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Re: Nag Hammadi codexes

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  • lady_caritas
    ... Hello, Ernst. If I may butt in, too... I think Gerry was offering definitions for what developed into a more dogmatic, pistic orthodox Christianity,
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 3, 2003
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Hi sorry to butt in but...
      >
      > > Pistic Christian:
      > >
      > > Sin = transgression; we're born with it, and can't escape it
      > without someone else dying for us.
      > >
      > > Creator = Loving, Supreme God, paradoxically also a jealous
      > and selective god, but who cares-at least WE're saved if we but
      > believe in Him.
      > >
      >
      > I don't think this is good definition.
      >
      > For "sin" if you say we are born with it it means you implied the
      > "original sin" which didn't come into exsitance until Augestine of
      > Hippo. As you know Augestine went against the thinking of norm
      > in the church on many issues but some how this theology took
      > over the church.
      >
      > For "creator" it becomes the problem if you take into account
      > Marcion. So is Marcion "Gnostic" or "Pistic"?



      Hello, Ernst. If I may butt in, too...

      I think Gerry was offering definitions for what developed into a more
      dogmatic, pistic "orthodox" Christianity, which had been part of the
      discussion of this particular thread. The concept of original sin
      has been around for a long time and I wouldn't view Marcion as
      orthodox.

      Perhaps you'd like to offer a more general definition for "pistic"
      Christianity that would consider the points you brought up?

      Cari
    • lady_caritas
      ... particular ... thought ... kind ... tried ... Ah, so soon they forget... LOL Ernst, I think she was referring to me with an extra r and e . Cari P. S.
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 3, 2003
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, incognito_lightbringer <
        > no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > > PS It really is a good idea to reread the posts in this
        particular
        > > thread in one go. I've just did that specifically because Carrie
        > > asked me a question and I was trying to recreate the train of
        thought
        > > and discussion to answer her, and noticed a few things I didn't
        > > address or didn't respond to correctly, and am working on some
        kind
        > > of reply to you and Carrie. But the board had been down when I
        tried
        > > to access it this weekend it's taking awhile.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > Who's the heck is Carrie?



        Ah, so soon they forget... LOL

        Ernst, I think she was referring to me with an extra "r" and "e".


        Cari

        P. S. Apologies if this is posted twice. I think Yahoo ate up my
        first attempt.
      • pessy@chez.com
        ... The original sin is a vulgarised version of the Gnosticistic topic of the fall of the soul into matter. Augustinus plaggiated it from Manicheus. Long
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 3, 2003
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          ernststrohregenmantelrad writes:
          > For "sin" if you say we are born with it it means you implied the
          > "original sin" which didn't come into exsitance until Augestine of
          > Hippo.

          The original sin is a vulgarised version of the Gnosticistic topic
          of the fall of the soul into matter.
          Augustinus plaggiated it from Manicheus.
          Long before the Manicheans it was Julius Cassianus
          according to the Stromata of Clem. Al. who knew that
          in paradise man existed not in the flesh,
          but psychically or noetically.
          By the affinity to the matter the soul becomes femalish and subject
          to corruption and perversion. By understanding and encratism
          the corruption is reversed.

          Klaus Schilling
        • Mike Leavitt
          Hello lady_caritas ... Also, neither the Baptists (except perhaps for Faldwell), nor the Quakers nor the Unitarians believe in original sin. It is not
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 3, 2003
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            Hello lady_caritas

            On 03-Apr-03, you wrote:

            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >> Hi sorry to butt in but...
            >>
            >>> Pistic Christian:
            >>>
            >>> Sin = transgression; we're born with it, and can't escape it
            >> without someone else dying for us.
            >>>
            >>> Creator = Loving, Supreme God, paradoxically also a jealous
            >> and selective god, but who cares-at least WE're saved if we but
            >> believe in Him.
            >>>
            >>
            >> I don't think this is good definition.
            >>
            >> For "sin" if you say we are born with it it means you implied the
            >> "original sin" which didn't come into exsitance until Augestine of
            >> Hippo. As you know Augestine went against the thinking of norm
            >> in the church on many issues but some how this theology took
            >> over the church.
            >>
            >> For "creator" it becomes the problem if you take into account
            >> Marcion. So is Marcion "Gnostic" or "Pistic"?
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello, Ernst. If I may butt in, too...
            >
            > I think Gerry was offering definitions for what developed into a
            > more dogmatic, pistic "orthodox" Christianity, which had been part
            > of the discussion of this particular thread. The concept of original
            > sin has been around for a long time and I wouldn't view Marcion as
            > orthodox.
            >
            > Perhaps you'd like to offer a more general definition for "pistic"
            > Christianity that would consider the points you brought up?
            >
            > Cari

            Also, neither the Baptists (except perhaps for Faldwell), nor the
            Quakers nor the Unitarians believe in original sin. It is not
            automatically a belief of Pistic Christians. The Baptists, at least
            prove that.

            Regards
            --
            Mike Leavitt ac998@...
          • lady_caritas
            ... the ... of ... original ... for pistic ... Quite so, Mike! :-) Considering to whom Gerry was writing, I think it s possible he had Roman Catholicism in
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 4, 2003
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
              > Hello lady_caritas
              >
              > On 03-Apr-03, you wrote:
              >
              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
              > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > >> Hi sorry to butt in but...
              > >>
              > >>> Pistic Christian:
              > >>>
              > >>> Sin = transgression; we're born with it, and can't escape it
              > >> without someone else dying for us.
              > >>>
              > >>> Creator = Loving, Supreme God, paradoxically also a jealous
              > >> and selective god, but who cares-at least WE're saved if we but
              > >> believe in Him.
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >> I don't think this is good definition.
              > >>
              > >> For "sin" if you say we are born with it it means you implied
              the
              > >> "original sin" which didn't come into exsitance until Augestine
              of
              > >> Hippo. As you know Augestine went against the thinking of norm
              > >> in the church on many issues but some how this theology took
              > >> over the church.
              > >>
              > >> For "creator" it becomes the problem if you take into account
              > >> Marcion. So is Marcion "Gnostic" or "Pistic"?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello, Ernst. If I may butt in, too...
              > >
              > > I think Gerry was offering definitions for what developed into a
              > > more dogmatic, pistic "orthodox" Christianity, which had been part
              > > of the discussion of this particular thread. The concept of
              original
              > > sin has been around for a long time and I wouldn't view Marcion as
              > > orthodox.
              > >
              > > Perhaps you'd like to offer a more general definition
              for "pistic"
              > > Christianity that would consider the points you brought up?
              > >
              > > Cari
              >
              > Also, neither the Baptists (except perhaps for Faldwell), nor the
              > Quakers nor the Unitarians believe in original sin. It is not
              > automatically a belief of Pistic Christians. The Baptists, at least
              > prove that.
              >
              > Regards
              > --
              > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...



