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Re: Sethian Gnostic Baptism

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  • Gerry
    ... it ... and ... so ... Well hello there, Incognito. I wondered where you d disappeared to. As for the seemingly paraphrased post, I think your instincts
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 8 6:05 AM
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, incognito_lightbringer
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Can you give a source for this? I enjoyed reading it and wondered
      > where you got it from. You titled it "Sethian Gnostic Baptism" but
      it
      > seemed like a composite of several gnostic texts. It paraphrases
      > parts of several Nag Hammadi codices such as Origin of the World
      and
      > The Second Apocalypse of James and the Sophia of Jesus Christ and
      so
      > on (I included these below). It was also similar to parts of Pistis
      > Sophia. There's probably more but those are the ones I recognized.
      >




      Well hello there, Incognito. I wondered where you'd disappeared to.

      As for the seemingly paraphrased post, I think your instincts and
      research are probably right on target. Whenever something like that
      is posted, with neither contextual commentary nor attribution of
      authorship, it's unlikely that you'll ever see a demonstration of its
      provenance from classical sources.

      Considering the subject of this piece in particular, I'm reminded of
      similar ones I've seen dumped at other sites which lead me to believe
      someone is interested in propagating an air of authenticity for their
      own "Sethian Gnostic…" compositions. When such a thing is posted
      here and there, forwarded elsewhere and inevitably referred back to,
      I suppose it eventually gets around to the point that the
      unquestioning take it as genuine. If that assessment is inaccurate,
      I'd love to see someone take responsibility for these works.

      BTW, I finally got around to taping _Vanilla Sky_ a few nights ago,
      but have been holding off on watching it 'til this weekend——Am hoping
      to have my eyes opened!

      Gerry

      P.S. I've been sitting here for a while doing my own sleuthing over
      this question of yours, and now I see you've posted another
      specifically for me. Let me get back to you on that one——Breakfast
      is calling!

      Ger
    • enos benset
      The former post Sethian Gnostic Baptism is a fiction and a quasi-paraphrase of the Mandaean Book of Souls, which can be found in English and Mandaic in
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 8 1:24 PM
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        The former post "Sethian Gnostic Baptism" is a fiction and a quasi-paraphrase of the Mandaean "Book of Souls," which can be found in English and Mandaic in E.S. Drower's "Canonical Prayerbook of the Mandaeans." The paraphrasing is performed by looking up key words in the Mandaean liturgy in a Biblical concordance and on a computer word file of the Nag Hammaddi Codexes, Pistis Sophia, other Gnostic and apocryphal Christian-Jewish texts of antiquity. The phrases of these texts that most resemble the language of the Mandaean liturgy are cut from the texts and modified in their refference points and in ways that would make the fictional text proper in its grammer and syntax. Also, much of the texts were chosen because of their similar themes to that of the Mandaean even though the names of divine beings are of a different system which are Sethian rather than Mandaic.

        The point of this fiction is that it could have some truth since the Sethian Gnostics certainly come from the same religious genre as the Mandaeans from the ancient semetic baptismal sects of the Jordan Valley around the time of Jesus and John the baptist. For instance, there are the sects that the Heresiologist Church fathers speak of as Mazbutwas, Sampseans, Ossenes, Ebionites, Elchasaites etc. There can be observered a similar structure and shared use of much language between the Eucharists and Baptismal liturgies of the various Orthodox and Catholic churches. So it is plausible that the same could be the case with the ist Century A.D Baptismal sects of Palistine from which the Sethians and Mandaeans both derive their legacy. Unfortunately, the Mandaeans are the only sect left that has a Baptismal formula preservered from that particular genre.

         

        CHAPTER 2.

        Illumined and illuminating is Zihrun, the great Mystery of radiance, light and glory,
        from whom Manda-d-Hiia emanated and was
        divulged, and from whose very Self noble sons of the mighty and sublime Life
        proceeded. He created 'uthras at his right and his
        left and installed them in their own shkintas, And they gave out light and were
        effulgent in their own raiment and gloried in the
        knowledge that their Father had transplanted them from the House of Life. And it is
        incumbent on a pupil to honour his Master
        like his parents, (so) the 'uthras rose on (their ?) thrones of radiance, light and
        glory and took off the crowns on their heads and
        placed them on the thrones of radiance, light and glory, saying, "A teacher is
        superior to parents! Rise, our Father, in praise, and
        lay on me Thy hand of truth and Thy great right hand of healings!" And Life be
        praised!

