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Re: Investigation: The Alpha and the Omege = (Adam and Eve)

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  • lady_caritas
    ... Could you please show how your post in any way relates to the focus of this group, which is Gnosticism? Thank you, Cari
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 3 9:52 AM
      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Galindo"
      <saintggabriel@y...> wrote:
      > Daniel 12 "Saint Michael"
      > http://www.geocities.com/wbwbwb111/resurrection.html



      Could you please show how your post in any way relates to the focus
      of this group, which is Gnosticism?

      Thank you,

      Cari
    • pessy@chez.com
      ... note that the same post appeared on a great many of yahoo list Klaus Schilling
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 3 11:34 AM
        lady_caritas writes:
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Galindo"
        > <saintggabriel@y...> wrote:
        > > Daniel 12 "Saint Michael"
        > > http://www.geocities.com/wbwbwb111/resurrection.html
        >
        >
        >
        > Could you please show how your post in any way relates to the focus
        > of this group, which is Gnosticism?

        note that the same post appeared on a great many of yahoo list

        Klaus Schilling
      • Terje Bergersen
        ... Milady, I did not post this link - It is difficult to say much of the contents because the author`s first language isnt english and he appears quite
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 4 3:21 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Galindo"
          > <saintggabriel@y...> wrote:
          > > Daniel 12 "Saint Michael"
          > > http://www.geocities.com/wbwbwb111/resurrection.html
          >
          >
          >
          > Could you please show how your post in any way relates to the focus of
          > this group, which is Gnosticism?

          Milady, I did not post this link - It is difficult to say much of the
          contents because the author`s first language isnt english and he appears
          quite undecisive of where he is going with the essay, it cites some
          gnostic sources and it appears he has adopted some gnostics way of
          interpreting "famous", or rather popular scraps of scripture..

          However , the title of the post intrigues me somewhat.

          I am in the process of finishing my reading of Yuri Stoganov "The Other
          God" - which is a very thorough historical survey of religious dualism
          from late antiquity until the end of the Cathar movement.


          Among both Manichaeans, Cathars and even some Gnostic groups - You will
          find _two origins_ teachings which are essentially dualist
          in nature - among these are the discussion of the fallen angels and their
          offspring. Remember the Nephilim debates?
          Anyways, a significant feature among the Languedocian Cathars is so-called
          _traducianism_ which is a counterweight to other Cathar groups speculation
          about Metempsychosis; traducianism essentially features the position of a
          _substantial_ origin for mankind from one or two ancestors; the two
          ancestors variant of this posits that the souls of mankind originate from
          _one substance_ and _one subject_ or personality which got imprisoned in
          the material body by the demiurge in order for his control over the being
          in question, and also for the "multiplication" of such glory the demiurge
          believes to generate from such control, by the introduction of
          reproduction (i.e. sexuality - the ascetic and encratic gnostics
          championed a view that either the demiurge or the rebellious (yet very bad
          and evil in the same tone) angel Satan (not being identical to the
          demiurge in those versions), and example is the apocryphal Book of the
          Angel Baruch by Justinius the heresiarch (early 2nd century ce).
          In one version - the angel of air and angel of water is associated with
          Adam and Eve, being their original nature - these are fooled by Lucifer to
          procur the means of ordering and "building" the material world (the
          earth), Eve for instance, is instructed to draw up from "her waters" earth
          so that dry land can divide the waters, this account is received as an
          sexually explicit metaphor by the polemists who wrote about Cathar legends
          and doctrines - This "sin" of acting upon the suggestion of the
          "lightbringer"
          is again connected, either by the Cathars or by polemists, it remains
          unclear - to the original sin of "disobedience to the true God" by
          following the impulse of the tempter in paradise; but it is clear that
          neither of the Angels are actually informed there is a true God as they
          are found to be sublunar and subcelestial denizens of an unfinished and
          undefined "orb". Adam and Eve after obeying the commands of Lucifer, with
          the promise of "joining in the glory and command over the entire creation"
          -consequently are betrayed by Lucifer, as the hosts of the angels are
          betrayed by him prior to this - and cast into material bodies. Their
          light-powers are divided up as loot by the servants of Lucifer (like Jesus
          clothes by the soldiers), one part of the power of Eve becomes the source
          for the moon, one part of the power of Adam becomes the source for the
          light of the sun, otherwise their light is used to create stars in the
          firmaments and the creation of the planets. Traducianism posits that there
          are no individual souls as such, each "individual" is nothing but an
          unredeemed and exiled "particle" or "fragment" of the original Great soul
          - and presents a doctrine of how the division came about, the evolution of
          this division as well as predicting a reassembling, or reintegration of
          the small parts into the Great Soul. This Great Soul is invariably refered
          to as Adam Kadmon, Adam+Eve the Androgyne etc.

