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[Gnosticism2] Re: [Gnosticism] ISLAM AND THE AsIM OF LIFE

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  • pessy@chez.com
    ... Wine extends to all strongly psychoactive materials, like shrooms, coffee, and LSD. ... that s anti-encratite as well Klaus Schilling
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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      incognito_lightbringer writes:
      > Klaus admires the encratites.
      > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.

      'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
      like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.

      > (Maybe a visit to the local
      > dominatrix for some flagellation)

      that's anti-encratite as well

      Klaus Schilling
    • pessy@chez.com
      ... Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of mortification of the Thelema. Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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        incognito_lightbringer writes:
        > What about the Cathar endura?

        Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of
        mortification of the Thelema.
        Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a form of
        affirmation of the Thelema, with very rare exceptions
        like those of Philip Mainlaender and Mario de Sa'-Carneiro
        This has been shown e.g. by A. Schopenhauer's
        "Welt als Wille und Vorstellung"


        Klaus Schilling
      • beautiful2afault
        i got this far. Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah. The term Worship covers all acts of obedience to Allah and had to comment. without going
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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          i got this far. "
          Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah. The
          term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah"

          and had to comment.

          without going into the formation of my thought. when the individual
          must be brought to obedience the situation is in a far cry.

          several things going on.

          there is love and equality,
          respect and honor
          and finally obedience

          it would seem to me that obedience is a far cry from love
          but a good start for those who cannot fathom love especially one for
          the other in any or all social or personal perspective.

          so yes, by all means come up to a level of obedience if that means
          civil conduct toward others. then try for higher levels of
          existence. respect and honor, love and equality.

          when i have to bend to obidence. i have left the platue of love and
          respect.

          of course following obidence can prevent a bunch of pain and
          suffering in just doing what is told and said to do. like a
          thougtless process not needing or wanting more. cause all should be
          fulfilled from the sheer obidence of all acts in according to some
          one elses and god's thinking.

          well i don't think so. if you are without love or respect or the
          inabiltiy to develop such. then by all means. strive for obidence.

          and our world will be a better place. but don't force your thinking
          upon ones who love god and try to love one another in the same breath.

          understand this? understand this and the world will come to better.
          if you don't understand this. then do strive toward obey toward god
          and maybe some form of love.