        [This prayer is the opening prayer of "In the name of that First Being"]

        My Lord be praised!

        In the name of the Great First Other-Worldly Life! From far-off worlds of light that
        are above all works may there be healing,
        victory, soundness, speech and a hearing, joy of heart and forgiving of sins for me,
        Adam-Yuhana son of Mahnus through the
        strength of Yawar-Ziwa and Simat-Hiia!

        CHAPTER 1.

        In the name of the Life and in the name of Knowledge-of-Life (Manda-d-Hiia) and
        in the name of that Primal Being who was
        Eldest and preceded water, radiance, light and glory, the Being who cried with His
        voice and uttered words. By means of His
        voice and His words Vines grew and came into being, and the First Life was
        established in its Abode.

        And He spoke and said, "The First Life is anterior to the Second Life by six
        thousand myriad years and the Second Life anterior
        to the Third Life by six thousand myriad years and the Third Life more ancient than
        any 'uthra by six thousand myriad years.
        And any 'uthra is older than the whole earth and older than the Seven Lords of the
        House by seven hundred and seventy
        thousand myriad years. There is that which is infinite.

        At that time there was no solid earth and no inhabitants in the black waters. From
        them, from those black waters, Evil was
        formed and emerged, One from whom a thousand thousand mysteries proceeded
        and a myriad myriad planets with their own
        mysteries.

        The Seven were wroth with me, were outraged and said, "The man who set out and
        came towards us hath not bound a circlet
        about his head!" Then I turned my face toward my Creator who created me, the
        celestial Lord of Greatness, and I said to Him, "O
        my Creator who created me, (O) Lord of lofty Greatness! As I went (my ways) the
        Seven were wroth with me and said, 'The
        man who went and came towards us hath not bound a circlet about his head!'."

        Then that Lord of Lofty Greatness took a circlet of radiance, light and glory and set
        it on my head; He laid on me His hand of
        Truth and His great right hand of healings and said to me, "Upon thee shall rest
        something of the likeness of Sam-Gufna and of
        Sam-Gufaian and of Sam-Pira-Hiwara, whose radiance gleams and whose
        appearance beams, for they are holy and believing
        beings in the Place of Light and in the everlasting Abode."

        And Manda-d-Hiia, the valorous 'uthra, taught, revealed and said "Every Nasoraean
        man who is righteous and believing, on
        arising from sleep, must take a white turban symbolising the great mystery of
        radiance, fight and glory and shall recite this prayer
        thereon. And he shall twist it round his head and repeat the prayer secretly. It will
        be his praise in the house of the great Celestial
        Father. And all persons who behold him will be subdued in his presence: any
        persecutor, or one who inciteth to wrath, will stand
        before him in fear, terror and trembling, (their knees) knocking together. And for
        me, Adam-Yuhana son of Mahnus, who have
        prayed this prayer and (these) devotions, there will be forgiving of sins and I shall
        be pure in all my words. And Life is victorious.
        [This is the prayer of the turban].
        CHAPTER 3.

        In the name of the Life!

        Life created Yawar-Ziwa, son of Light-of-Life, Hamgai-Ziwa son of Hamgagai-Ziwa.
        Illumined and illuminating is the Great
        Mystery of Radiance, Zihrun, a Crown of radiance, light and glory from whom a flow
        of living water streamed out to the
        shkintas. For he is the revealer (lit. opener) of radiance and light and displayeth
        his treasure which emanated from him, to eager
        'uthras. All worlds adore and praise the mighty First Life in its Indwellings, and Life
        is victorious.

        [This is the prayer of the turban]

        CHAPTER 5.

        In the name of the Great Life!

        Let there be light, let there be light! Let there be the light of the Great First Life!
        There shone forth wisdom, vigilance and praise
        of the First Mana which came from its place. He who twineth the wreath is
        Yufin-Yufafin: the bringer of the wreath is
        'It-'Nsibat-'utria. 'It-Yawar son of 'Nsibat-'utria set on the wreath. He brought it and
        placed it upon the head of the implanted
        mana which was transplanted from guarded (?) manas. The wreath flames and the
        leaves of the wreath flame! Before the Mana
        there is light, behind the Mana glory, and at either side of the Mana radiance,
        brilliance and purity. And at the four corners of the
        House and the seven sides of the firmanent silence, bliss and glory prevail (lit. are
        found). And Life be praised!

