), or
            Yetzirah (to kabbalists). It interpenetrates with the physical world—
            just as a dream is both a physiological event and a subjective
            experience—but is not identical to it."


            Cari
          • Mike Leavitt
            Hello lady_caritas ... Well as some sort of Shaman put it, there are big dreams, and little ones. Most of us don t have the big ones often, but then even the
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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              Hello lady_caritas

              On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:

              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pessy@c... wrote:
              >> walkinginclogs@a... writes:
              >> > But all the literature that I have come across
              >> > written by the psychiatric world
              >>
              >> those authors are materialistic ignorants and kakogogues,
              >> one can't trust them in any sense.
              >>
              >> Klaus Schilling
              >
              >
              > Well, to say that "dreams are merely our subconscious hashing over
              > our experiences of the past day" does seems to be a rather
              > constricted view of this phenomenon.
              >
              > Cwbyspike, if you're able to get hold of a copy of this back issue
              > of _Gnosis_, Winter, 1992, you'll find a variety of articles devoted
              > to the subject of dreams:
              >
              > http://www.lumen.org/issue_contents/contents22.html
              >
              > Yes, this issue is over a decade old, but the articles still have
              > relevance IMO.
              >
              > Editor Richard Smoley introduces this issue with an article
              > entitled, "Are Dreams for Real?"
              >
              >> From the article:
              > "One of the main objections to the reality of the dream world is the
              > belief, stated or unstated, that somehow the mind is the brain, that
              > our dreams (as well as our waking thoughts and emotions) are just
              > byproducts of neural events. The latest theory along these lines
              > comes from Harvard psychiatrist Allan Hobson. Dreaming, he says, is
              > caused by the brain's random emission of electrochemical signals.
              > `The dreaming brain automatically generates a barrage of symbols
              > that we do our best to assemble into a coherent story .Dreaming is
              > not triggered by daily events that resurrect buried memories but is
              > a process as automatic as breathing.' Dreams, then, would be some
              > sort of nervous discharge, our synapses firing out their tensions
              > each night like crazed hicks shooting at road signs.
              >
              > "Personally I don't have the sort of expertise that could confirm or
              > refute Hobson's view. Yet (at least as presented in the popular
              > press) it appears to come down to the same form of materialistic
              > reductionism that has been weighed and found wanting so many times
              > before. As philosopher Thomas Nagel has pointed out in a brief but
              > influential essay entitled `What Is It Like to Be a Bat?', our
              > neurological knowledge (even if it's right) tells us little or
              > nothing about what it is to be an experiencing subject. Nagel uses
              > the example of bats, who, being proverbially blind, don't see as we
              > see, but perceive by bouncing a form of sonar off objects. Even
              > though we know a fair amount about the mechanism of sonar, none of
              > this, Nagel argues, tells us what it's like _subjectively_ to be a
              > bat; we just don't have any sense that's close enough to sonar to
              > help us conceive of that experience. Similarly, theories like
              > Hobson's may tell us what's happening at the physiological level,
              > but they don't enlighten us much about what it is to be a dreaming
              > subject.
              >
              > "This is an important point for two reasons. In the first place, the
              > materialistic view doesn't account for all the information: if I
              > dream, part of the data is my experience as a subject. Neurology can
              > tell me about myself as a functioning physical object, but it can't
              > tell me much about my subjective experience (much less anyone
              > else's); reductionistic theories thus don't account for all the
              > data. In the second place, they don't tell us what all this complex
              > cognitive apparatus is _for_. Even if Hobson is right and dreaming
              > is a cleansing of various neural mechanisms, why are these
              > mechanisms functioning to begin with? It's like saying the purpose
              > of an automobile is to have the oil changed.
              >
              > "As a way to dealing with these problems, we could say that on the
              > one hand there is a perspective that views things as objects, from
              > the exterior, as a scientist observes someone in a sleep lab. There
              > is also a perspective that sees things subjectively, from within, as
              > the dreamer himself would experience the same situation. This second
              > perspective would be the realm known variously as the `dream world,'
              > the `astral world,' the `Dreaming' (to Australian aborigines), or
              > Yetzirah (to kabbalists). It interpenetrates with the physical world
              > just as a dream is both a physiological event and a subjective
              > experience but is not identical to it."
              >
              >
              > Cari

              Well as some sort of Shaman put it, there are big dreams, and little
              ones. Most of us don't have the big ones often, but then even the
              little ones can have meaning.

              Regards
              --
              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
            • Barbara Jebenstreit
              ... as mana, ... chance does ... might be ... they aired some ... Exodus was a ... I don t (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I know that
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                > Speaking of manna. For every so-called supernatural occurrance such
                as mana,
                > there seems to be a rational scientific explanation. So by any
                chance does
                > anyone know if in that region where the Isrealites wandered, there
                might be
                > such a thing maybe as this manna even today? Of course on PBS
                they aired some
                > program in which some historians believe that the whole book of
                Exodus was a
                > fairy tale, and never happened.


                I don't (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I know
                that some scientists believe that the Exodus indeed happened, though
                the somewhat differently than the Bible reports. "Manna" is thought
                to be the product of some kind of insect. The insect would excrete
                some kind of carbonhydrate rich substance during the night. Until
                morning, the substance had dried to a solid form, like dry snowflakes
                which the Isrealites then collected.