          beautiful2afault

          --- In gnosticism2@y..., "domiati" <domiati@y...> wrote:
          >
          > What is the purpose of my life? What is the purpose of your life?
          > What is the purpose of our lives? Such questions occur frequently
          to
          > thingking people.
          >
          > People answer these questions in different ways. Some people
          believe
          > the purpose of life is getting wealthy. But these people what their
          > purpose be after they have collected millions of dollars. So What?
          > And then What? What will be their purpose after they get these
          > millions of dollars? If the purpose of life is to become wealthy,
          > there will be no purpose after becoming wealthy. And in fact, here
          > comes the problem of some disbelievers or misbelievers. In some
          > stages of their life. When they are collecting money is the target
          of
          > life. When they collected the money which they have dreamt of,
          their
          > life losses purpose and they live in tension and restlessness and
          > suffer from the panic of nothingness.
          >
          > Can Wealth be an Aim?
          >
          > We often hear of a millionaire committing suicide. Sometimes, not
          the
          > millionaire himself but his wife, son, or daughter. The question is
          > this: can aiming at wealth bring happiness to the individual? In
          most
          > cases the answer is NO. Is the purpose of collecting wealth is a
          > standing purpose? As we know, the child of five years does not look
          > for wealth: he prepares a toy to a million dollars. The adolescent
          of
          > eighteen does not dream of wealth because he is busy with more
          > important things. The old man of ninety years does not care for
          > money, he is worried more about his health. This proves that wealth
          > cannot be a standing purpose in all the stages of the individual's
          > life.
          >
          > Wealth can do a little to bring happiness to a disbeliever, because
          a
          > disbeliever is not sure about his end or his fate. A disbeliever
          does
          > not know the purpose of life. And if he has a purpose, this purpose
          > is doomed to be temporary or self destructive.
          >
          > What is the use of wealth to a disbeliever if he feels scared of
          the
          > end and skeptical of everything. A disbeliever may gain a lot of
          > money, but surely loses himself.
          >
          > Worshipping Allah as an Aim
          >
          > On the contrary, faith in Allah gives the believer the purpose of
          > life he needs. In Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah.
          The
          > term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah.
          >
          > The Islamic purpose of life is a standing purpose. The true Muslim
          > sticks to this purpose throughout all the stages of his life,
          whether
          > he is a child, adolescent, adult, or an old man.
          >
          > Worshipping Allah makes life purposeful and meaning especially with
          > the framework of Islam. According to Islam this worldly life is
          just
          > a short stage of our life. Then there is the other life. The first
          > life and the second life are by the death stage, which is a
          > transitory stage of the second life. The type of the second life a
          > person deserves depends on his deeds in the first life. At the end
          of
          > the death stage comes the day of judgment On this day, Allah
          rewards
          > or punishes people according to their deeds in the first life.
          >
          > The First Life as an Examination
          >
          > So Islam looks at the first life as an examination of man. The
          death
          > stage is similar to a rest period after the test, i. e., after the
          > first life. The Day of Judgment is similar to the day of announcing
          > the results of the examines. The second life is the time when each
          > examinee enjoys or suffers from the outcome of his behaviour during
          > the test period.
          >
          > In Islam, the line of life is clear, simple, and logical: the first
          > life, death then the Day of Judgement, and then the second life.
          With
          > this clear line of life, the Muslim has a clear purpose in life.
          The
          > Muslims knows he is created by Allah. The Muslim knows he is going
          to
          > spend some years in this first life, during which he has to obey
          God,
          > because God will question him and hold him responsible for his
          deeds,
          > whether done publicly or privately, because Allah knows all deeds
          of
          > all people. The Muslim knows that his deeds in the first life will
          > determine the type of his second life. The Muslim knows that this
          > first life is very short one, one hundred years, more or less,
          > whereas the second life is an eternal one.
          >
          > The Eternity of the second Life
          >
          > This concept of the eternity of the second life has a tremendous
          > effect on a Muslim during his first life, habecause the Muslims
          > believes that his first life determines the shape of his second
          life.
          > In addition, this determines shape of his second life. In addition,
          > this determination will be through the Judgement of Allah, the All
          > just and Almighty.
          >
          > With this belief in the second life and the Day of Judgement, the
          > Muslim's life becomes as purposeful as possible and as meaningful
          as
          > possible. The Muslim's standing purpose is to go to Paradise in the
          > second life.
          >
          > In other words, the Muslim's permanent purpose is to obey Allah, to
          > summit to Allah to summit to Allah, to carry out His orders, and to
          > keep in continues touch with Him through prayer (five times a day),
          > through fasting (one month a year), through charity (as often as
          > possible), and through pilgrimage (once in one's life).
          >
          > The need For a Permanent Purpose
          >
          > Disbelievers have purposes in their lives such as collecting money
          > and property, indulging sex, eating, and dancing. But all these
          > purposes are passing ones. All these purposes come and go, go up
          and
          > down. Money comes and goes. Health comes and goes. Sexual
          activities
          > cannot continue forever. All these lusts for money, food and sex
          > cannot answer the individual's questions to himself: so what? Then
          > What?
          >
          > However, Islam saves the Muslims from trouble of asking the
          question,
          > because Islam makes it clear to the Muslim, from the very
          beginning,
          > that the permanent purpose of the Muslim, in this life is to obey
          > Allah in order to go to Paradise in the second life.
          >
          > We should know that the only way for our salvation in this life and
          > in the hereafter is to know for sure our Lord who created us,
          believe
          > in Him, and worship Him alone.
          >
          > We should also know our Prophet whom Allah had sent to all mankind,
          > believe in Him and follow Him. We should, know the religion of
          truth
          > which our Lord has commanded us to believe in, and practice it..
          >
          > Those in search of truth
          >
          > Who have an open mind and heart,
          >
          > Islamic Education Foundation
          >
          > Welcome You.
          >
          > Objectives: -
          >
          > To Convey the message of Islam
          >
          > To Educate Muslims aboof Islam
          >
          > To keep in close contact with new Muslims.
          >
          > Activities:
          >
          > Offering Courses and presenting lectures about Islam in several
          > languages.
          >
          > Teaching Islam and Arabic.
          >
          > Teaching new Muslims to receive the Holy Quran.
          >
          > Helping Non- Muslims embrace Islam and complete the required
          > procedures.
          >
          >
          > What is the purpose of my life? What is the purpose of your life?