        [This is the prayer for the turban. Read it and set it on thy head.]

        CHAPTER 19.

        Manda created me, 'uthras set me up, radiance clothed me and light covered me:
        Haza-zban set the wreath on my head, mine,
        Adam-Yuhana , son of Mahnush, and on these souls who descend to the jordan
        and are baptised. Its tendrils shine and its
        perfume is sweet, for they (the tendrils) wither not nor do they come apart, and its
        leaves do not fall off.

        And Life be praised! [This is the set prayer for the baptism wreath. Recite it over
        the myrtle-wreath and place it on the heads of the souls that thou baptisest].



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      • enos benset
        The former post Sethian Gnostic Baptism is a fiction and a quasi-paraphrase of the Mandaean Book of Souls, which can be found in English and Mandaic in
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 8 1:26 PM
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          The former post "Sethian Gnostic Baptism" is a fiction and a quasi-paraphrase of the Mandaean "Book of Souls," which can be found in English and Mandaic in E.S. Drower's "Canonical Prayerbook of the Mandaeans." The paraphrasing is performed by looking up key words in the Mandaean liturgy in a Biblical concordance and on a computer word file of the Nag Hammaddi Codexes, Pistis Sophia, other Gnostic and apocryphal Christian-Jewish texts of antiquity. The phrases of these texts that most resemble the language of the Mandaean liturgy are cut from the texts and modified in their refference points and in ways that would make the fictional text proper in its grammer and syntax. Also, much of the texts were chosen because of their similar themes to that of the Mandaean even though the names of divine beings are of a different system which are Sethian rather than Mandaic.

          The point of this fiction is that it could have some truth since the Sethian Gnostics certainly come from the same religious genre as the Mandaeans from the ancient semetic baptismal sects of the Jordan Valley around the time of Jesus and John the baptist. For instance, there are the sects that the Heresiologist Church fathers speak of as Mazbutwas, Sampseans, Ossenes, Ebionites, Elchasaites etc. There can be observered a similar structure and shared use of much language between the Eucharists and Baptismal liturgies of the various Orthodox and Catholic churches. So it is plausible that the same could be the case with the ist Century A.D Baptismal sects of Palistine from which the Sethians and Mandaeans both derive their legacy. Unfortunately, the Mandaeans are the only sect left that has a Baptismal formula preservered from that particular genre.

           

          CHAPTER 2.

          Illumined and illuminating is Zihrun, the great Mystery of radiance, light and glory,
          from whom Manda-d-Hiia emanated and was
          divulged, and from whose very Self noble sons of the mighty and sublime Life
          proceeded. He created 'uthras at his right and his
          left and installed them in their own shkintas, And they gave out light and were
          effulgent in their own raiment and gloried in the
          knowledge that their Father had transplanted them from the House of Life. And it is
          incumbent on a pupil to honour his Master
          like his parents, (so) the 'uthras rose on (their ?) thrones of radiance, light and
          glory and took off the crowns on their heads and
          placed them on the thrones of radiance, light and glory, saying, "A teacher is
          superior to parents! Rise, our Father, in praise, and
          lay on me Thy hand of truth and Thy great right hand of healings!" And Life be
          praised!

          [This prayer is the opening prayer of "In the name of that First Being"]

          My Lord be praised!

          In the name of the Great First Other-Worldly Life! From far-off worlds of light that
          are above all works may there be healing,
          victory, soundness, speech and a hearing, joy of heart and forgiving of sins for me,
          Adam-Yuhana son of Mahnus through the
          strength of Yawar-Ziwa and Simat-Hiia!

          CHAPTER 1.

          In the name of the Life and in the name of Knowledge-of-Life (Manda-d-Hiia) and
          in the name of that Primal Being who was
          Eldest and preceded water, radiance, light and glory, the Being who cried with His
          voice and uttered words. By means of His
          voice and His words Vines grew and came into being, and the First Life was
          established in its Abode.

          And He spoke and said, "The First Life is anterior to the Second Life by six
          thousand myriad years and the Second Life anterior
          to the Third Life by six thousand myriad years and the Third Life more ancient than
          any 'uthra by six thousand myriad years.
          And any 'uthra is older than the whole earth and older than the Seven Lords of the
          House by seven hundred and seventy
          thousand myriad years. There is that which is infinite.

