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Re: Sethian Gnostic Baptism

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  • incognito_lightbringer
    Can you give a source for this? I enjoyed reading it and wondered where you got it from. You titled it Sethian Gnostic Baptism but it seemed like a composite
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 8, 2003
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      Can you give a source for this? I enjoyed reading it and wondered
      where you got it from. You titled it "Sethian Gnostic Baptism" but it
      seemed like a composite of several gnostic texts. It paraphrases
      parts of several Nag Hammadi codices such as Origin of the World and
      The Second Apocalypse of James and the Sophia of Jesus Christ and so
      on (I included these below). It was also similar to parts of Pistis
      Sophia. There's probably more but those are the ones I recognized.

      <<For he is immortal and eternal. Now he is eternal, having no birth;
      for everyone who has birth will perish. He is unbegotten, having no
      beginning; for everyone who has a beginning has an end. Since no one
      rules over him, he has no name; for whoever has a name is the
      creation of another." >> Sophia of Jesus Christ

      <<"And he kissed my mouth. He took hold of me, saying, "My beloved!
      Behold, I shall reveal to you those things that (neither) the heavens
      nor their archons have known. Behold, I shall reveal to you those
      things that he did not know, he who boasted, "[...] there is no other
      except me. Am I not alive? Because I am a father, do I not have power
      for everything?" Behold, I shall reveal to you everything, my
      beloved. Understand and know them, that you may come forth just as I
      am. Behold, I shall reveal to you him who is hidden. But now, stretch
      out your hand. Now, take hold of me." And then I stretched out my
      hands and I did not find him as I thought (he would be). But
      afterward I heard him saying, "Understand and take hold of me." Then
      I understood, and I was afraid. And I was exceedingly joyful>>
      Second Apocalypse of James

      <<How well it suits all men, on the subject of chaos, to say that it
      is a kind of darkness! But in fact it comes from a shadow, which has
      been called by the name 'darkness'. And the shadow comes from a
      product that has existed since the beginning. It is, moreover, clear
      that it existed before chaos came into being, and that the latter is
      posterior to the first product......Then shadow perceived there was
      something mightier than it, and felt envy; and when it had become
      pregnant of its own accord, suddenly it engendered jealousy. Since
      that day, the principle of jealousy amongst all the eternal realms
      and their worlds has been apparent. Now as for that jealousy, it was
      found to be an abortion without any spirit in it. Like a shadow, it
      came into existence in a vast watery substance. Then the bile that
      had come into being out of the shadow was thrown into a part of
      chaos. Since that day, a watery substance has been apparent. And what
      sank within it flowed away, being visible in chaos: as with a woman
      giving birth to a child - all her superfluities flow out; just so,
      matter came into being out of shadow, and was projected apart. And it
      did not depart from chaos; rather, matter was in chaos, being in a
      part of it....Now as for the ruler Yaltabaoth, he is ignorant of the
      force of Pistis: he did not see her face, rather he saw in the water
      the likeness that spoke with him. And because of that voice, he
      called himself 'Yaldabaoth'. But 'Ariael' is what the perfect call
      him, for he was like a lion. >> On the Origin of the World

      <<And I delivered him to those who give robes - Yammon, Elasso,
      Amenai - and they covered him with a robe from the robes of the
      Light; and I delivered him to the baptizers, and they baptized him -
      Micheus, Michar, Mnesinous - and they immersed him in the spring of
      the Water of Life. And I delivered him to those who enthrone -
      Bariel, Nouthan, Sabenai - and they enthroned him from the Throne of
      Glory. And I delivered him to those who glorify - Ariom, Elien,
      Phariel - and they glorified him with the glory of the Fatherhood.
      And those who snatch away snatched away - Kamaliel, [...]anen,
      Samblo, and the servants of <the> great holy luminaries - and they
      took him into the light-place of his Fatherhood. And he received the
      Five seals from the Light of the Mother, Protennoia, and it was
      granted him to partake of the mystery of knowledge, and he became a
      Light in Light. >> Trimorphic Protennoia

      <<Father of All, Ennoia of the Light, dwelling in the heights above
      the (regions) below, Light dwelling in the heights, Voice of Truth,
      upright Nous, untouchable Logos, and ineffable Voice,
      incomprehensible Father! >>
      Thought of Norea

      <<The holy book of the Egyptians about the great invisible Spirit,
      the Father whose name cannot be uttered, he who came forth from the
      heights of the perfection, the light of the light of the aeons of
      light, the light of the silence of the providence <and> the Father of
      the silence, the light of the word and the truth, the light of the
      incorruptions, the infinite light, the radiance from the aeons of
      light of the unrevealable, unmarked, ageless, unproclaimable Father,
      the aeon of the aeons, Autogenes, self-begotten, self-producing,
      alien, the really true aeon.
      ..........Then providence came forth from silence, and the living
      silence of the Spirit, and the Word of the Father, and a light. She
      [...] the five seals which the Father brought forth from his bosom,
      and she passed through all the aeons which I mentioned before. And
      she established thrones of glory, and myriads of angels without
      number who surrounded them, powers and incorruptible glories, who
      sing and give glory, all giving praise with a single voice, with one
      accord, with one never-silent voice, [...] to the Father, and the
      Mother, and the Son [...], and all the pleromas that I mentioned
      before, who is the great Christ, who is from silence, who is the
      incorruptible child Telmael Telmachael Eli Eli Machar Machar Seth,
      the power which really truly lives, and the male virgin who is with
      him, Youel, and Esephech, the holder of glory, the child of the
      child, and the crown of his glory, [...] of the five seals, the
      pleroma that I mentioned before. >> Gospel of the Egyptians


      Also, Chapter 32 of Pistis Sophia
      <<The Pistis Sophia cried out very much. She cried out to the Light
      of Lights which she had seen from the beginning, in which she had
      believed, and she said this repentance, speaking thus :

      1. 'O Light of Lights, in whom I have believed from the beginning,
      hear my repentance now at this time, O Light; save me, O Light, for
      wicked thoughts have entered into me.

      2. I looked, O Light, to the parts below. I saw a light in that
      place, and I thought : I will go to that place to receive that light.
      And I went, and I came to be in the darkness which is in the Chaos
      below. And I was not able to proceed out to go to my place, because I
      was oppressed among all the emanations of the Authades. And the lion-
      faced power took away my inner light.

