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  • lady_caritas
    ... could have ... why take ... and make ... really ... materials. ... Oh, my pleasure, Corax. Thanks for responding so quickly. It is certainly not your
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 2, 2002
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      --- In gnosticism2@y..., Coraxo <coraxo@e...> wrote:
      > Thanks Caritas- the new tag comes out quite nicely, although you
      could have
      > taken pride of place by setting it as ..."[Gnosticism1]"..I mean
      why take
      > seconds, right?
      >
      > Although it is ultimately my responsibility as a writer to check
      and make
      > certain what list I am responding to the modification does help my
      > increasingly sun-burned noggin to sort things out better.
      >
      > So not really an "administrative" problem on your end - the problem
      really
      > was mine insofar as I am able to organize my reading and writing
      materials.
      >
      > But I appreciate the assistance :-D
      >
      > Corax

      Oh, my pleasure, Corax. Thanks for responding so quickly. It is
      certainly not your problem either, by any means. One so
      knowledgeable and prolific as you should have help from all sources
      to maintain your organization. Gnosticism1? Ah, that's a thought,
      but, hey, ... nah, too much more editing involved. lol

      Say, and watch out for too much sun on this beautiful Labor Day. :-)

      Cari
    • gerryhsp
      ... message. Thanks for noticing (and correcting) that, guys. I figured Yahoo would have set our defaults at the new settings during the conversion...but
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 2, 2002
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        --- In gnosticism2@y..., lady_caritas <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > I just reset the subject tag to read "Gnosticism2" instead
        > of "Gnosticism." We'll see if that works once I send this
        message.





        Thanks for noticing (and correcting) that, guys. I figured Yahoo
        would have set our defaults at the new settings during the
        conversion...but then, why expect consistency now... right?!

        If we could just find the settings for filtering out proselytizing
        posts, we'd be all set!

        Gerry
      • alexis johnson
        pessy@chez.com wrote: ... Self-mortification ... ditto ... ditto Klaus Schilling SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?! Come on, Klaus, it can t be as bad as
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 3, 2002
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           pessy@... wrote:

          domiati writes:
          >
          > What is the purpose of my life?

          Self-mortification

          > What is the purpose of your life?

          ditto

          > What is the purpose of our lives?

          ditto


          Klaus Schilling

           

          SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!

           

          Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.

           

          There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some help here...Why is there air?...(to blow up basketballs, of course)...let's see..."meaning"..."aim"..."life"...okay, time to get the search engine reved up and...this could take all nite!...shhhheeeeeshhhh...I'll get back to you all when I find something out.

           

          Blackfire, over and out.

           



           
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        • lady_caritas
          ... isn t there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some help here... Blackfire ~ Of course, only Klaus can explain further what he means in his
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 3, 2002
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            --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > pessy@c... wrote:
            > domiati writes:
            > >
            > > What is the purpose of my life?
            >
            > Self-mortification
            >
            > > What is the purpose of your life?
            >
            > ditto
            >
            > > What is the purpose of our lives?
            >
            > ditto
            >
            >
            > Klaus Schilling
            >
            >
            >
            > SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!
            >
            >
            >
            > Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.
            >
            >
            >
            > There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean
            isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some
            help here...


            Blackfire ~ Of course, only Klaus can explain further what he means
            in his post by "self-mortification."

            In the meantime, the following homily by Rev. Steven Marshall offers
            one perspective on "Self-Examination."

            http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ecclesia/homily_Lent1.htm

            Whether or not one agrees with Steven Marshall's point of view (with
            Jungian overtones), his words are pause for consideration.

            "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in some
            mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about
            human consciousness—there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis
            that can only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis
            not only liberates one from the attachments and snares of the world
            but also awakens a compassion for all sentient beings and a desire to
            remain and help others with the task of Self-knowledge. Liberation
            from the chains of attainment frees us from bondage to our demiurgic
            egos."

            Cari
          • wilbro99
            Reply to 6521: Alice, I was waiting to see if any other would take you up on the evolution post and along comes this. The point I was going to make there will
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 3, 2002
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              Reply to 6521:

              Alice, I was waiting to see if any other would take you up on the
              evolution post and along comes this. The point I was going to make
              there will be made here, which is that the only thing to be taken
              literally is a change in the sensate self. I have read his entire
              sermon, if sermon it be, and would agree with the general thrust of
              it, especially as captured by the part you have quoted. Of course, I
              would cast it in different terms, but that is a matter of how one
              decides to describe that which is called Gnosis, the literal part; and
              that decision is one very complicated affair as I see it.