              Quite so, Mike! :-)

              Considering to whom Gerry was writing, I think it's possible he had
              Roman Catholicism in mind, a religion well known to Incognita, and
              perhaps he had no intention of offering this as a technical
              definition, but one to which Incognita could relate. He might have
              been oversimplifying to show conceptual differences between Gnostic
              and mainstream usage of terms. Just a guess.

              Cari
            • Gerry
              ... A VERY good guess, I might add, but it was a strategy that nonetheless backfired. Given that the thread had already dragged on to inordinate length, and
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 4, 2003
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Quite so, Mike! :-)
                >
                > Considering to whom Gerry was writing, I think it's possible he had
                > Roman Catholicism in mind, a religion well known to Incognita, and
                > perhaps he had no intention of offering this as a technical
                > definition, but one to which Incognita could relate. He might have
                > been oversimplifying to show conceptual differences between Gnostic
                > and mainstream usage of terms. Just a guess.
                >
                > Cari



                A VERY good guess, I might add, but it was a strategy that
                nonetheless backfired. Given that the thread had already dragged on
                to inordinate length, and probably shouldn't have needed
                clarification at a Gnostic site in the first place, I really
                shouldn't be surprised that my comments should be even further
                misinterpreted.

                Perhaps next time I'll use even more sarcasm than I did to better
                demonstrate that such a contrast is NOT a technical definition . . .
                but I figured I had worn out my "bloody savior" motif already. It
                would seem that whether my posts are too dry, or super saturated,
                there's no pleasing everyone.

                Gerry
              • ernststrohregenmantelrad
                ... more ... the ... thank you for butting in. We can now do the bumps. I see that this all got started from a post by New Age pseudo- gnostic wannabee again
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 4, 2003
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <
                  no_reply@y...> wrote:

                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello, Ernst. If I may butt in, too...
                  >
                  > I think Gerry was offering definitions for what developed into a
                  more
                  > dogmatic, pistic "orthodox" Christianity, which had been part of
                  the
                  > discussion of this particular thread.

                  thank you for butting in. We can now do the bumps.

                  I see that this all got started from a post by New Age pseudo-
                  gnostic wannabee again confusing his new age "evolution of
                  conscieous" crap as a pale rendering of Gnosticism. And then
                  that turned into bickering on the definition of "pistis" (BTW,
                  looking back at posts, I felt like reading Irenaeus because the
                  posts were erased yet some quotes were cited to refute.)

                  Anyway, as stated in posts "Gnostic" Christians have varients
                  and so one must also realize that so called "pistic" Christians
                  have varients too. (BTW, I hate using that term for this particular
                  group, more on that later) Including those of so called dogmatic,
                  pistic, orthodox etc... (and you can put as many adjective as you
                  want it won't make difference). I understand that what he meant
                  by the term "pistic" or "orthodox" but my point here is his
                  definition of "sin" for supposed "orthodox". As I stated it is only
                  after Augestine that the original sin concept was adoptied by the
                  "orthodox" church so "Sin = transgression; we're born with it,
                  and can't escape it without someone else dying for us." needs
                  revision. Also the statement, "Sin = ignorance of our divine origin;
                  a state akin to drunkenness from which we can be made sober."
                  is much to be of misunderstanding. I don't know where but I think
                  we got somewhere stuck in our heads that for Gnostics sin=
                  ignorence. Maybe it was from the TV serie "Gnostics" or from
                  Pagels' book "Gnostic Gospels". Well, I look back at the Pagels
                  book and it doesn't say sin=ingorence. What it says is that for
                  orthodox Christians suffering is the result of sin but for Gnostics
                  suffering is the result of ignorence. (p.148-150) Then as such
                  word "sin" is defined same for orthodox and Gnostics. For "sin'
                  means as Pagels states on page 148-149, "the New Testement
                  term for sin, _hamartia_, comes from the sport of archery;
                  literally, it means "missing the mark" So the original meaning of
                  "hamartia" didn't necessary mean "transgresion" per se.




                  The concept of original sin
                  > has been around for a long time and I wouldn't view Marcion as
                  > orthodox.

                  I hope that sentense has two ideas not one jointed ideas.
                  If you consider since around the 4th century it is long time;
                  however, that is not the beginning of so called Chrsitianity
                  (although Augestine imo did begin something new) Original sin,
                  predestination are all foreign to Christianity til Augestine.

                  Marcion is not orthodox yet some would say he isn't Gnostics
                  either yet he has the cosmology of Gnostics. yet in actuallity his
                  soteriology is pistic. So what's is his case? That was my
                  question.

                  >
                  > Perhaps you'd like to offer a more general definition for "pistic"
                  > Christianity that would consider the points you brought up?
                  >
                  > Cari


                  Now to why I don't like the term "pistic" for orthodox. Actually I
                  don't like the term orthodox either as it implies that those
                  Christians saw themselves as the "right, straight" path and
                  others as not. The term is so condisending to others and self
                  rightiousness and arrogant.. Anyway, for all we could know,
                  Gnostics might call themselves as orthodox. They indeed
                  consider their path as the right path. Well, Gerry states there are
                  different difinition for "orthodox"

                  >>>Even within the context of our discussions, "orthodox" can
                  have a generic meaning (straight- or right-thinking), or a specific
                  one (such as referring to the conventional, Pistic religion as
                  characterized by its dogma).<<< #7390

                  Actually more specific one is Orthodox as in Eastern Orthodox.
                  But for one to be called orthodox I think there needs to be more
                  then "pistic" to be one. So in the definition Gerry includes
                  "conventional" so what's that entail? Surely for Christians, it must
                  included Christology and perhaps etchatology and yes
                  characterized by dogma (but then everyone had dogma). But
                  then who will define the boundry?