      3. And I cried out for help, and my voice did not penetrate the
      darkness. And I looked to the height, so that the Light in which I
      had believed might help me.

      4. And when I looked to the height, I saw all the archons of the
      aeons , that they were numerous and they looked down upon me,
      rejoicing over me, although I had done nothing evil to them, but they
      had hated me without cause.

      And when the emanations of the Authades saw the archons of the aeons
      rejoicing over me, they knew that the archons of the aeons would not
      help me. And those emanations which oppressed me without cause were
      encouraged. And they took from me the light which I did not take from
      them. 5. Now at this time, O true Light, thou knowest that I have
      done these things in my simplicity, thinking that the lion-faced
      light belonged to thee, and the sin which I have committed is
      manifest in thy presence.

      6. Do not now let me be lacking, O Lord, for I have believed in thy
      light from the beginning, O Lord, Light of the powers, do not let me
      now lack my light.

      7. For on account of thee and thy light I have come to be in this
      oppression, and shame has covered me.

      8. And because of the delusion of thy light, I have become a stranger
      to my brothers, the invisible ones, and also to the great emanations
      of the Barbelo.

      9. These things happened to me, O Light, because I was eager for thy
      dwelling-place. And the anger of the Authades came down upon me -
      this one who did not obey thy command to emanate from the emanation
      of his power - because I was in his aeon and not performing his
      mystery.

      10. And all the archons of the aeons mocked me.

      11. And I was in that place, sorrowing and seeking the light which I
      had seen in the height.

      12. And the watchers of the gates of the aeons were seeking me, and
      all those who continued in their mystery mocked me. 13. But I looked
      up to the height to thee, O Light. And I believed in thee. Now at
      this time, O Light of Lights, I am oppressed in the darkness of the
      Chaos. If now thou dost wish to come to save me - great is thy
      compassion - hear me truly and save me.

      14. Save me out of the matter of this darkness, so that I shall not
      be immersed in it, and that I shall be saved from the emanations of
      the deity, Authades, which oppress me, and from their evils.

      15. Do not allow this darkness to immerse me, and do not allow this
      lion-faced power to swallow up all my power completely. And do not
      allow this Chaos to cover over my power.

      16. Hear me O Light, for thy mercy is precious, and look down upon
      me, according to the great compassion of thy light.

      17. Do not turn away thy face from me, for I am greatly afflicted.

      18. Hear me quickly and save my power.

      19. Save me, on account of the archons which hate me, for thou
      knowest my affliction and my torment, and the torment of my power
      which they have taken from me.

      Those who have put me into all these evils are in thy presence. Deal
      with them according to thy will.

      20. My power looked forth from the midst of the Chaos, and from the
      midst of the darkness. I looked for my partner, that he should come
      and fight for me, and he did not come. And I looked that he should
      come and give power to me, and I did not find him.

      21. And when I sought for light, I was given darkness.

      And when I sought for my power, I was given matter .

      22. Now at this time, O Light of Lights, let the darkness and the
      matter which the emanations of the Authades have brought upon me
      become a snare for them, and let them be ensnared therein. And do
      thou repay them and bring disgrace upon them, so that they do not
      come to the place of their Authades.

      23. Let them remain in darkness and not see the light.

      Let them look at the Chaos at all times, and do not let them look at
      the height.

      24. Bring down upon them their vengeance, and let thy judgment seize
      them.

      25. Do not let them go to their place from this time, to their deity,
      Authades. And do not let his emanations go to their places from this
      time. Because their god is impious and insolent, because he thought
      that he had done these wicked things of himself, not knowing that,
      unless I was humbled according to thy ordinance, he would have had no
      power over me.

      26. But when thou didst humble me, according to thy ordinance, I was
      persecuted the more. And their emanations inflicted torments upon my
      humiliation. 27. And they took a light-power from me. And furthermore
      they began to torment me greatly , in order to take away all the
      light that was in me. On account of these things into which I was
      put, do not let them go up to the thirteenth aeon, the place of
      righteousness.

      28. And do not let them be numbered within the portion of those who
      purify themselves and their light. And do not let them be numbered
      among those who will repent quickly, so that they will quickly
      receive mysteries in the light.

      29. For they have taken my light from me. And my power has begun to
      decrease within me. And I lack my light.

      30. Now at this time, O Light which art in thee and with me, I sing
      praises to thy name, O Light, in glory.

      31. And may my song of praise, O Light, please thee, like an
      excellent mystery which is received into the gates of light, which
      those who will repent, will recite, and whose light they will purify.

      32. Now at this time, let all material things rejoice; seek the
      light, all of you, so that the power of your souls, which is within
      you, may live.

      33. Because the Light has heard the material things, and it will not
      leave any material things which it has not purified.

      34. Let the souls and the material things bless the Lord of all the
      aeons ; the material things and all things in them. 35. For God will
      save their souls out of all matter, and a city will be prepared in
      the light; and all souls which will be saved will dwell in that city,
      and they will inherit it.

      36. And the soul of those who will receive mysteries will be in that
      place, and they who have received mysteries in his name will be
      within it'." .

