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Investigation: The Alpha and the Omege = (Adam and Eve)

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  • Jose Galindo
    Daniel 12 Saint Michael http://www.geocities.com/wbwbwb111/resurrection.html
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 3, 2003
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    • lady_caritas
      ... Could you please show how your post in any way relates to the focus of this group, which is Gnosticism? Thank you, Cari
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 3, 2003
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Galindo"
        <saintggabriel@y...> wrote:
        > Daniel 12 "Saint Michael"
        > http://www.geocities.com/wbwbwb111/resurrection.html



        Could you please show how your post in any way relates to the focus
        of this group, which is Gnosticism?

        Thank you,

        Cari
      • pessy@chez.com
        ... note that the same post appeared on a great many of yahoo list Klaus Schilling
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 3, 2003
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          lady_caritas writes:
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Galindo"
          > <saintggabriel@y...> wrote:
          > > Daniel 12 "Saint Michael"
          > > http://www.geocities.com/wbwbwb111/resurrection.html
          >
          >
          >
          > Could you please show how your post in any way relates to the focus
          > of this group, which is Gnosticism?

          note that the same post appeared on a great many of yahoo list

          Klaus Schilling
        • Terje Bergersen
          ... Milady, I did not post this link - It is difficult to say much of the contents because the author`s first language isnt english and he appears quite
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 4, 2003
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Jose Galindo"
            > <saintggabriel@y...> wrote:
            > > Daniel 12 "Saint Michael"
            > > http://www.geocities.com/wbwbwb111/resurrection.html
            >
            >
            >
            > Could you please show how your post in any way relates to the focus of
            > this group, which is Gnosticism?

            Milady, I did not post this link - It is difficult to say much of the
            contents because the author`s first language isnt english and he appears
            quite undecisive of where he is going with the essay, it cites some
            gnostic sources and it appears he has adopted some gnostics way of
            interpreting "famous", or rather popular scraps of scripture..

            However , the title of the post intrigues me somewhat.

            I am in the process of finishing my reading of Yuri Stoganov "The Other
            God" - which is a very thorough historical survey of religious dualism
            from late antiquity until the end of the Cathar movement.


            Among both Manichaeans, Cathars and even some Gnostic groups - You will
            find _two origins_ teachings which are essentially dualist
            in nature - among these are the discussion of the fallen angels and their
            offspring. Remember the Nephilim debates?
            Anyways, a significant feature among the Languedocian Cathars is so-called
            _traducianism_ which is a counterweight to other Cathar groups speculation
            about Metempsychosis; traducianism essentially features the position of a
            _substantial_ origin for mankind from one or two ancestors; the two
            ancestors variant of this posits that the souls of mankind originate from
            _one substance_ and _one subject_ or personality which got imprisoned in
            the material body by the demiurge in order for his control over the being
            in question, and also for the "multiplication" of such glory the demiurge
            believes to generate from such control, by the introduction of
            reproduction (i.e. sexuality - the ascetic and encratic gnostics
            championed a view that either the demiurge or the rebellious (yet very bad
            and evil in the same tone) angel Satan (not being identical to the
            demiurge in those versions), and example is the apocryphal Book of the
            Angel Baruch by Justinius the heresiarch (early 2nd century ce).
            In one version - the angel of air and angel of water is associated with
            Adam and Eve, being their original nature - these are fooled by Lucifer to
            procur the means of ordering and "building" the material world (the
            earth), Eve for instance, is instructed to draw up from "her waters" earth
            so that dry land can divide the waters, this account is received as an
            sexually explicit metaphor by the polemists who wrote about Cathar legends
            and doctrines - This "sin" of acting upon the suggestion of the
            "lightbringer"
            is again connected, either by the Cathars or by polemists, it remains
            unclear - to the original sin of "disobedience to the true God" by
            following the impulse of the tempter in paradise; but it is clear that
            neither of the Angels are actually informed there is a true God as they
            are found to be sublunar and subcelestial denizens of an unfinished and
            undefined "orb". Adam and Eve after obeying the commands of Lucifer, with
            the promise of "joining in the glory and command over the entire creation"
            -consequently are betrayed by Lucifer, as the hosts of the angels are
            betrayed by him prior to this - and cast into material bodies. Their
            light-powers are divided up as loot by the servants of Lucifer (like Jesus
            clothes by the soldiers), one part of the power of Eve becomes the source
            for the moon, one part of the power of Adam becomes the source for the
            light of the sun, otherwise their light is used to create stars in the
            firmaments and the creation of the planets. Traducianism posits that there
            are no individual souls as such, each "individual" is nothing but an
            unredeemed and exiled "particle" or "fragment" of the original Great soul
            - and presents a doctrine of how the division came about, the evolution of
            this division as well as predicting a reassembling, or reintegration of
            the small parts into the Great Soul. This Great Soul is invariably refered
            to as Adam Kadmon, Adam+Eve the Androgyne etc.