              Here is how I would change the part you quoted: Since the demiurgic
              ego is a reflected identity, a way of grasping "me" as "me," I would
              simply say that the attachments and snares of the world are of
              self-awareness, which is why it is called self-knowledge. As you can
              see, I am limiting it to the field of cognition, and to the self to
              self relation. Since that liberation, at least as I know it, brings
              about another sense of self, that self-reflection brings another
              dimension of reflection into being. This is what I would call the
              spiritual dimension. This is what I see Kierkegaard as calling the
              spiritual, for those who have the ears to hear, that is. ----willy

              "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in some
              mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about human
              consciousness-there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis that can
              only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis not only
              liberates one from the attachments and snares of [strike(the world)]
              [self-awareness] but also awakens a compassion for all sentient beings
              and a desire to [strike(remain and)] help others with the task of
              Self-knowledge. Liberation from the chains of attainment frees us from
              bondage to our demiurgic egos."
            • incognito_lightbringer
              Klaus admires the encratites. Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine. (Maybe a visit to the local dominatrix for some flagellation) But I can t see giving up showering
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 3, 2002
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                Klaus admires the encratites.
                Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine. (Maybe a visit to the local
                dominatrix for some flagellation)
                But I can't see giving up showering ;)

                --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > pessy@c... wrote:
                > domiati writes:
                > >
                > > What is the purpose of my life?
                >
                > Self-mortification
                >
                > > What is the purpose of your life?
                >
                > ditto
                >
                > > What is the purpose of our lives?
                >
                > ditto
                >
                >
                > Klaus Schilling
                >
                >
                >
                > SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!
                >
                >
                >
                > Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.
                >
                >
                >
                > There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean
                isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some
                help here...Why is there air?...(to blow up basketballs, of
                course)...let's see..."meaning"..."aim"..."life"...okay, time to get
                the search engine reved up and...this could take all
                nite!...shhhheeeeeshhhh...I'll get back to you all when I find
                something out.
                >
                >
                >
                > Blackfire, over and out.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                >
                >
                >
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                >
                >
                >
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              • incognito_lightbringer
                What about the Cathar endura? ... I ... and ... would ... can ... some ... human ... can ... only ... world)] ... beings ... from
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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                  What about the Cathar endura?

                  --- In gnosticism2@y..., "wilbro99" <wilbro99@y...> wrote:
                  > Reply to 6521:
                  >
                  > Alice, I was waiting to see if any other would take you up on the
                  > evolution post and along comes this. The point I was going to make
                  > there will be made here, which is that the only thing to be taken
                  > literally is a change in the sensate self. I have read his entire
                  > sermon, if sermon it be, and would agree with the general thrust of
                  > it, especially as captured by the part you have quoted. Of course,
                  I
                  > would cast it in different terms, but that is a matter of how one
                  > decides to describe that which is called Gnosis, the literal part;
                  and
                  > that decision is one very complicated affair as I see it.
                  >
                  > Here is how I would change the part you quoted: Since the demiurgic
                  > ego is a reflected identity, a way of grasping "me" as "me," I
                  would
                  > simply say that the attachments and snares of the world are of
                  > self-awareness, which is why it is called self-knowledge. As you
                  can
                  > see, I am limiting it to the field of cognition, and to the self to
                  > self relation. Since that liberation, at least as I know it, brings
                  > about another sense of self, that self-reflection brings another
                  > dimension of reflection into being. This is what I would call the
                  > spiritual dimension. This is what I see Kierkegaard as calling the
                  > spiritual, for those who have the ears to hear, that is. ----willy
                  >
                  > "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in
                  some
                  > mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about
                  human
                  > consciousness-there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis that
                  can
                  > only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis not
                  only
                  > liberates one from the attachments and snares of [strike(the
                  world)]
                  > [self-awareness] but also awakens a compassion for all sentient
                  beings
                  > and a desire to [strike(remain and)] help others with the task of
                  > Self-knowledge. Liberation from the chains of attainment frees us
                  from
                  > bondage to our demiurgic egos."
                • pessy@chez.com
                  ... Wine extends to all strongly psychoactive materials, like shrooms, coffee, and LSD. ... that s anti-encratite as well Klaus Schilling
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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                    incognito_lightbringer writes:
                    > Klaus admires the encratites.
                    > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.

                    'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
                    like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.

                    > (Maybe a visit to the local
                    > dominatrix for some flagellation)

                    that's anti-encratite as well

                    Klaus Schilling
                  • pessy@chez.com
                    ... Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of mortification of the Thelema. Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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                      incognito_lightbringer writes:
                      > What about the Cathar endura?