          > What is the purpose of our lives? Such questions occur frequently
          to
          > thingking people.
          >
          > People answer these questions in different ways. Some people
          believe
          > the purpose of life is getting wealthy. But these people what their
          > purpose be after they have collected millions of dollars. So What?
          > And then What? What will be their purpose after they get these
          > millions of dollars? If the purpose of life is to become wealthy,
          > there will be no purpose after becoming wealthy. And in fact, here
          > comes the problem of some disbelievers or misbelievers. In some
          > stages of their life. When they are collecting money is the target
          of
          > life. When they collected the money which they have dreamt of,
          their
          > life losses purpose and they live in tension and restlessness and
          > suffer from the panic of nothingness.
          >
          > Can Wealth be an Aim?
          >
          > We often hear of a millionaire committing suicide. Sometimes, not
          the
          > millionaire himself but his wife, son, or daughter. The question is
          > this: can aiming at wealth bring happiness to the individual? In
          most
          > cases the answer is NO. Is the purpose of collecting wealth is a
          > standing purpose? As we know, the child of five years does not look
          > for wealth: he prepares a toy to a million dollars. The adolescent
          of
          > eighteen does not dream of wealth because he is busy with more
          > important things. The old man of ninety years does not care for
          > money, he is worried more about his health. This proves that wealth
          > cannot be a standing purpose in all the stages of the individual's
          > life.
          >
          > Wealth can do a little to bring happiness to a disbeliever, because
          a
          > disbeliever is not sure about his end or his fate. A disbeliever
          does
          > not know the purpose of life. And if he has a purpose, this purpose
          > is doomed to be temporary or self destructive.
          >
          > What is the use of wealth to a disbeliever if he feels scared of
          the
          > end and skeptical of everything. A disbeliever may gain a lot of
          > money, but surely loses himself.
          >
          > Worshipping Allah as an Aim
          >
          > On the contrary, faith in Allah gives the believer the purpose of
          > life he needs. In Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah.
          The
          > term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah.
          >
          > The Islamic purpose of life is a standing purpose. The true Muslim
          > sticks to this purpose throughout all the stages of his life,
          whether
          > he is a child, adolescent, adult, or an old man.
          >
          > Worshipping Allah makes life purposeful and meaning especially with
          > the framework of Islam. According to Islam this worldly life is
          just
          > a short stage of our life. Then there is the other life. The first
          > life and the second life are by the death stage, which is a
          > transitory stage of the second life. The type of the second life a
          > person deserves depends on his deeds in the first life. At the end
          of
          > the death stage comes the day of judgment On this day, Allah
          rewards
          > or punishes people according to their deeds in the first life.
          >
          > The First Life as an Examination
          >
          > So Islam looks at the first life as an examination of man. The
          death
          > stage is similar to a rest period after the test, i. e., after the
          > first life. The Day of Judgment is similar to the day of announcing
          > the results of the examines. The second life is the time when each
          > examinee enjoys or suffers from the outcome of his behaviour during
          > the test period.
          >
          > In Islam, the line of life is clear, simple, and logical: the first
          > life, death then the Day of Judgement, and then the second life.
          With
          > this clear line of life, the Muslim has a clear purpose in life.
          The
          > Muslims knows he is created by Allah. The Muslim knows he is going
          to
          > spend some years in this first life, during which he has to obey
          God,
          > because God will question him and hold him responsible for his
          deeds,
          > whether done publicly or privately, because Allah knows all deeds
          of
          > all people. The Muslim knows that his deeds in the first life will
          > determine the type of his second life. The Muslim knows that this
          > first life is very short one, one hundred years, more or less,
          > whereas the second life is an eternal one.
          >
          > The Eternity of the second Life
          >
          > This concept of the eternity of the second life has a tremendous
          > effect on a Muslim during his first life, habecause the Muslims
          > believes that his first life determines the shape of his second
          life.
          > In addition, this determines shape of his second life. In addition,
          > this determination will be through the Judgement of Allah, the All
          > just and Almighty.
          >
          > With this belief in the second life and the Day of Judgement, the
          > Muslim's life becomes as purposeful as possible and as meaningful
          as
          > possible. The Muslim's standing purpose is to go to Paradise in the
          > second life.
          >
          > In other words, the Muslim's permanent purpose is to obey Allah, to
          > summit to Allah to summit to Allah, to carry out His orders, and to
          > keep in continues touch with Him through prayer (five times a day),
          > through fasting (one month a year), through charity (as often as
          > possible), and through pilgrimage (once in one's life).
          >
          > The need For a Permanent Purpose
          >
          > Disbelievers have purposes in their lives such as collecting money
          > and property, indulging sex, eating, and dancing. But all these
          > purposes are passing ones. All these purposes come and go, go up
          and
          > down. Money comes and goes. Health comes and goes. Sexual
          activities
          > cannot continue forever. All these lusts for money, food and sex
          > cannot answer the individual's questions to himself: so what? Then
          > What?
          >
          > However, Islam saves the Muslims from trouble of asking the
          question,
          > because Islam makes it clear to the Muslim, from the very
          beginning,
          > that the permanent purpose of the Muslim, in this life is to obey
          > Allah in order to go to Paradise in the second life.
          >
          > We should know that the only way for our salvation in this life and
          > in the hereafter is to know for sure our Lord who created us,
          believe
          > in Him, and worship Him alone.
          >
          > We should also know our Prophet whom Allah had sent to all mankind,
          > believe in Him and follow Him. We should, know the religion of
          truth
          > which our Lord has commanded us to believe in, and practice it..
          >
          > Those in search of truth
          >
          > Who have an open mind and heart,
          >
          > Islamic Education Foundation
          >
          > Welcome You.
          >
          > Objectives: -
          >
          > To Convey the message of Islam
          >
          > To Educate Muslims aboof Islam
          >
          > To keep in close contact with new Muslims.
          >
          > Activities:
          >
          > Offering Courses and presenting lectures about Islam in several
          > languages.
          >
          > Teaching Islam and Arabic.
          >
          > Teaching new Muslims to receive the Holy Quran.
          >
          > Helping Non- Muslims embrace Islam and complete the required
          > procedures.
        • beautiful2afault
          it was not that religion was hijacked but love love was hijacked by relgion and conformed squashed into the some human understanding for that particular time
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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            it was not that religion was hijacked but love

