Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

The world, the flesh, and youknowwho

Expand Messages
  • incognito_lightbringer
    ... wrote: This had me wondering. Is this true in either orthodox or gnostic
    Message 1 of 6 , May 20, 2003
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "James Lambert" <jehlickova@m...>
      wrote:
      <<spirit and body is a false dichotomy. Flesh is not opposed to
      spirit,>>

      This had me wondering. Is this true in either orthodox or gnostic
      philosphy?
      There are quite a few quotes that seem to indicate that flesh and
      spirit are in oppostition. On the other hand, there's that famous
      Ephesians quote which is also repeated in several Nag Hammadi texts.
      Then there's a quote in Gospel of Philip that's even more confusing.
      I went looking for quotes. Here's just a few.

      John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one
      is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
      That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of
      the Spirit is spirit.

      John 6:63
      It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words
      that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life

      Romans 7:18
      For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for
      to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not
      find.

      Romans 8: 5-9
      For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the
      things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the
      things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be
      spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is
      enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor
      indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please
      God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the
      Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit
      of Christ, he is not His.

      1 Corinthians 5:4
      In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together,
      along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
      deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that
      his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

      Ephesians 6:12
      For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against
      principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
      this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places

      Then you have NH texts,

      The Book of Thomas the Contender
      "Woe to you who hope in the flesh and in the prison that will perish!
      How long will you be oblivious? And how long will you suppose that
      the imperishables will perish too? Your hope is set upon the world,
      and your god is this life! You are corrupting your souls!

      The Exegesis on the Soul
      But what does "the sons of Egypt, men great of flesh" mean, if not
      the domain of the flesh and the perceptible realm and the affairs of
      the earth, by which the soul has become defiled here, receiving bread
      from them, as well as wine, oil, clothing, and the other external
      nonsense surrounding the body - the things she thinks she needs.....

      Yet the greatest struggle has to do with the prostitution of the
      soul. From it arises the prostitution of the body as well. Therefore
      Paul, writing to the Corinthians (1Co 5:9-10), said, "I wrote you in
      the letter, 'Do not associate with prostitutes,' not at all (meaning)
      the prostitutes of this world or the greedy or the thieves or the
      idolaters, since then you would have to go out from the world." -
      here it is speaking spiritually - "For our struggle is not against
      flesh and blood - as he said (Ep 6:12) - but against the world rulers
      of this darkness and the spirits of wickedness."


      Hypostasis of the Archons
      On account of the reality of the authorities, (inspired) by the
      spirit of the father of truth, the great apostle - referring to
      the "authorities of the darkness" - told us that "our contest is not
      against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the universe and
      the spirits of wickedness." I have sent this (to you) because you
      inquire about the reality of the authorities.

      Gospel of Philip
      Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to
      rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the
      flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who
      are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God"
      (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on
      us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which
      belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall
      not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53).
      What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit.
      He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing. I
      find fault with the others who say that it will not rise. Then both
      of them are at fault. You say that the flesh will not rise. But tell
      me what will rise, that we may honor you. You say the Spirit in the
      flesh, and it is also this light in the flesh. (But) this too is a
      matter which is in the flesh, for whatever you shall say, you say
      nothing outside the flesh. It is necessary to rise in this flesh,
      since everything exists in it. In this world, those who put on
      garments are better than the garments. In the Kingdom of Heaven, the
      garments are better than those that put them on.

      Gospel of Philip
      Fear not the flesh nor love it. If you fear it, it will gain mastery
      over you. If you love it, it will swallow and paralyze you.

      Apocryphon of John
      The Lord answered and said, "What is your merit if you do the will of
      the Father and it is not given to you from him as a gift while you
      are tempted by Satan? But if you are oppressed by Satan, and
      persecuted, and you do his (i.e., the Father's) will, I say that he
      will love you, and make you equal with me, and reckon you to have
      become beloved through his providence by your own choice. So will you
      not cease loving the flesh and being afraid of sufferings? Or do you
      not know that you have yet to be abused and to be accused unjustly;
      and have yet to be shut up in prison, and condemned unlawfully, and
      crucified <without> reason, and buried as I myself, by the evil one?
      Do you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is an
      encircling wall? If you consider how long the world existed <before>
      you, and how long it will exist after you, you will find that your
      life is one single day, and your sufferings one single hour. For the
      good will not enter into the world. Scorn death, therefore, and take
      thought for life! Remember my cross and my death, and you will live!"

