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Reincarnation

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  • incognito_lightbringer
    Found at least one website that tries to explain the differences between the various terms. COLLATION OF THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARIES Compiled by Scott J. Osterhage
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 22, 2002
      Found at least one website that tries to explain the differences
      between the various terms.

      COLLATION OF THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARIES
      Compiled by Scott J. Osterhage

      http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/ctg-hp.htm
      http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/reincar/re-selec.htm

      TG Reincarnation. The doctrine of rebirth, believed in by Jesus and
      the Apostles, as by all men in those days, but denied now by the
      Christians. All the Egyptian converts to Christianity, Church Fathers
      and others, believed in this doctrine, as shown by the writings of
      several. In the still existing symbols, the human-headed bird flying
      towards a mummy, a body, or "the soul uniting itself with its sahou
      (glorified body of the Ego, and also the kamalokic shell) proves this
      belief. "The song of the Resurrection chanted by Isis to recall her
      dead husband to life, might be translated Song of Rebirth", as Osiris
      is collective Humanity. "Oh! Osiris [here follows the name of the
      Osirified mummy, or the departed], rise again in holy earth (matter),
      august mummy in the coffin, under thy corporeal substances", was the
      funeral prayer of the priest over the deceased. "Resurrection" with
      the Egyptians never meant the resurrection of the mutilated mummy,
      but of the Soul that informed it, the Ego in a new body. The putting
      on of flesh periodically by the Soul or the Ego, was a universal
      belief; nor can anything be more consonant with justice and Karmic
      law. (See "Pre-existence".)

      KT Reincarnation, or Re-birth; the once universal doctrine, which
      taught that the Ego is born on this earth an innumerable number of
      times. Now-a-days it is denied by Christians, who seem to
      misunderstand the teachings of their own gospels. Nevertheless, the
      putting on of flesh periodically and throughout long cycles by the
      higher human Soul (Buddhi-Manas) or Ego is taught in the Bible as it
      is in all other ancient scriptures, and "resurrection" means only the
      rebirth of the Ego in another form. (Vide Theos. Gloss.)

      WGa Reincarnation, rebirth of the soul into human bodies. The oldest
      belief of the world, viz., that the Soul or Ego of man has lived on
      Earth many times previously to the present life, and will be reborn,
      or incarnated again, many times in the future, before the full
      experience attainable on this planet has been gathered, Not to bee
      confounded with transmigration however, for which it is often
      mistaken. See Metempsychosis.

      OG Reincarnation -- An anglicized word of Latin derivation,
      meaning "reinfleshment," the coming again into a human body of an
      excarnate human soul. The repetitive reimbodiment of the
      reincarnating human ego in vehicles of human flesh -- this being a
      special case of the general doctrine of reimbodiment. This general
      doctrine of reimbodiment applies not solely to man, but to all
      centers of consciousness whatsoever, or to all monads whatsoever --
      wheresoever they may be on the evolutionary ladder of life, and
      whatsoever may be their particular developmental grade thereon. The
      meaning of this general doctrine is very simple indeed. It is as
      follows: every life-consciousness-center, in other words, every monad
      or monadic essence, reincorporates itself repeatedly in various
      vehicles or bodies, to use the popular word. These bodies may be
      spiritual, or they may be physical, or they may be of a nature
      intermediate between these two, i.e., ethereal. This rule of nature,
      which applies to all monads without exception, takes place in all the
      different realms of the visible and invisible universe, and on all
      its different planes, and in all its different worlds. There are
      eight words used in the theosophical philosophy in connection with
      reimbodiment, which are not all synonymous, although some of these
      eight words have almost the same specific meaning. They are:
      preexistence, rebirth, reimbodiment, palingenesis, metensomatosis,
      metempsychosis, transmigration, reincarnation (see under each word
      for definition). Of these eight words, four only may be said to
      contain the four different basic ideas of the general doctrine of
      reimbodiment, and these four are preexistence, reimbodiment,
      metempsychosis, and transmigration. In no case is the word
      reincarnation identical with any of the other seven words, though of
      course it has grounds of strong similarity with them all, as for
      instance with preexistence, because obviously the entity preexists
      before it reincarnates; and on the same grounds it is similar to
      rebirth, reimbodiment, and metensomatosis. The meaning of the word
      reincarnation differs specifically from rebirth in this, that the
      latter word simply means rebirth in human bodies of flesh on this
      earth; while the former term also contains the implication, tacit if
      not expressed, of possible incarnations in flesh by entities which
      have finished their earthly pilgrimage or evolution, but who can and
      sometimes do return to this earth in order to incarnate for the
      purpose of aiding their less evolved brothers.

