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Re: So where did the Pythagorean School get their "innovations"?

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  • lady_caritas
    ... unless ... Thank you, Mike. George, I suppose I m a bit confused here. May I assume you re still talking about Pythagorean secret fraternities? In Post
    Message 1 of 170 , May 3, 2003
      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
      > Hello George
      >
      > On 03-May-03, you wrote:
      >
      > > PMCV,
      > >
      > > I should have noticed that "All of the Above" response.
      > > My apologies for missing it.
      > >
      > > Going back to my list, however:
      > >
      > >>>>>
      > >> 1) Egypt?
      > >> 2) Persia?
      > >> 3) Local invention?
      > >> 4) All of the above?
      > >>>>>>
      > >>
      > >
      > > Frankly, I have yet to read any information that
      > > suggests that ANY Mesopotamian or Persian content
      > > regarding secret fraternities.
      > >
      > > At this time, all I can see is Egyptian models.
      > >
      > > It's going to be hard to defend syncratism if no
      > > one provides any information for something OTHER
      > > than Egyptian, yes?
      > >
      > > George
      >
      > Maybe, but the existence of such societies among the Hopi in the
      > American Southwest is suggestive of the possibility of an indigenous
      > origin. Clearly such societies have existed outside of Egypt,
      unless
      > somehow Egyptians managed to get to the American Southwest.
      >
      > Regards
      > --
      > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...


      Thank you, Mike.

      George, I suppose I'm a bit confused here. May I assume you're still
      talking about Pythagorean secret fraternities? In Post #7673 you
      say, "My SPECIFIC interest is his organization of secret
      fraternities, and then his interest in ethical systems" You were
      referring specifically to Pythagoras.

      Then you state in Post #7677, "Frankly, I have yet to read any
      information that suggests that ANY Mesopotamian or Persian content
      regarding secret fraternities.

      At this time, all I can see is Egyptian models."

      I would be curious what information you are reading, if you haven't
      run across ANY suggestions that there could be more than Egyptian
      content.

      I just made a quick search and came up with this link, for instance,
      and there are more. One doesn't even have to agree with anything or
      everything presented, but the fact is – there IS information
      suggesting other than ONLY Egyptian content.

      And whether or not one agrees with the information in this link, it
      does discuss a Pythagorean synthesis from more than one tradition:

      http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/no_10_religious_influence_
      behind_essenes_pythagoreanism.htm


      As far as secret societies in general, here is an article you might
      find interesting, due to your interest in Freemasonry:

      http://www.americanmason.com/articlemain.ihtml?ID=87



      Cari
    • Wayne
      The Middle region, when you separate the light from the darkness you enter into the Twilight Zone, the World of the Imagination, Freedom of Mind, Divine Will.
      Message 170 of 170 , Jun 5, 2003
        The Middle region, when you separate the light from the darkness
        you enter into the Twilight Zone, the World of the Imagination,
        Freedom of Mind, Divine Will.

        To Truly be Good you must be Free from the knowledge, from having
        known, experienced wrong doing, you must be innocent.

        Innocence exists only when there is no Evil, a long as Evil exist
        Good is Evil and Evil is good, there is no innocence.

        In between the Light and the Darkness, Parallel Universes, the Two
        Worlds of Reality, One the World of Reality as seen in the light of
        day, the Reality of the Moment, the Here and Now, Reality that exists
        independent of our thoughts concerning it and the World of the
        Imagination, the middle World, the World of Illusion, Sin; Reality as
        seen in the Second light of the Sun, Moon Light, where thinly veiled
        shadowy figures lurk in the Darkest corners of the Mind.

        By the light of the Silvery Moon, Light that is separated out of the
        Darkness, Twice light.

        Illusion Trice Light, Reality hauled up out of the darkest depths of
        the abyss, the imagination.

        A Lie is the Truth, an Illusion is a Reality, Evil is Good, Good is
        Evil, Good and Evil is Evil.


        Yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pessy@c... wrote:
        > > lady_caritas writes:
        > >
        > > > contained in this line, "Within the present world, (reputedly)
        > there
        > > > is good and there is evil, (but) the world's goods are not
        > (really)
        > > > good, and its evils not (really) evil." IOW, "reputedly"
        > > > or "allegedly" or "so they say" makes me wonder. Would this
        be
        > a
        > > > Valentinian recounting a more literal, traditional notion of
        the
        > > > opposites, "good" and "evil," in comparison to a conception of
        > the
        > > > world not being (really) black and white? Or OTOH might this
        be
        > a
        > > > heresiologist relating a view secondhand or rather a novice
        > entering
        > > > an initiation process or even a Valentinian not entirely
        > convinced or
        > > > in agreement about the concepts of good and evil? Regardless,
        I
        > > > think we can at least glean some Valentinian ideas from this
        > passage,
        > > > as it speaks to hylic, psychic, and pneumatic natures, and it
        > > > certainly reiterates a common theme of resurrection now in
        this
        > > > lifetime, not waiting for some later time.
        > >
        > >
        > > no, it just merans that the world is evil, and good is out of the
        > world,
        > > whereas Zoroastrians see good and bad residing in the world.
        > >
        > >
        > > Klaus Schilling
        >
        >
        > Klaus, I suppose that is also a very likely interpretation. (My
        last
        > sentence of that paragraph was referring not only to the line just
        > previously discussed about "good" and "evil," but to other comments
        > in the GPh passage as a whole.) However, I guess my point was,
        > perhaps we could only assume the line related to Zoroastrian
        thought
        > when no direct mention is made of them and we don't even know the
        > original source or context of this whole passage. And, where does
        > the passage say that this world is only "evil," as you interpret?
        Or
        > do you think it is implied somehow?
        >
        > Also, considering your interpretation of that line, how does that
        fit
        > within the context of the remainder of the passage, with the author
        > defining the "midpoint" -- "**after** this world" -- as "evil"?
        >
        >
        > Cari
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