                      Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of
                      mortification of the Thelema.
                      Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a form of
                      affirmation of the Thelema, with very rare exceptions
                      like those of Philip Mainlaender and Mario de Sa'-Carneiro
                      This has been shown e.g. by A. Schopenhauer's
                      "Welt als Wille und Vorstellung"


                      Klaus Schilling
                    • beautiful2afault
                      i got this far. Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah. The term Worship covers all acts of obedience to Allah and had to comment. without going
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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                        i got this far. "
                        Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah. The
                        term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah"

                        and had to comment.

                        without going into the formation of my thought. when the individual
                        must be brought to obedience the situation is in a far cry.

                        several things going on.

                        there is love and equality,
                        respect and honor
                        and finally obedience

                        it would seem to me that obedience is a far cry from love
                        but a good start for those who cannot fathom love especially one for
                        the other in any or all social or personal perspective.

                        so yes, by all means come up to a level of obedience if that means
                        civil conduct toward others. then try for higher levels of
                        existence. respect and honor, love and equality.

                        when i have to bend to obidence. i have left the platue of love and
                        respect.

                        of course following obidence can prevent a bunch of pain and
                        suffering in just doing what is told and said to do. like a
                        thougtless process not needing or wanting more. cause all should be
                        fulfilled from the sheer obidence of all acts in according to some
                        one elses and god's thinking.

                        well i don't think so. if you are without love or respect or the
                        inabiltiy to develop such. then by all means. strive for obidence.

                        and our world will be a better place. but don't force your thinking
                        upon ones who love god and try to love one another in the same breath.

                        understand this? understand this and the world will come to better.
                        if you don't understand this. then do strive toward obey toward god
                        and maybe some form of love.


