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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: " [Gnosticism] "

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  • Coraxo
    Thanks Caritas- the new tag comes out quite nicely, although you could have taken pride of place by setting it as ... [Gnosticism1] ..I mean why take seconds,
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 2, 2002
      Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: " [Gnosticism] " Thanks Caritas- the new tag comes out quite nicely, although you could have taken pride of place by setting it as ..."[Gnosticism1]"..I mean why take seconds, right?

      Although it is ultimately my responsibility as a writer to check and make certain what list I am responding to the modification does help my increasingly sun-burned noggin to sort things out better.

      So not really an "administrative" problem on your end - the problem really was mine  insofar as I am able to organize my reading and writing materials.

      But I appreciate the assistance :-D

      Corax



      From: lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      Reply-To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 18:27:29 -0000
      To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: " [Gnosticism] "


      --- In gnosticism2@y..., Coraxo <coraxo@e...> wrote:
      > However;
      >
      > there appears to be an administrative problem with the list.
      >
      > I am on this "gnosticism2@y..."  list and another
      > "gnosticism@y...".
      >
      > Now both lists are using "[Gnosticism]" in the subject line of
      posts that go
      > out.

      <snip>

      > Is it possible that one of the two "[Gnosticism]" clubs could use
      some
      > modifier to make the subject line distinguishable between the two?
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Corax

      An administrative problem?  Gosh, I hope not.  If so, it's hopefully
      one that can be remedied.  ;-)

      I just reset the subject tag to read "Gnosticism2" instead
      of "Gnosticism."  We'll see if that works once I send this message.  
      Our list used to be called "Gnosticism" while we were still in the
      club format.  Once we switched to groups, Yahoo changed our name
      to "Gnosticism2" in addition to unfortunately "losing" a major
      portion of our message archives.  Not changing the subject tag was
      obviously an oversight, one that we wouldn't have expected to cause a
      problem.

      But, thanks, Corax, for letting us know.  I hope I've fixed the
      problem for those responding from their email accounts instead of
      directly posting at the group.

      Always good to *see* you.

      Cari


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    • lady_caritas
      ... could have ... why take ... and make ... really ... materials. ... Oh, my pleasure, Corax. Thanks for responding so quickly. It is certainly not your
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 2, 2002
        --- In gnosticism2@y..., Coraxo <coraxo@e...> wrote:
        > Thanks Caritas- the new tag comes out quite nicely, although you
        could have
        > taken pride of place by setting it as ..."[Gnosticism1]"..I mean
        why take
        > seconds, right?
        >
        > Although it is ultimately my responsibility as a writer to check
        and make
        > certain what list I am responding to the modification does help my
        > increasingly sun-burned noggin to sort things out better.
        >
        > So not really an "administrative" problem on your end - the problem
        really
        > was mine insofar as I am able to organize my reading and writing
        materials.
        >
        > But I appreciate the assistance :-D
        >
        > Corax

        Oh, my pleasure, Corax. Thanks for responding so quickly. It is
        certainly not your problem either, by any means. One so
        knowledgeable and prolific as you should have help from all sources
        to maintain your organization. Gnosticism1? Ah, that's a thought,
        but, hey, ... nah, too much more editing involved. lol

        Say, and watch out for too much sun on this beautiful Labor Day. :-)

        Cari
      • gerryhsp
        ... message. Thanks for noticing (and correcting) that, guys. I figured Yahoo would have set our defaults at the new settings during the conversion...but
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 2, 2002
          --- In gnosticism2@y..., lady_caritas <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > I just reset the subject tag to read "Gnosticism2" instead
          > of "Gnosticism." We'll see if that works once I send this
          message.





          Thanks for noticing (and correcting) that, guys. I figured Yahoo
          would have set our defaults at the new settings during the
          conversion...but then, why expect consistency now... right?!

          If we could just find the settings for filtering out proselytizing
          posts, we'd be all set!

          Gerry
        • alexis johnson
          pessy@chez.com wrote: ... Self-mortification ... ditto ... ditto Klaus Schilling SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?! Come on, Klaus, it can t be as bad as
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 3, 2002

             pessy@... wrote:

            domiati writes:
            >
            > What is the purpose of my life?