          At that time there was no solid earth and no inhabitants in the black waters. From
          them, from those black waters, Evil was
          formed and emerged, One from whom a thousand thousand mysteries proceeded
          and a myriad myriad planets with their own
          mysteries.

          The Seven were wroth with me, were outraged and said, "The man who set out and
          came towards us hath not bound a circlet
          about his head!" Then I turned my face toward my Creator who created me, the
          celestial Lord of Greatness, and I said to Him, "O
          my Creator who created me, (O) Lord of lofty Greatness! As I went (my ways) the
          Seven were wroth with me and said, 'The
          man who went and came towards us hath not bound a circlet about his head!'."

          Then that Lord of Lofty Greatness took a circlet of radiance, light and glory and set
          it on my head; He laid on me His hand of
          Truth and His great right hand of healings and said to me, "Upon thee shall rest
          something of the likeness of Sam-Gufna and of
          Sam-Gufaian and of Sam-Pira-Hiwara, whose radiance gleams and whose
          appearance beams, for they are holy and believing
          beings in the Place of Light and in the everlasting Abode."

          And Manda-d-Hiia, the valorous 'uthra, taught, revealed and said "Every Nasoraean
          man who is righteous and believing, on
          arising from sleep, must take a white turban symbolising the great mystery of
          radiance, fight and glory and shall recite this prayer
          thereon. And he shall twist it round his head and repeat the prayer secretly. It will
          be his praise in the house of the great Celestial
          Father. And all persons who behold him will be subdued in his presence: any
          persecutor, or one who inciteth to wrath, will stand
          before him in fear, terror and trembling, (their knees) knocking together. And for
          me, Adam-Yuhana son of Mahnus, who have
          prayed this prayer and (these) devotions, there will be forgiving of sins and I shall
          be pure in all my words. And Life is victorious.
          [This is the prayer of the turban].
          CHAPTER 3.

          In the name of the Life!

          Life created Yawar-Ziwa, son of Light-of-Life, Hamgai-Ziwa son of Hamgagai-Ziwa.
          Illumined and illuminating is the Great
          Mystery of Radiance, Zihrun, a Crown of radiance, light and glory from whom a flow
          of living water streamed out to the
          shkintas. For he is the revealer (lit. opener) of radiance and light and displayeth
          his treasure which emanated from him, to eager
          'uthras. All worlds adore and praise the mighty First Life in its Indwellings, and Life
          is victorious.

          [This is the prayer of the turban]

          CHAPTER 5.

          In the name of the Great Life!

          Let there be light, let there be light! Let there be the light of the Great First Life!
          There shone forth wisdom, vigilance and praise
          of the First Mana which came from its place. He who twineth the wreath is
          Yufin-Yufafin: the bringer of the wreath is
          'It-'Nsibat-'utria. 'It-Yawar son of 'Nsibat-'utria set on the wreath. He brought it and
          placed it upon the head of the implanted
          mana which was transplanted from guarded (?) manas. The wreath flames and the
          leaves of the wreath flame! Before the Mana
          there is light, behind the Mana glory, and at either side of the Mana radiance,
          brilliance and purity. And at the four corners of the
          House and the seven sides of the firmanent silence, bliss and glory prevail (lit. are
          found). And Life be praised!

          [This is the prayer for the turban. Read it and set it on thy head.]

          CHAPTER 19.

          Manda created me, 'uthras set me up, radiance clothed me and light covered me:
          Haza-zban set the wreath on my head, mine,
          Adam-Yuhana , son of Mahnush, and on these souls who descend to the jordan
          and are baptised. Its tendrils shine and its
          perfume is sweet, for they (the tendrils) wither not nor do they come apart, and its
          leaves do not fall off.

          And Life be praised! [This is the set prayer for the baptism wreath. Recite it over
          the myrtle-wreath and place it on the heads of the souls that thou baptisest].

           



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        • Gerry
          Reply to post #7262 by Enos Benset: Ahhh, thank you for that, Enos. That wasn t so hard, was it?! ;-) For those wishing to pursue their own investigation,
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 8 3:00 PM
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            Reply to post #7262 by Enos Benset:

             

             

            Ahhh, thank you for that, Enos.  That wasn’t so hard, was it?!  ;-)  For those wishing to pursue their own investigation, that additional information is surely more constructive than just dropping off an apparent scriptural quotation without so much as a “hello” or “how are you,” not to mention some sort of citation.

