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Re: So where did the Pythagorean School get their "innovations"?

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  • George
    Dear PMCV, This is quite the stranglehold on discussion you are in engaging in. Okay, I ll bite: 1) What is the 4th possibility? 2) From other posts, I ve
    Message 1 of 170 , May 2, 2003
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      Dear PMCV,

      This is quite the stranglehold on discussion you are in
      engaging in. Okay, I'll bite:

      1) What is the 4th possibility?

      2) From other posts, I've heard PLENTY about how
      syncratic the influences are. And yet, every attempt
      I make to get you to discuss these amazing confluences
      of influences have left me with only two general
      ideas: a] that there are lots of them; and b] that
      you aren't convinced of the conventional views about
      Pythagoras.

      I don't want to sound terse.... but considering the
      blood-letting that was inflicted on me a few days ago,
      I was hoping that we could actually *start* the discussion
      on influences.

      Are we ready ... yet? I'm ready ANYTIME you are ready.
      And I ***do*** look forward to it. I promise.

      My SPECIFIC interest is his organization of secret
      fraternities, and then his interest in ethical systems.
      I have zero interest in the math and other metaphysics
      at this time.... though I'm quite happy with the idea
      that they can all be interrelated one way or another.

      :-)

      Cordially,

      George




      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > That could be an interesting subject George, but it may need some
      > clerification from you as to exactly which "innovations" you are
      > talking about. In the end, this secret society most likely got
      > influence form more than one place, and also came up with a few of
      > thier own ideas.
      >
      > I don't want to go off the subject too far here, but I thought I
      > would bring up an interesting example. Where I am from there is a
      > Native American tribe (Hopi) that has it's cultural, political, and
      > religious structure heavily dependant on a number of secret
      > societies. Some of these orders have some rather surprising
      > similarities with the Greek mysteries, with which I can fairly
      safely
      > say they had no contact whatsoever. A possible xplination for this
      is
      > that certain aspects of the "secret society" is jsut a fairly
      common
      > component to the human mind, and probably goes back into distant
      > prehistory.
      >
      > Of course, I'm assuming in this case George, you are talking about
      > more specific correlations. When we get to the later Neopythagorian
      > systems, I think that the origin is pretty definitively syncratic.
      > However, as I say... perhaps you can clarify the question you mean
      to
      > raise for club discussion a little here.
      >
      > There is also a 4th option you didn't offer BTW...
      >
      > 1) Egypt?
      > 2) Persia?
      > 3) Local invention?
      > 4) All of the above?
      >
      > PMCV
      >
      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "George" <historynow2002@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > I'm still hopeful that PMCV (and others if they like),
      > > will volunteer some thoughts on where the Pythagorean
      > > School (if the "real" Pythagoras is more legend than
      > > truth), got their "innovations" on secret fraternities?
      > >
      > > 1) Egypt?
      > > 2) Persia?
      > > 3) Local invention?
      > >
      > > George
    • Wayne
      The Middle region, when you separate the light from the darkness you enter into the Twilight Zone, the World of the Imagination, Freedom of Mind, Divine Will.
      Message 170 of 170 , Jun 5, 2003
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        The Middle region, when you separate the light from the darkness
        you enter into the Twilight Zone, the World of the Imagination,
        Freedom of Mind, Divine Will.

        To Truly be Good you must be Free from the knowledge, from having
        known, experienced wrong doing, you must be innocent.

        Innocence exists only when there is no Evil, a long as Evil exist
        Good is Evil and Evil is good, there is no innocence.

        In between the Light and the Darkness, Parallel Universes, the Two
        Worlds of Reality, One the World of Reality as seen in the light of
        day, the Reality of the Moment, the Here and Now, Reality that exists
        independent of our thoughts concerning it and the World of the
        Imagination, the middle World, the World of Illusion, Sin; Reality as
        seen in the Second light of the Sun, Moon Light, where thinly veiled
        shadowy figures lurk in the Darkest corners of the Mind.

        By the light of the Silvery Moon, Light that is separated out of the
        Darkness, Twice light.

        Illusion Trice Light, Reality hauled up out of the darkest depths of
        the abyss, the imagination.

        A Lie is the Truth, an Illusion is a Reality, Evil is Good, Good is
        Evil, Good and Evil is Evil.


        Yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pessy@c... wrote:
        > > lady_caritas writes:
        > >
        > > > contained in this line, "Within the present world, (reputedly)
        > there
        > > > is good and there is evil, (but) the world's goods are not
        > (really)
        > > > good, and its evils not (really) evil." IOW, "reputedly"
        > > > or "allegedly" or "so they say" makes me wonder. Would this
        be
        > a
        > > > Valentinian recounting a more literal, traditional notion of
        the
        > > > opposites, "good" and "evil," in comparison to a conception of
        > the
        > > > world not being (really) black and white? Or OTOH might this
        be
        > a
        > > > heresiologist relating a view secondhand or rather a novice
        > entering
        > > > an initiation process or even a Valentinian not entirely
        > convinced or
        > > > in agreement about the concepts of good and evil? Regardless,
        I
        > > > think we can at least glean some Valentinian ideas from this
        > passage,
        > > > as it speaks to hylic, psychic, and pneumatic natures, and it
        > > > certainly reiterates a common theme of resurrection now in
        this
        > > > lifetime, not waiting for some later time.
        > >
        > >
        > > no, it just merans that the world is evil, and good is out of the
        > world,
        > > whereas Zoroastrians see good and bad residing in the world.
        > >
        > >
        > > Klaus Schilling
        >
        >
        > Klaus, I suppose that is also a very likely interpretation. (My
        last
        > sentence of that paragraph was referring not only to the line just
        > previously discussed about "good" and "evil," but to other comments
        > in the GPh passage as a whole.) However, I guess my point was,
        > perhaps we could only assume the line related to Zoroastrian
        thought
        > when no direct mention is made of them and we don't even know the
        > original source or context of this whole passage. And, where does
        > the passage say that this world is only "evil," as you interpret?
        Or
        > do you think it is implied somehow?
        >
        > Also, considering your interpretation of that line, how does that
        fit
        > within the context of the remainder of the passage, with the author
        > defining the "midpoint" -- "**after** this world" -- as "evil"?
        >
        >
        > Cari
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