                        beautiful2afault

                        --- In gnosticism2@y..., "domiati" <domiati@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > What is the purpose of my life? What is the purpose of your life?
                        > What is the purpose of our lives? Such questions occur frequently
                        to
                        > thingking people.
                        >
                        > People answer these questions in different ways. Some people
                        believe
                        > the purpose of life is getting wealthy. But these people what their
                        > purpose be after they have collected millions of dollars. So What?
                        > And then What? What will be their purpose after they get these
                        > millions of dollars? If the purpose of life is to become wealthy,
                        > there will be no purpose after becoming wealthy. And in fact, here
                        > comes the problem of some disbelievers or misbelievers. In some
                        > stages of their life. When they are collecting money is the target
                        of
                        > life. When they collected the money which they have dreamt of,
                        their
                        > life losses purpose and they live in tension and restlessness and
                        > suffer from the panic of nothingness.
                        >
                        > Can Wealth be an Aim?
                        >
                        > We often hear of a millionaire committing suicide. Sometimes, not
                        the
                        > millionaire himself but his wife, son, or daughter. The question is
                        > this: can aiming at wealth bring happiness to the individual? In
                        most
                        > cases the answer is NO. Is the purpose of collecting wealth is a
                        > standing purpose? As we know, the child of five years does not look
                        > for wealth: he prepares a toy to a million dollars. The adolescent
                        of
                        > eighteen does not dream of wealth because he is busy with more
                        > important things. The old man of ninety years does not care for
                        > money, he is worried more about his health. This proves that wealth
                        > cannot be a standing purpose in all the stages of the individual's
                        > life.
                        >
                        > Wealth can do a little to bring happiness to a disbeliever, because
                        a
                        > disbeliever is not sure about his end or his fate. A disbeliever
                        does
                        > not know the purpose of life. And if he has a purpose, this purpose
                        > is doomed to be temporary or self destructive.
                        >
                        > What is the use of wealth to a disbeliever if he feels scared of
                        the
                        > end and skeptical of everything. A disbeliever may gain a lot of
                        > money, but surely loses himself.
                        >
                        > Worshipping Allah as an Aim
                        >
                        > On the contrary, faith in Allah gives the believer the purpose of
                        > life he needs. In Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah.
                        The
                        > term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah.
                        >
                        > The Islamic purpose of life is a standing purpose. The true Muslim
                        > sticks to this purpose throughout all the stages of his life,
                        whether
                        > he is a child, adolescent, adult, or an old man.
                        >
                        > Worshipping Allah makes life purposeful and meaning especially with
                        > the framework of Islam. According to Islam this worldly life is
                        just
                        > a short stage of our life. Then there is the other life. The first
                        > life and the second life are by the death stage, which is a
                        > transitory stage of the second life. The type of the second life a
                        > person deserves depends on his deeds in the first life. At the end
                        of
                        > the death stage comes the day of judgment On this day, Allah
                        rewards
                        > or punishes people according to their deeds in the first life.
                        >
                        > The First Life as an Examination
                        >
                        > So Islam looks at the first life as an examination of man. The
                        death
                        > stage is similar to a rest period after the test, i. e., after the
                        > first life. The Day of Judgment is similar to the day of announcing
                        > the results of the examines. The second life is the time when each
                        > examinee enjoys or suffers from the outcome of his behaviour during
                        > the test period.
                        >
                        > In Islam, the line of life is clear, simple, and logical: the first
                        > life, death then the Day of Judgement, and then the second life.
                        With
                        > this clear line of life, the Muslim has a clear purpose in life.
                        The
                        > Muslims knows he is created by Allah. The Muslim knows he is going
                        to
                        > spend some years in this first life, during which he has to obey
                        God,
                        > because God will question him and hold him responsible for his
                        deeds,
                        > whether done publicly or privately, because Allah knows all deeds
                        of
                        > all people. The Muslim knows that his deeds in the first life will
                        > determine the type of his second life. The Muslim knows that this
                        > first life is very short one, one hundred years, more or less,
                        > whereas the second life is an eternal one.
                        >
                        > The Eternity of the second Life
                        >
                        > This concept of the eternity of the second life has a tremendous
                        > effect on a Muslim during his first life, habecause the Muslims
                        > believes that his first life determines the shape of his second
                        life.
                        > In addition, this determines shape of his second life. In addition,
                        > this determination will be through the Judgement of Allah, the All
                        > just and Almighty.
                        >
                        > With this belief in the second life and the Day of Judgement, the
                        > Muslim's life becomes as purposeful as possible and as meaningful
                        as
                        > possible. The Muslim's standing purpose is to go to Paradise in the
                        > second life.
                        >
                        > In other words, the Muslim's permanent purpose is to obey Allah, to
                        > summit to Allah to summit to Allah, to carry out His orders, and to
                        > keep in continues touch with Him through prayer (five times a day),
                        > through fasting (one month a year), through charity (as often as
                        > possible), and through pilgrimage (once in one's life).
                        >
                        > The need For a Permanent Purpose
                        >
                        > Disbelievers have purposes in their lives such as collecting money
                        > and property, indulging sex, eating, and dancing. But all these
                        > purposes are passing ones. All these purposes come and go, go up
                        and
                        > down. Money comes and goes. Health comes and goes. Sexual
                        activities
                        > cannot continue forever. All these lusts for money, food and sex
                        > cannot answer the individual's questions to himself: so what? Then
                        > What?
                        >
                        > However, Islam saves the Muslims from trouble of asking the
                        question,
                        > because Islam makes it clear to the Muslim, from the very
                        beginning,
                        > that the permanent purpose of the Muslim, in this life is to obey
                        > Allah in order to go to Paradise in the second life.
                        >
                        > We should know that the only way for our salvation in this life and
                        > in the hereafter is to know for sure our Lord who created us,
                        believe
                        > in Him, and worship Him alone.
                        >
                        > We should also know our Prophet whom Allah had sent to all mankind,
                        > believe in Him and follow Him. We should, know the religion of
                        truth
                        > which our Lord has commanded us to believe in, and practice it..
                        >
                        > Those in search of truth
                        >
                        > Who have an open mind and heart,
                        >
                        > Islamic Education Foundation
                        >
                        > Welcome You.
                        >
                        > Objectives: -
                        >
                        > To Convey the message of Islam
                        >
                        > To Educate Muslims aboof Islam
                        >
                        > To keep in close contact with new Muslims.
                        >
                        > Activities:
                        >
                        > Offering Courses and presenting lectures about Islam in several
                        > languages.
                        >
                        > Teaching Islam and Arabic.
                        >
                        > Teaching new Muslims to receive the Holy Quran.
                        >
                        > Helping Non- Muslims embrace Islam and complete the required
                        > procedures.
                        >
                        >
                        > What is the purpose of my life? What is the purpose of your life?