      WW Reincarnation Now here are four words which it is exceedingly
      important to properly understand. They are Reincarnation, Re-
      embodiment, Metempsychosis, and Transmigration. All things have life,
      all things are pursuing a course, a pathway, tending towards a
      destiny, springing from a source. How is it done? There must be a
      method in it. It is this method which the ancient philosophers have
      studied and they have enriched the literature of all times with the
      result of their thoughts and their investigations. It is from them
      that we get these words -- in some cases if not the words, the
      thought. Metempsychosis is one of these words, one of the finest of
      them. It generally means, in ordinary literature, or in ordinary
      dictionaries, what will undoubtedly strike us as an inadequate
      presentation. The definitions are usually flippant, often sarcastic,
      sometimes queer. So: "a doctrine of the ancients believed in by some
      of the medieval theosophists and fire-philosophers, signifying the
      transmigration of souls". So it is, in one sense, but it is not in
      another. There is a difference between metempsychosis and
      transmigration. Transmigration comes from two Latin words, trans,
      across, and migrare, to go somewhere. We have it in migration, to
      migrate to a certain place. The word in English has almost the exact
      force of the Latin. Transmigration, then, would mean to migrate
      across, in other words, a passing from life to life. It does not say
      anything more; the definition of the word ends there. It is important
      to note that it does not say from animal life to human or human life
      to spiritual; simply the passing across from one existence to
      another. It may be used of animals, of men, of the gods or spiritual
      beings, but the above is all the word means. The conception embodied
      in this word has a value all its own as applied to the Greek and
      Latin philosophies. It was broadly applied to the teaching of
      Pythagoras (adopted in the Platonic Dialogs, cf. Timaeus, 42:91)
      which is commonly found in the Greek and Latin literatures to be
      something like this: that a man incarnated in a body in accordance
      with his deserts. If he has lived a beastly and hoggish life, in his
      next life he will be a hog; if he has lived a life of a different
      type, if his mind be of a soaring character, albeit simple, yet
      aspiring heavenward, in his next life he will be, perhaps, an eagle.
      If the man is grasping, wolfish, in his character, in his next life
      he will be a wolf, etc. You doubtless know that H. P. Blavatsky has
      dealt with this subject. Theosophy admits no transmigration of this
      kind, and there is no convincing reason to believe that Pythagoras
      taught or Plato really intended any such thing as the human rational
      becoming the brute irrational. But because there have been stories
      related of Pythagoras, about his having recognized things that belong
      to him when he was incarnated in bodies of previous lives, people
      have got the idea that he deliberately taught that men can fall from
      their spiritual estate in one life into the bodies of animals in
      another life. Proclus, and before him Iamblichus, Syrianus and other
      Neoplatonists state emphatically that the Greek philosophers meant
      nothing of the sort. They say, in substance, "Once a man, always a
      man". So also in Theosophy, with one exception: that a man through a
      number of lives of continuous deviltry, evil, mischief-making,
      wickedness, and lust, can so becloud the divine spark shining within
      him that the whole tendency of his nature, of his character, in the
      cycle of reincarnation is towards lower human bodies, lower
      civilizations; until finally comes barbarism and savagery; and if the
      impetus be sufficiently strong it may even carry him out of the human
      circle; he cannot enter the animals (with the exception, perhaps, of
      the higher anthropoids) because no animals are sufficiently near
      enough to the human to allow the junction. The psychic laws of his
      make-up prevent it. When I use that word psychic I use it in the
      sense of the Greek word psyche (psyche), referring to the Kama-Manas -
      - Kama, desire, and Manas, mind. The Psyche was likened to a
      butterfly by the Greeks, a beautiful image, because just as a
      butterfly flits from flower to flower its whole life occupied in
      feeding on the droplets of nectar here and there, in sucking the
      sweetness from all that it lights upon, so the lower aspect of mind
      goes after pleasure, seeking the material sweets of life; there it
      becomes cloyed and spiritually ill. The nature of our lower human
      mind --the Kama-Manas -- was likened to the butterfly, continually
      seeking the sensations of physical life; in other words, those things
      which cause the greatest rush of physical vitality. Now there being
      no normal man who can go sufficiently low for the psychic nature,
      stamped as it is with the Manas, to make a junction with the animal,
      it is impossible, a Psychical impossibility, for a normal man to
      enter a sub-human body. There is one rare exception to that, the case
      for instance, of one of those whom our Teachers have taught us to
      regard as perfected men on this earth. It would be within their
      power, as we shall see, to make a junction if the thing could be
      conceived as ever desirable or probable. But in the ordinary
      instances of life no man could transmigrate, go over, into an animal
      body. The teaching of transmigration into animal bodies is also not
      uncommon in India; but I think it may be shown to be based on
      identical, or closely similar principles to those here set forth....