            Self-mortification

            > What is the purpose of your life?

            ditto

            > What is the purpose of our lives?

            ditto


            Klaus Schilling

             

            SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!

             

            Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.

             

            There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some help here...Why is there air?...(to blow up basketballs, of course)...let's see..."meaning"..."aim"..."life"...okay, time to get the search engine reved up and...this could take all nite!...shhhheeeeeshhhh...I'll get back to you all when I find something out.

             

            Blackfire, over and out.

             



             
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          • lady_caritas
            ... isn t there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some help here... Blackfire ~ Of course, only Klaus can explain further what he means in his
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 3, 2002
              --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > pessy@c... wrote:
              > domiati writes:
              > >
              > > What is the purpose of my life?
              >
              > Self-mortification
              >
              > > What is the purpose of your life?
              >
              > ditto
              >
              > > What is the purpose of our lives?
              >
              > ditto
              >
              >
              > Klaus Schilling
              >
              >
              >
              > SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!
              >
              >
              >
              > Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.
              >
              >
              >
              > There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean
              isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some
              help here...


              Blackfire ~ Of course, only Klaus can explain further what he means
              in his post by "self-mortification."

              In the meantime, the following homily by Rev. Steven Marshall offers
              one perspective on "Self-Examination."

              http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ecclesia/homily_Lent1.htm

              Whether or not one agrees with Steven Marshall's point of view (with
              Jungian overtones), his words are pause for consideration.

              "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in some
              mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about
              human consciousness—there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis
              that can only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis
              not only liberates one from the attachments and snares of the world
              but also awakens a compassion for all sentient beings and a desire to
              remain and help others with the task of Self-knowledge. Liberation
              from the chains of attainment frees us from bondage to our demiurgic
              egos."

              Cari
            • wilbro99
              Reply to 6521: Alice, I was waiting to see if any other would take you up on the evolution post and along comes this. The point I was going to make there will
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 3, 2002
                Reply to 6521:

                Alice, I was waiting to see if any other would take you up on the
                evolution post and along comes this. The point I was going to make
                there will be made here, which is that the only thing to be taken
                literally is a change in the sensate self. I have read his entire
                sermon, if sermon it be, and would agree with the general thrust of
                it, especially as captured by the part you have quoted. Of course, I
                would cast it in different terms, but that is a matter of how one
                decides to describe that which is called Gnosis, the literal part; and
                that decision is one very complicated affair as I see it.

                Here is how I would change the part you quoted: Since the demiurgic
                ego is a reflected identity, a way of grasping "me" as "me," I would
                simply say that the attachments and snares of the world are of
                self-awareness, which is why it is called self-knowledge. As you can
                see, I am limiting it to the field of cognition, and to the self to
                self relation. Since that liberation, at least as I know it, brings
                about another sense of self, that self-reflection brings another
                dimension of reflection into being. This is what I would call the
                spiritual dimension. This is what I see Kierkegaard as calling the
                spiritual, for those who have the ears to hear, that is. ----willy

                "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in some
                mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about human
                consciousness-there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis that can
                only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis not only
                liberates one from the attachments and snares of [strike(the world)]
                [self-awareness] but also awakens a compassion for all sentient beings
                and a desire to [strike(remain and)] help others with the task of
                Self-knowledge. Liberation from the chains of attainment frees us from
                bondage to our demiurgic egos."
              • incognito_lightbringer
                Klaus admires the encratites. Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine. (Maybe a visit to the local dominatrix for some flagellation) But I can t see giving up showering
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 3, 2002
                  Klaus admires the encratites.
                  Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine. (Maybe a visit to the local
                  dominatrix for some flagellation)
                  But I can't see giving up showering ;)

                  --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > pessy@c... wrote:
                  > domiati writes:
                  > >
                  > > What is the purpose of my life?
                  >
                  > Self-mortification
                  >
                  > > What is the purpose of your life?
                  >
                  > ditto
                  >
                  > > What is the purpose of our lives?
                  >
                  > ditto
                  >
                  >
                  > Klaus Schilling
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean
                  isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some
                  help here...Why is there air?...(to blow up basketballs, of
                  course)...let's see..."meaning"..."aim"..."life"...okay, time to get
                  the search engine reved up and...this could take all
                  nite!...shhhheeeeeshhhh...I'll get back to you all when I find
                  something out.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Blackfire, over and out.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                • incognito_lightbringer
                  What about the Cathar endura? ... I ... and ... would ... can ... some ... human ... can ... only ... world)] ... beings ... from
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
                    What about the Cathar endura?