                        > What is the purpose of our lives? Such questions occur frequently
                        to
                        > thingking people.
                        >
                        > People answer these questions in different ways. Some people
                        believe
                        > the purpose of life is getting wealthy. But these people what their
                        > purpose be after they have collected millions of dollars. So What?
                        > And then What? What will be their purpose after they get these
                        > millions of dollars? If the purpose of life is to become wealthy,
                        > there will be no purpose after becoming wealthy. And in fact, here
                        > comes the problem of some disbelievers or misbelievers. In some
                        > stages of their life. When they are collecting money is the target
                        of
                        > life. When they collected the money which they have dreamt of,
                        their
                        > life losses purpose and they live in tension and restlessness and
                        > suffer from the panic of nothingness.
                        >
                        > Can Wealth be an Aim?
                        >
                        > We often hear of a millionaire committing suicide. Sometimes, not
                        the
                        > millionaire himself but his wife, son, or daughter. The question is
                        > this: can aiming at wealth bring happiness to the individual? In
                        most
                        > cases the answer is NO. Is the purpose of collecting wealth is a
                        > standing purpose? As we know, the child of five years does not look
                        > for wealth: he prepares a toy to a million dollars. The adolescent
                        of
                        > eighteen does not dream of wealth because he is busy with more
                        > important things. The old man of ninety years does not care for
                        > money, he is worried more about his health. This proves that wealth
                        > cannot be a standing purpose in all the stages of the individual's
                        > life.
                        >
                        > Wealth can do a little to bring happiness to a disbeliever, because
                        a
                        > disbeliever is not sure about his end or his fate. A disbeliever
                        does
                        > not know the purpose of life. And if he has a purpose, this purpose
                        > is doomed to be temporary or self destructive.
                        >
                        > What is the use of wealth to a disbeliever if he feels scared of
                        the
                        > end and skeptical of everything. A disbeliever may gain a lot of
                        > money, but surely loses himself.
                        >
                        > Worshipping Allah as an Aim
                        >
                        > On the contrary, faith in Allah gives the believer the purpose of
                        > life he needs. In Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah.
                        The
                        > term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah.
                        >
                        > The Islamic purpose of life is a standing purpose. The true Muslim
                        > sticks to this purpose throughout all the stages of his life,
                        whether
                        > he is a child, adolescent, adult, or an old man.
                        >
                        > Worshipping Allah makes life purposeful and meaning especially with
                        > the framework of Islam. According to Islam this worldly life is
                        just
                        > a short stage of our life. Then there is the other life. The first
                        > life and the second life are by the death stage, which is a
                        > transitory stage of the second life. The type of the second life a
                        > person deserves depends on his deeds in the first life. At the end
                        of
                        > the death stage comes the day of judgment On this day, Allah
                        rewards
                        > or punishes people according to their deeds in the first life.
                        >
                        > The First Life as an Examination
                        >
                        > So Islam looks at the first life as an examination of man. The
                        death
                        > stage is similar to a rest period after the test, i. e., after the
                        > first life. The Day of Judgment is similar to the day of announcing
                        > the results of the examines. The second life is the time when each
                        > examinee enjoys or suffers from the outcome of his behaviour during
                        > the test period.
                        >
                        > In Islam, the line of life is clear, simple, and logical: the first
                        > life, death then the Day of Judgement, and then the second life.
                        With
                        > this clear line of life, the Muslim has a clear purpose in life.
                        The
                        > Muslims knows he is created by Allah. The Muslim knows he is going
                        to
                        > spend some years in this first life, during which he has to obey
                        God,
                        > because God will question him and hold him responsible for his
                        deeds,
                        > whether done publicly or privately, because Allah knows all deeds
                        of
                        > all people. The Muslim knows that his deeds in the first life will
                        > determine the type of his second life. The Muslim knows that this
                        > first life is very short one, one hundred years, more or less,
                        > whereas the second life is an eternal one.
                        >
                        > The Eternity of the second Life
                        >
                        > This concept of the eternity of the second life has a tremendous
                        > effect on a Muslim during his first life, habecause the Muslims
                        > believes that his first life determines the shape of his second
                        life.
                        > In addition, this determines shape of his second life. In addition,
                        > this determination will be through the Judgement of Allah, the All
                        > just and Almighty.
                        >
                        > With this belief in the second life and the Day of Judgement, the
                        > Muslim's life becomes as purposeful as possible and as meaningful
                        as
                        > possible. The Muslim's standing purpose is to go to Paradise in the
                        > second life.
                        >
                        > In other words, the Muslim's permanent purpose is to obey Allah, to
                        > summit to Allah to summit to Allah, to carry out His orders, and to
                        > keep in continues touch with Him through prayer (five times a day),
                        > through fasting (one month a year), through charity (as often as
                        > possible), and through pilgrimage (once in one's life).
                        >
                        > The need For a Permanent Purpose
                        >
                        > Disbelievers have purposes in their lives such as collecting money
                        > and property, indulging sex, eating, and dancing. But all these
                        > purposes are passing ones. All these purposes come and go, go up
                        and
                        > down. Money comes and goes. Health comes and goes. Sexual
                        activities
                        > cannot continue forever. All these lusts for money, food and sex
                        > cannot answer the individual's questions to himself: so what? Then
                        > What?
                        >
                        > However, Islam saves the Muslims from trouble of asking the
                        question,
                        > because Islam makes it clear to the Muslim, from the very
                        beginning,
                        > that the permanent purpose of the Muslim, in this life is to obey
                        > Allah in order to go to Paradise in the second life.
                        >
                        > We should know that the only way for our salvation in this life and
                        > in the hereafter is to know for sure our Lord who created us,
                        believe
                        > in Him, and worship Him alone.
                        >
                        > We should also know our Prophet whom Allah had sent to all mankind,
                        > believe in Him and follow Him. We should, know the religion of
                        truth
                        > which our Lord has commanded us to believe in, and practice it..
                        >
                        > Those in search of truth
                        >
                        > Who have an open mind and heart,
                        >
                        > Islamic Education Foundation
                        >
                        > Welcome You.
                        >
                        > Objectives: -
                        >
                        > To Convey the message of Islam
                        >
                        > To Educate Muslims aboof Islam
                        >
                        > To keep in close contact with new Muslims.
                        >
                        > Activities:
                        >
                        > Offering Courses and presenting lectures about Islam in several
                        > languages.
                        >
                        > Teaching Islam and Arabic.
                        >
                        > Teaching new Muslims to receive the Holy Quran.
                        >
                        > Helping Non- Muslims embrace Islam and complete the required
                        > procedures.
                      • beautiful2afault
                        it was not that religion was hijacked but love love was hijacked by relgion and conformed squashed into the some human understanding for that particular time
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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                          it was not that religion was hijacked but love