      Now metempsychosis comes from the word meta
      (meta), 'afterwards', 'with', 'among', 'over', and empsychos
      (empsychos), to animate, from en (en), and psyche (psyche). The
      meaning of this is that the spirit-soul, which is the higher triad of
      man, the Atma-Buddhi-Manas, leaves the body at death. After its
      period of rest and refreshment in the heaven-world, when it is time
      for it to incarnate, it is drawn by the intrinsic processes or
      working of the Psyche, by the attractions towards matter which still
      remain in the spiritual man, to 'enpsychise' itself into another
      body. That is the meaning of metempsychosis. We will develop the
      thought by and by. The fact that it is usually called transmigration
      is due to the fact that reincarnation, transmigration, and
      metempsychosis are so little understood by lexicographers. They do
      not know the mystical difference between these terms. Metempsychosis
      then is the attraction experienced by the psyche for things of
      matter, which is the cause of its return to earth and of its
      reincarnation. Metempsychosis is the re-embodiment of the human soul
      in consequence of the seeds of desire, seeds of material and physical
      life, lying latent in the psyche or the lower mind during its heaven-
      rest, starting into activity, bringing it hence to earth and to
      incarnation. There is another sense, and a very profound one, in
      which metempsychosis is properly usedÂ….

      Reincarnation is a term which is used by all of us to signify the
      infleshing of the soul. It has often seemed to me that distinctions
      should be drawn as to the proper use of this word, because it is
      subject to criticism by intelligent outsiders, and I am as careless
      as anybody as regards the way in which that word is loosely used. I
      have heard people talking of the 'reincarnation' of the universe, or
      the reincarnation of a plant, or the reincarnation of a god; of
      course the term is an absurdity, in such a connection. The
      incarnation of a god is properly speaking an avatara, the descent of
      a divinity into flesh, a subject which we shall come to later.
      Reincarnation means nothing more nor less than infleshing. It is
      proper to speak of the infleshing of an animal soul into an animal
      body, of a human soul into a human body; it is also proper to speak
      of a god or spiritual being taking on its physical vesture as
      incarnating. We hardly possess the proper terms in the European
      language to express these differences. Inzoonization has been
      suggested for the re-embodiment of animals into animal bodies, the
      word coming from zoon (zoon) 'animal'; and re-invegetalization for
      the transmigration or re-embodiment of the plant-soul into the bodies
      of plants, and these terms possess some philosophical accuracy. You
      see the difficulty which we have in these words, because the English
      language (in fact all the European languages) has not the terms to
      express these things. 'Reinmetalization' has been suggested for the
      re-embodiment of the life-atoms in the mineral world. Re-embodiment
      is probably the broadest word of them all.