                  I don't like the term pistic Christians because of the same
                  reason for the word Gnosticism. There was no movement or
                  group that identified each other as "pistic". And as I stated there
                  was no uniform "pistic" theology just as there was no uniform
                  "Gnostic" theology. It is a misnormer to state that historically
                  there were two kinds of Christians, pistic and gnostic, like one
                  internet web sites falsely speading as the matter of fact.
                • ernststrohregenmantelrad
                  ... ernststrohregenmantelrad ...
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 4, 2003
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <
                    no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com,
                    ernststrohregenmantelrad
                    > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, incognito_lightbringer
                    <
                    > > no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > PS It really is a good idea to reread the posts in this
                    > particular
                    > > > thread in one go. I've just did that specifically because
                    Carrie
                    > > > asked me a question and I was trying to recreate the train
                    of
                    > thought
                    > > > and discussion to answer her, and noticed a few things I
                    didn't
                    > > > address or didn't respond to correctly, and am working on
                    some
                    > kind
                    > > > of reply to you and Carrie. But the board had been down
                    when I
                    > tried
                    > > > to access it this weekend it's taking awhile.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Who's the heck is Carrie?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Ah, so soon they forget... LOL
                    >
                    > Ernst, I think she was referring to me with an extra "r" and "e".
                    >
                    >
                    > Cari
                    >
                    > P. S. Apologies if this is posted twice. I think Yahoo ate up my
                    > first attempt.

                    then someone is indeed disfiguering words!
                  • Gerry
                    ... gnostic wannabee again confusing his new age evolution of conscieous crap as a pale rendering of Gnosticism. And then that turned into bickering on the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 5, 2003
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >>I see that this all got started from a post by New Age pseudo-
                      gnostic wannabee again confusing his new age "evolution of
                      conscieous" crap as a pale rendering of Gnosticism. And then
                      that turned into bickering on the definition of "pistis" (BTW,
                      looking back at posts, I felt like reading Irenaeus because the
                      posts were erased yet some quotes were cited to refute.)<<


                      The only posts that were deleted had no purpose here. They were
                      spam. There's actually another recent one I'm considering
                      eliminating from the archives, but from now on, I'll be sure to
                      forward all spam directly to your mailbox prior to deletion so you
                      can lord over it as you please.


                      >>Anyway, as stated in posts "Gnostic" Christians have varients
                      and so one must also realize that so called "pistic" Christians
                      have varients too. (BTW, I hate using that term for this particular
                      group, more on that later) Including those of so called dogmatic,
                      pistic, orthodox etc... (and you can put as many adjective as you
                      want it won't make difference). I understand that what he meant
                      by the term "pistic" or "orthodox" but my point here is his
                      definition of "sin" for supposed "orthodox". As I stated it is only
                      after Augestine that the original sin concept was adoptied by the
                      "orthodox" church so "Sin = transgression; we're born with it,
                      and can't escape it without someone else dying for us." needs
                      revision. Also the statement, "Sin = ignorance of our divine origin;
                      a state akin to drunkenness from which we can be made sober."
                      is much to be of misunderstanding. I don't know where but I think
                      we got somewhere stuck in our heads that for Gnostics sin=
                      ignorence. Maybe it was from the TV serie "Gnostics" or from
                      Pagels' book "Gnostic Gospels". Well, I look back at the Pagels
                      book and it doesn't say sin=ingorence. What it says is that for
                      orthodox Christians suffering is the result of sin but for Gnostics
                      suffering is the result of ignorence. (p.148-150) Then as such
                      word "sin" is defined same for orthodox and Gnostics. For "sin'
                      means as Pagels states on page 148-149, "the New Testement
                      term for sin, _hamartia_, comes from the sport of archery;
                      literally, it means "missing the mark" So the original meaning of
                      "hamartia" didn't necessary mean "transgresion" per se.<<


                      Thank you for your "clarification," but are you still somehow unaware
                      that my conceptual distinction was never intended to be a technical
                      definition, even after two people have pointed that out? BTW, if we
                      stick to your literalist interpretation of "sin," then the only valid
                      context we can allow for its discussion is on the field while taking
                      aim at a bull's-eye. Furthermore, if you think I pulled the
                      understanding of "sin" as "ignorance" out of a hat, you're again
                      mistaken.


                      >>I don't like the term pistic Christians because of the same
                      reason for the word Gnosticism. There was no movement or
                      group that identified each other as "pistic". And as I stated there
                      was no uniform "pistic" theology just as there was no uniform
                      "Gnostic" theology. It is a misnormer to state that historically
                      there were two kinds of Christians, pistic and gnostic, like one
                      internet web sites falsely speading as the matter of fact.<<


                      If you don't like the term, Ernst, you're free to leave anytime.
                      There's really no point in you remaining to discuss Gnosticism if you
                      truly see no difference between those groups and the rest of
                      Christianity. On the other hand, if you can remove your head from
                      your definitions long enough to realize that certain generalizations
                      can indeed be recognized, then the whole point of having
                      a "Gnosticism" category at Yahoo might just be validated.

                      Gerry
                    • Gerry
                      ... Yes, I d say that SOMEONE is, indeed. Don t worry, though . . . your title is far from being challenged. Gerry
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 5, 2003
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                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
                        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        >>then someone is indeed disfiguering words!<< [sic]



                        Yes, I'd say that SOMEONE is, indeed.

                        Don't worry, though . . . your title is far from being challenged.