      >>



      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "enosbnst" <enosbnst@y...> wrote:
      > Illumined and illuminating is the whole Place where in dwells
      Pronoia,
      > the Thought of Light, the great unnameable mystery of the living
      > silence of the Spirit, and the Word of the Father, and a Light
      > dwelling in Light; from whom providence, the First-born, the First-
      > begotten, came forth, He created gods and archangels and angels,
      > myriads without number, powers and glories and incorruptions; and
      > established thrones in glory, myriads without number, in the four
      > aeons around them. And they reflected upon the knowledge of the
      > eternal God in their heart. That is, the knowledge of the Thought of
      > the Fatherhood.
      > And it behoveth a disciple to learn from his teacher and a man from
      > his God. And so
      > the angels fell down before him and worshiped him that lives for
      ever
      > and ever, and cast their crowns before his throne, saying: God is
      our
      > teacher. Stretch out to us, O Him-Who-Is, at all times thy right
      hand
      > of blessings.
      >
      > In the Name of the great invisible Spirit, the aeon of the aeons,
      > Autogenes, self-begotten, self-producing, alien, the really true
      > aeon. May to everyone and everything (come) the fatherly kindness
      and
      > affection and love, and any teaching there may be that is sweet and
      > plain, giving us mind, speech, (and) knowledge: mind, so that we
      may
      > understand You, speech, so that we may expound You, knowledge, so
      > that we may know You. We rejoice, having been illuminated by Your
      > knowledge; and may forgiveness be with me, (so and so,) through the
      > great mystery of forgiveness of sins.
      > In the Name of the Father of All, Ennoia of the Light, dwelling in
      > the heights above the (regions) below, Light dwelling in the
      heights,
      > Voice of Truth, upright Nous, untouchable Logos, and ineffable
      Voice,
      > incomprehensible Father! And in the Name of the Great first aeon,
      > male virginal Barbelo, the first glory of the invisible Father, she
      > who is called "perfect". And in the Name of HIM-WHO-IS, whose aeon
      > was prepared before Time and preceded the living water, the Silence
      > hidden from the All, and the immeasurable Light, uttering a Voice
      by
      > means of thought that cries out in everyone, vines spread and
      > flourished, and light came into being by itself, established
      > [itself], and appeared in its aeon.
      > He-Who-Is is ineffable. No principle knew him, no authority, no
      > subjection, nor any creature from the foundation of the world,
      except
      > he alone. For he is immortal and eternal, having no birth; for
      > everyone who has birth will perish. He is unbegotten, having no
      > beginning; for everyone who has a beginning has an end. No one
      rules
      > over him. He has no name; for whoever has a name is the creation of
      > another. He is prior to perfection. He was prior to every divinity,
      > and he is prior to every blessedness, since he provides for every
      > power.
      > At that time, before the foundation of the cosmos, the earth was
      > without form and void and the limitless darkness was upon the
      > bottomless water. From it, there appeared jealousy, a force
      presiding
      > over the darkness called 'the limitless chaos,' an abortion without
      > any spirit in it. Like a shadow, it came into existence in a vast
      > watery substance. It appeared, out of the waters, lion-like in
      > appearance, androgynous, having great authority within him, and
      > ignorant of whence he had come into being. From it, every kind of
      > divinity sprouted up [...] together with the entire place.
      > Now it happened, as I raised my eyes to the place of the height,
      all
      > the archons hated me because I ceased from their mystery, and
      because
      > I wished to go to the height and to make myself above them all. Now
      > on account of these things they were angry with me, and they hated
      > me. But I remained sorrowing, seeking the light which I saw. And
      the
      > archons and all the watchers which were at the gates of the aeons
      > hated me.
      > Then I cried out very much. I cried out to the Light of Lights
      which
      > I had seen from the beginning, in which I had believed, and I
      said :
      > Now it happened, as I raised my eyes to the place of the height,
      all
      > the archons hated me because I ceased from their mystery, and
      because
      > I wished to go to the height and to make myself above them all. Now
      > on account of these things they were angry with me, and they hated
      > me. But I remained sorrowing, seeking the light which I saw. And
      the
      > archons and all the watchers which were at the gates of the aeons
      > hated me.
      > "And then I stretched out my hands and I did not find him as I
      > thought (he would be). But afterward I heard him
      saying, "Understand
      > and take hold of me." Then I understood, and I was afraid. And I
      was
      > exceedingly joyful.
      > "And he kissed my mouth. He took hold of me, saying, "My beloved!
      > Behold, I shall reveal to you those things that (neither) the
      heavens
      > nor their archons have known. Behold, I shall reveal to you those
      > things that he did not know, he who boasted, "[...] there is no
      other
      > except me. Am I not alive? Because I am a father, do I not have
      power
      > for everything?" Behold, I shall reveal to you everything, my
      > beloved. Understand and know them that you may come forth just as I
      > am. Behold, I shall reveal to you him who is hidden.
      > Then I stretched out my hand and took hold of His hand having given
      > it to one lying prone on the ground, He placed me firmly on my
      feet,
      > for I had not yet stood up. He gave me the means of knowing the
      > knowledge of the Father and the revelation of his son. He permitted
      > me to taste and smell and grasp the beloved son.
      > He gave to me from the Water of Life, which strips me of the chaos
      > that is in the uttermost darkness that exists inside the entire
      > abyss, that is, the thought of the corporeal and the psychic. All
      > these He put on. And He stripped me of it, and He put upon me a
      > shining Light, that is, the knowledge of the Thought of the
      > Fatherhood.
      >
      > Barbelo conceived me. The great invisible virginal Spirit begot
      me. "-
      > Bariel, Nouthan, and Sabenai enthroned me from the Throne of
      > Glory. - Ariom, Elien, and Phariel glorified me with the glory
      of
      > the Fatherhood. Kamaliel, [...]anen, and Samblo, snatched me away
      > with the servants of <the> great holy luminaries - and they took me
      > into the light-place of my Fatherhood. And I received the Five
      seals
      > from the Light of the Mother, Protennoia, and it was granted unto
      me
      > to partake of the mystery of knowledge, and I became a Light in
      > Light.
      >
      > From the Unbegotten One, the Begotten one came into being. The
      birth
      > of the Self-Begotten One is through Him-Who-Is, the birth of all
      > begotten things that exist. Illumined and illuminating is the
      whole
      > Place where in dwells Pronoia, the Thought of Light, from whom
      poured
      > forth the living waters out of the living fountains of light,
      hidden
      > within radiant waters, who gradually put forth the All by a
      Thought,
      > who is laden with the Voice; through whom Gnosis comes forth,
      > inviting souls into the exalted, perfect Light. For He discloses
      > mysteries to those [who are worthy] of [His] mysteries and reveals
      > the everlasting things, and all the unknowns become known, and
      those
      > things difficult to interpet and secret, he reveals.
      > And as for those who dwell in Silence with the First Thought, he
      > preaches to them. And he reveals himself to those who dwell in
      > darkness, and he shows himself to those who dwell in the abyss, and
      > to those who dwell in the hidden treasuries, he tells ineffable
      > mysteries, and he teaches unrepeatable doctrines to all those who
      > become Sons of the Light.
      >
      > 1. 'The light has become a crown on my head and I will not be
      (left)
      > without it, so that the emanations of the Authades do not steal it
      > from me.
      > 2. And even if all the materials move, I however will not move.
      > 3. And even if all my materials are destroyed and remain in the
      > Chaos - these which the emanations of the Authades see - I however
      > will not be destroyed.
      > 4. For the light is with me, and I myself am with the light.
      > 3. For it is not like a withered crown which does not sprout; but
      > thou livest upon my head and thou dost sprout upon me. '
      > Let there be light, let there be light! Let there be the light of
      the
      > light of the aeons of light, Truth and incorruptibility of the
      > luminous Epinoia appeared, which came forth from the aeons of
      >
      light.
      > It descended and came to dwell within Adam, and that
      man
      > became a living soul. 'The Light has become a crown on my head, Him-
      > Who-Is is upon my head like a crown and I shall not be without him.
      > Youel plaited for me the true crown , Esephech caused thy branches
      to
      > sprout in me. For it is not like a withered crown which does not
      > sprout; but thou livest upon my head and thou dost sprout upon me.
      > Thy fruits are full and ripe, filled with thy salvation'. Within
      the
      > Epinoia is the throne, and surrounding the Epinoia are glories and
      > incorruptions. And in the heavens and on the earth, and under the
      > earth, [silence, bliss, and glory prevail.]
    • Gerry
      ... it ... and ... so ... Well hello there, Incognito. I wondered where you d disappeared to. As for the seemingly paraphrased post, I think your instincts
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 8, 2003
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, incognito_lightbringer
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > Can you give a source for this? I enjoyed reading it and wondered
        > where you got it from. You titled it "Sethian Gnostic Baptism" but
        it
        > seemed like a composite of several gnostic texts. It paraphrases
        > parts of several Nag Hammadi codices such as Origin of the World
        and
        > The Second Apocalypse of James and the Sophia of Jesus Christ and
        so
        > on (I included these below). It was also similar to parts of Pistis
        > Sophia. There's probably more but those are the ones I recognized.
        >