      SD INDEX Reincarnation(s) II 459. See also Incarnation, Rebirths

      EG | Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary - 1999 | G. de Purucker, ed.
      FY | Five Years of Theosophy - 1885 | H. P. Blavatsky, ed.
      GH | Gods and Heroes of the Bhagavad Gita - 1939 | Geoffrey A.
      Barborka
      IN | An Invitation to the Secret Doctrine - 1988 | Grace F. Knoche,
      ed.
      IU | Isis Unveiled - 1877 | H. P. Blavatsky
      KT | Key to Theosophy - 1889 | H. P. Blavatsky
      MO | The Masks of Odin - 1985 | Elsa-Brita Titchenell
      OG | Occult Glossary - 1933, 1996 | G. de Purucker
      PV | Esotericism of the Popol Vuh | Raphael Girard (glossary by Blair
      A. Moffett)
      SD INDEX | Index to The Secret Doctrine - 1997 | John P. Van Mater
      SF | Search and Find - 1978 | Elsie Benjamin
      SK | Sanskrit Keys the Wisdom Religion - 1940 | Judith Tyberg
      SKf | Sanskrit terms from Fundamentals of the Esoteric Philosophy, by
      G. de Purucker, 1932.
      SKo | Sanskrit terms from The Ocean of Theosophy, by William Q.
      Judge, 1893.
      SKs | Sanskrit terms from The Secret Doctrine, by H. P. Blavatsky,
      1888.
      SKv | Sanskrit terms from The Voice of the Silence, by H. P.
      Blavatsky, 1889.
      SP | Sanskrit Pronunciation - 1992 | Bruce Cameron Hall
      TG | Theosophical Glossary - 1892 | H. P. Blavatsky
      VS | Voice of the Silence - 1889 | H. P. Blavatsky
      WG | The Working Glossary - 1892 | W. Q. Judge
      WGa | Terms from The Working Glossary Appendix
      WW | Word Wisdom in the Esoteric Tradition - 1980 | G. de Purucker
    • martin12617
      Hello everybody, I wanted to ask, whether someone of you had a reincarnation exerience of some sort. I remember a dream I had as a child that I dreamt a dream
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 2003
        Hello everybody,

        I wanted to ask, whether someone of you had a reincarnation exerience
        of some sort. I remember a dream I had as a child that I dreamt a
        dream of someone else and I felt an overlap of mine and someone elses
        presence and existence. I have to say that this someone is me. Today
        I know that either that was reincarnation or it was merely a
        psychological phenomenon I have no clear explanation for yet.
        Martin
      • Judi Schneider
        This was an experience that happened with my daughter: At the time she was barely four years old. She was playing with her doll house when our cat, Shadow,
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 1, 2003
          This was an experience that happened with my daughter:  At the time she was barely four years old.  She was playing with her doll house when our cat, Shadow, came along and scooped all her furniture out so he could lay down in it.  I said to her, "Isn't that funny?!  When I was your age, I had a cat named Smokie who used to do the same thing with my doll house."  For a moment, that I can't really explain, her eyes became completely grown up and her whole persona changed as she looked at me and said very seriously, "Oh yes, I remember,  that's when I was YOUR mother." 
           
          As quickly as the change had happened, it dissipated and she went back to being a four year old little girl.  But I will never forget that experience.
           