            love was hijacked by relgion and conformed squashed into the
            some human understanding for that particular time and age.

            don't do this, do do that, and all the rules associated with control
            because humanity can not seem to control their own sexual and
            emotional aims.

            ah the procreation of our loins
            may it be civil, may it be love, may it be consentual.

            beautiful2afault


            --- In gnosticism2@y..., Coraxo <coraxo@e...> wrote:
            > However;
            >
            > there appears to be an administrative problem with the list.
            >
            > I am on this "gnosticism2@y..." list and another
            > "gnosticism@y...".
            >
            > Now both lists are using "[Gnosticism]" in the subject line of
            posts that go
            > out.
            >
            > I was thinking in my reply to the spam from 'Domiati" that this was
            going to
            > the latter list not this one.
            >
            > Could perhaps some way of distinguishing in the subject line be
            madeto make
            > the reference list more easily identifiable?
            >
            > My response to Domiati had more relevance on the other gnosticism
            list since
            > some cursory study of the soteriology of the Imamate had been
            broached -
            > however I do not think this list has had that subject as topic, or
            if so, it
            > did not develop.
            >
            > So my response to Domiati's spam post is probably somewhat
            dissonant here
            > since there is no post history on Islam recently.
            >
            > Is it possible that one of the two "[Gnosticism]" clubs could use
            some
            > modifier to make the subject line distinguishable between the two?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Corax
            >
            >
            > From: pessy@c...
            > Reply-To: gnosticism2@y...
            > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 18:05:27 +0200
            > To: gnosticism2@y...
            > Subject: Re: [Gnosticism] ISLAM AND THE AsIM OF LIFE
            >
            >
            > Coraxo writes:
            > > The problem is that Islam was hijacked
            >
            > like all the larger religions
            >
            > Klaus Schilling
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@y...
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
            > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
          • lady_caritas
            ... Notwithstanding past discussions in our group as to whether Cathars considered the sacrament of Consolamentum to be of ultimate significance in liberation
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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              --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
              > incognito_lightbringer writes:
              > > What about the Cathar endura?
              >
              > Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of
              > mortification of the Thelema.
              > Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a form of
              > affirmation of the Thelema, with very rare exceptions
              > like those of Philip Mainlaender and Mario de Sa'-Carneiro
              > This has been shown e.g. by A. Schopenhauer's
              > "Welt als Wille und Vorstellung"
              >
              >
              > Klaus Schilling