        Well hello there, Incognito. I wondered where you'd disappeared to.

        As for the seemingly paraphrased post, I think your instincts and
        research are probably right on target. Whenever something like that
        is posted, with neither contextual commentary nor attribution of
        authorship, it's unlikely that you'll ever see a demonstration of its
        provenance from classical sources.

        Considering the subject of this piece in particular, I'm reminded of
        similar ones I've seen dumped at other sites which lead me to believe
        someone is interested in propagating an air of authenticity for their
        own "Sethian Gnostic…" compositions. When such a thing is posted
        here and there, forwarded elsewhere and inevitably referred back to,
        I suppose it eventually gets around to the point that the
        unquestioning take it as genuine. If that assessment is inaccurate,
        I'd love to see someone take responsibility for these works.

        BTW, I finally got around to taping _Vanilla Sky_ a few nights ago,
        but have been holding off on watching it 'til this weekend——Am hoping
        to have my eyes opened!

        Gerry

        P.S. I've been sitting here for a while doing my own sleuthing over
        this question of yours, and now I see you've posted another
        specifically for me. Let me get back to you on that one——Breakfast
        is calling!

        Ger
      • enos benset
        The former post Sethian Gnostic Baptism is a fiction and a quasi-paraphrase of the Mandaean Book of Souls, which can be found in English and Mandaic in
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 8, 2003
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          The former post "Sethian Gnostic Baptism" is a fiction and a quasi-paraphrase of the Mandaean "Book of Souls," which can be found in English and Mandaic in E.S. Drower's "Canonical Prayerbook of the Mandaeans." The paraphrasing is performed by looking up key words in the Mandaean liturgy in a Biblical concordance and on a computer word file of the Nag Hammaddi Codexes, Pistis Sophia, other Gnostic and apocryphal Christian-Jewish texts of antiquity. The phrases of these texts that most resemble the language of the Mandaean liturgy are cut from the texts and modified in their refference points and in ways that would make the fictional text proper in its grammer and syntax. Also, much of the texts were chosen because of their similar themes to that of the Mandaean even though the names of divine beings are of a different system which are Sethian rather than Mandaic.

          The point of this fiction is that it could have some truth since the Sethian Gnostics certainly come from the same religious genre as the Mandaeans from the ancient semetic baptismal sects of the Jordan Valley around the time of Jesus and John the baptist. For instance, there are the sects that the Heresiologist Church fathers speak of as Mazbutwas, Sampseans, Ossenes, Ebionites, Elchasaites etc. There can be observered a similar structure and shared use of much language between the Eucharists and Baptismal liturgies of the various Orthodox and Catholic churches. So it is plausible that the same could be the case with the ist Century A.D Baptismal sects of Palistine from which the Sethians and Mandaeans both derive their legacy. Unfortunately, the Mandaeans are the only sect left that has a Baptismal formula preservered from that particular genre.

           

          CHAPTER 2.

          Illumined and illuminating is Zihrun, the great Mystery of radiance, light and glory,
          from whom Manda-d-Hiia emanated and was
          divulged, and from whose very Self noble sons of the mighty and sublime Life
          proceeded. He created 'uthras at his right and his
          left and installed them in their own shkintas, And they gave out light and were
          effulgent in their own raiment and gloried in the
          knowledge that their Father had transplanted them from the House of Life. And it is
          incumbent on a pupil to honour his Master
          like his parents, (so) the 'uthras rose on (their ?) thrones of radiance, light and
          glory and took off the crowns on their heads and
          placed them on the thrones of radiance, light and glory, saying, "A teacher is
          superior to parents! Rise, our Father, in praise, and
          lay on me Thy hand of truth and Thy great right hand of healings!" And Life be
          praised!

          [This prayer is the opening prayer of "In the name of that First Being"]

          My Lord be praised!

          In the name of the Great First Other-Worldly Life! From far-off worlds of light that
          are above all works may there be healing,
          victory, soundness, speech and a hearing, joy of heart and forgiving of sins for me,
          Adam-Yuhana son of Mahnus through the
          strength of Yawar-Ziwa and Simat-Hiia!

          CHAPTER 1.

          In the name of the Life and in the name of Knowledge-of-Life (Manda-d-Hiia) and
          in the name of that Primal Being who was
          Eldest and preceded water, radiance, light and glory, the Being who cried with His
          voice and uttered words. By means of His
          voice and His words Vines grew and came into being, and the First Life was
          established in its Abode.

          And He spoke and said, "The First Life is anterior to the Second Life by six
          thousand myriad years and the Second Life anterior
          to the Third Life by six thousand myriad years and the Third Life more ancient than
          any 'uthra by six thousand myriad years.
          And any 'uthra is older than the whole earth and older than the Seven Lords of the
          House by seven hundred and seventy
          thousand myriad years. There is that which is infinite.