                    --- In gnosticism2@y..., "wilbro99" <wilbro99@y...> wrote:
                    > Reply to 6521:
                    >
                    > Alice, I was waiting to see if any other would take you up on the
                    > evolution post and along comes this. The point I was going to make
                    > there will be made here, which is that the only thing to be taken
                    > literally is a change in the sensate self. I have read his entire
                    > sermon, if sermon it be, and would agree with the general thrust of
                    > it, especially as captured by the part you have quoted. Of course,
                    I
                    > would cast it in different terms, but that is a matter of how one
                    > decides to describe that which is called Gnosis, the literal part;
                    and
                    > that decision is one very complicated affair as I see it.
                    >
                    > Here is how I would change the part you quoted: Since the demiurgic
                    > ego is a reflected identity, a way of grasping "me" as "me," I
                    would
                    > simply say that the attachments and snares of the world are of
                    > self-awareness, which is why it is called self-knowledge. As you
                    can
                    > see, I am limiting it to the field of cognition, and to the self to
                    > self relation. Since that liberation, at least as I know it, brings
                    > about another sense of self, that self-reflection brings another
                    > dimension of reflection into being. This is what I would call the
                    > spiritual dimension. This is what I see Kierkegaard as calling the
                    > spiritual, for those who have the ears to hear, that is. ----willy
                    >
                    > "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in
                    some
                    > mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about
                    human
                    > consciousness-there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis that
                    can
                    > only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis not
                    only
                    > liberates one from the attachments and snares of [strike(the
                    world)]
                    > [self-awareness] but also awakens a compassion for all sentient
                    beings
                    > and a desire to [strike(remain and)] help others with the task of
                    > Self-knowledge. Liberation from the chains of attainment frees us
                    from
                    > bondage to our demiurgic egos."
                  • pessy@chez.com
                    ... Wine extends to all strongly psychoactive materials, like shrooms, coffee, and LSD. ... that s anti-encratite as well Klaus Schilling
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
                      incognito_lightbringer writes:
                      > Klaus admires the encratites.
                      > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.

                      'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
                      like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.

                      > (Maybe a visit to the local
                      > dominatrix for some flagellation)

                      that's anti-encratite as well

                      Klaus Schilling
                    • pessy@chez.com
                      ... Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of mortification of the Thelema. Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
                        incognito_lightbringer writes:
                        > What about the Cathar endura?

                        Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of
                        mortification of the Thelema.
                        Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a form of
                        affirmation of the Thelema, with very rare exceptions
                        like those of Philip Mainlaender and Mario de Sa'-Carneiro
                        This has been shown e.g. by A. Schopenhauer's
                        "Welt als Wille und Vorstellung"


                        Klaus Schilling
                      • beautiful2afault
                        i got this far. Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah. The term Worship covers all acts of obedience to Allah and had to comment. without going
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
                          i got this far. "
                          Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah. The
                          term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah"

                          and had to comment.

                          without going into the formation of my thought. when the individual
                          must be brought to obedience the situation is in a far cry.

                          several things going on.

                          there is love and equality,
                          respect and honor
                          and finally obedience

                          it would seem to me that obedience is a far cry from love
                          but a good start for those who cannot fathom love especially one for
                          the other in any or all social or personal perspective.

                          so yes, by all means come up to a level of obedience if that means
                          civil conduct toward others. then try for higher levels of
                          existence. respect and honor, love and equality.

                          when i have to bend to obidence. i have left the platue of love and
                          respect.