              Notwithstanding past discussions in our group as to whether Cathars
              considered the sacrament of Consolamentum to be of ultimate
              significance in liberation instead of Gnosis in their soteriology,
              the Cathar endura was nonetheless according to the author in the
              following link,
              "… not attested in early Catharist sources, but, it does appear to
              have been a practice among the late (and extremely peculiar) Cathars
              of Montaillou in the fourteenth century. Much in their beliefs and
              practices is unusual, and although Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie's account,
              _Montaillou_, is perhaps the most widely known work on the Cathars,
              neither it, nor the heretics it describes can be taken as typical."

              http://www.gnosis.org/consolamentum.html

              As to one view on Schopenhauer ~

              http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/schopenbio.html#_dieweltalswilleund
              vorstellung

              "Within philosophy itself, Schopenhauer is important for having
              broken with his Idealist contemporaries both in espousing a down-to-
              earth materialism and in forsaking philosophic jargon in favor of a
              limpid and vigorous literary style. He put forward a metaphysics of
              the will which approached life in concrete terms (his psychological
              insights often anticipate Freud) and resulted in a pessimistic
              attitude to the cosmos. Schopenhauer held that there are two ways to
              combat the tyranny of the will. The first is through art, at its most
              exalted in music; it is this aspect that entitles him to be thought
              of as the exemplarily Romantic philosopher, expounding (in Thomas
              Mann's phrase) a `Künstlerphilosophie [artist's philosophy] par
              excellence.' The second path lies in an ethic of asceticism and self-
              overcoming; Schopenhauer was one of the first Western thinkers to
              take seriously Hindu and Buddhist philosophy."

              and

              "But art offers only a temporary exit from the phenomenal world--the
              world of suffering, of practical affairs, of causal determinism. The
              more lasting path is not aesthetic but ethical. The individual,
              Schopenhauer argues, ought to overcome the chains of desire that
              enslave him to the will; the ideal is disillusioned, ascetic turning
              away from the world. It would be better not to have been born; yet
              suicide is a mistake, since it rules out the possibility of self-
              overcoming."

              Cari
            • alexis johnson
              An interesting read. Cari, although as for the Diabola est Deus Inversus , I ve recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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                An interesting read. Cari, although as for the "Diabola est Deus Inversus", I've recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky waiting for the lightning bolt to strike).

                 

                Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both?  I once wrote a poem about "God and the Devil dancing around me trading off masks" so I was never sure who was who or what was what.

                Blackfire

                 lady_caritas wrote:

                --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >  pessy@c... wrote:
                > domiati writes:
                > >
                > > What is the purpose of my life?
                >
                > Self-mortification
                >
                > > What is the purpose of your life?
                >
                > ditto
                >
                > > What is the purpose of our lives?
                >
                > ditto
                >
                >
                > Klaus Schilling
                >

                >
                > SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!
                >

                >
                > Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.
                >

                >
                > There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean
                isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some
                help here...


                Blackfire ~ Of course, only Klaus can explain further what he means
                in his post by "self-mortification."

                In the meantime, the following homily by Rev. Steven Marshall offers
                one perspective on "Self-Examination."

                http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ecclesia/homily_Lent1.htm

                Whether or not one agrees with Steven Marshall's point of view (with
                Jungian overtones), his words are pause for consideration.

                "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in some
                mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about
                human consciousness�there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis
                that can only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis
                not only liberates one from the attachments and snares of the world
                but also awakens a compassion for all sentient beings and a desire to
                remain and help others with the task of Self-knowledge. Liberation
                from the chains of attainment frees us from bondage to our demiurgic
                egos."

                Cari




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              • incognito_lightbringer
                Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when you re rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with milk and honey? (I hate
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
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                  Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when
                  you're rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with
                  milk and honey? (I hate to even ask about chocolate, the Inca kings
                  drank 100 cups a day of that stuff).
                  Klaus, are you a Mormon?
                  Hoeller tells an amusing story in one of his lectures how the Mormons
                  came to Austria to convert the locals. His mother was complaining
                  that they wanted everyone to give coffee up, and that just wouldn't
                  do. They didn't have a very successful mission.