          Set against traducianism we also find a Cathar doctrine of individual
          souls, which originally were angelic beings lured into the world by the
          lightbringer - who represented a consistent population of spiritual beings
          in the second and third heaven. They are either slain or betrayed and ends
          up incarnate in material bodies, their Spiritual or astral bodies remain
          on the battlefield were they are either slain or betrayed by Lucifer and
          his invisible buddy the Beast with Four Heads (a hungry entity
          transcendent of the dual contending gods and realms, he is comparable to
          the demon Yachtabanas (the only actual _demon_ in this particular
          mythology) in the Pistis Sophia system; his ambition is to devour the all
          and shit it out essentially, the story reports he savours Lucifer already
          at their initial meeting where L. is seduced (sic!) by him in one of his
          guises, L. corrupted then are forced to give him his creative powers,soul
          and light - so all that remains is ambition,jealousy and arrogance; so in
          a sense L. is an automaton or drone for the Beast and his real ambition is
          no longer dominion but destruction )as the "dry bones" seen by Ezekiel in
          his vision.
          The visions and prophecies indicating an eschatology of the Apokatastasis
          Panthon (the return of all beings into their constituent origin) among the
          Cathars aspires that through unions earthbound in the sacred and secret
          rite of Consolamentum (the consoling), the souls after death go to clothe
          itself in its former celestial body and become reunited with its guardian
          spirit which it left behind in the 2nd and 3rd heaven. Traducianism is
          closer to the Manichaean doctrine on account of the inference of one
          singular soul or arch-being to which all sparks, all light-fragments are
          redeemed and repatriated with, it does not teach individual free will, it
          does not teach reincarnation proper, it does teach predestination in the
          sense that either this being is doomed or it is destined to be restored.

          Note that this touches our prior discussion of the Dionysius-Zagreus myth
          embedded in the Orphic anthropology: Dionysius-Zagreus is dismembered by
          the Titans who then are reduced to ashes by Zeus lightning - from the
          mould of ashes and the body of Dionysius the form and substance of first
          Man is grafted , presumably the androgyne is divided into two to make
          generative activity possible - but he is originally one person who becomes
          the forefather of all of humanity. When the elements of the Titans are
          separated out of this form, which is the project of Orphic askesis - the
          person of the demigod Dionysius-Zagreus eventually is restored in the
          individual, when this individual crosses over Styx he is repatriated with
          the original and archetypal Dionysius-Zagreus so eventually he becomes
          whole on account of the efforts of his people (or "members").

          Considering this, a Cathar could read Daniel 12 (it is speculated that the
          Cathars, on account of refusing to acknowledge the authority or even good
          nature of Moses and his Torah, refused the entire Old Testament as well -
          however, how is it construed that the Cathars make use of the Psalms, the
          Book of Proverbs, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Daniel to the extent that they do,
          and also the pseudepigrapha and apocrypha associated with the Canonical
          Prophetbooks and Patriarch stories - such as the Vision of Isaiah, the
          Testament of Abraham (not the Mormon one, but one lost to us), the Life of
          Adam and Eve, the Book of Sirach (sic!) and both Books of Enoch?)

          Daniel 12
          12:1. But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who
          standeth for the children of thy people: and a time shall come, such as
          never was from the time that nations began, even until that time. And at
          that time shall thy people be saved, every one that shall be found written
          in the book.
          12:2. And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake:
          some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.
          12:3. But they that are learned, shall shine as the brightness of the
          firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all
          eternity.