             

            As we’ve really only had minimal discussion of Mandaeans here, did you find any startling revelations in Drower’s work?  Just wondering to what extent you’d recommend it to others.

             

            Gerry

             

             

          • enos benset
            As for the Mandaean tradition, the reciting of the English stanza transelated from Mandaic have, when done properly, been followed by an experience of the
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 11 8:01 PM
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              As for the Mandaean tradition, the reciting of the English stanza transelated from Mandaic have, when done properly, been followed by an experience of the Sublime alternative to sleep paralysis, a sort of lucid dream with the voices of an angel or uthra, sublime being.

              The trick is to start with the most alienating sort of stanza about lonelyness, isolation, homesickness, dying ect. It's a sort of verbal aceticism; raising up feelings of alienation.

              Then, once there is the self-realization that one does not belong to the cosmos with all its suffering and indifference, one can reach out and petition the source of one's own being in spirit. One must call for an answer from the source.

              In the Name of the first great Life, from worlds of Light; the Sublime One that stands above all works.
              I am a Mana of the great Life, a Mana of the Mighty Life am I. A Mana I am of the great Life: who has made me to live in the terrestrial world.
              In the tibil (dust?) who has made me to dwell, who has cast me into the bodily trunk? Who has cast me into the stump which has no hands nor feet? It has no hands nor feet, and knows not how it should walk.It lies there and crawls, and has no strength.
              Why did they call me from my place and bring me hither and cast me into the stump?
              A Mana am I of the great Life; who has throm me into the suffering worlds? Who has transported me to the evil darkness?
              So long I endure and dwell in the world, so long I dwell among the works of my hands.
              Grief and war I suffer in the body garment into which they transported and cast me. How often must I put it off; How often must I put it on; must ever again settle my strife and not behold Life in Its Highest Habitation: aworld of light without darkness, a world of mildness without rebellion, a world of righteousness without decay and death, a world of goodness without evil.
              O How shall I rejoice then who am now afflicted and afraid in the dwelling of the evil ones? O How shall my heart rejoice outside the works which I have made in this world?
              How long shall I wonder and how long sink within all the worlds?.....
              A Vine am I, a lonely one that stands in the world. I have no sublime planter, no keeper, no mild helper to come and instruct me about everything.
              The seven opress me; the twelve became my persecution.
              The First Life has forgotten me; the second does not inquire after me.
              My eyes which were opened from the Place of Light, now belong to the stump. My heart which longs for the Life came here and was made part of the stump.
              My mind, a treasure in which the Life resides, has been housed here in bodily clothes.
              My feet were planted by chosen planters. Now they must wonder the path of the stump.
              It is the path of the stump. The seven will not let me go my own way.
              How must I obey?
              How must I endure?
              How must I quite my mind?....
              How must I hear the seven and the twelve mysteries?....
              How must I groan?
              How must my mild Paren't word dwell among the creatures of the dark? 
               


              ALIEN CONCEPT IN GNOSTICISM

              The alien is that which stems from elsewhere and does not belong here. To those who do belong here it is thus the strange, the unfamiliar and incomprehensible; but their world on its part is just as incomprehensible to the alien that comes to dwell here, and like a foreign land where it is far from home. Then it suffers the lot of the stranger who is lonely, unprotected, uncomprehended, and uncomprehending in a situation full of danger. Anguish and homesickness are a part of the stranger�s lot. The stranger who does not know the ways of the foreign land wanders about lost; if he learns its ways too well, he forgets that he is a stranger and gets lost in a different sense by succumbing to the lure of the alien world and becoming estranged from his own origin. Then he has become a "son of the house." This too is part of the alien�s fate. In his alienation from himself the distress has gone, but this very fact is the culmination of the stranger�s tragedy. The recollection of his own alieness, the recognition of his place of exile for what it is, is the first step back; the awakened home sickness is the beginning of the return. All this belongs to the "suffering" side of alienness. Yet with relation to its origin it is at the same time a mark of excellence, a source of power and of a secret life unknown to the environment and in the last resort impregnable to it, as it is incomprehensible to the creatures of this world. This superiority of the alien, which distinguishes it even here, though secretly, is its manifest glory in its own native realm, which is outside this world. In such position the alien is the remote, the inaccessible, and its strangeness means majesty. Thus the alien taken absolutely is the wholly transcendent, the "beyond" and an eminent attribute of God.
              ------ Hans Jonas "The Gnostic Religion"

               Gerry <gerryhsp@...> wrote:

               

              Reply to post #7262 by Enos Benset:

               

               

              Ahhh, thank you for that, Enos.  That wasn�t so hard, was it?!  ;-)  For those wishing to pursue their own investigation, that additional information is surely more constructive than just dropping off an apparent scriptural quotation without so much as a �hello� or �how are you,� not to mention some sort of citation.