                          of course following obidence can prevent a bunch of pain and
                          suffering in just doing what is told and said to do. like a
                          thougtless process not needing or wanting more. cause all should be
                          fulfilled from the sheer obidence of all acts in according to some
                          one elses and god's thinking.

                          well i don't think so. if you are without love or respect or the
                          inabiltiy to develop such. then by all means. strive for obidence.

                          and our world will be a better place. but don't force your thinking
                          upon ones who love god and try to love one another in the same breath.

                          understand this? understand this and the world will come to better.
                          if you don't understand this. then do strive toward obey toward god
                          and maybe some form of love.


                          beautiful2afault

                          --- In gnosticism2@y..., "domiati" <domiati@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > What is the purpose of my life? What is the purpose of your life?
                          > What is the purpose of our lives? Such questions occur frequently
                          to
                          > thingking people.
                          >
                          > People answer these questions in different ways. Some people
                          believe
                          > the purpose of life is getting wealthy. But these people what their
                          > purpose be after they have collected millions of dollars. So What?
                          > And then What? What will be their purpose after they get these
                          > millions of dollars? If the purpose of life is to become wealthy,
                          > there will be no purpose after becoming wealthy. And in fact, here
                          > comes the problem of some disbelievers or misbelievers. In some
                          > stages of their life. When they are collecting money is the target
                          of
                          > life. When they collected the money which they have dreamt of,
                          their
                          > life losses purpose and they live in tension and restlessness and
                          > suffer from the panic of nothingness.
                          >
                          > Can Wealth be an Aim?
                          >
                          > We often hear of a millionaire committing suicide. Sometimes, not
                          the
                          > millionaire himself but his wife, son, or daughter. The question is
                          > this: can aiming at wealth bring happiness to the individual? In
                          most
                          > cases the answer is NO. Is the purpose of collecting wealth is a
                          > standing purpose? As we know, the child of five years does not look
                          > for wealth: he prepares a toy to a million dollars. The adolescent
                          of
                          > eighteen does not dream of wealth because he is busy with more
                          > important things. The old man of ninety years does not care for
                          > money, he is worried more about his health. This proves that wealth
                          > cannot be a standing purpose in all the stages of the individual's
                          > life.
                          >
                          > Wealth can do a little to bring happiness to a disbeliever, because
                          a
                          > disbeliever is not sure about his end or his fate. A disbeliever
                          does
                          > not know the purpose of life. And if he has a purpose, this purpose
                          > is doomed to be temporary or self destructive.
                          >
                          > What is the use of wealth to a disbeliever if he feels scared of
                          the
                          > end and skeptical of everything. A disbeliever may gain a lot of
                          > money, but surely loses himself.
                          >
                          > Worshipping Allah as an Aim
                          >
                          > On the contrary, faith in Allah gives the believer the purpose of
                          > life he needs. In Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah.
                          The
                          > term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah.
                          >
                          > The Islamic purpose of life is a standing purpose. The true Muslim
                          > sticks to this purpose throughout all the stages of his life,
                          whether
                          > he is a child, adolescent, adult, or an old man.
                          >
                          > Worshipping Allah makes life purposeful and meaning especially with
                          > the framework of Islam. According to Islam this worldly life is
                          just
                          > a short stage of our life. Then there is the other life. The first
                          > life and the second life are by the death stage, which is a
                          > transitory stage of the second life. The type of the second life a
                          > person deserves depends on his deeds in the first life. At the end
                          of
                          > the death stage comes the day of judgment On this day, Allah
                          rewards
                          > or punishes people according to their deeds in the first life.
                          >
                          > The First Life as an Examination
                          >
                          > So Islam looks at the first life as an examination of man. The
                          death
                          > stage is similar to a rest period after the test, i. e., after the
                          > first life. The Day of Judgment is similar to the day of announcing
                          > the results of the examines. The second life is the time when each
                          > examinee enjoys or suffers from the outcome of his behaviour during
                          > the test period.
                          >
                          > In Islam, the line of life is clear, simple, and logical: the first