                        Gerry
                      • incognito_lightbringer
                        Ernst I don t like the term pistic Christians because of the same reason for the word Gnosticism. There was no movement or group that identified each other
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 5, 2003
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                          Ernst<<>>I don't like the term pistic Christians because of the same
                          reason for the word Gnosticism. There was no movement or
                          group that identified each other as "pistic". And as I stated there
                          was no uniform "pistic" theology just as there was no uniform
                          "Gnostic" theology. It is a misnormer to state that historically
                          there were two kinds of Christians, pistic and gnostic, like one
                          internet web sites falsely speading as the matter of fact.<<


                          Gerry<<If you don't like the term, Ernst, you're free to leave
                          anytime.
                          There's really no point in you remaining to discuss Gnosticism if you
                          truly see no difference between those groups and the rest of
                          Christianity>>


                          I agree with Ernst. This whole pistic gnostic heterodox orthodox
                          thread made me understand what exactly he's trying to say now. No
                          matter what neat box you try to fit things into you can still find
                          examples that contradict it. That's why, Gerry, I asked you what is
                          meant by heterodox versus orthodox when applied to gnosticism in post
                          7405.

                          Because then I could claim that those labeled Orthodox or Pistics
                          have various subgroups which have differences in texts and myth, some
                          subtle, others more pronounced, and that as a whole they are
                          heterodox. (thank you Ernst!).

                          If heterodox applies to beliefs of members within the specific
                          gnostic group, in that the group allowed a wide difference in
                          personal interpretation, that's another matter. But I see common
                          myths, common rituals, common teachings within each group.
                          You agree by your "if you see no difference". And it's also implied
                          by the overall tone of response here whenever someone strays off the
                          historical gnostic beaten path into personal interpretation that
                          isn't based on historical gnosticism.

                          You wrote <<I sought to point out that as black is not white, neither
                          might a mainstream definition be appropriately applied in a Gnostic
                          context.>> What does that mean? That any definition "they" used
                          automatically can't be what "we" use? I don't think you believe that,
                          but that's what the statement implies. And it may the case in some
                          points, it may also not be the case in others. What importance a
                          definition is attributed to *any religious system*, how it's defined
                          by that system, is examined by examining the specific religion
                          itself. That is, I believe, critical analysis. Not by examination of
                          another group and defining based on what they think
                          the "enemy" is. If that's not the case, then why don't we start
                          comparing Gnosticism to Hinduism?

                          The entire discussion should not have been about bickering. It should
                          have been about how do historical gnostic groups define faith based
                          on the evidence they left and deductions *based on that evidence*.
                          Has that been done in any depth? A claim was made here that faith was
                          viewed as negative by gnostics. I asked for evidence, where is it? My
                          reading of texts is that faith was high up in the hierarchy
                          importance to gnostics. Why not examine the written material and use
                          that to agree or disagree?

                          If "suposedly different historical definitions are not very
                          different at all, they are variations on a single theme." then what
                          is that definition and context for faith in historical gnosticism,
                          based on the evidence they left? Also written, "this club
                          is about historical Gnostic movements and that is non-negotiable".
                          Now we have a suggestion that the word faith be replaced by another
                          word, whereas historical gnostics did use it, and everyone's offering
                          a different definition "important to me". That indicates that there
                          *is* confusion on this point. And whereas personal interpretation is
                          important in gnosticism, IMHO, you can't have your cake and eat it
                          too. You can't claim that there's some objective analysis going on of
                          historical gnosticism, and then fall back into personal definition
                          with cries of heterodox whenever the literature doesn't agree with
                          personal view. Gnosticism is not "anyone's "personal path" of
                          psychological "spirituality", another comment posted here.

                          Cari asked me why, if I didn't believe in contrasting gnostics to
                          pistics to define aspects of gnosticism, then why did I do that? I
                          was actually shocked because I had no intention of doing that, and
                          realized I fell into it. The simple answer was that I was asked to
                          and the question intrigued me. I now realize it was a HUGE mistake
                          and why. I should have never diverted into that tangent. I'm still
                          holding to, now more than ever, that you do not define gnostic terms
                          as some kind of polar opposite to pistics, or in contrast to any
                          other religion. You define it based on itself.

                          Here's another irony. Why is the attempt to analyze faith is met with
                          suspicion? Is it a dirty word? The pistics are immediately dragged up
                          for comparison (see, lookee here what faith results in). The
                          term "critical reasoning" is bandied about as if it's contrary to
                          faith or mysticism. Mysticism is now not part of gnosis. No matter
                          that gnosticism is a _religion_ and not just merely a philosophy and
                          those elements are blatantly there in the literature. Pursuit of a
                          definition it is met with implied accusations of an orthodox
                          approach, and "gnostics aren't orthodox". Eventually, dead martyrs
                          are dug up, as I knew they'd be, as if to say "see what happens"!
                          What this has to do with pistics I don't know because had
                          the "faithful" been true to their own dogmatic doctrines than there
                          wouldn't have been any slaughter, instead much giving away of coats
                          and shirts, turning of cheeks, and loving the enemy, and avoidance of
                          judgement on others.
                          Conversely, "historical definitions are the important ones for you to
                          know in order to be a part of conversation here" is also brought up
                          the minute someone strays into new age lala land. So which is it?

                          So my "intent" has been questioned, and suspicions of orthodox
                          influence, or rather "baggage", for "zealously defending faith".
                          Now it's what could possibly be my religious influence. (if you're
                          getting p'ed at this too bad, you're not half as mad as I was when I
                          read all this, and you have no idea how I've restrained myself).
                          Snide accusations of past posting history, while at the
                          same time contradictorily stating that bringing up past posts is a no
                          no in debate. Now you write "thread had already dragged on to
                          inordinate length, and probably shouldn't have needed clarification
                          at a Gnostic site in the first place". Thanks a lot, here I thought
                          critical analysis was the point. Except nothings clear as far as the
                          posts go, everyone's falling back is individual interpretation, and
                          what word are we substituting for faith. Oh by the way, I've seen FAR
                          longer threads on this board.
                          This is the most depressing disillusioning experience because it's
                          exactly the kind of thing I experienced in my "orthodox" influence. I
                          know it when I see it.