                          love was hijacked by relgion and conformed squashed into the
                          some human understanding for that particular time and age.

                          don't do this, do do that, and all the rules associated with control
                          because humanity can not seem to control their own sexual and
                          emotional aims.

                          ah the procreation of our loins
                          may it be civil, may it be love, may it be consentual.

                          beautiful2afault


                          --- In gnosticism2@y..., Coraxo <coraxo@e...> wrote:
                          > However;
                          >
                          > there appears to be an administrative problem with the list.
                          >
                          > I am on this "gnosticism2@y..." list and another
                          > "gnosticism@y...".
                          >
                          > Now both lists are using "[Gnosticism]" in the subject line of
                          posts that go
                          > out.
                          >
                          > I was thinking in my reply to the spam from 'Domiati" that this was
                          going to
                          > the latter list not this one.
                          >
                          > Could perhaps some way of distinguishing in the subject line be
                          madeto make
                          > the reference list more easily identifiable?
                          >
                          > My response to Domiati had more relevance on the other gnosticism
                          list since
                          > some cursory study of the soteriology of the Imamate had been
                          broached -
                          > however I do not think this list has had that subject as topic, or
                          if so, it
                          > did not develop.
                          >
                          > So my response to Domiati's spam post is probably somewhat
                          dissonant here
                          > since there is no post history on Islam recently.
                          >
                          > Is it possible that one of the two "[Gnosticism]" clubs could use
                          some
                          > modifier to make the subject line distinguishable between the two?
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > Corax
                          >
                          >
                          > From: pessy@c...
                          > Reply-To: gnosticism2@y...
                          > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 18:05:27 +0200
                          > To: gnosticism2@y...
                          > Subject: Re: [Gnosticism] ISLAM AND THE AsIM OF LIFE
                          >
                          >
                          > Coraxo writes:
                          > > The problem is that Islam was hijacked
                          >
                          > like all the larger religions
                          >
                          > Klaus Schilling
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@y...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                        • lady_caritas
                          ... Notwithstanding past discussions in our group as to whether Cathars considered the sacrament of Consolamentum to be of ultimate significance in liberation
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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                            --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
                            > incognito_lightbringer writes:
                            > > What about the Cathar endura?
                            >
                            > Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of
                            > mortification of the Thelema.
                            > Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a form of
                            > affirmation of the Thelema, with very rare exceptions
                            > like those of Philip Mainlaender and Mario de Sa'-Carneiro
                            > This has been shown e.g. by A. Schopenhauer's
                            > "Welt als Wille und Vorstellung"
                            >
                            >
                            > Klaus Schilling

                            Notwithstanding past discussions in our group as to whether Cathars
                            considered the sacrament of Consolamentum to be of ultimate
                            significance in liberation instead of Gnosis in their soteriology,
                            the Cathar endura was nonetheless according to the author in the
                            following link,
                            "… not attested in early Catharist sources, but, it does appear to
                            have been a practice among the late (and extremely peculiar) Cathars
                            of Montaillou in the fourteenth century. Much in their beliefs and
                            practices is unusual, and although Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie's account,
                            _Montaillou_, is perhaps the most widely known work on the Cathars,
                            neither it, nor the heretics it describes can be taken as typical."

