Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: "Gnostics" and love relationships

Expand Messages
  • pmcvflag
    ... many Gnostics (if there is such a thing) do not, and would disagree with me imphatically.
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 28, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      >>I really believe in the value of love relationships, though
      many "Gnostics" (if there is such a thing) do not, and would disagree
      with me imphatically.<<
      >
      >
      > Hello, PMCV. Would you care to expand on your above comments?
      >
      > Cari

      Sure thing Lady C :)

      First, to answer the exchange between you and Mike; I use the
      term "many" not only so as not to pick on any particular person here,
      but also because the impression that Klaus in particular has been
      expressing in here is a common perception that modern would be
      Gnostics have of traditional Gnosticism (so I assume that Klaus is
      not the only person here who feels that way, just the only one who is
      expressing it).

      Of course, this idea of Gnosticism comes to us from the polemicists,
      not the Gnostics themselves. This means that the severe ascetic
      attitude is more often a matter of a modern person recreating
      something based on external impressions of those who disagreed with
      the movements in question. A rough analogy would be something like if
      I was an anti-abortionist, who wrote a book attacking the Democratic
      party in the US for it's "liberalism". I Might write something
      like "those libertine Democrats are all having sex, even when they
      are in the Oval Office they disrespect it's sanctity. Then, they
      disrespect the life they bring into the world, and kill thier own
      offspring!"

      Now, a person reading this in a thousand years may say, "hey, I want
      to be a Democrat, so I am going to create an oval building and
      sacrifice children in it". They would not uncerstand that the
      inferrence is of abortion, and that not all Democrats agree with the
      implications of the polemic against them.

      Well, the ascetic impulse is often just the inverse of
      this "Democrat" example. Some polemicists takes some rather harsh
      sounding liturature, accuses Gnostics of castrating themselves and
      hating the world, and "viola!", we have modern people attempting to
      recreate "Gnosticism" by self rightiously proclaiming thier hatred of
      anything they believe smacks of "worldliness". BUT...... this
      impression is probably unrelated to the actual beliefs and practices
      of the historical groups as a whole.

      I can't remember, Lady C, if it was you or Gerry who told me this
      story (can't remember the particulars so I'm telling my own
      version ;))....

      A couple of monks were travelling to thier monestary, when they
      happened upon a small river. As they came up to the river they
      noticed a lady on the bank who was unable to cross (for some reason
      or another) and was calling for help. The monks walked up to the
      lady, who looked at the younger one and asked if he would mind taking
      her across. He thought to himself for a moment about his vows, and
      said "I'm sorry, we monks are not allowed to touch a woman!! I must
      refuse!" The older monk though said "never fear, climb on my back and
      I will take you to the other side". After dropping the woman off, the
      two monks went on thier way, but some time later the young monk said
      to the older one "I cant believe you brother!". "What?" said the
      older monk. "Well" said the young one, "You touched that woman!". The
      older monk replied "Oh yeah, I had forgotton." The younger monk was
      upset, and asked the older monk to explain his behavior. "Well," said
      the older monk "the real problem is, I put the woman down an hour ago
      and you have not."

      As far as the value of romance, I would send that conversation over
      to the club in this URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/philosophia2/

      PMCV
    • Gerry <gerryhsp@yahoo.com>
      ... disagree ... here, ... is ... polemicists, ... if ... Democratic ... want ... the ... of ... practices ... Nope---didn t come from me, but it certainly
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 28, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > >>I really believe in the value of love relationships, though
        > many "Gnostics" (if there is such a thing) do not, and would
        disagree
        > with me imphatically.<<
        > >
        > >
        > > Hello, PMCV. Would you care to expand on your above comments?
        > >
        > > Cari
        >
        > Sure thing Lady C :)
        >
        > First, to answer the exchange between you and Mike; I use the
        > term "many" not only so as not to pick on any particular person
        here,
        > but also because the impression that Klaus in particular has been
        > expressing in here is a common perception that modern would be
        > Gnostics have of traditional Gnosticism (so I assume that Klaus is
        > not the only person here who feels that way, just the only one who
        is
        > expressing it).
        >
        > Of course, this idea of Gnosticism comes to us from the
        polemicists,
        > not the Gnostics themselves. This means that the severe ascetic
        > attitude is more often a matter of a modern person recreating
        > something based on external impressions of those who disagreed with
        > the movements in question. A rough analogy would be something like
        if
        > I was an anti-abortionist, who wrote a book attacking the
        Democratic
        > party in the US for it's "liberalism". I Might write something
        > like "those libertine Democrats are all having sex, even when they
        > are in the Oval Office they disrespect it's sanctity. Then, they
        > disrespect the life they bring into the world, and kill thier own
        > offspring!"
        >
        > Now, a person reading this in a thousand years may say, "hey, I
        want
        > to be a Democrat, so I am going to create an oval building and
        > sacrifice children in it". They would not uncerstand that the
        > inferrence is of abortion, and that not all Democrats agree with
        the
        > implications of the polemic against them.
        >
        > Well, the ascetic impulse is often just the inverse of
        > this "Democrat" example. Some polemicists takes some rather harsh
        > sounding liturature, accuses Gnostics of castrating themselves and
        > hating the world, and "viola!", we have modern people attempting to
        > recreate "Gnosticism" by self rightiously proclaiming thier hatred
        of
        > anything they believe smacks of "worldliness". BUT...... this
        > impression is probably unrelated to the actual beliefs and
        practices
        > of the historical groups as a whole.
        >
        > I can't remember, Lady C, if it was you or Gerry who told me this
        > story (can't remember the particulars so I'm telling my own
        > version ;))....