      Dialogue of the Savior
      Matthew said, "Lord, I want to see that place of life, [the place]
      where there is no wickedness, but rather, there is pure light!"
      The Lord said, "Brother Matthew, you will not be able to see it as
      long as you are carrying flesh around."
    • pessy@chez.com
      ... exactly. this verse has been written by Gnostics, and the catholic stupiders forgot to wipe it out. ... the principalities are of course the evil archons.
      Message 2 of 6 , May 20, 2003
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        incognito_lightbringer writes:

        > John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one
        > is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
        > That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of
        > the Spirit is spirit.

        exactly. this verse has been written by Gnostics,
        and the catholic stupiders forgot to wipe it out.
        >
        > Ephesians 6:12
        > For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against
        > principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
        > this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places
        >
        the principalities are of course the evil archons.
        here Marcion differs between the archons as the things themselves
        and the flesh as their objectivation.
        it is useless to destroy just particular objectivations,
        the thing per se must be obliterated.
        This is best done by encratism.

        > Then you have NH texts,
        >
        > The Book of Thomas the Contender
        > "Woe to you who hope in the flesh and in the prison that will perish!
        > How long will you be oblivious? And how long will you suppose that
        > the imperishables will perish too? Your hope is set upon the world,
        > and your god is this life! You are corrupting your souls!
        >

        exactly!

        >
        > Yet the greatest struggle has to do with the prostitution of the
        > soul. From it arises the prostitution of the body as well. Therefore
        > Paul, writing to the Corinthians (1Co 5:9-10), said, "I wrote you in
        > the letter, 'Do not associate with prostitutes,' not at all (meaning)
        > the prostitutes of this world or the greedy or the thieves or the
        > idolaters, since then you would have to go out from the world." -
        > here it is speaking spiritually - "For our struggle is not against
        > flesh and blood - as he said (Ep 6:12) - but against the world rulers
        > of this darkness and the spirits of wickedness."
        >
        >
        > Hypostasis of the Archons
        > On account of the reality of the authorities, (inspired) by the
        > spirit of the father of truth, the great apostle - referring to
        > the "authorities of the darkness" - told us that "our contest is not
        > against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the universe and
        > the spirits of wickedness." I have sent this (to you) because you
        > inquire about the reality of the authorities.
        >
        > Gospel of Philip
        > Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to
        > rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the
        > flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who
        > are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God"
        > (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on
        > us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which
        > belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall
        > not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53).
        > What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit.
        > He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing. I
        > find fault with the others who say that it will not rise. Then both
        > of them are at fault. You say that the flesh will not rise. But tell
        > me what will rise, that we may honor you. You say the Spirit in the
        > flesh, and it is also this light in the flesh. (But) this too is a
        > matter which is in the flesh, for whatever you shall say, you say
        > nothing outside the flesh. It is necessary to rise in this flesh,
        > since everything exists in it. In this world, those who put on
        > garments are better than the garments. In the Kingdom of Heaven, the
        > garments are better than those that put them on.
        >
        > Gospel of Philip
        > Fear not the flesh nor love it. If you fear it, it will gain mastery
        > over you. If you love it, it will swallow and paralyze you.
        >
        > Apocryphon of John
        > The Lord answered and said, "What is your merit if you do the will of
        > the Father and it is not given to you from him as a gift while you
        > are tempted by Satan? But if you are oppressed by Satan, and
        > persecuted, and you do his (i.e., the Father's) will, I say that he
        > will love you, and make you equal with me, and reckon you to have
        > become beloved through his providence by your own choice. So will you
        > not cease loving the flesh and being afraid of sufferings? Or do you
        > not know that you have yet to be abused and to be accused unjustly;
        > and have yet to be shut up in prison, and condemned unlawfully, and
        > crucified <without> reason, and buried as I myself, by the evil one?
        > Do you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is an
        > encircling wall? If you consider how long the world existed <before>
        > you, and how long it will exist after you, you will find that your
        > life is one single day, and your sufferings one single hour. For the
        > good will not enter into the world. Scorn death, therefore, and take
        > thought for life! Remember my cross and my death, and you will live!"
        >

        That's not in John's Apochryphon.

        > Dialogue of the Savior
        > Matthew said, "Lord, I want to see that place of life, [the place]
        > where there is no wickedness, but rather, there is pure light!"
        > The Lord said, "Brother Matthew, you will not be able to see it as
        > long as you are carrying flesh around."
        >
        exactly!

        Klaus Schilling
      • incognito_lightbringer
        You re right! Wrong Apocryphon. It s in the Apocryphon of James, not John.
        Message 3 of 6 , May 20, 2003
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          <<That's not in John's Apochryphon.>>


          You're right! Wrong Apocryphon. It's in the Apocryphon of James, not
          John.
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.