            Set against traducianism we also find a Cathar doctrine of individual
            souls, which originally were angelic beings lured into the world by the
            lightbringer - who represented a consistent population of spiritual beings
            in the second and third heaven. They are either slain or betrayed and ends
            up incarnate in material bodies, their Spiritual or astral bodies remain
            on the battlefield were they are either slain or betrayed by Lucifer and
            his invisible buddy the Beast with Four Heads (a hungry entity
            transcendent of the dual contending gods and realms, he is comparable to
            the demon Yachtabanas (the only actual _demon_ in this particular
            mythology) in the Pistis Sophia system; his ambition is to devour the all
            and shit it out essentially, the story reports he savours Lucifer already
            at their initial meeting where L. is seduced (sic!) by him in one of his
            guises, L. corrupted then are forced to give him his creative powers,soul
            and light - so all that remains is ambition,jealousy and arrogance; so in
            a sense L. is an automaton or drone for the Beast and his real ambition is
            no longer dominion but destruction )as the "dry bones" seen by Ezekiel in
            his vision.
            The visions and prophecies indicating an eschatology of the Apokatastasis
            Panthon (the return of all beings into their constituent origin) among the
            Cathars aspires that through unions earthbound in the sacred and secret
            rite of Consolamentum (the consoling), the souls after death go to clothe
            itself in its former celestial body and become reunited with its guardian
            spirit which it left behind in the 2nd and 3rd heaven. Traducianism is
            closer to the Manichaean doctrine on account of the inference of one
            singular soul or arch-being to which all sparks, all light-fragments are
            redeemed and repatriated with, it does not teach individual free will, it
            does not teach reincarnation proper, it does teach predestination in the
            sense that either this being is doomed or it is destined to be restored.

            Note that this touches our prior discussion of the Dionysius-Zagreus myth
            embedded in the Orphic anthropology: Dionysius-Zagreus is dismembered by
            the Titans who then are reduced to ashes by Zeus lightning - from the
            mould of ashes and the body of Dionysius the form and substance of first
            Man is grafted , presumably the androgyne is divided into two to make
            generative activity possible - but he is originally one person who becomes
            the forefather of all of humanity. When the elements of the Titans are
            separated out of this form, which is the project of Orphic askesis - the
            person of the demigod Dionysius-Zagreus eventually is restored in the
            individual, when this individual crosses over Styx he is repatriated with
            the original and archetypal Dionysius-Zagreus so eventually he becomes
            whole on account of the efforts of his people (or "members").

            Considering this, a Cathar could read Daniel 12 (it is speculated that the
            Cathars, on account of refusing to acknowledge the authority or even good
            nature of Moses and his Torah, refused the entire Old Testament as well -
            however, how is it construed that the Cathars make use of the Psalms, the
            Book of Proverbs, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Daniel to the extent that they do,
            and also the pseudepigrapha and apocrypha associated with the Canonical
            Prophetbooks and Patriarch stories - such as the Vision of Isaiah, the
            Testament of Abraham (not the Mormon one, but one lost to us), the Life of
            Adam and Eve, the Book of Sirach (sic!) and both Books of Enoch?)

            Daniel 12
            12:1. But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who
            standeth for the children of thy people: and a time shall come, such as
            never was from the time that nations began, even until that time. And at
            that time shall thy people be saved, every one that shall be found written
            in the book.
            12:2. And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake:
            some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.
            12:3. But they that are learned, shall shine as the brightness of the
            firmament: and they that instruct many to justice, as stars for all
            eternity.

