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Re: What are the Sources for the Pythagorean "fraternity"?

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  • pmcvflag
    ... I understand your willingness to see the Hopi as proving (?) that the Pythagorean school MUST have had some Mesopotamian influences in organizing their
    Message 1 of 170 , May 3, 2003
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      > Mike,
      I understand your willingness to see the Hopi as
      "proving" (?) that the Pythagorean school MUST have
      had some Mesopotamian influences in organizing their
      secret fraternity.<

      George, not to speak for Mike here... but I can't help but jump in on
      this one. What you just stated is not even close to what Mike
      actually said. I need to re-iterate... twisting peoples words is only
      going to cause frustration. Mike stated that the instance of secret
      societies in unrelated locals demonstrates that it is not necessary
      for there to have been a source for secrecy in the Pythagorian
      school, other than thier own desire to be secretive. If you are
      familiar with the basic principles of logic, then you know that
      Occam's razor tells us very clearly that you would have to prove
      something beyond the most obvious explination. If Egypt is not
      necessary as a source, then it is up to you to prove it was a source.
      The fact that Egypt may have had secret societies is irrelevent, it
      in no way demonstrates Egypt as an origin.

      to repeat his statement..... "Maybe, but the existence of such
      societies among the Hopi in the American Southwest is suggestive of
      the possibility of an indigenous origin. Clearly such societies have
      existed outside of Egypt, unless somehow Egyptians managed to get to
      the American Southwest."

      Now where in that did you come up with him saying that it proves a
      Mesopotamian source?

      > But without at least an attempt to obtain evidence from
      Mesopotamian sources, I think this is not the most persuasive
      approach.<


      > Note: Anyone just coming upon this thread would certainly be
      surprised, I think, to see the need for me to even explain this,
      don't you? In other words.... considering the broad range of
      informed research represented by this list, it is surprising to me to
      be reading more about the Hopi fraternities than ones we might have
      actually read about in the ancient near east.<

      I think you missed the point there George. The inclusion of the Hopi
      orders here does prove that Egypt (or any other particular source) is
      nothing more than a case of "multiplying entities" and thus a logical
      flaw if you don't provide direct evidence.

      What does this boil down to? It means, unless you can show
      specifically that there WAS an Egyptian influence, there is no reason
      to assume that the Pythagorian secret society was anything other than
      thier own invention.

      PMCV
    • Wayne
      The Middle region, when you separate the light from the darkness you enter into the Twilight Zone, the World of the Imagination, Freedom of Mind, Divine Will.
      Message 170 of 170 , Jun 5, 2003
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        The Middle region, when you separate the light from the darkness
        you enter into the Twilight Zone, the World of the Imagination,
        Freedom of Mind, Divine Will.

        To Truly be Good you must be Free from the knowledge, from having
        known, experienced wrong doing, you must be innocent.

        Innocence exists only when there is no Evil, a long as Evil exist
        Good is Evil and Evil is good, there is no innocence.

        In between the Light and the Darkness, Parallel Universes, the Two
        Worlds of Reality, One the World of Reality as seen in the light of
        day, the Reality of the Moment, the Here and Now, Reality that exists
        independent of our thoughts concerning it and the World of the
        Imagination, the middle World, the World of Illusion, Sin; Reality as
        seen in the Second light of the Sun, Moon Light, where thinly veiled
        shadowy figures lurk in the Darkest corners of the Mind.

        By the light of the Silvery Moon, Light that is separated out of the
        Darkness, Twice light.

        Illusion Trice Light, Reality hauled up out of the darkest depths of
        the abyss, the imagination.

        A Lie is the Truth, an Illusion is a Reality, Evil is Good, Good is
        Evil, Good and Evil is Evil.


        Yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pessy@c... wrote:
        > > lady_caritas writes:
        > >
        > > > contained in this line, "Within the present world, (reputedly)
        > there
        > > > is good and there is evil, (but) the world's goods are not
        > (really)
        > > > good, and its evils not (really) evil." IOW, "reputedly"
        > > > or "allegedly" or "so they say" makes me wonder. Would this
        be
        > a
        > > > Valentinian recounting a more literal, traditional notion of
        the
        > > > opposites, "good" and "evil," in comparison to a conception of
        > the
        > > > world not being (really) black and white? Or OTOH might this
        be
        > a
        > > > heresiologist relating a view secondhand or rather a novice
        > entering
        > > > an initiation process or even a Valentinian not entirely
        > convinced or
        > > > in agreement about the concepts of good and evil? Regardless,
        I
        > > > think we can at least glean some Valentinian ideas from this
        > passage,
        > > > as it speaks to hylic, psychic, and pneumatic natures, and it
        > > > certainly reiterates a common theme of resurrection now in
        this
        > > > lifetime, not waiting for some later time.
        > >
        > >
        > > no, it just merans that the world is evil, and good is out of the
        > world,
        > > whereas Zoroastrians see good and bad residing in the world.
        > >
        > >
        > > Klaus Schilling
        >
        >
        > Klaus, I suppose that is also a very likely interpretation. (My
        last
        > sentence of that paragraph was referring not only to the line just
        > previously discussed about "good" and "evil," but to other comments
        > in the GPh passage as a whole.) However, I guess my point was,
        > perhaps we could only assume the line related to Zoroastrian
        thought
        > when no direct mention is made of them and we don't even know the
        > original source or context of this whole passage. And, where does
        > the passage say that this world is only "evil," as you interpret?
        Or
        > do you think it is implied somehow?
        >
        > Also, considering your interpretation of that line, how does that
        fit
        > within the context of the remainder of the passage, with the author
        > defining the "midpoint" -- "**after** this world" -- as "evil"?
        >
        >
        > Cari
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