          Peace,
          Judi

          martin12617 <martin12617@...> wrote:
          Hello everybody,

          I wanted to ask, whether someone of you had a reincarnation exerience
          of some sort. I remember a dream I had as a child that I dreamt a
          dream of someone else and I felt an overlap of mine and someone elses
          presence and existence. I have to say that this someone is me. Today
          I know that either that was reincarnation or it was merely a
          psychological phenomenon I have no clear explanation for yet.
          Martin



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        • Martin Khoury
          Judi, thank you for sharing that with me! You know that some people would think we are nuts. I myself think I am now living the life of this I would call him
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 1, 2003
            Judi, thank you for sharing that with me!  You know that some people would think we are nuts.
             
            I myself think I am now living the life of this I would call him perpetrator, who captured my body and soul(psyche) and revealed himself to me in that dream. Maybe it's still all explainable as a psychological phenomenon. But I begin to think, to this extent I am lucky, that I am aware of the reincarnation. Most people aren;t I would say. In the dream, I was 5 or so, I felt odd, I felt betrayed, because in that dream I realized what I am dreaming there, this is not my usual. And it was like a destiny laid out in front of me. It was a declaration of a life lived already. And it was like this this is what you will do. A mental rape, that is what reincarnation can be. My experience. I don;'t know why it exists, and what my task is. But I will have to reconcile me and the soul that reincarnated into my body with God. I am praying for me and him. Since most people aren';t aware of the reincarnation, it happens also without any precaution , not very fair.
            It was not necessarily a wonderful gnostic vision, just the plain truth. I guess, I am not special. Otherwise, I had a regular life, plenty of misfortunes and suffering, but also great works and blessings, because Sophia helped me where she could since my arrival here was so messed up.  But I am glad that I was revealed the course of things. Who knows? But it's all true I am writing. 
             
            Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism, two things happened. I understood that since the Ego is the psychological counter[part of the demiurge, it is blind and creating its own world, a world of mistakes, unreality...any salvation when it is supposed to come won't reach us as long as we are in the Ego-state. It came to me as more of a "gnostic" experience I have to say, not exactly as an intellectual conclusion at all. But simultaneously, I adopted this understanding and asked where am I then. And the answer came you are not even here (where I was standing), you are there, someplace else. And I felt that only this part of me, never the Ego, could be reconciled with God. Then, I felt that I was already reconciled with God. And everything was perfect. Shortly after that while being in this state of understanding that a part of me unknown not the ego, I suppressed it, was already "accepted" by a higher being. I felt very happy. Then I was lifted up, mentally, and I was afraid, so the feeling left me. I walked home.
            Peace, Martin
            PS  This experience was also something I won;t forget. What stroke me most was that I understood that beyond the curtain of the ego comes salvation,. But then I felt at peace and it was an affirmation that I have done good work. Maybe it's an illusion? But I felt happy, because it was a special kind of welcome. The feeling went on to become something different and I felt very light and I have to admit as I walked I was scared because it was mentally lifting me up. So I grounded it. Then it disappeared.


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          • Gloria Powell-Frederickson
            That s really neat... I have three daughters (ages 8, 4, and 2), and according to a few stories my 4yo has told me, SHE was MY mother in a past life also...
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 1, 2003
              That's really neat... I have three daughters (ages 8, 4, and 2), and according to a few stories my 4yo has told me, SHE was MY mother in a past life also... that is SO cool... I read somewhere that oftentimes family members reincarnate with you as family members or close friends again in the future (or past)....
              Also, I had a past life dramatization in hypnosis once.... I was trying to figure out the reason for my neck and shoulder pain....... In the past life I was a male Native American with a wife and very new baby.... I went out one day upon a horse and was captured and stabbed by Englishmen in the neck....
              I wish I knew ALL of my reincarnations! That would be awesome... I am curious as to how many Native American incarnations I might have because I do know that I have a very close Spirit Guide called Chief Yellowknife.... but that is all I know about him. (And I have always had a very keene interest in and tearful heart for their past mistreatments)... and in this life I am not Native American.... Well, I am some beautiful mix of Dutch, Irish, Scottish, Polish, and Cherokee Indian (grandmother).... I am not altogether sure how accurate this even is, but for fun I still try to figure out what I got of which heritage all the time.... 
              Oops sorry.got a little off topic there!
              Blessings,
              Gloria
               