                            http://www.gnosis.org/consolamentum.html

                            As to one view on Schopenhauer ~

                            http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/schopenbio.html#_dieweltalswilleund
                            vorstellung

                            "Within philosophy itself, Schopenhauer is important for having
                            broken with his Idealist contemporaries both in espousing a down-to-
                            earth materialism and in forsaking philosophic jargon in favor of a
                            limpid and vigorous literary style. He put forward a metaphysics of
                            the will which approached life in concrete terms (his psychological
                            insights often anticipate Freud) and resulted in a pessimistic
                            attitude to the cosmos. Schopenhauer held that there are two ways to
                            combat the tyranny of the will. The first is through art, at its most
                            exalted in music; it is this aspect that entitles him to be thought
                            of as the exemplarily Romantic philosopher, expounding (in Thomas
                            Mann's phrase) a `Künstlerphilosophie [artist's philosophy] par
                            excellence.' The second path lies in an ethic of asceticism and self-
                            overcoming; Schopenhauer was one of the first Western thinkers to
                            take seriously Hindu and Buddhist philosophy."

                            and

                            "But art offers only a temporary exit from the phenomenal world--the
                            world of suffering, of practical affairs, of causal determinism. The
                            more lasting path is not aesthetic but ethical. The individual,
                            Schopenhauer argues, ought to overcome the chains of desire that
                            enslave him to the will; the ideal is disillusioned, ascetic turning
                            away from the world. It would be better not to have been born; yet
                            suicide is a mistake, since it rules out the possibility of self-
                            overcoming."

                            Cari
                          • alexis johnson
                            An interesting read. Cari, although as for the Diabola est Deus Inversus , I ve recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
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                              An interesting read. Cari, although as for the "Diabola est Deus Inversus", I've recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky waiting for the lightning bolt to strike).

                               

                              Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both?  I once wrote a poem about "God and the Devil dancing around me trading off masks" so I was never sure who was who or what was what.

                              Blackfire

                               lady_caritas wrote:

                              --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >  pessy@c... wrote:
                              > domiati writes:
                              > >
                              > > What is the purpose of my life?
                              >
                              > Self-mortification
                              >
                              > > What is the purpose of your life?
                              >
                              > ditto
                              >
                              > > What is the purpose of our lives?
                              >
                              > ditto
                              >
                              >
                              > Klaus Schilling
                              >

                              >
                              > SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!
                              >

                              >
                              > Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.
                              >

                              >
                              > There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean
                              isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some
                              help here...


                              Blackfire ~ Of course, only Klaus can explain further what he means
                              in his post by "self-mortification."

                              In the meantime, the following homily by Rev. Steven Marshall offers
                              one perspective on "Self-Examination."

                              http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ecclesia/homily_Lent1.htm

                              Whether or not one agrees with Steven Marshall's point of view (with
                              Jungian overtones), his words are pause for consideration.

                              "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in some
                              mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about
                              human consciousness�there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis
                              that can only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis
                              not only liberates one from the attachments and snares of the world
                              but also awakens a compassion for all sentient beings and a desire to
                              remain and help others with the task of Self-knowledge. Liberation
                              from the chains of attainment frees us from bondage to our demiurgic
                              egos."

                              Cari




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                            • incognito_lightbringer
                              Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when you re rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with milk and honey? (I hate
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
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                                Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when
                                you're rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with
                                milk and honey? (I hate to even ask about chocolate, the Inca kings
                                drank 100 cups a day of that stuff).
                                Klaus, are you a Mormon?
                                Hoeller tells an amusing story in one of his lectures how the Mormons
                                came to Austria to convert the locals. His mother was complaining
                                that they wanted everyone to give coffee up, and that just wouldn't
                                do. They didn't have a very successful mission.