            To refer to the process of indivuating and separating from the _mixture_
            as being the meaning of people/mankind - and Judgement as this process of
            purification. The stars reference they would doubtless take literally
            since either a: the powers which the angels or the power which Adam/Eve
            lost or b: the souls originating from the cardinal stars of the milky way
            to them referred to the "stars"; to use occult chargon "every man and
            woman is a star". Michael is to the Cathars the slayer of the dragon and
            the one who drove Lucifer out of the heavens (along with a third of the
            hosts of heavenly angels which account for the situation of the spiritual
            being found in the corporeal), Michael is also in some Cathar doctrines,
            similar to the Ebionite judeo-christian angeological speculations
            concerning Christ - considered to be none other than the astral alter ego
            of Jesus, a champion warrior in the sense that he comes to earth,
            voluntarely clothes himself in corruption so as to demonstrate that it is
            possible to follow the reverse course and unclothe oneself and become
            liberated from that predicament. A profound inspiration for all Cathars
            were Origen - and Origen preaches a dual reading of the Cross of the
            Crufixion - on the visible plane it is seen as being the elevation of the
            Son of Man on the Cross, suffering on account of Mankind - on the
            invisible plane it is a great travesty, an anathema and a mystery, because
            by way of deception the Son of God has fixed Lucifer/Satan/the Contender
            along with all of his glory on the Cross so that it might be inspected and
            seen to be vanquished ("you have already driven him out and are
            victorious" - the Gospel of Truth states); the Cathars must have received
            notice of Peri Archon, the great controversial exegesis of the scriptures
            concerning Genesis and Eschaton by Origen, since this reading doubtless
            informs and inspires their irreverence and hatefullness towards the
            Crucifix/Cross proper of imperial christendom as well as their at times
            bizarre accounts of dual meaning events in the histories not only about
            Jesus but about the Apostles and later martyrs.Later the thematic of the
            serpent (representing Lucifer/Satan NB!) crucified will show up profoundly
            in a lot alchemical manuscripts, chiefly that of Nicholas Flamel and
            Abraham Eleazar.


            Pax Pleromae


            --
            Terje Dahl Bergersen
            terje@...
            http://terje.bergersen.net/
          • lady_caritas
            ... Other ... dualism ... Terje, what an interesting exposé. Thank you. I have a friend who recommended this very book, _The Other God_. He said it was
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 6, 2003
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Bergersen" <terje@b...>
              wrote:
              >

              > I am in the process of finishing my reading of Yuri Stoganov "The
              Other
              > God" - which is a very thorough historical survey of religious
              dualism
              > from late antiquity until the end of the Cathar movement.


              Terje, what an interesting exposé. Thank you.

              I have a friend who recommended this very book, _The Other God_. He
              said it was quite scholarly, detailed, and heavily annotated,
              charting the flow of religious dualism you mention.


              >
              > Among both Manichaeans, Cathars and even some Gnostic groups - You
              will
              > find _two origins_ teachings which are essentially dualist
              > in nature - among these are the discussion of the fallen angels and
              their
              > offspring. Remember the Nephilim debates?
              > Anyways, a significant feature among the Languedocian Cathars is so-
              called
              > _traducianism_ which is a counterweight to other Cathar groups
              speculation
              > about Metempsychosis; traducianism essentially features the
              position of a
              > _substantial_ origin for mankind from one or two ancestors; the two
              > ancestors variant of this posits that the souls of mankind
              originate from
              > _one substance_ and _one subject_ or personality which got
              imprisoned in
              > the material body by the demiurge in order for his control over the
              being
              > in question, and also for the "multiplication" of such glory the
              demiurge
              > believes to generate from such control, by the introduction of
              > reproduction ...

              [...]

              > Traducianism posits that there
              > are no individual souls as such, each "individual" is nothing but an
              > unredeemed and exiled "particle" or "fragment" of the original
              Great soul
              > - and presents a doctrine of how the division came about, the
              evolution of
              > this division as well as predicting a reassembling, or
              reintegration of
              > the small parts into the Great Soul. This Great Soul is invariably
              refered
              > to as Adam Kadmon, Adam+Eve the Androgyne etc.



              Your discussion of traducianism reminds me of what a different take
              the Cathars would have had in the myth variation of a demiurgic
              element imprisoning an original soul substance, compared to
              traducianism (followed by Tertullian, Luther, and I believe the
              Eastern church), for example (as interpreted by Tertullian), where
              the soul as well as the body come directly from the human parents
              (soul substance transmitted through corporeal semen). In the latter
              case, even though "God" originally breathed the breath of life into
              Adam, the propagation of a "sinful" nature due to transmission of a
              nonmaterial nature (soul) by secondary means, material hosts (the
              parents and all their genes, etc.), would tend to support their view
              of man's basically tainted, depraved nature even better than
              creationism in which every soul is immediately created out of nothing
              by "God." Please correct me if my understanding is not accurate here.