              -------Original Message-------
               
              Date: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:12:02 PM
              Subject: Re: [Gnosticism2] Reincarnation
               
              This was an experience that happened with my daughter:  At the time she was barely four years old.  She was playing with her doll house when our cat, Shadow, came along and scooped all her furniture out so he could lay down in it.  I said to her, "Isn't that funny?!  When I was your age, I had a cat named Smokie who used to do the same thing with my doll house."  For a moment, that I can't really explain, her eyes became completely grown up and her whole persona changed as she looked at me and said very seriously, "Oh yes, I remember,  that's when I was YOUR mother." 
               
              As quickly as the change had happened, it dissipated and she went back to being a four year old little girl.  But I will never forget that experience.
               
              Peace,
              Judi

              martin12617 <martin12617@...> wrote:
              Hello everybody,

              I wanted to ask, whether someone of you had a reincarnation exerience
              of some sort. I remember a dream I had as a child that I dreamt a
              dream of someone else and I felt an overlap of mine and someone elses
              presence and existence. I have to say that this someone is me. Today
              I know that either that was reincarnation or it was merely a
              psychological phenomenon I have no clear explanation for yet.
              Martin



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            • Mike Leavitt
              Hello Martin ... One version of reincarnation in the Qabalah is that you have only three lives to make it. If you get to the third one you are overshadowed by
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 1, 2003
                Hello Martin

                On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

                > Judi, thank you for sharing that with me! You know that some people
                > would think we are nuts.
                >
                > I myself think I am now living the life of this I would call him
                > perpetrator, who captured my body and soul(psyche) and revealed
                > himself to me in that dream. Maybe it's still all explainable as a
                > psychological phenomenon. But I begin to think, to this extent I am
                > lucky, that I am aware of the reincarnation. Most people aren't I
                > would say. In the dream, I was 5 or so, I felt odd, I felt betrayed,
                > because in that dream I realized what I am dreaming there, this is
                > not my usual. And it was like a destiny laid out in front of me. It
                > was a declaration of a life lived already. And it was like this this
                > is what you will do. A mental rape, that is what reincarnation can
                > be. My experience. I don;'t know why it exists, and what my task is.
                > But I will have to reconcile me and the soul that reincarnated into
                > my body with God. I am praying for me and him. Since most people
                > aren't aware of the reincarnation, it happens also without any
                > precaution , not very fair. It was not necessarily a wonderful
                > gnostic vision, just the plain truth. I guess, I am not special.
                > Otherwise, I had a regular life, plenty of misfortunes and
                > suffering, but also great works and blessings, because Sophia helped
                > me where she could since my arrival here was so messed up. But I am
                > glad that I was revealed the course of things. Who knows? But it's
                > all true I am writing.
                >
                > Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
                > in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism, two things
                > happened. I understood that since the Ego is the psychological
                > counter[part of the demiurge, it is blind and creating its own
                > world, a world of mistakes, unreality...any salvation when it is
                > supposed to come won't reach us as long as we are in the Ego-state.
                > It came to me as more of a "gnostic" experience I have to say, not
                > exactly as an intellectual conclusion at all. But simultaneously, I
                > adopted this understanding and asked where am I then. And the answer
                > came you are not even here (where I was standing), you are there,
                > someplace else. And I felt that only this part of me, never the Ego,
                > could be reconciled with God. Then, I felt that I was already
                > reconciled with God. And everything was perfect. Shortly after that
                > while being in this state of understanding that a part of me unknown
                > not the ego, I suppressed it, was already "accepted" by a
                > higher being. I felt very happy. Then I was lifted up, mentally,
                > and I was afraid, so the feeling left me. I walked home. Peace,
                > Martin
                > PS This experience was also something I won;t forget. What stroke me
                > most was that I understood that beyond the curtain of the ego comes
                > salvation,. But then I felt at peace and it was an affirmation that
                > I have done good work. Maybe it's an illusion? But I felt happy,
                > because it was a special kind of welcome. The feeling went on to
                > become something different and I felt very light and I have to admit
                > as I walked I was scared because it was mentally lifting me up. So I
                > grounded it. Then it disappeared.