                Before I close this post, I want to thank you all for the warm
                welcome and the reading suggestions. :)

                Greetings,
                Barbara
              • walkinginclogs@aol.com
                Thank you for the manna info. Very interesting.
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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                  Thank you for the manna info. Very interesting.
                • Mike Leavitt
                  Hello Barbara ... Leave it to science to transform Mana from Heaven to bug dung. :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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                    Hello Barbara

                    On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:

                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                    >> Speaking of manna. For every so-called supernatural occurrance such
                    > as mana,
                    >> there seems to be a rational scientific explanation. So by any
                    > chance does
                    >> anyone know if in that region where the Isrealites wandered, there
                    > might be
                    >> such a thing maybe as this manna even today? Of course on PBS
                    > they aired some
                    >> program in which some historians believe that the whole book of
                    > Exodus was a
                    >> fairy tale, and never happened.
                    >
                    >
                    > I don't (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I know
                    > that some scientists believe that the Exodus indeed happened, though
                    > the somewhat differently than the Bible reports. "Manna" is thought
                    > to be the product of some kind of insect. The insect would excrete
                    > some kind of carbonhydrate rich substance during the night. Until
                    > morning, the substance had dried to a solid form, like dry
                    > snowflakes which the Isrealites then collected.
                    >
                    > Before I close this post, I want to thank you all for the warm
                    > welcome and the reading suggestions. :)
                    >
                    > Greetings,
                    > Barbara

                    Leave it to science to transform Mana from Heaven to bug dung. :-)

                    Regards
                    --
                    Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                  • lady_caritas
                    ... such ... there ... know ... though ... thought ... Well, y all got me interested, and I found this webpage supporting Barbara s explanation (the scientific
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 8, 2003
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                      > Hello Barbara
                      >
                      > On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:
                      >
                      > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                      > >> Speaking of manna. For every so-called supernatural occurrance
                      such
                      > > as mana,
                      > >> there seems to be a rational scientific explanation. So by any
                      > > chance does
                      > >> anyone know if in that region where the Isrealites wandered,
                      there
                      > > might be
                      > >> such a thing maybe as this manna even today? Of course on PBS
                      > > they aired some
                      > >> program in which some historians believe that the whole book of
                      > > Exodus was a
                      > >> fairy tale, and never happened.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I don't (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I
                      know
                      > > that some scientists believe that the Exodus indeed happened,
                      though
                      > > the somewhat differently than the Bible reports. "Manna" is
                      thought
                      > > to be the product of some kind of insect. The insect would excrete
                      > > some kind of carbonhydrate rich substance during the night. Until
                      > > morning, the substance had dried to a solid form, like dry
                      > > snowflakes which the Isrealites then collected.
                      > >
                      > > Before I close this post, I want to thank you all for the warm
                      > > welcome and the reading suggestions. :)
                      > >
                      > > Greetings,
                      > > Barbara
                      >
                      > Leave it to science to transform Mana from Heaven to bug dung. :-)
                      >
                      > Regards
                      > --
                      > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


                      Well, y'all got me interested, and I found this webpage supporting
                      Barbara's explanation (the scientific explanation is about 3/4 down
                      the page):

                      http://www.jhom.com/topics/bread/manna.html


                      Cari
                    • Mike Leavitt
                      Hello lady_caritas ... And it confirms the bug dung too. :-) Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 9, 2003
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                        Hello lady_caritas

                        On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:

                        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                        >> Hello Barbara
                        >>
                        >> On 08-Jun-03, you wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, walkinginclogs@a... wrote:
                        >>>> Speaking of manna. For every so-called supernatural occurrance
                        > such
                        >>> as mana,
                        >> >> there seems to be a rational scientific explanation. So by any
                        >>> chance does
                        >>>> anyone know if in that region where the Isrealites wandered,
                        > there
                        >>> might be
                        >> >> such a thing maybe as this manna even today? Of course on PBS
                        >>> they aired some
                        >> >> program in which some historians believe that the whole book of
                        >>> Exodus was a
                        >>>> fairy tale, and never happened.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> I don't (regretfully) recall when or where I heard it... but I
                        > know
                        >>> that some scientists believe that the Exodus indeed happened,
                        > though
                        >>> the somewhat differently than the Bible reports. "Manna" is
                        > thought
                        >> > to be the product of some kind of insect. The insect would
                        >> > excrete some kind of carbonhydrate rich substance during the
                        >> > night. Until morning, the substance had dried to a solid form,
                        >> > like dry snowflakes which the Isrealites then collected.
                        >> >
                        >> > Before I close this post, I want to thank you all for the warm
                        >> > welcome and the reading suggestions. :)
                        >> >
                        >> > Greetings,
                        >> > Barbara
                        >>
                        >> Leave it to science to transform Mana from Heaven to bug dung. :-)
                        >>
                        >> Regards
                        >> --
                        >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                        >
                        >
                        > Well, y'all got me interested, and I found this webpage supporting
                        > Barbara's explanation (the scientific explanation is about 3/4 down
                        > the page):
                        >
                        > http://www.jhom.com/topics/bread/manna.html
                        >
                        >
                        > Cari

                        And it confirms the bug dung too. :-)

                        Regards
                        --
                        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
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