                          > life, death then the Day of Judgement, and then the second life.
                          With
                          > this clear line of life, the Muslim has a clear purpose in life.
                          The
                          > Muslims knows he is created by Allah. The Muslim knows he is going
                          to
                          > spend some years in this first life, during which he has to obey
                          God,
                          > because God will question him and hold him responsible for his
                          deeds,
                          > whether done publicly or privately, because Allah knows all deeds
                          of
                          > all people. The Muslim knows that his deeds in the first life will
                          > determine the type of his second life. The Muslim knows that this
                          > first life is very short one, one hundred years, more or less,
                          > whereas the second life is an eternal one.
                          >
                          > The Eternity of the second Life
                          >
                          > This concept of the eternity of the second life has a tremendous
                          > effect on a Muslim during his first life, habecause the Muslims
                          > believes that his first life determines the shape of his second
                          life.
                          > In addition, this determines shape of his second life. In addition,
                          > this determination will be through the Judgement of Allah, the All
                          > just and Almighty.
                          >
                          > With this belief in the second life and the Day of Judgement, the
                          > Muslim's life becomes as purposeful as possible and as meaningful
                          as
                          > possible. The Muslim's standing purpose is to go to Paradise in the
                          > second life.
                          >
                          > In other words, the Muslim's permanent purpose is to obey Allah, to
                          > summit to Allah to summit to Allah, to carry out His orders, and to
                          > keep in continues touch with Him through prayer (five times a day),
                          > through fasting (one month a year), through charity (as often as
                          > possible), and through pilgrimage (once in one's life).
                          >
                          > The need For a Permanent Purpose
                          >
                          > Disbelievers have purposes in their lives such as collecting money
                          > and property, indulging sex, eating, and dancing. But all these
                          > purposes are passing ones. All these purposes come and go, go up
                          and
                          > down. Money comes and goes. Health comes and goes. Sexual
                          activities
                          > cannot continue forever. All these lusts for money, food and sex
                          > cannot answer the individual's questions to himself: so what? Then
                          > What?
                          >
                          > However, Islam saves the Muslims from trouble of asking the
                          question,
                          > because Islam makes it clear to the Muslim, from the very
                          beginning,
                          > that the permanent purpose of the Muslim, in this life is to obey
                          > Allah in order to go to Paradise in the second life.
                          >
                          > We should know that the only way for our salvation in this life and
                          > in the hereafter is to know for sure our Lord who created us,
                          believe
                          > in Him, and worship Him alone.
                          >
                          > We should also know our Prophet whom Allah had sent to all mankind,
                          > believe in Him and follow Him. We should, know the religion of
                          truth
                          > which our Lord has commanded us to believe in, and practice it..
                          >
                          > Those in search of truth
                          >
                          > Who have an open mind and heart,
                          >
                          > Islamic Education Foundation
                          >
                          > Welcome You.
                          >
                          > Objectives: -
                          >
                          > To Convey the message of Islam
                          >
                          > To Educate Muslims aboof Islam
                          >
                          > To keep in close contact with new Muslims.
                          >
                          > Activities:
                          >
                          > Offering Courses and presenting lectures about Islam in several
                          > languages.
                          >
                          > Teaching Islam and Arabic.
                          >
                          > Teaching new Muslims to receive the Holy Quran.
                          >
                          > Helping Non- Muslims embrace Islam and complete the required
                          > procedures.
                          >
                          >
                          > What is the purpose of my life? What is the purpose of your life?
                          > What is the purpose of our lives? Such questions occur frequently
                          to
                          > thingking people.
                          >
                          > People answer these questions in different ways. Some people
                          believe
                          > the purpose of life is getting wealthy. But these people what their
                          > purpose be after they have collected millions of dollars. So What?
                          > And then What? What will be their purpose after they get these
                          > millions of dollars? If the purpose of life is to become wealthy,
                          > there will be no purpose after becoming wealthy. And in fact, here
                          > comes the problem of some disbelievers or misbelievers. In some
                          > stages of their life. When they are collecting money is the target
                          of