                One version of reincarnation in the Qabalah is that you have only
                three lives to make it. If you get to the third one you are
                overshadowed by a greater soul to help you. I don't personally
                subscribe to this, but it sounds hauntingly like your experience as a
                child. At least you have a proper perception of the ego. That will
                get you a long way.

                Regards
                --
                Mike Leavitt ac998@...
              • Mike Leavitt
                Hello Gloria ... It is said that the reason we do not remember past lives usually is because we would live in the past, and it would hinder current
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 2, 2003
                  Hello Gloria

                  On 01-Jul-03, you wrote:

                  >That's really neat... I have three daughters (ages 8, 4, and 2), and
                  >according to a few stories my 4yo has told me, SHE was MY mother in
                  >a past life also... that is SO cool... I read somewhere that
                  >oftentimes family members reincarnate with you as family members or
                  >close friends again in the future (or past).... Also, I had a past
                  >life dramatization in hypnosis once.... I was trying to figure out
                  >the reason for my neck and shoulder pain....... In the past life I
                  >was a male Native American with a wife and very new baby.... I went
                  >out one day upon a horse and was captured and stabbed by Englishmen
                  >in the neck.

                  It is said that the reason we do not remember past lives usually is
                  because we would live in the past, and it would hinder current
                  development. When one does remember, it is usually for a reason,
                  something we have to learn again from it.

                  Regards
                  --
                  Mike Leavitt ac998@...
                • pmcvflag
                  Hello Martin Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism In fact, it would
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 2, 2003
                    Hello Martin

                    "Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
                    in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism"

                    In fact, it would be very much to the point of the club if you told
                    us exactly what you viewed the "fundemental principles of gnosticism"
                    to be. Past life experience is certainly an interesting enough
                    subject, but for the most part one that is outside of traditional
                    Gnostic belief systems. While this does not mean that it is without
                    value to your personal modern form of Gnosticism, part of the purpose
                    of this club is to relate or contrast or modern ideas with that of
                    traditional Gnosticism.

                    PMCV
                  • Martin Khoury
                    pmcvflag, I think one of us is in the wrong club. But as to your comment. The fundamental principles of Gnostic teaching I regard, the creation myth and its
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 2, 2003
                      pmcvflag,
                       
                      I think one of us is in the wrong club. But as to your comment. The fundamental principles of Gnostic teaching I regard, the creation myth and its parallel or counterpart in the psyche. After all, external events become external events through us.
                      We will be reached thru the psyche. So I dwelt on this for a while, right?
                      So and then the events took course. I hope this sufficies for you.
                      I think you limit the purpose of the "club" by stating that we will (who is we?),
                      review and evaluate modern with traditional teachings. I think Gnosis, Gnosticism is a very broad subject with certainly common elements. Don;t limit it, don't limit yourself.
                      So once again, sorry about the imprecision, fundamental principles of Gnosticism I view the creative narrative in form of the myth, Sophia descending from above in search of the light and the psychological parallel of this mythologem. There are certainly other myths, they then too are part of the fundamental principles. The reincarnation you are right I admit not a universally followed doctrine or concept within the traditional Gnostic traditions. To me it is very real until I find another explanation. I am referring to my dream. Have a nice day! Martin 
                      pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      Hello Martin

                      "Yesterday, I had a funny revelation: As I was pondering and reciting
                      in my mind the most fundamental principles of gnosticism"

                      In fact, it would be very much to the point of the club if you told
                      us exactly what you viewed the "fundemental principles of gnosticism"
                      to be. Past life experience is certainly an interesting enough
                      subject, but for the most part one that is outside of traditional
                      Gnostic belief systems. While this does not mean that it is without
                      value to your personal modern form of Gnosticism, part of the purpose
                      of this club is to relate or contrast or modern ideas with that of
                      traditional Gnosticism.