               

              As we�ve really only had minimal discussion of Mandaeans here, did you find any startling revelations in Drower�s work?  Just wondering to what extent you�d recommend it to others.

               

              Gerry

               

               



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            • ernststrohregenmantelrad
              IMHO, I don t think Mandeanas are Gnostics in the present guise. ... transelated from Mandaic have, when done properly, been followed by an experience of the
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 12 10:27 PM
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                IMHO, I don't think Mandeanas are Gnostics in the present guise.

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, enos benset <enosbnst@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > As for the Mandaean tradition, the reciting of the English stanza
                transelated from Mandaic have, when done properly, been followed by an
                experience of the Sublime alternative to sleep paralysis, a sort of lucid
                dream with the voices of an angel or uthra, sublime being.
                > The trick is to start with the most alienating sort of stanza about
                lonelyness, isolation, homesickness, dying ect. It's a sort of verbal
                aceticism; raising up feelings of alienation.
                > Then, once there is the self-realization that one does not belong to the
                cosmos with all its suffering and indifference, one can reach out and
                petition the source of one's own being in spirit. One must call for an
                answer from the source.
                > In the Name of the first great Life, from worlds of Light; the Sublime
                One that stands above all works.
                > I am a Mana of the great Life, a Mana of the Mighty Life am I. A Mana I
                am of the great Life: who has made me to live in the terrestrial world.
                > In the tibil (dust?) who has made me to dwell, who has cast me into the
                bodily trunk? Who has cast me into the stump which has no hands nor
                feet? It has no hands nor feet, and knows not how it should walk.It lies
                there and crawls, and has no strength.
                > Why did they call me from my place and bring me hither and cast me
                into the stump?
                > A Mana am I of the great Life; who has throm me into the suffering
                worlds? Who has transported me to the evil darkness?
                > So long I endure and dwell in the world, so long I dwell among the works
                of my hands.
                > Grief and war I suffer in the body garment into which they transported
                and cast me. How often must I put it off; How often must I put it on; must
                ever again settle my strife and not behold Life in Its Highest Habitation:
                aworld of light without darkness, a world of mildness without rebellion, a
                world of righteousness without decay and death, a world of goodness
                without evil.
                > O How shall I rejoice then who am now afflicted and afraid in the
                dwelling of the evil ones? O How shall my heart rejoice outside the works
                which I have made in this world?
                > How long shall I wonder and how long sink within all the worlds?.....
                > A Vine am I, a lonely one that stands in the world. I have no sublime
                planter, no keeper, no mild helper to come and instruct me about
                everything.
                > The seven opress me; the twelve became my persecution.
                > The First Life has forgotten me; the second does not inquire after me.
                > My eyes which were opened from the Place of Light, now belong to the
                stump. My heart which longs for the Life came here and was made part of
                the stump.
                > My mind, a treasure in which the Life resides, has been housed here in
                bodily clothes.
                > My feet were planted by chosen planters. Now they must wonder the
                path of the stump.
                > It is the path of the stump. The seven will not let me go my own way.
                > How must I obey?
                > How must I endure?
                > How must I quite my mind?....
                > How must I hear the seven and the twelve mysteries?....
                > How must I groan?
                > How must my mild Paren't word dwell among the creatures of the dark?
                >
                >
                > ALIEN CONCEPT IN GNOSTICISM
                > The alien is that which stems from elsewhere and does not belong here.
                To those who do belong here it is thus the strange, the unfamiliar and
                incomprehensible; but their world on its part is just as incomprehensible
                to the alien that comes to dwell here, and like a foreign land where it is far
                from home. Then it suffers the lot of the stranger who is lonely,
                unprotected, uncomprehended, and uncomprehending in a situation full
                of danger. Anguish and homesickness are a part of the stranger's lot. The
                stranger who does not know the ways of the foreign land wanders about
                lost; if he learns its ways too well, he forgets that he is a stranger and
                gets lost in a different sense by succumbing to the lure of the alien world
                and becoming estranged from his own origin. Then he has become a "son
                of the house." This too is part of the alien's fate. In his alienation from
                himself the distress has gone, but this very fact is the culmination of the
                stranger's tragedy. The recollection of his own alieness, the recognition
                of his place of exile for what it is, is the first step back; the awakened
                home sickness is the beginning of the return. All this belongs to the
                "suffering" side of alienness. Yet with relation to its origin it is at the same
                time a mark of excellence, a source of power and of a secret life unknown
                to the environment and in the last resort impregnable to it, as it is
                incomprehensible to the creatures of this world. This superiority of the
                alien, which distinguishes it even here, though secretly, is its manifest
                glory in its own native realm, which is outside this world. In such position
                the alien is the remote, the inaccessible, and its strangeness means
                majesty. Thus the alien taken absolutely is the wholly transcendent, the
                "beyond" and an eminent attribute of God.
                > ------ Hans Jonas "The Gnostic Religion"
                >
                >
                > Gerry <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Reply to post #7262 by Enos Benset:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Ahhh, thank you for that, Enos. That wasn't so hard, was it?! ;-) For
                those wishing to pursue their own investigation, that additional
                information is surely more constructive than just dropping off an
                apparent scriptural quotation without so much as a "hello or "how are you,
                not to mention some sort of citation.
                >
                >
                >
                > As we've really only had minimal discussion of Mandaeans here, did you
                find any startling revelations in Drower's work? Just wondering to what
                extent you'd recommend it to others.
                >
                >
                >
                > Gerry
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • lady_caritas
                ... Ernst, would you care to expand on this statement? Cari
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 13 9:00 PM
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > IMHO, I don't think Mandeanas are Gnostics in the present guise.