          To refer to the process of indivuating and separating from the _mixture_
          as being the meaning of people/mankind - and Judgement as this process of
          purification. The stars reference they would doubtless take literally
          since either a: the powers which the angels or the power which Adam/Eve
          lost or b: the souls originating from the cardinal stars of the milky way
          to them referred to the "stars"; to use occult chargon "every man and
          woman is a star". Michael is to the Cathars the slayer of the dragon and
          the one who drove Lucifer out of the heavens (along with a third of the
          hosts of heavenly angels which account for the situation of the spiritual
          being found in the corporeal), Michael is also in some Cathar doctrines,
          similar to the Ebionite judeo-christian angeological speculations
          concerning Christ - considered to be none other than the astral alter ego
          of Jesus, a champion warrior in the sense that he comes to earth,
          voluntarely clothes himself in corruption so as to demonstrate that it is
          possible to follow the reverse course and unclothe oneself and become
          liberated from that predicament. A profound inspiration for all Cathars
          were Origen - and Origen preaches a dual reading of the Cross of the
          Crufixion - on the visible plane it is seen as being the elevation of the
          Son of Man on the Cross, suffering on account of Mankind - on the
          invisible plane it is a great travesty, an anathema and a mystery, because
          by way of deception the Son of God has fixed Lucifer/Satan/the Contender
          along with all of his glory on the Cross so that it might be inspected and
          seen to be vanquished ("you have already driven him out and are
          victorious" - the Gospel of Truth states); the Cathars must have received
          notice of Peri Archon, the great controversial exegesis of the scriptures
          concerning Genesis and Eschaton by Origen, since this reading doubtless
          informs and inspires their irreverence and hatefullness towards the
          Crucifix/Cross proper of imperial christendom as well as their at times
          bizarre accounts of dual meaning events in the histories not only about
          Jesus but about the Apostles and later martyrs.Later the thematic of the
          serpent (representing Lucifer/Satan NB!) crucified will show up profoundly
          in a lot alchemical manuscripts, chiefly that of Nicholas Flamel and
          Abraham Eleazar.


          Pax Pleromae


          --
          Terje Dahl Bergersen
          terje@...
          http://terje.bergersen.net/
        • lady_caritas
          ... Other ... dualism ... Terje, what an interesting exposé. Thank you. I have a friend who recommended this very book, _The Other God_. He said it was
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 6 11:18 AM
            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Bergersen" <terje@b...>
            wrote:
            >

            > I am in the process of finishing my reading of Yuri Stoganov "The
            Other
            > God" - which is a very thorough historical survey of religious
            dualism
            > from late antiquity until the end of the Cathar movement.


            Terje, what an interesting exposé. Thank you.

            I have a friend who recommended this very book, _The Other God_. He
            said it was quite scholarly, detailed, and heavily annotated,
            charting the flow of religious dualism you mention.


            >
            > Among both Manichaeans, Cathars and even some Gnostic groups - You
            will
            > find _two origins_ teachings which are essentially dualist
            > in nature - among these are the discussion of the fallen angels and
            their
            > offspring. Remember the Nephilim debates?
            > Anyways, a significant feature among the Languedocian Cathars is so-
            called
            > _traducianism_ which is a counterweight to other Cathar groups
            speculation
            > about Metempsychosis; traducianism essentially features the
            position of a
            > _substantial_ origin for mankind from one or two ancestors; the two
            > ancestors variant of this posits that the souls of mankind
            originate from
            > _one substance_ and _one subject_ or personality which got
            imprisoned in
            > the material body by the demiurge in order for his control over the
            being
            > in question, and also for the "multiplication" of such glory the
            demiurge
            > believes to generate from such control, by the introduction of
            > reproduction ...

            [...]

            > Traducianism posits that there
            > are no individual souls as such, each "individual" is nothing but an
            > unredeemed and exiled "particle" or "fragment" of the original
            Great soul
            > - and presents a doctrine of how the division came about, the
            evolution of
            > this division as well as predicting a reassembling, or
            reintegration of
            > the small parts into the Great Soul. This Great Soul is invariably
            refered
            > to as Adam Kadmon, Adam+Eve the Androgyne etc.



            Your discussion of traducianism reminds me of what a different take
            the Cathars would have had in the myth variation of a demiurgic
            element imprisoning an original soul substance, compared to
            traducianism (followed by Tertullian, Luther, and I believe the
            Eastern church), for example (as interpreted by Tertullian), where
            the soul as well as the body come directly from the human parents
            (soul substance transmitted through corporeal semen). In the latter
            case, even though "God" originally breathed the breath of life into
            Adam, the propagation of a "sinful" nature due to transmission of a
            nonmaterial nature (soul) by secondary means, material hosts (the
            parents and all their genes, etc.), would tend to support their view
            of man's basically tainted, depraved nature even better than
            creationism in which every soul is immediately created out of nothing
            by "God." Please correct me if my understanding is not accurate here.