          At that time there was no solid earth and no inhabitants in the black waters. From
          them, from those black waters, Evil was
          formed and emerged, One from whom a thousand thousand mysteries proceeded
          and a myriad myriad planets with their own
          mysteries.

          The Seven were wroth with me, were outraged and said, "The man who set out and
          came towards us hath not bound a circlet
          about his head!" Then I turned my face toward my Creator who created me, the
          celestial Lord of Greatness, and I said to Him, "O
          my Creator who created me, (O) Lord of lofty Greatness! As I went (my ways) the
          Seven were wroth with me and said, 'The
          man who went and came towards us hath not bound a circlet about his head!'."

          Then that Lord of Lofty Greatness took a circlet of radiance, light and glory and set
          it on my head; He laid on me His hand of
          Truth and His great right hand of healings and said to me, "Upon thee shall rest
          something of the likeness of Sam-Gufna and of
          Sam-Gufaian and of Sam-Pira-Hiwara, whose radiance gleams and whose
          appearance beams, for they are holy and believing
          beings in the Place of Light and in the everlasting Abode."

          And Manda-d-Hiia, the valorous 'uthra, taught, revealed and said "Every Nasoraean
          man who is righteous and believing, on
          arising from sleep, must take a white turban symbolising the great mystery of
          radiance, fight and glory and shall recite this prayer
          thereon. And he shall twist it round his head and repeat the prayer secretly. It will
          be his praise in the house of the great Celestial
          Father. And all persons who behold him will be subdued in his presence: any
          persecutor, or one who inciteth to wrath, will stand
          before him in fear, terror and trembling, (their knees) knocking together. And for
          me, Adam-Yuhana son of Mahnus, who have
          prayed this prayer and (these) devotions, there will be forgiving of sins and I shall
          be pure in all my words. And Life is victorious.
          [This is the prayer of the turban].
          CHAPTER 3.

          In the name of the Life!

          Life created Yawar-Ziwa, son of Light-of-Life, Hamgai-Ziwa son of Hamgagai-Ziwa.
          Illumined and illuminating is the Great
          Mystery of Radiance, Zihrun, a Crown of radiance, light and glory from whom a flow
          of living water streamed out to the
          shkintas. For he is the revealer (lit. opener) of radiance and light and displayeth
          his treasure which emanated from him, to eager
          'uthras. All worlds adore and praise the mighty First Life in its Indwellings, and Life
          is victorious.

          [This is the prayer of the turban]

          CHAPTER 5.

          In the name of the Great Life!

          Let there be light, let there be light! Let there be the light of the Great First Life!
          There shone forth wisdom, vigilance and praise
          of the First Mana which came from its place. He who twineth the wreath is
          Yufin-Yufafin: the bringer of the wreath is
          'It-'Nsibat-'utria. 'It-Yawar son of 'Nsibat-'utria set on the wreath. He brought it and
          placed it upon the head of the implanted
          mana which was transplanted from guarded (?) manas. The wreath flames and the
          leaves of the wreath flame! Before the Mana
          there is light, behind the Mana glory, and at either side of the Mana radiance,
          brilliance and purity. And at the four corners of the
          House and the seven sides of the firmanent silence, bliss and glory prevail (lit. are
          found). And Life be praised!

          [This is the prayer for the turban. Read it and set it on thy head.]

          CHAPTER 19.

          Manda created me, 'uthras set me up, radiance clothed me and light covered me:
          Haza-zban set the wreath on my head, mine,
          Adam-Yuhana , son of Mahnush, and on these souls who descend to the jordan
          and are baptised. Its tendrils shine and its
          perfume is sweet, for they (the tendrils) wither not nor do they come apart, and its
          leaves do not fall off.

          And Life be praised! [This is the set prayer for the baptism wreath. Recite it over
          the myrtle-wreath and place it on the heads of the souls that thou baptisest].



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        • enos benset
          The former post Sethian Gnostic Baptism is a fiction and a quasi-paraphrase of the Mandaean Book of Souls, which can be found in English and Mandaic in
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 8, 2003
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            The former post "Sethian Gnostic Baptism" is a fiction and a quasi-paraphrase of the Mandaean "Book of Souls," which can be found in English and Mandaic in E.S. Drower's "Canonical Prayerbook of the Mandaeans." The paraphrasing is performed by looking up key words in the Mandaean liturgy in a Biblical concordance and on a computer word file of the Nag Hammaddi Codexes, Pistis Sophia, other Gnostic and apocryphal Christian-Jewish texts of antiquity. The phrases of these texts that most resemble the language of the Mandaean liturgy are cut from the texts and modified in their refference points and in ways that would make the fictional text proper in its grammer and syntax. Also, much of the texts were chosen because of their similar themes to that of the Mandaean even though the names of divine beings are of a different system which are Sethian rather than Mandaic.

            The point of this fiction is that it could have some truth since the Sethian Gnostics certainly come from the same religious genre as the Mandaeans from the ancient semetic baptismal sects of the Jordan Valley around the time of Jesus and John the baptist. For instance, there are the sects that the Heresiologist Church fathers speak of as Mazbutwas, Sampseans, Ossenes, Ebionites, Elchasaites etc. There can be observered a similar structure and shared use of much language between the Eucharists and Baptismal liturgies of the various Orthodox and Catholic churches. So it is plausible that the same could be the case with the ist Century A.D Baptismal sects of Palistine from which the Sethians and Mandaeans both derive their legacy. Unfortunately, the Mandaeans are the only sect left that has a Baptismal formula preservered from that particular genre.

             

            CHAPTER 2.

            Illumined and illuminating is Zihrun, the great Mystery of radiance, light and glory,
            from whom Manda-d-Hiia emanated and was
            divulged, and from whose very Self noble sons of the mighty and sublime Life
            proceeded. He created 'uthras at his right and his
            left and installed them in their own shkintas, And they gave out light and were
            effulgent in their own raiment and gloried in the
            knowledge that their Father had transplanted them from the House of Life. And it is
            incumbent on a pupil to honour his Master
            like his parents, (so) the 'uthras rose on (their ?) thrones of radiance, light and
            glory and took off the crowns on their heads and
            placed them on the thrones of radiance, light and glory, saying, "A teacher is
            superior to parents! Rise, our Father, in praise, and
            lay on me Thy hand of truth and Thy great right hand of healings!" And Life be
            praised!