                  Ernst, would you care to expand on this statement?

                  Cari
                • incognito_lightbringer
                  Hi Gerry, I ve been busy. Did you manage to rent The Saragossa Manuscript? And try to find No Such Thing out on video/DVD late last year. Also, can t
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 21 3:01 AM
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                    Hi Gerry, I've been busy.
                    Did you manage to rent The Saragossa Manuscript?
                    And try to find "No Such Thing" out on video/DVD late last year.
                    Also, can't remember if I mentioned Hedwig and the Angry Inch.
                    We've to do a gnostic music post sometime. We can start with David
                    Bowie and Ziggy Stardust.
                    One of these days I've got to compose my own Gnostic composition and
                    put it out there without attribution, just to see if it rocks any
                    boats ;)

                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, incognito_lightbringer
                    > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > Can you give a source for this? I enjoyed reading it and wondered
                    > > where you got it from. You titled it "Sethian Gnostic Baptism"
                    but
                    > it
                    > > seemed like a composite of several gnostic texts. It paraphrases
                    > > parts of several Nag Hammadi codices such as Origin of the World
                    > and
                    > > The Second Apocalypse of James and the Sophia of Jesus Christ and
                    > so
                    > > on (I included these below). It was also similar to parts of
                    Pistis
                    > > Sophia. There's probably more but those are the ones I recognized.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Well hello there, Incognito. I wondered where you'd disappeared to.
                    >
                    > As for the seemingly paraphrased post, I think your instincts and
                    > research are probably right on target. Whenever something like
                    that
                    > is posted, with neither contextual commentary nor attribution of
                    > authorship, it's unlikely that you'll ever see a demonstration of
                    its
                    > provenance from classical sources.
                    >
                    > Considering the subject of this piece in particular, I'm reminded
                    of
                    > similar ones I've seen dumped at other sites which lead me to
                    believe
                    > someone is interested in propagating an air of authenticity for
                    their
                    > own "Sethian Gnostic…" compositions. When such a thing is posted
                    > here and there, forwarded elsewhere and inevitably referred back
                    to,
                    > I suppose it eventually gets around to the point that the
                    > unquestioning take it as genuine. If that assessment is
                    inaccurate,
                    > I'd love to see someone take responsibility for these works.
                    >
                    > BTW, I finally got around to taping _Vanilla Sky_ a few nights ago,
                    > but have been holding off on watching it 'til this weekend——Am
                    hoping
                    > to have my eyes opened!
                    >
                    > Gerry
                    >
                    > P.S. I've been sitting here for a while doing my own sleuthing
                    over
                    > this question of yours, and now I see you've posted another
                    > specifically for me. Let me get back to you on that one——Breakfast
                    > is calling!
                    >
                    > Ger
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