                  --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
                  > incognito_lightbringer writes:
                  > > Klaus admires the encratites.
                  > > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.
                  >
                  > 'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
                  > like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.
                  >
                  > > (Maybe a visit to the local
                  > > dominatrix for some flagellation)
                  >
                  > that's anti-encratite as well
                  >
                  > Klaus Schilling
                • pessy@chez.com
                  ... No way. Morons violate celibacy and veganism without even a glimpse of malconscience. They even justify marriage and procreation. *vomit* They also deny
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
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                    incognito_lightbringer writes:

                    > Klaus, are you a Mormon?

                    No way.
                    Morons violate celibacy and veganism
                    without even a glimpse of malconscience.
                    They even justify marriage and procreation. *vomit*
                    They also deny palingenetic reincarnation.
                    In addition, they are against docetism.
                    On top of all, they are personalistic theists.
                    They also deny the inherent evilness of creation.
                    So I'm nowhere near the Morons,
                    even scored 0% in the belief-o-matic test.

                    Klaus Schilling
                  • lady_caritas
                    Heh, heh. Incognito, I sit here finally with my first cup of coffee of the day (even though I ve been up and busy for over three hours already) to read again
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
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                      Heh, heh. Incognito, I sit here finally with my first cup of coffee
                      of the day (even though I've been up and busy for over three hours
                      already) to read again through various thoughtful responses from
                      members to my evolutionary quandary.

                      Be back later when I attempt to put some thoughts together,
                      influenced though they may be by ingestion of this "strongly
                      psychoactive" drink.

                      And, Klaus, I just read your most recent post. Your spelling
                      of "Mormons" was surely just a typographical error? And, although
                      you are certainly entitled to your lifestyle, I'll try to ignore
                      the "vomit" comment, too.

                      Cheers,
                      Cari :-)


                      --- In gnosticism2@y..., incognito_lightbringer <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when
                      > you're rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with
                      > milk and honey? (I hate to even ask about chocolate, the Inca kings
                      > drank 100 cups a day of that stuff).
                      > Klaus, are you a Mormon?
                      > Hoeller tells an amusing story in one of his lectures how the
                      Mormons
                      > came to Austria to convert the locals. His mother was complaining
                      > that they wanted everyone to give coffee up, and that just wouldn't
                      > do. They didn't have a very successful mission.
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
                      > > incognito_lightbringer writes:
                      > > > Klaus admires the encratites.
                      > > > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.
                      > >
                      > > 'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
                      > > like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.
                      > >
                      > > > (Maybe a visit to the local
                      > > > dominatrix for some flagellation)
                      > >
                      > > that's anti-encratite as well
                      > >
                      > > Klaus Schilling
                    • lady_caritas
                      ... Inversus , I ve recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky waiting for the lightning
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
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                        --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > An interesting read. Cari, although as for the "Diabola est Deus
                        Inversus", I've recently come to the conclusion that God and the
                        Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky
                        waiting for the lightning bolt to strike).
                        >
                        > Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both? I once wrote a poem
                        about "God and the Devil dancing around me trading off masks" so I
                        was never sure who was who or what was what.
                        > Blackfire

                        Do you still have the poem? It sounds interesting.

                        Anyway, Blackfire, in Gnostic mythology the deity who created the
                        material world is not the same as the True God or Bythos. The
                        mythological creator god takes on a range of characteristics from
                        evil (Sethian) to a more foolish, capricious deity (Valentinian)
                        depending on the Gnostic school.

                        The article in this link will give you an introduction to the
                        Demiurge in Valentinianism ~

                        http://www.cyberus.ca/~brons/demiurge.htm
                        from the text:
                        ".. the Demiurge in Valentinianism is quite different in character
                        from the hostile creator figure familiar from other schools of
                        Gnosticism. In the Sethian school, for example, the Demiurge is a
                        hostile demonic force who creates the material world in order to trap
                        the spiritual elements. In contrast, Valentinians "show a relatively
                        positive attitude towards the craftsman of the world or god of
                        Israel" (Layton 1987). Valentinians insisted that while the Demiurge
                        may be a bit foolish, he certainly could not be considered evil.
                        Instead, he has a role to play in the process of redemption."

                        Cari
                      • pessy@chez.com
                        ... Both the demiurge and the devil are Archons, nowhere near the Divine. Klaus Schilling
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 6, 2002
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                          alexis johnson writes:

                          >
                          > Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both?

                          Both the demiurge and the devil are Archons, nowhere near the Divine.

                          Klaus Schilling
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