            [This prayer is the opening prayer of "In the name of that First Being"]

            My Lord be praised!

            In the name of the Great First Other-Worldly Life! From far-off worlds of light that
            are above all works may there be healing,
            victory, soundness, speech and a hearing, joy of heart and forgiving of sins for me,
            Adam-Yuhana son of Mahnus through the
            strength of Yawar-Ziwa and Simat-Hiia!

            CHAPTER 1.

            In the name of the Life and in the name of Knowledge-of-Life (Manda-d-Hiia) and
            in the name of that Primal Being who was
            Eldest and preceded water, radiance, light and glory, the Being who cried with His
            voice and uttered words. By means of His
            voice and His words Vines grew and came into being, and the First Life was
            established in its Abode.

            And He spoke and said, "The First Life is anterior to the Second Life by six
            thousand myriad years and the Second Life anterior
            to the Third Life by six thousand myriad years and the Third Life more ancient than
            any 'uthra by six thousand myriad years.
            And any 'uthra is older than the whole earth and older than the Seven Lords of the
            House by seven hundred and seventy
            thousand myriad years. There is that which is infinite.

            At that time there was no solid earth and no inhabitants in the black waters. From
            them, from those black waters, Evil was
            formed and emerged, One from whom a thousand thousand mysteries proceeded
            and a myriad myriad planets with their own
            mysteries.

            The Seven were wroth with me, were outraged and said, "The man who set out and
            came towards us hath not bound a circlet
            about his head!" Then I turned my face toward my Creator who created me, the
            celestial Lord of Greatness, and I said to Him, "O
            my Creator who created me, (O) Lord of lofty Greatness! As I went (my ways) the
            Seven were wroth with me and said, 'The
            man who went and came towards us hath not bound a circlet about his head!'."

            Then that Lord of Lofty Greatness took a circlet of radiance, light and glory and set
            it on my head; He laid on me His hand of
            Truth and His great right hand of healings and said to me, "Upon thee shall rest
            something of the likeness of Sam-Gufna and of
            Sam-Gufaian and of Sam-Pira-Hiwara, whose radiance gleams and whose
            appearance beams, for they are holy and believing
            beings in the Place of Light and in the everlasting Abode."

            And Manda-d-Hiia, the valorous 'uthra, taught, revealed and said "Every Nasoraean
            man who is righteous and believing, on
            arising from sleep, must take a white turban symbolising the great mystery of
            radiance, fight and glory and shall recite this prayer
            thereon. And he shall twist it round his head and repeat the prayer secretly. It will
            be his praise in the house of the great Celestial
            Father. And all persons who behold him will be subdued in his presence: any
            persecutor, or one who inciteth to wrath, will stand
            before him in fear, terror and trembling, (their knees) knocking together. And for
            me, Adam-Yuhana son of Mahnus, who have
            prayed this prayer and (these) devotions, there will be forgiving of sins and I shall
            be pure in all my words. And Life is victorious.
            [This is the prayer of the turban].
            CHAPTER 3.

            In the name of the Life!

            Life created Yawar-Ziwa, son of Light-of-Life, Hamgai-Ziwa son of Hamgagai-Ziwa.
            Illumined and illuminating is the Great
            Mystery of Radiance, Zihrun, a Crown of radiance, light and glory from whom a flow
            of living water streamed out to the
            shkintas. For he is the revealer (lit. opener) of radiance and light and displayeth
            his treasure which emanated from him, to eager
            'uthras. All worlds adore and praise the mighty First Life in its Indwellings, and Life
            is victorious.

            [This is the prayer of the turban]

            CHAPTER 5.

            In the name of the Great Life!

            Let there be light, let there be light! Let there be the light of the Great First Life!
            There shone forth wisdom, vigilance and praise
            of the First Mana which came from its place. He who twineth the wreath is
            Yufin-Yufafin: the bringer of the wreath is
            'It-'Nsibat-'utria. 'It-Yawar son of 'Nsibat-'utria set on the wreath. He brought it and
            placed it upon the head of the implanted
            mana which was transplanted from guarded (?) manas. The wreath flames and the
            leaves of the wreath flame! Before the Mana
            there is light, behind the Mana glory, and at either side of the Mana radiance,
            brilliance and purity. And at the four corners of the
            House and the seven sides of the firmanent silence, bliss and glory prevail (lit. are
            found). And Life be praised!

            [This is the prayer for the turban. Read it and set it on thy head.]

            CHAPTER 19.

            Manda created me, 'uthras set me up, radiance clothed me and light covered me:
            Haza-zban set the wreath on my head, mine,
            Adam-Yuhana , son of Mahnush, and on these souls who descend to the jordan
            and are baptised. Its tendrils shine and its
            perfume is sweet, for they (the tendrils) wither not nor do they come apart, and its
            leaves do not fall off.

            And Life be praised! [This is the set prayer for the baptism wreath. Recite it over
            the myrtle-wreath and place it on the heads of the souls that thou baptisest].

             



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          • Gerry
            Reply to post #7262 by Enos Benset: Ahhh, thank you for that, Enos. That wasn t so hard, was it?! ;-) For those wishing to pursue their own investigation,
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 8, 2003
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              Reply to post #7262 by Enos Benset:

               

               

              Ahhh, thank you for that, Enos.  That wasn’t so hard, was it?!  ;-)  For those wishing to pursue their own investigation, that additional information is surely more constructive than just dropping off an apparent scriptural quotation without so much as a “hello” or “how are you,” not to mention some sort of citation.

               

              As we’ve really only had minimal discussion of Mandaeans here, did you find any startling revelations in Drower’s work?  Just wondering to what extent you’d recommend it to others.

               

              Gerry

               

               

            • enos benset
              As for the Mandaean tradition, the reciting of the English stanza transelated from Mandaic have, when done properly, been followed by an experience of the
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 11, 2003
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                As for the Mandaean tradition, the reciting of the English stanza transelated from Mandaic have, when done properly, been followed by an experience of the Sublime alternative to sleep paralysis, a sort of lucid dream with the voices of an angel or uthra, sublime being.

                The trick is to start with the most alienating sort of stanza about lonelyness, isolation, homesickness, dying ect. It's a sort of verbal aceticism; raising up feelings of alienation.