        Nope---didn't come from me, but it certainly makes the point.
        Whether we're talking about a person's action or inaction with
        regards to worldly affairs, I think that the person's intentions are
        of prime importance. After all, one can be as much a slave to
        disdain as to indulgence.

        Gerry
      • lady_caritas
        ... is ... who ... with ... like ... they ... and ... to ... hatred ... are ... Didn t come from me either, PMCV, ... I don t think. Hmmm, maybe Gerry s alter
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 29, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry <gerryhsp@y...>"
          <gerryhsp@y...> wrote:
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > >>I really believe in the value of love relationships, though
          > > many "Gnostics" (if there is such a thing) do not, and would
          > disagree
          > > with me imphatically.<<
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hello, PMCV. Would you care to expand on your above comments?
          > > >
          > > > Cari
          > >
          > > Sure thing Lady C :)
          > >
          > > First, to answer the exchange between you and Mike; I use the
          > > term "many" not only so as not to pick on any particular person
          > here,
          > > but also because the impression that Klaus in particular has been
          > > expressing in here is a common perception that modern would be
          > > Gnostics have of traditional Gnosticism (so I assume that Klaus
          is
          > > not the only person here who feels that way, just the only one
          who
          > is
          > > expressing it).
          > >
          > > Of course, this idea of Gnosticism comes to us from the
          > polemicists,
          > > not the Gnostics themselves. This means that the severe ascetic
          > > attitude is more often a matter of a modern person recreating
          > > something based on external impressions of those who disagreed
          with
          > > the movements in question. A rough analogy would be something
          like
          > if
          > > I was an anti-abortionist, who wrote a book attacking the
          > Democratic
          > > party in the US for it's "liberalism". I Might write something
          > > like "those libertine Democrats are all having sex, even when
          they
          > > are in the Oval Office they disrespect it's sanctity. Then, they
          > > disrespect the life they bring into the world, and kill thier own
          > > offspring!"
          > >
          > > Now, a person reading this in a thousand years may say, "hey, I
          > want
          > > to be a Democrat, so I am going to create an oval building and
          > > sacrifice children in it". They would not uncerstand that the
          > > inferrence is of abortion, and that not all Democrats agree with
          > the
          > > implications of the polemic against them.
          > >
          > > Well, the ascetic impulse is often just the inverse of
          > > this "Democrat" example. Some polemicists takes some rather harsh
          > > sounding liturature, accuses Gnostics of castrating themselves
          and
          > > hating the world, and "viola!", we have modern people attempting
          to
          > > recreate "Gnosticism" by self rightiously proclaiming thier
          hatred
          > of
          > > anything they believe smacks of "worldliness". BUT...... this
          > > impression is probably unrelated to the actual beliefs and
          > practices
          > > of the historical groups as a whole.
          > >
          > > I can't remember, Lady C, if it was you or Gerry who told me this
          > > story (can't remember the particulars so I'm telling my own
          > > version ;))....
          >
          >
          >
          > Nope---didn't come from me, but it certainly makes the point.
          > Whether we're talking about a person's action or inaction with
          > regards to worldly affairs, I think that the person's intentions
          are
          > of prime importance. After all, one can be as much a slave to
          > disdain as to indulgence.
          >
          > Gerry


          Didn't come from me either, PMCV, ... I don't think. Hmmm, maybe
          Gerry's alter ego? J/K, Ger. ;-)

          Anyway, PMCV, you do give an excellent illustration of what happens
          when a person's focus inadvertently becomes that which he/she is
          trying to avoid. Fact is, we're humans, and as such, we interpret
          the divine through our human mind and senses. Without promoting one
          lifestyle over another, I would think though that too much
          concentration on extreme worldly practices could sometimes have the
          effect of diminishing a focus on gnosis.

          Cari
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.