              The Cathar reassembling of divided or exiled "particles" into an
              original "Great Soul" seems to resemble a bit more of a gnostic theme
              of reintegration into an original androgyny or unity.


              Cari
            • Mike Leavitt
              Hello lady_caritas ... It also sounds mor Hindu or Buddhist. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 6, 2003
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                Hello lady_caritas

                On 06-Apr-03, you wrote:

                > The Cathar reassembling of divided or exiled "particles" into an
                > original "Great Soul" seems to resemble a bit more of a gnostic
                > theme of reintegration into an original androgyny or unity.

                It also sounds mor Hindu or Buddhist.

                Regards
                --
                Mike Leavitt ac998@...
              • Steve Wenninger
                ... Stoganov The ... He ... You ... and ... so- ... two ... the ... but an ... invariably ... take ... latter ... into ... a ... view ... nothing ... here.
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 6, 2003
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Bergersen" <terje@b...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I am in the process of finishing my reading of Yuri
                  Stoganov "The
                  > Other
                  > > God" - which is a very thorough historical survey of religious
                  > dualism
                  > > from late antiquity until the end of the Cathar movement.
                  >
                  >
                  > Terje, what an interesting exposé. Thank you.
                  >
                  > I have a friend who recommended this very book, _The Other God_.
                  He
                  > said it was quite scholarly, detailed, and heavily annotated,
                  > charting the flow of religious dualism you mention.
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Among both Manichaeans, Cathars and even some Gnostic groups -
                  You
                  > will
                  > > find _two origins_ teachings which are essentially dualist
                  > > in nature - among these are the discussion of the fallen angels
                  and
                  > their
                  > > offspring. Remember the Nephilim debates?
                  > > Anyways, a significant feature among the Languedocian Cathars is
                  so-
                  > called
                  > > _traducianism_ which is a counterweight to other Cathar groups
                  > speculation
                  > > about Metempsychosis; traducianism essentially features the
                  > position of a
                  > > _substantial_ origin for mankind from one or two ancestors; the
                  two
                  > > ancestors variant of this posits that the souls of mankind
                  > originate from
                  > > _one substance_ and _one subject_ or personality which got
                  > imprisoned in
                  > > the material body by the demiurge in order for his control over
                  the
                  > being
                  > > in question, and also for the "multiplication" of such glory the
                  > demiurge
                  > > believes to generate from such control, by the introduction of
                  > > reproduction ...
                  >
                  > [...]
                  >
                  > > Traducianism posits that there
                  > > are no individual souls as such, each "individual" is nothing
                  but an
                  > > unredeemed and exiled "particle" or "fragment" of the original
                  > Great soul
                  > > - and presents a doctrine of how the division came about, the
                  > evolution of
                  > > this division as well as predicting a reassembling, or
                  > reintegration of
                  > > the small parts into the Great Soul. This Great Soul is
                  invariably
                  > refered
                  > > to as Adam Kadmon, Adam+Eve the Androgyne etc.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your discussion of traducianism reminds me of what a different
                  take
                  > the Cathars would have had in the myth variation of a demiurgic
                  > element imprisoning an original soul substance, compared to
                  > traducianism (followed by Tertullian, Luther, and I believe the
                  > Eastern church), for example (as interpreted by Tertullian), where
                  > the soul as well as the body come directly from the human parents
                  > (soul substance transmitted through corporeal semen). In the
                  latter
                  > case, even though "God" originally breathed the breath of life
                  into
                  > Adam, the propagation of a "sinful" nature due to transmission of
                  a
                  > nonmaterial nature (soul) by secondary means, material hosts (the
                  > parents and all their genes, etc.), would tend to support their
                  view
                  > of man's basically tainted, depraved nature even better than
                  > creationism in which every soul is immediately created out of
                  nothing
                  > by "God." Please correct me if my understanding is not accurate
                  here.
                  >
                  > The Cathar reassembling of divided or exiled "particles" into an
                  > original "Great Soul" seems to resemble a bit more of a gnostic
                  theme
                  > of reintegration into an original androgyny or unity.
                  >
                  >
                  > Cari

                  This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                  Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the reason
                  for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel" could
                  not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve
                • blackfire_al
                  ... reason ... Okay, just some questions. Where did this vessel come from? Who created it? The same God that over-filled it thereby breaking it? Doesn t
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 8, 2003
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                    > This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                    > Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the
                    reason
                    > for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel" could
                    > not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve

                    Okay, just some questions. Where did this "vessel" come from? Who
                    created it? The same 'God' that over-filled it thereby breaking it?
                    Doesn't this put some onus or culpability upon this self-same God as
                    to what became a tragic accident? And isn't there this tendencey
                    to "blame the victim"; God can't be wrong so it must be us, we are
                    guilty, we are evil, we have original sin yadda yadda. Sorry, felt
                    like playing devil's advocate. (watching nervously over-head for
                    lightening bolts)

                    Blackfire
                  • Steve Wenninger
                    ... could ... Who ... it? ... as ... Dear Blackfire; I m afraid I can t answer for Isaac Luria. You will have to find his reincarnation and ask that person.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 8, 2003
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "blackfire_al"
                      <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                      > > This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                      > > Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the
                      > reason
                      > > for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel"
                      could
                      > > not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve
                      >
                      > Okay, just some questions. Where did this "vessel" come from?
                      Who
                      > created it? The same 'God' that over-filled it thereby breaking
                      it?
                      > Doesn't this put some onus or culpability upon this self-same God
                      as
                      > to what became a tragic accident? And isn't there this tendencey
                      > to "blame the victim"; God can't be wrong so it must be us, we are
                      > guilty, we are evil, we have original sin yadda yadda. Sorry, felt
                      > like playing devil's advocate. (watching nervously over-head for
                      > lightening bolts)
                      >
                      > Blackfire

                      Dear Blackfire; I'm afraid I can't answer for Isaac Luria. You will
                      have to find his reincarnation and ask that person. [lol] However,
                      if you want my opinion, I think that God is playing hide-and-seek
                      with Him/Herself, and that polar contrariety is part of the rules of
                      the game. Peace, Steve
                    • Steve Wenninger
                      ... could ... Who ... it? ... as ... Dear Blackfire; I m afraid I can t answer for Isaac Luria. You will have to find his reincarnation and ask that person.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 8, 2003
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                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "blackfire_al"
                        <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                        > > This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                        > > Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the
                        > reason
                        > > for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel"
                        could
                        > > not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve
                        >
                        > Okay, just some questions. Where did this "vessel" come from?
                        Who
                        > created it? The same 'God' that over-filled it thereby breaking
                        it?
                        > Doesn't this put some onus or culpability upon this self-same God
                        as
                        > to what became a tragic accident? And isn't there this tendencey
                        > to "blame the victim"; God can't be wrong so it must be us, we are
                        > guilty, we are evil, we have original sin yadda yadda. Sorry, felt
                        > like playing devil's advocate. (watching nervously over-head for
                        > lightening bolts)
                        >
                        > Blackfire

                        Dear Blackfire; I'm afraid I can't answer for Isaac Luria. You will
                        have to find his reincarnation and ask that person. [lol] However,
                        if you want my opinion, I think that God is playing hide-and-seek
                        with Him/Herself, and that polar contrariety is part of the rules of
                        the game. Peace, Steve
                      • Wayne
                        The Vessel is the Holy Grail.---- O When God Breathed into Man s nostrils, it was the Way, the Nature, the Spiritual Reality of First Cause that became a
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 10, 2003
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                          The Vessel is the Holy Grail.---->O

                          When God Breathed into Man's nostrils, it was the Way, the Nature,
                          the Spiritual Reality of First Cause that became a Living Soul, a
                          Manifest Physical Reality.

                          The Reality of First Cause alive in the Flesh, the Boundlessness of
                          the Mystical Female, Eve, Man's Non-Physical, Non-Material, Spiritual
                          Side, Femininity, Man's Immortal Soul.

                          Eve, Femininity is a Free Spirit that can not be bound by the
                          Material World of Reality, a Physical Vessel.



                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "blackfire_al"
                          <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                          > > This also is reminiscent of the myth of Adam Kadmon in the
                          > > Lurianic Kabbalah. However, in the system of Isaac Luria, the
                          > reason
                          > > for the shattering of the primal unity was that the "vessel"
                          could
                          > > not contain the Light that was poured into it by God. -Steve
                          >
                          > Okay, just some questions. Where did this "vessel" come from? Who
                          > created it? The same 'God' that over-filled it thereby breaking
                          it?
                          > Doesn't this put some onus or culpability upon this self-same God
                          as
                          > to what became a tragic accident? And isn't there this tendencey
                          > to "blame the victim"; God can't be wrong so it must be us, we are
                          > guilty, we are evil, we have original sin yadda yadda. Sorry, felt
                          > like playing devil's advocate. (watching nervously over-head for
                          > lightening bolts)
                          >
                          > Blackfire
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