            The Cathar reassembling of divided or exiled "particles" into an
            original "Great Soul" seems to resemble a bit more of a gnostic theme
            of reintegration into an original androgyny or unity.


            Cari
          • Mike Leavitt
            Hello lady_caritas ... It also sounds mor Hindu or Buddhist. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 6 1:05 PM
              Hello lady_caritas

              On 06-Apr-03, you wrote:

              > The Cathar reassembling of divided or exiled "particles" into an
              > original "Great Soul" seems to resemble a bit more of a gnostic
              > theme of reintegration into an original androgyny or unity.

              It also sounds mor Hindu or Buddhist.

              Regards
              --
              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
            • Steve Wenninger
              ... Stoganov The ... He ... You ... and ... so- ... two ... the ... but an ... invariably ... take ... latter ... into ... a ... view ... nothing ... here.
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 6 10:59 PM
                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                wrote:
                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Bergersen" <terje@b...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                >
                > > I am in the process of finishing my reading of Yuri
                Stoganov "The
                > Other
                > > God" - which is a very thorough historical survey of religious
                > dualism
                > > from late antiquity until the end of the Cathar movement.
                >
                >
                > Terje, what an interesting exposé. Thank you.
                >
                > I have a friend who recommended this very book, _The Other God_.
                He
                > said it was quite scholarly, detailed, and heavily annotated,
                > charting the flow of religious dualism you mention.
                >
                >
                > >
                > > Among both Manichaeans, Cathars and even some Gnostic groups -
                You
                > will
                > > find _two origins_ teachings which are essentially dualist
                > > in nature - among these are the discussion of the fallen angels
                and
                > their
                > > offspring. Remember the Nephilim debates?
                > > Anyways, a significant feature among the Languedocian Cathars is
                so-
                > called
                > > _traducianism_ which is a counterweight to other Cathar groups
                > speculation
                > > about Metempsychosis; traducianism essentially features the
                > position of a
                > > _substantial_ origin for mankind from one or two ancestors; the
                two
                > > ancestors variant of this posits that the souls of mankind
                > originate from
                > > _one substance_ and _one subject_ or personality which got
                > imprisoned in
                > > the material body by the demiurge in order for his control over
                the
                > being
                > > in question, and also for the "multiplication" of such glory the
                > demiurge
                > > believes to generate from such control, by the introduction of
                > > reproduction ...
                >
                > [...]
                >
                > > Traducianism posits that there
                > > are no individual souls as such, each "individual" is nothing
                but an
                > > unredeemed and exiled "particle" or "fragment" of the original
                > Great soul
                > > - and presents a doctrine of how the division came about, the
                > evolution of
                > > this division as well as predicting a reassembling, or
                > reintegration of
                > > the small parts into the Great Soul. This Great Soul is
                invariably
                > refered
                > > to as Adam Kadmon, Adam+Eve the Androgyne etc.
                >
                >
                >
                > Your discussion of traducianism reminds me of what a different
                take
                > the Cathars would have had in the myth variation of a demiurgic
                > element imprisoning an original soul substance, compared to
                > traducianism (followed by Tertullian, Luther, and I believe the
                > Eastern church), for example (as interpreted by Tertullian), where
                > the soul as well as the body come directly from the human parents
                > (soul substance transmitted through corporeal semen). In the
                latter
                > case, even though "God" originally breathed the breath of life
                into
                > Adam, the propagation of a "sinful" nature due to transmission of
                a
                > nonmaterial nature (soul) by secondary means, material hosts (the
                > parents and all their genes, etc.), would tend to support their
                view
                > of man's basically tainted, depraved nature even better than
                > creationism in which every soul is immediately created out of
                nothing
                > by "God." Please correct me if my understanding is not accurate
                here.
                >
                > The Cathar reassembling of divided or exiled "particles" into an
                > original "Great Soul" seems to resemble a bit more of a gnostic
                theme
                > of reintegration into an original androgyny or unity.
                >
                >
                > Cari

                This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the reason
                for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel" could
                not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve
              • blackfire_al
                ... reason ... Okay, just some questions. Where did this vessel come from? Who created it? The same God that over-filled it thereby breaking it? Doesn t
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 8 8:50 AM
                  > This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                  > Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the
                  reason
                  > for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel" could
                  > not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve

                  Okay, just some questions. Where did this "vessel" come from? Who
                  created it? The same 'God' that over-filled it thereby breaking it?
                  Doesn't this put some onus or culpability upon this self-same God as
                  to what became a tragic accident? And isn't there this tendencey
                  to "blame the victim"; God can't be wrong so it must be us, we are
                  guilty, we are evil, we have original sin yadda yadda. Sorry, felt
                  like playing devil's advocate. (watching nervously over-head for
                  lightening bolts)

                  Blackfire
                • Steve Wenninger
                  ... could ... Who ... it? ... as ... Dear Blackfire; I m afraid I can t answer for Isaac Luria. You will have to find his reincarnation and ask that person.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 8 2:30 PM
                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "blackfire_al"
                    <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                    > > This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                    > > Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the
                    > reason
                    > > for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel"
                    could
                    > > not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve
                    >
                    > Okay, just some questions. Where did this "vessel" come from?
                    Who
                    > created it? The same 'God' that over-filled it thereby breaking
                    it?
                    > Doesn't this put some onus or culpability upon this self-same God
                    as
                    > to what became a tragic accident? And isn't there this tendencey
                    > to "blame the victim"; God can't be wrong so it must be us, we are
                    > guilty, we are evil, we have original sin yadda yadda. Sorry, felt
                    > like playing devil's advocate. (watching nervously over-head for
                    > lightening bolts)
                    >
                    > Blackfire

                    Dear Blackfire; I'm afraid I can't answer for Isaac Luria. You will
                    have to find his reincarnation and ask that person. [lol] However,
                    if you want my opinion, I think that God is playing hide-and-seek
                    with Him/Herself, and that polar contrariety is part of the rules of
                    the game. Peace, Steve
                  • Steve Wenninger
                    ... could ... Who ... it? ... as ... Dear Blackfire; I m afraid I can t answer for Isaac Luria. You will have to find his reincarnation and ask that person.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 8 2:30 PM
                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "blackfire_al"
                      <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                      > > This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                      > > Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the
                      > reason
                      > > for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel"
                      could
                      > > not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve
                      >
                      > Okay, just some questions. Where did this "vessel" come from?
                      Who
                      > created it? The same 'God' that over-filled it thereby breaking
                      it?
                      > Doesn't this put some onus or culpability upon this self-same God
                      as
                      > to what became a tragic accident? And isn't there this tendencey
                      > to "blame the victim"; God can't be wrong so it must be us, we are
                      > guilty, we are evil, we have original sin yadda yadda. Sorry, felt
                      > like playing devil's advocate. (watching nervously over-head for
                      > lightening bolts)
                      >
                      > Blackfire

                      Dear Blackfire; I'm afraid I can't answer for Isaac Luria. You will
                      have to find his reincarnation and ask that person. [lol] However,
                      if you want my opinion, I think that God is playing hide-and-seek
                      with Him/Herself, and that polar contrariety is part of the rules of
                      the game. Peace, Steve
                    • Wayne
                      The Vessel is the Holy Grail.---- O When God Breathed into Man s nostrils, it was the Way, the Nature, the Spiritual Reality of First Cause that became a
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 10 8:56 AM
                        The Vessel is the Holy Grail.---->O

                        When God Breathed into Man's nostrils, it was the Way, the Nature,
                        the Spiritual Reality of First Cause that became a Living Soul, a
                        Manifest Physical Reality.

                        The Reality of First Cause alive in the Flesh, the Boundlessness of
                        the Mystical Female, Eve, Man's Non-Physical, Non-Material, Spiritual
                        Side, Femininity, Man's Immortal Soul.

                        Eve, Femininity is a Free Spirit that can not be bound by the
                        Material World of Reality, a Physical Vessel.



                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "blackfire_al"
                        <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                        > > This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                        > > Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the
                        > reason
                        > > for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel"
                        could
                        > > not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve
                        >
                        > Okay, just some questions. Where did this "vessel" come from? Who
                        > created it? The same 'God' that over-filled it thereby breaking
                        it?
                        > Doesn't this put some onus or culpability upon this self-same God
                        as
                        > to what became a tragic accident? And isn't there this tendencey
                        > to "blame the victim"; God can't be wrong so it must be us, we are
                        > guilty, we are evil, we have original sin yadda yadda. Sorry, felt
                        > like playing devil's advocate. (watching nervously over-head for
                        > lightening bolts)
                        >
                        > Blackfire
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