                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
                          > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >>I see that this all got started from a post by New Age pseudo-
                          > gnostic wannabee again confusing his new age "evolution of
                          > conscieous" crap as a pale rendering of Gnosticism. And then
                          > that turned into bickering on the definition of "pistis" (BTW,
                          > looking back at posts, I felt like reading Irenaeus because the
                          > posts were erased yet some quotes were cited to refute.)<<
                          >
                          >
                          > The only posts that were deleted had no purpose here. They were
                          > spam. There's actually another recent one I'm considering
                          > eliminating from the archives, but from now on, I'll be sure to
                          > forward all spam directly to your mailbox prior to deletion so you
                          > can lord over it as you please.
                          >
                          >
                          > >>Anyway, as stated in posts "Gnostic" Christians have varients
                          > and so one must also realize that so called "pistic" Christians
                          > have varients too. (BTW, I hate using that term for this particular
                          > group, more on that later) Including those of so called dogmatic,
                          > pistic, orthodox etc... (and you can put as many adjective as you
                          > want it won't make difference). I understand that what he meant
                          > by the term "pistic" or "orthodox" but my point here is his
                          > definition of "sin" for supposed "orthodox". As I stated it is only
                          > after Augestine that the original sin concept was adoptied by the
                          > "orthodox" church so "Sin = transgression; we're born with it,
                          > and can't escape it without someone else dying for us." needs
                          > revision. Also the statement, "Sin = ignorance of our divine
                          origin;
                          > a state akin to drunkenness from which we can be made sober."
                          > is much to be of misunderstanding. I don't know where but I think
                          > we got somewhere stuck in our heads that for Gnostics sin=
                          > ignorence. Maybe it was from the TV serie "Gnostics" or from
                          > Pagels' book "Gnostic Gospels". Well, I look back at the Pagels
                          > book and it doesn't say sin=ingorence. What it says is that for
                          > orthodox Christians suffering is the result of sin but for Gnostics
                          > suffering is the result of ignorence. (p.148-150) Then as such
                          > word "sin" is defined same for orthodox and Gnostics. For "sin'
                          > means as Pagels states on page 148-149, "the New Testement
                          > term for sin, _hamartia_, comes from the sport of archery;
                          > literally, it means "missing the mark" So the original meaning of
                          > "hamartia" didn't necessary mean "transgresion" per se.<<
                          >
                          >
                          > Thank you for your "clarification," but are you still somehow
                          unaware
                          > that my conceptual distinction was never intended to be a technical
                          > definition, even after two people have pointed that out? BTW, if
                          we
                          > stick to your literalist interpretation of "sin," then the only
                          valid
                          > context we can allow for its discussion is on the field while
                          taking
                          > aim at a bull's-eye. Furthermore, if you think I pulled the
                          > understanding of "sin" as "ignorance" out of a hat, you're again
                          > mistaken.
                          >
                          >
                          > >>I don't like the term pistic Christians because of the same
                          > reason for the word Gnosticism. There was no movement or
                          > group that identified each other as "pistic". And as I stated there
                          > was no uniform "pistic" theology just as there was no uniform
                          > "Gnostic" theology. It is a misnormer to state that historically
                          > there were two kinds of Christians, pistic and gnostic, like one
                          > internet web sites falsely speading as the matter of fact.<<
                          >
                          >
                          > If you don't like the term, Ernst, you're free to leave anytime.
                          > There's really no point in you remaining to discuss Gnosticism if
                          you
                          > truly see no difference between those groups and the rest of
                          > Christianity. On the other hand, if you can remove your head from
                          > your definitions long enough to realize that certain
                          generalizations
                          > can indeed be recognized, then the whole point of having
                          > a "Gnosticism" category at Yahoo might just be validated.
                          >
                          > Gerry
                        • Mike Leavitt
                          Hello ernststrohregenmantelrad On 04-Apr-03, you wrote: . For sin means as Pagels states on ... THIS POINT NEEDS EMPHASIZING, THIS IS THE TRUE MEANING OF
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 5, 2003
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                            Hello ernststrohregenmantelrad

                            On 04-Apr-03, you wrote:
                            . For "sin' means as Pagels states on
                            > page 148-149, "the New Testement term for sin, _hamartia_, comes
                            > from the sport of archery; literally, it means "missing the mark" So
                            > the original meaning of "hamartia" didn't necessary mean
                            > "transgresion" per se.

                            THIS POINT NEEDS EMPHASIZING, THIS IS THE TRUE MEANING OF SIN.

                            > I don't like the term pistic Christians because of the same
                            > reason for the word Gnosticism. There was no movement or
                            > group that identified each other as "pistic". And as I stated there
                            > was no uniform "pistic" theology just as there was no uniform
                            > "Gnostic" theology. It is a misnormer to state that historically
                            > there were two kinds of Christians, pistic and gnostic, like one
                            > internet web sites falsely speading as the matter of fact.

                            Yes, Marcion comes to mind, a little bit of each. :-) Origin and
                            Clement too, for that matter.

                            Regards
                            --
                            Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                          • Mike Leavitt
                            Hello incognito_lightbringer ... Just to clarify, I agree with your point about the role of faith in Gnosticism, Pistis is ahead of Sophia in the title after
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 5, 2003
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                              Hello incognito_lightbringer

                              On 05-Apr-03, you wrote:

                              > So my "intent" has been questioned, and suspicions of orthodox
                              > influence, or rather "baggage", for "zealously defending faith". Now
                              > it's what could possibly be my religious influence. (if you're
                              > getting p'ed at this too bad, you're not half as mad as I was when I
                              > read all this, and you have no idea how I've restrained myself).
                              > Snide accusations of past posting history, while at the same time
                              > contradictorily stating that bringing up past posts is a no no in
                              > debate. Now you write "thread had already dragged on to inordinate
                              > length, and probably shouldn't have needed clarification at a
                              > Gnostic site in the first place". Thanks a lot, here I thought
                              > critical analysis was the point. Except nothings clear as far as the
                              > posts go, everyone's falling back is individual interpretation, and
                              > what word are we substituting for faith. Oh by the way, I've seen
                              > FAR longer threads on this board. This is the most depressing
                              > disillusioning experience because it's exactly the kind of thing I
                              > experienced in my "orthodox" influence. I know it when I see it.