                                --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
                                > incognito_lightbringer writes:
                                > > Klaus admires the encratites.
                                > > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.
                                >
                                > 'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
                                > like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.
                                >
                                > > (Maybe a visit to the local
                                > > dominatrix for some flagellation)
                                >
                                > that's anti-encratite as well
                                >
                                > Klaus Schilling
                              • pessy@chez.com
                                ... No way. Morons violate celibacy and veganism without even a glimpse of malconscience. They even justify marriage and procreation. *vomit* They also deny
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
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                                  incognito_lightbringer writes:

                                  > Klaus, are you a Mormon?

                                  No way.
                                  Morons violate celibacy and veganism
                                  without even a glimpse of malconscience.
                                  They even justify marriage and procreation. *vomit*
                                  They also deny palingenetic reincarnation.
                                  In addition, they are against docetism.
                                  On top of all, they are personalistic theists.
                                  They also deny the inherent evilness of creation.
                                  So I'm nowhere near the Morons,
                                  even scored 0% in the belief-o-matic test.

                                  Klaus Schilling
                                • lady_caritas
                                  Heh, heh. Incognito, I sit here finally with my first cup of coffee of the day (even though I ve been up and busy for over three hours already) to read again
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
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                                    Heh, heh. Incognito, I sit here finally with my first cup of coffee
                                    of the day (even though I've been up and busy for over three hours
                                    already) to read again through various thoughtful responses from
                                    members to my evolutionary quandary.

                                    Be back later when I attempt to put some thoughts together,
                                    influenced though they may be by ingestion of this "strongly
                                    psychoactive" drink.

                                    And, Klaus, I just read your most recent post. Your spelling
                                    of "Mormons" was surely just a typographical error? And, although
                                    you are certainly entitled to your lifestyle, I'll try to ignore
                                    the "vomit" comment, too.

                                    Cheers,
                                    Cari :-)


                                    --- In gnosticism2@y..., incognito_lightbringer <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    > Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when
                                    > you're rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with
                                    > milk and honey? (I hate to even ask about chocolate, the Inca kings
                                    > drank 100 cups a day of that stuff).
                                    > Klaus, are you a Mormon?
                                    > Hoeller tells an amusing story in one of his lectures how the
                                    Mormons
                                    > came to Austria to convert the locals. His mother was complaining
                                    > that they wanted everyone to give coffee up, and that just wouldn't
                                    > do. They didn't have a very successful mission.
                                    >
                                    > --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
                                    > > incognito_lightbringer writes:
                                    > > > Klaus admires the encratites.
                                    > > > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.
                                    > >
                                    > > 'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
                                    > > like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.
                                    > >
                                    > > > (Maybe a visit to the local
                                    > > > dominatrix for some flagellation)
                                    > >
                                    > > that's anti-encratite as well
                                    > >
                                    > > Klaus Schilling
                                  • lady_caritas
                                    ... Inversus , I ve recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky waiting for the lightning
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
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                                      --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > An interesting read. Cari, although as for the "Diabola est Deus
                                      Inversus", I've recently come to the conclusion that God and the
                                      Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky
                                      waiting for the lightning bolt to strike).
                                      >
                                      > Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both? I once wrote a poem
                                      about "God and the Devil dancing around me trading off masks" so I
                                      was never sure who was who or what was what.
                                      > Blackfire

                                      Do you still have the poem? It sounds interesting.

                                      Anyway, Blackfire, in Gnostic mythology the deity who created the
                                      material world is not the same as the True God or Bythos. The
                                      mythological creator god takes on a range of characteristics from
                                      evil (Sethian) to a more foolish, capricious deity (Valentinian)
                                      depending on the Gnostic school.

                                      The article in this link will give you an introduction to the
                                      Demiurge in Valentinianism ~

                                      http://www.cyberus.ca/~brons/demiurge.htm
                                      from the text:
                                      ".. the Demiurge in Valentinianism is quite different in character
                                      from the hostile creator figure familiar from other schools of
                                      Gnosticism. In the Sethian school, for example, the Demiurge is a
                                      hostile demonic force who creates the material world in order to trap
                                      the spiritual elements. In contrast, Valentinians "show a relatively
                                      positive attitude towards the craftsman of the world or god of
                                      Israel" (Layton 1987). Valentinians insisted that while the Demiurge
                                      may be a bit foolish, he certainly could not be considered evil.
                                      Instead, he has a role to play in the process of redemption."

                                      Cari
                                    • pessy@chez.com
                                      ... Both the demiurge and the devil are Archons, nowhere near the Divine. Klaus Schilling
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Sep 6, 2002
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                                        alexis johnson writes:

                                        >
                                        > Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both?

                                        Both the demiurge and the devil are Archons, nowhere near the Divine.

                                        Klaus Schilling
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