                Then, once there is the self-realization that one does not belong to the cosmos with all its suffering and indifference, one can reach out and petition the source of one's own being in spirit. One must call for an answer from the source.

                In the Name of the first great Life, from worlds of Light; the Sublime One that stands above all works.
                I am a Mana of the great Life, a Mana of the Mighty Life am I. A Mana I am of the great Life: who has made me to live in the terrestrial world.
                In the tibil (dust?) who has made me to dwell, who has cast me into the bodily trunk? Who has cast me into the stump which has no hands nor feet? It has no hands nor feet, and knows not how it should walk.It lies there and crawls, and has no strength.
                Why did they call me from my place and bring me hither and cast me into the stump?
                A Mana am I of the great Life; who has throm me into the suffering worlds? Who has transported me to the evil darkness?
                So long I endure and dwell in the world, so long I dwell among the works of my hands.
                Grief and war I suffer in the body garment into which they transported and cast me. How often must I put it off; How often must I put it on; must ever again settle my strife and not behold Life in Its Highest Habitation: aworld of light without darkness, a world of mildness without rebellion, a world of righteousness without decay and death, a world of goodness without evil.
                O How shall I rejoice then who am now afflicted and afraid in the dwelling of the evil ones? O How shall my heart rejoice outside the works which I have made in this world?
                How long shall I wonder and how long sink within all the worlds?.....
                A Vine am I, a lonely one that stands in the world. I have no sublime planter, no keeper, no mild helper to come and instruct me about everything.
                The seven opress me; the twelve became my persecution.
                The First Life has forgotten me; the second does not inquire after me.
                My eyes which were opened from the Place of Light, now belong to the stump. My heart which longs for the Life came here and was made part of the stump.
                My mind, a treasure in which the Life resides, has been housed here in bodily clothes.
                My feet were planted by chosen planters. Now they must wonder the path of the stump.
                It is the path of the stump. The seven will not let me go my own way.
                How must I obey?
                How must I endure?
                How must I quite my mind?....
                How must I hear the seven and the twelve mysteries?....
                How must I groan?
                How must my mild Paren't word dwell among the creatures of the dark? 
                 


                ALIEN CONCEPT IN GNOSTICISM

                The alien is that which stems from elsewhere and does not belong here. To those who do belong here it is thus the strange, the unfamiliar and incomprehensible; but their world on its part is just as incomprehensible to the alien that comes to dwell here, and like a foreign land where it is far from home. Then it suffers the lot of the stranger who is lonely, unprotected, uncomprehended, and uncomprehending in a situation full of danger. Anguish and homesickness are a part of the stranger�s lot. The stranger who does not know the ways of the foreign land wanders about lost; if he learns its ways too well, he forgets that he is a stranger and gets lost in a different sense by succumbing to the lure of the alien world and becoming estranged from his own origin. Then he has become a "son of the house." This too is part of the alien�s fate. In his alienation from himself the distress has gone, but this very fact is the culmination of the stranger�s tragedy. The recollection of his own alieness, the recognition of his place of exile for what it is, is the first step back; the awakened home sickness is the beginning of the return. All this belongs to the "suffering" side of alienness. Yet with relation to its origin it is at the same time a mark of excellence, a source of power and of a secret life unknown to the environment and in the last resort impregnable to it, as it is incomprehensible to the creatures of this world. This superiority of the alien, which distinguishes it even here, though secretly, is its manifest glory in its own native realm, which is outside this world. In such position the alien is the remote, the inaccessible, and its strangeness means majesty. Thus the alien taken absolutely is the wholly transcendent, the "beyond" and an eminent attribute of God.
                ------ Hans Jonas "The Gnostic Religion"

                 Gerry <gerryhsp@...> wrote:

                 

                Reply to post #7262 by Enos Benset:

                 

                 

                Ahhh, thank you for that, Enos.  That wasn�t so hard, was it?!  ;-)  For those wishing to pursue their own investigation, that additional information is surely more constructive than just dropping off an apparent scriptural quotation without so much as a �hello� or �how are you,� not to mention some sort of citation.

                 

                As we�ve really only had minimal discussion of Mandaeans here, did you find any startling revelations in Drower�s work?  Just wondering to what extent you�d recommend it to others.

                 

                Gerry

                 

                 



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              • ernststrohregenmantelrad
                IMHO, I don t think Mandeanas are Gnostics in the present guise. ... transelated from Mandaic have, when done properly, been followed by an experience of the
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 12, 2003
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                  IMHO, I don't think Mandeanas are Gnostics in the present guise.