                              Just to clarify, I agree with your point about the role of faith in
                              Gnosticism, Pistis is ahead of Sophia in the title after all. Also I
                              have enjoyed your posts, and learned from them. I guess I'm an old
                              jaded gnostic, as nothing in this thread has upset me, only
                              enlightened me as different points of view were put forth. It is, of
                              course, the best form to leave out personal references, but
                              cultivating a thick skin helps as it will happen. :-)

                              Regards
                              --
                              Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                            • incognito_lightbringer
                              Thanks Mike This is having a thick skin, for me LOL :O If there s debate among scholars defining gnosis and gnosticism, I don t suppose faith should have been
                              Message 14 of 28 , Apr 6, 2003
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                                Thanks Mike
                                This is having a thick skin, for me LOL :O
                                If there's debate among scholars defining gnosis and gnosticism, I
                                don't suppose faith should have been any different.
                                And it's not so much faith as it is taking the mystical or
                                transcendent out of gnosis and gnosticism that bothered me; takes all
                                the flavor out of it, like salt without food (to quote from my
                                orthodox upbringing). And the transcendent is the starting point in
                                gnostic texts that describe the Father and the series of emanations.
                                I don't see how that can be broached without some element of faith
                                working.

                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                > Hello incognito_lightbringer
                                >
                                > On 05-Apr-03, you wrote:
                                >
                                > > So my "intent" has been questioned, and suspicions of orthodox
                                > > influence, or rather "baggage", for "zealously defending faith".
                                Now
                                > > it's what could possibly be my religious influence. (if you're
                                > > getting p'ed at this too bad, you're not half as mad as I was
                                when I
                                > > read all this, and you have no idea how I've restrained myself).
                                > > Snide accusations of past posting history, while at the same time
                                > > contradictorily stating that bringing up past posts is a no no in
                                > > debate. Now you write "thread had already dragged on to inordinate
                                > > length, and probably shouldn't have needed clarification at a
                                > > Gnostic site in the first place". Thanks a lot, here I thought
                                > > critical analysis was the point. Except nothings clear as far as
                                the
                                > > posts go, everyone's falling back is individual interpretation,
                                and
                                > > what word are we substituting for faith. Oh by the way, I've seen
                                > > FAR longer threads on this board. This is the most depressing
                                > > disillusioning experience because it's exactly the kind of thing I
                                > > experienced in my "orthodox" influence. I know it when I see it.
                                >
                                > Just to clarify, I agree with your point about the role of faith in
                                > Gnosticism, Pistis is ahead of Sophia in the title after all. Also
                                I
                                > have enjoyed your posts, and learned from them. I guess I'm an old
                                > jaded gnostic, as nothing in this thread has upset me, only
                                > enlightened me as different points of view were put forth. It is,
                                of
                                > course, the best form to leave out personal references, but
                                > cultivating a thick skin helps as it will happen. :-)
                                >
                                > Regards
                                > --
                                > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                              • Gerry
                                ... all ... emanations. ... Micren, before I even come close to having the time required in a day to address your previous questions and allegations of the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Apr 6, 2003
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                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, incognito_lightbringer
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > Thanks Mike
                                  > This is having a thick skin, for me LOL :O
                                  > If there's debate among scholars defining gnosis and gnosticism, I
                                  > don't suppose faith should have been any different.
                                  > And it's not so much faith as it is taking the mystical or
                                  > transcendent out of gnosis and gnosticism that bothered me; takes
                                  all
                                  > the flavor out of it, like salt without food (to quote from my
                                  > orthodox upbringing). And the transcendent is the starting point in
                                  > gnostic texts that describe the Father and the series of
                                  emanations.
                                  > I don't see how that can be broached without some element of faith
                                  > working.
                                  >



                                  Micren, before I even come close to having the time required in a day
                                  to address your previous questions and allegations of the horrible
                                  mistreatment you've gotten here, I'd like to ask one simple question:

                                  You close that paragraph with the unmistakable implication that
                                  people are continuing to "piss" on Pistis——as if they genuinely felt
                                  that it had NO place in Gnosticism. I'm just really curious if you
                                  never noticed the repeated attempts by your "opponents" in
                                  this "debate" to inform you that such was never an issue in our eyes?

                                  From my standpoint, I have merely wanted to point out that there is a
                                  difference in application of the terms between a Gnostic setting and
                                  one of a conventional faith.

                                  Mike and Ernst are right about the etymological origin of "sin," a
                                  fact which was NOT disputed here. In fact, the same definition had
                                  been offered here before (probably on numerous occasions prior to the
                                  botched archive re-shuffling). Again, I love to see that we have
                                  another area of agreement, but the fact remains that the notion
                                  of "missing the mark" is different in the eyes of a purely Pistic
                                  individual than for a Gnostic.

                                  Gerry
                                • Gerry
                                  ... I ... of ... Mike, I have one question for you as well (just to see if we ve all been on the same page all along). Since this relates to a matter of a
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Apr 6, 2003
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                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Just to clarify, I agree with your point about the role of faith in
                                    > Gnosticism, Pistis is ahead of Sophia in the title after all. Also
                                    I
                                    > have enjoyed your posts, and learned from them. I guess I'm an old
                                    > jaded gnostic, as nothing in this thread has upset me, only
                                    > enlightened me as different points of view were put forth. It is,
                                    of
                                    > course, the best form to leave out personal references, but
                                    > cultivating a thick skin helps as it will happen. :-)
                                    >
                                    > Regards
                                    > --
                                    > Mike Leavitt ac998@l...



                                    Mike, I have one question for you as well (just to see if we've all
                                    been on the same page all along). Since this relates to a matter of
                                    a personal nature, you may choose to treat it as a rhetorical
                                    question, but I'll ask nonetheless:

                                    Realizing that you preside over a Gnostic church, I'm curious why you
                                    made that choice, rather than . . . say . . . a Methodist church?

                                    I'm hoping you won't tell me something like, "It's a shorter
                                    commute," although I wouldn't put it past you. LOL In spite of the
                                    dangers of "assuming" anything, I'd wager that there was "something"
                                    about the Gnostic viewpoint that resonated differently for you than
                                    within the mainstream.