                      PMCV



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                    • pessy@chez.com
                      ... Docetism, Dualism, Pessimism, Misocosmism, and Misonomianism. Klaus Schilling
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 2, 2003
                        pmcvflag writes:
                        >
                        > In fact, it would be very much to the point of the club if you told
                        > us exactly what you viewed the "fundemental principles of gnosticism"
                        > to be.

                        Docetism, Dualism, Pessimism, Misocosmism, and Misonomianism.

                        Klaus Schilling
                      • pmcvflag
                        ... Well, you may be right, Martin, in saying that one of us is in the wrong club. However, since I am one of the founders here, and one of the people who
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 3, 2003
                          >>>I think one of us is in the wrong club.<<<<

                          Well, you may be right, Martin, in saying that one of us is in the
                          wrong club. However, since I am one of the founders here, and one of
                          the people who chose exactly what the topic of this club is intended
                          to be.... that wrong person would have to be you.

                          >>>I think you limit the purpose of the "club"<<<

                          You are absolutely right Martin, I do limit the purpose of this club.
                          The club has a specific purpose which the co-founders and myself have
                          created, and we are not going to change that purpose to the
                          discussion of Nascar, or Scooby Doo.... I am sure there are already
                          clubs for that.

                          >>>I think Gnosis, Gnosticism is a very broad subject with certainly
                          common elements.<<<<

                          Well, your definition is fine for you. However, for this clubs
                          purpose the term "Gnosticism" refers only to the word as it was
                          coined by the scholors who have been instrumental in it's creation.
                          Just as we are no here to talk about Nascar, we are not here to talk
                          about alternative layperson definitions of what "Gnosticism" is....
                          there are already other clubs for that as well.

                          Think of this club as a seminar format university class. There are
                          the professors who teach the class, there are visiting professors who
                          contribute a great deal, and there are the students who are allowed
                          to interact as long as the class stays on topic. This club is like
                          that university study format. The club has a stated purpose, it has
                          acceptable an inacceptable subject matter (and behavior), and anyone
                          who is here is here as a guest based on their interest in the subject
                          at hand, and thier presence is at the discression of the person who
                          is running the class.

                          So, you may now be asking "well, what is the subject then?". The
                          subject is specifically to deal with traditional (historical) forms
                          of that academic invention called "Gnosticism" as well as how they
                          effect our modern selves.

                          You do raise a point that is on topic....

                          >>>The reincarnation you are right I admit not a universally followed
                          doctrine or concept within the traditional Gnostic traditions.<<<<

                          To some extent we have come across this topic a few times. There are
                          mentions of transmigration in Gnostic (and realated) sources, we have
                          debated the possibility of metempsychosis as well. There are no
                          mentions that I can think of where "reincarnation" is talked about in
                          Gnostic sources though (maybe I have forgotton one somewhere). So,
                          not only is it not a "universally followed doctrine", I question
                          question if it is a doctrin that any Gnostic group believed in.

                          However, this does not mean that a modern person is not justified in
                          thier personal belief. But, there is something more. An interesting
                          subject could be whether reincarnation can be reconciled with the
                          notions of spirit seen in various Gnostic sects. For instance, the
                          belief we see in some texts that spirit is something put on, like a
                          vest, as opposed to an innate quality in every human. To take that
                          idea to it's conclusion would make reincarnation a very difficult
                          juxteposition (since those without the spirit would simply die, and
                          those with the spirit would have laready found "Gnosis" and thus
                          achieved release from the world) Aother example would be the
                          Manichaean belief that spirit holds no memory, and that it is
                          recycled. This would make the "past life" experience impossible.

                          Anyways, I am not forwarding any specific theory myself, merely
                          pointing out how reincarnation certainly cannot work with all forms
                          of "biblical demiurgy" movements. Surely there were some that may
                          have believed in it though.

                          PMCV
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