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, enos benset <enosbnst@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > As for the Mandaean tradition, the reciting of the English stanza
                  transelated from Mandaic have, when done properly, been followed by an
                  experience of the Sublime alternative to sleep paralysis, a sort of lucid
                  dream with the voices of an angel or uthra, sublime being.
                  > The trick is to start with the most alienating sort of stanza about
                  lonelyness, isolation, homesickness, dying ect. It's a sort of verbal
                  aceticism; raising up feelings of alienation.
                  > Then, once there is the self-realization that one does not belong to the
                  cosmos with all its suffering and indifference, one can reach out and
                  petition the source of one's own being in spirit. One must call for an
                  answer from the source.
                  > In the Name of the first great Life, from worlds of Light; the Sublime
                  One that stands above all works.
                  > I am a Mana of the great Life, a Mana of the Mighty Life am I. A Mana I
                  am of the great Life: who has made me to live in the terrestrial world.
                  > In the tibil (dust?) who has made me to dwell, who has cast me into the
                  bodily trunk? Who has cast me into the stump which has no hands nor
                  feet? It has no hands nor feet, and knows not how it should walk.It lies
                  there and crawls, and has no strength.
                  > Why did they call me from my place and bring me hither and cast me
                  into the stump?
                  > A Mana am I of the great Life; who has throm me into the suffering
                  worlds? Who has transported me to the evil darkness?
                  > So long I endure and dwell in the world, so long I dwell among the works
                  of my hands.
                  > Grief and war I suffer in the body garment into which they transported
                  and cast me. How often must I put it off; How often must I put it on; must
                  ever again settle my strife and not behold Life in Its Highest Habitation:
                  aworld of light without darkness, a world of mildness without rebellion, a
                  world of righteousness without decay and death, a world of goodness
                  without evil.
                  > O How shall I rejoice then who am now afflicted and afraid in the
                  dwelling of the evil ones? O How shall my heart rejoice outside the works
                  which I have made in this world?
                  > How long shall I wonder and how long sink within all the worlds?.....
                  > A Vine am I, a lonely one that stands in the world. I have no sublime
                  planter, no keeper, no mild helper to come and instruct me about
                  everything.
                  > The seven opress me; the twelve became my persecution.
                  > The First Life has forgotten me; the second does not inquire after me.
                  > My eyes which were opened from the Place of Light, now belong to the
                  stump. My heart which longs for the Life came here and was made part of
                  the stump.
                  > My mind, a treasure in which the Life resides, has been housed here in
                  bodily clothes.
                  > My feet were planted by chosen planters. Now they must wonder the
                  path of the stump.
                  > It is the path of the stump. The seven will not let me go my own way.
                  > How must I obey?
                  > How must I endure?
                  > How must I quite my mind?....
                  > How must I hear the seven and the twelve mysteries?....
                  > How must I groan?
                  > How must my mild Paren't word dwell among the creatures of the dark?
                  >
                  >
                  > ALIEN CONCEPT IN GNOSTICISM
                  > The alien is that which stems from elsewhere and does not belong here.
                  To those who do belong here it is thus the strange, the unfamiliar and
                  incomprehensible; but their world on its part is just as incomprehensible
                  to the alien that comes to dwell here, and like a foreign land where it is far
                  from home. Then it suffers the lot of the stranger who is lonely,
                  unprotected, uncomprehended, and uncomprehending in a situation full
                  of danger. Anguish and homesickness are a part of the stranger's lot. The
                  stranger who does not know the ways of the foreign land wanders about
                  lost; if he learns its ways too well, he forgets that he is a stranger and
                  gets lost in a different sense by succumbing to the lure of the alien world
                  and becoming estranged from his own origin. Then he has become a "son
                  of the house." This too is part of the alien's fate. In his alienation from
                  himself the distress has gone, but this very fact is the culmination of the
                  stranger's tragedy. The recollection of his own alieness, the recognition
                  of his place of exile for what it is, is the first step back; the awakened
                  home sickness is the beginning of the return. All this belongs to the
                  "suffering" side of alienness. Yet with relation to its origin it is at the same
                  time a mark of excellence, a source of power and of a secret life unknown
                  to the environment and in the last resort impregnable to it, as it is
                  incomprehensible to the creatures of this world. This superiority of the
                  alien, which distinguishes it even here, though secretly, is its manifest
                  glory in its own native realm, which is outside this world. In such position
                  the alien is the remote, the inaccessible, and its strangeness means
                  majesty. Thus the alien taken absolutely is the wholly transcendent, the
                  "beyond" and an eminent attribute of God.
                  > ------ Hans Jonas "The Gnostic Religion"
                  >
                  >
                  > Gerry <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Reply to post #7262 by Enos Benset:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Ahhh, thank you for that, Enos. That wasn't so hard, was it?! ;-) For
                  those wishing to pursue their own investigation, that additional
                  information is surely more constructive than just dropping off an
                  apparent scriptural quotation without so much as a "hello or "how are you,
                  not to mention some sort of citation.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > As we've really only had minimal discussion of Mandaeans here, did you
                  find any startling revelations in Drower's work? Just wondering to what
                  extent you'd recommend it to others.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Gerry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                • lady_caritas
                  ... Ernst, would you care to expand on this statement? Cari
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 13, 2003
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                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ernststrohregenmantelrad
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > IMHO, I don't think Mandeanas are Gnostics in the present guise.


                    Ernst, would you care to expand on this statement?

                    Cari
                  • incognito_lightbringer
                    Hi Gerry, I ve been busy. Did you manage to rent The Saragossa Manuscript? And try to find No Such Thing out on video/DVD late last year. Also, can t
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 21, 2003
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                      Hi Gerry, I've been busy.
                      Did you manage to rent The Saragossa Manuscript?
                      And try to find "No Such Thing" out on video/DVD late last year.
                      Also, can't remember if I mentioned Hedwig and the Angry Inch.
                      We've to do a gnostic music post sometime. We can start with David
                      Bowie and Ziggy Stardust.
                      One of these days I've got to compose my own Gnostic composition and
                      put it out there without attribution, just to see if it rocks any
                      boats ;)

                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, incognito_lightbringer
                      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > > Can you give a source for this? I enjoyed reading it and wondered
                      > > where you got it from. You titled it "Sethian Gnostic Baptism"
                      but
                      > it
                      > > seemed like a composite of several gnostic texts. It paraphrases
                      > > parts of several Nag Hammadi codices such as Origin of the World
                      > and
                      > > The Second Apocalypse of James and the Sophia of Jesus Christ and
                      > so
                      > > on (I included these below). It was also similar to parts of
                      Pistis
                      > > Sophia. There's probably more but those are the ones I recognized.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Well hello there, Incognito. I wondered where you'd disappeared to.
                      >
                      > As for the seemingly paraphrased post, I think your instincts and
                      > research are probably right on target. Whenever something like
                      that
                      > is posted, with neither contextual commentary nor attribution of
                      > authorship, it's unlikely that you'll ever see a demonstration of
                      its
                      > provenance from classical sources.
                      >
                      > Considering the subject of this piece in particular, I'm reminded
                      of
                      > similar ones I've seen dumped at other sites which lead me to
                      believe
                      > someone is interested in propagating an air of authenticity for
                      their
                      > own "Sethian Gnostic…" compositions. When such a thing is posted
                      > here and there, forwarded elsewhere and inevitably referred back
                      to,
                      > I suppose it eventually gets around to the point that the
                      > unquestioning take it as genuine. If that assessment is
                      inaccurate,
                      > I'd love to see someone take responsibility for these works.
                      >
                      > BTW, I finally got around to taping _Vanilla Sky_ a few nights ago,
                      > but have been holding off on watching it 'til this weekend——Am
                      hoping
                      > to have my eyes opened!
                      >
                      > Gerry
                      >
                      > P.S. I've been sitting here for a while doing my own sleuthing
                      over
                      > this question of yours, and now I see you've posted another
                      > specifically for me. Let me get back to you on that one——Breakfast
                      > is calling!
                      >
                      > Ger
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