                                    Again, this is the gist of the case I've tried to present here——that
                                    there IS a difference, otherwise, none of us would be at a Gnostic
                                    site, there would be no Gnosticism category, and any of us of a
                                    religious persuasion would be attending the VERY SAME Church since
                                    such terms as heterodox and orthodox have been defenestrated for
                                    utter lack of interest.

                                    Gerry
                                  • Mike Leavitt
                                    Hello incognito_lightbringer ... You haven t said anything there I disagree with either. Good points. Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Apr 6, 2003
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                                      Hello incognito_lightbringer

                                      On 06-Apr-03, you wrote:

                                      > Thanks Mike
                                      > This is having a thick skin, for me LOL :O If there's debate among
                                      > scholars defining gnosis and gnosticism, I don't suppose faith
                                      > should have been any different. And it's not so much faith as it is
                                      > taking the mystical or transcendent out of gnosis and gnosticism
                                      > that bothered me; takes all the flavor out of it, like salt without
                                      > food (to quote from my orthodox upbringing). And the transcendent is
                                      > the starting point in gnostic texts that describe the Father and the
                                      > series of emanations. I don't see how that can be broached without
                                      > some element of faith working.

                                      You haven't said anything there I disagree with either. Good points.

                                      Regards
                                      --
                                      Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                    • Mike Leavitt
                                      Hello Gerry ... I hate one word replies, but this calls for one, _absolutely_! Regards -- Mike Leavitt ac998@lafn.org
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Apr 6, 2003
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                                        Hello Gerry

                                        On 06-Apr-03, you wrote:

                                        > Mike and Ernst are right about the etymological origin of "sin," a
                                        > fact which was NOT disputed here. In fact, the same definition had
                                        > been offered here before (probably on numerous occasions prior to
                                        > the botched archive re-shuffling). Again, I love to see that we have
                                        > another area of agreement, but the fact remains that the notion of
                                        > "missing the mark" is different in the eyes of a purely Pistic
                                        > individual than for a Gnostic.

                                        I hate one word replies, but this calls for one, _absolutely_!

                                        Regards
                                        --
                                        Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                      • Mike Leavitt
                                        Hello Gerry ... Well Bishop Stephan presides over the church, I m just the senior priest by date of ordination (1975). Actually it is a longer commute. :-) Yes
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Apr 6, 2003
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                                          Hello Gerry

                                          On 06-Apr-03, you wrote:

                                          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leavitt <ac998@l...> wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> Just to clarify, I agree with your point about the role of faith in
                                          >> Gnosticism, Pistis is ahead of Sophia in the title after all. Also
                                          > I
                                          >> have enjoyed your posts, and learned from them. I guess I'm an old
                                          >> jaded gnostic, as nothing in this thread has upset me, only
                                          >> enlightened me as different points of view were put forth. It is,
                                          > of
                                          >> course, the best form to leave out personal references, but
                                          >> cultivating a thick skin helps as it will happen. :-)
                                          >>
                                          >> Regards
                                          >> --
                                          >> Mike Leavitt ac998@l...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Mike, I have one question for you as well (just to see if we've all
                                          > been on the same page all along). Since this relates to a matter of
                                          > a personal nature, you may choose to treat it as a rhetorical
                                          > question, but I'll ask nonetheless:
                                          >
                                          > Realizing that you preside over a Gnostic church, I'm curious why
                                          > you made that choice, rather than . . . say . . . a Methodist
                                          > church?
                                          >
                                          > I'm hoping you won't tell me something like, "It's a shorter
                                          > commute," although I wouldn't put it past you. LOL In spite of the
                                          > dangers of "assuming" anything, I'd wager that there was "something"
                                          > about the Gnostic viewpoint that resonated differently for you than
                                          > within the mainstream.
                                          >
                                          > Again, this is the gist of the case I've tried to present here

                                          Well Bishop Stephan presides over the church, I'm just the senior
                                          priest by date of ordination (1975).

                                          Actually it is a longer commute. :-)

                                          Yes it was something different, in my case from the Rosicrucian
                                          (Heindel/Steiner not AMORC)/Manley Hall (still good)/New Age religious
                                          upbringing I had (actually it was not pushed on me, I took it up on
                                          my own). But I never had any Orthodox religious junk to deal with in
                                          my upbringing. I attended Episcopal services in Vietnam, but that
                                          was for the liturgy, because I was already hooked on that from
                                          Stephan's church, though I was more into Qabalah theologically than
                                          anything else at the time. It made a logical transition to Gnosis
                                          (especially Luria), and I never gave it up either. As you may have
                                          guessed, the liturgy drew me in, then came Gnosis.

                                          Regards
                                          --
                                          Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                                        • ernststrohregenmantelrad2000
                                          Hi, please bear with me because this is a long post. In post #7463 ... pseudo- gnostic wannabee again confusing his new age evolution of conscieous crap as a
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Apr 15, 2003
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                                            Hi, please bear with me because this is a long post.

                                            In post #7463

                                            >>>>Me: I see that this all got started from a post by New Age
                                            pseudo-
                                            gnostic wannabee again confusing his new age "evolution of
                                            conscieous" crap as a pale rendering of Gnosticism. And then
                                            that turned into bickering on the definition of "pistis" (BTW,
                                            looking back at posts, I felt like reading Irenaeus because the
                                            posts were erased yet some quotes were cited to refute.)<<

                                            Gerry:
                                            The only posts that were deleted had no purpose here. They
                                            were
                                            spam. There's actually another recent one I'm considering
                                            eliminating from the archives, but from now on, I'll be sure to
                                            forward all spam directly to your mailbox prior to deletion so you
                                            can lord over it as you please.<<<<

                                            I was just commenting on the how reading posts which were
                                            replies to the delated post reminded me of reading polmetical
                                            works of heresiologists. I was not commenting on the validity of
                                            erased posts or their relevence (as you see them) in this egroup.
                                            In fact if you are so concerned about spams why don't you erase
                                            #7361. (As of the time of this writing it is not erased.). This post
                                            is a spam as much as those that were posted by the delated ex-
                                            member Weyne. As for the posts in question they were Gerry's
                                            post #7304 which was a reply to #7298 and PMCV's post #7300
                                            which was reply to #7299. Now one post by Weyne was purely a
                                            post with just a link to a web site of a book (which he was so
                                            enthuse about or pushing everyone to buy it. It depeses on one's
                                            perspective) but IMO #7298 and #7299 included some
                                            information besides the link to the aforementioned web site.
                                            Granted that information might have been a rationalization to the
                                            web site but still it gave, as far as I can see from archives inspite
                                            of delated posts, some sort of discussion over the term
                                            "Gnosticism". But I really can not tell because the
                                            aforementioned posts were erased and judging from the replies
                                            on what really did Weyne post lead me to guessing because in
                                            replies his quotes are not in entirely and they may be quotted out
                                            of context. AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY I COMMENTED AS
                                            SUCH. JUST COMMENTING THAT THIS INTERACTION
                                            REMINDED ME OF IRENAEUS NOT I WANT TO READ SPAM AS
                                            YOU SARCASTICALLY STATED.

                                            Gerry #7463

                                            >>Thank you for your "clarification," but are you still somehow
                                            unaware
                                            that my conceptual distinction was never intended to be a
                                            technical
                                            definition, even after two people have pointed that out?<<<

                                            Is it right to make the distingtion between technical and non-
                                            technical term when you are discussing something historical
                                            and needs to be explained with definiton as you are doing with
                                            Incognito? This I find to be confusing. This is what you wrote in
                                            #7390 before your "sarcastic, non-technical" definition.

                                            > >>If sin isn't sin and faith isn't faith and creator isn't creator,
                                            than what is it?<<(Incognito)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Guess I goofed again. By including "damnation" (which you
                                            seemed to notice was out of place) in that string of redundancy, I
                                            was trying to show that if the mainstream definitions were the
                                            only ones available, then those groups sheltered under the
                                            umbrella of Gnosticism would be no different from the
                                            conventional orthodoxy. Are these differences not what we've
                                            been pointing out during this discussion of "faith"?
                                            >

                                            From this you draw up the supposed "sarcastic, non-technical"
                                            i.e. caricature definitions to show Incognito that these terms
                                            were different between Gnostics and so called pistics. I have no
                                            problem with that and I also see your point; however, what I
                                            pointing out is that (and I think this was what Incognito also was
                                            asserting -tell me if I'm wrong) that the difference between
                                            Gnostics and so called pistics came NOT as the result of
                                            different differnition of terms that you discussed (faith, sin,
                                            creator and damnation(!)) but as consequence resulting from
                                            their respective cosmology. So if you mean definition those
                                            terms are same for both Gnostics and Orthodox but the
                                            consequese is different. I feel you are confusing those two.



                                            >> BTW, if we
                                            stick to your literalist interpretation of "sin," then the only valid
                                            context we can allow for its discussion is on the field while taking
                                            aim at a bull's-eye.<<

                                            Again the term "sin" is same for both Gnostics and Orthodox.
                                            And thank you for your sarcastic comment but you know full well
                                            what I'm aiming at here (a pun intended). For both groups "sin",
                                            no matter what, means "missing the target set by God". Humans
                                            fell grory of "God" (or Pleroma in case of Gnostics) no matter
                                            what. That is the sin. The difference comes when ones goes
                                            from there-what to do with "sin". What is the consequese of "sin",
                                            How "sin" came about" and What is the remedty. In fact besides
                                            Pagels, I heard the defintion of "sin" as "missing the target" from
                                            two people. One is Stephan Hoeller in one of his talk and
                                            another is a Luteran paster in a church I used to attend. Now as
                                            you say those two are typical resprentive of your "Gnostics" and
                                            so called "pistic" yet they used the same definition of "sin as
                                            missing the target" And to tie with your discussion with Incognito
                                            on other terms, faith, etc... is also same in definition.


                                            >>Furthermore, if you think I pulled the
                                            understanding of "sin" as "ignorance" out of a hat, you're again
                                            mistaken.<<

                                            No, I didn't. Did I say that? Look again. I specially stated that it
                                            might be floating around the general discussion and perhasp
                                            from the TV documentary "Gnostics" in the post.



                                            >>If you don't like the term, Ernst, you're free to leave anytime.
                                            There's really no point in you remaining to discuss Gnosticism if
                                            you
                                            truly see no difference between those groups and the rest of
                                            Christianity. On the other hand, if you can remove your head
                                            from
                                            your definitions long enough to realize that certain
                                            generalizations
                                            can indeed be recognized, then the whole point of having
                                            a "Gnosticism" category at Yahoo might just be validated.<<

                                            Why not liking the term "pistic" warrent my departure from the
                                            group? The term like Gnosticism is not really cleary concensus
                                            term. There are differences of opinion on the term and what it
                                            entails (for example like I said how about Marcion?) plus it was
                                            the term not by used by those in question. If one goes by what
                                            you saying then a person should also leave because one is not
                                            happy with the definition of "Gnosticism". You are putting words
                                            in my mouth if I think there are no difference between Gnosticism
                                            and what became of Orthodox. What I was saying there is that
                                            the term pistic is a misnormer and shouldn't used at all (that's
                                            why I don't used it) and my feeling is that it shouldn't be used at
                                            all because it will create the confusion of equating what became
                                            as Orthodox with 'pistic' as some group. That is not seeing
                                            orthodox and gnostics and the same entities.

                                            BTW, when I created the club there was no yahoo category
                                            "Gnosticism". So basing that as one one the rationalization is not
                                            good.
                                          • George Harvey
                                            ... Hi, I wanted to ask you this off list as this is off topic, but you seem to have your address hidden so: What club are you talking about? And to everyone
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Apr 16, 2003
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad2000
                                              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > BTW, when I created the club there was no yahoo category
                                              > "Gnosticism". So basing that as one one the rationalization is not
                                              > good.

                                              Hi,
                                              I wanted to ask you this off list as this is off topic, but you seem
                                              to have your address hidden so:

                                              What club are you talking about?

                                              And to everyone else: I apologize for the off topic post.

                                              George
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