                          > life. When they collected the money which they have dreamt of,
                          their
                          > life losses purpose and they live in tension and restlessness and
                          > suffer from the panic of nothingness.
                          >
                          > Can Wealth be an Aim?
                          >
                          > We often hear of a millionaire committing suicide. Sometimes, not
                          the
                          > millionaire himself but his wife, son, or daughter. The question is
                          > this: can aiming at wealth bring happiness to the individual? In
                          most
                          > cases the answer is NO. Is the purpose of collecting wealth is a
                          > standing purpose? As we know, the child of five years does not look
                          > for wealth: he prepares a toy to a million dollars. The adolescent
                          of
                          > eighteen does not dream of wealth because he is busy with more
                          > important things. The old man of ninety years does not care for
                          > money, he is worried more about his health. This proves that wealth
                          > cannot be a standing purpose in all the stages of the individual's
                          > life.
                          >
                          > Wealth can do a little to bring happiness to a disbeliever, because
                          a
                          > disbeliever is not sure about his end or his fate. A disbeliever
                          does
                          > not know the purpose of life. And if he has a purpose, this purpose
                          > is doomed to be temporary or self destructive.
                          >
                          > What is the use of wealth to a disbeliever if he feels scared of
                          the
                          > end and skeptical of everything. A disbeliever may gain a lot of
                          > money, but surely loses himself.
                          >
                          > Worshipping Allah as an Aim
                          >
                          > On the contrary, faith in Allah gives the believer the purpose of
                          > life he needs. In Islam, the purpose of life is to worship Allah.
                          The
                          > term "Worship" covers all acts of obedience to Allah.
                          >
                          > The Islamic purpose of life is a standing purpose. The true Muslim
                          > sticks to this purpose throughout all the stages of his life,
                          whether
                          > he is a child, adolescent, adult, or an old man.
                          >
                          > Worshipping Allah makes life purposeful and meaning especially with
                          > the framework of Islam. According to Islam this worldly life is
                          just
                          > a short stage of our life. Then there is the other life. The first
                          > life and the second life are by the death stage, which is a
                          > transitory stage of the second life. The type of the second life a
                          > person deserves depends on his deeds in the first life. At the end
                          of
                          > the death stage comes the day of judgment On this day, Allah
                          rewards
                          > or punishes people according to their deeds in the first life.
                          >
                          > The First Life as an Examination
                          >
                          > So Islam looks at the first life as an examination of man. The
                          death
                          > stage is similar to a rest period after the test, i. e., after the
                          > first life. The Day of Judgment is similar to the day of announcing
                          > the results of the examines. The second life is the time when each
                          > examinee enjoys or suffers from the outcome of his behaviour during
                          > the test period.
                          >
                          > In Islam, the line of life is clear, simple, and logical: the first
                          > life, death then the Day of Judgement, and then the second life.
                          With
                          > this clear line of life, the Muslim has a clear purpose in life.
                          The
                          > Muslims knows he is created by Allah. The Muslim knows he is going
                          to
                          > spend some years in this first life, during which he has to obey
                          God,
                          > because God will question him and hold him responsible for his
                          deeds,
                          > whether done publicly or privately, because Allah knows all deeds
                          of
                          > all people. The Muslim knows that his deeds in the first life will
                          > determine the type of his second life. The Muslim knows that this
                          > first life is very short one, one hundred years, more or less,
                          > whereas the second life is an eternal one.
                          >
                          > The Eternity of the second Life
                          >
                          > This concept of the eternity of the second life has a tremendous
                          > effect on a Muslim during his first life, habecause the Muslims
                          > believes that his first life determines the shape of his second
                          life.
                          > In addition, this determines shape of his second life. In addition,
                          > this determination will be through the Judgement of Allah, the All
                          > just and Almighty.
                          >
                          > With this belief in the second life and the Day of Judgement, the
                          > Muslim's life becomes as purposeful as possible and as meaningful
                          as
                          > possible. The Muslim's standing purpose is to go to Paradise in the
                          > second life.
                          >
                          > In other words, the Muslim's permanent purpose is to obey Allah, to
                          > summit to Allah to summit to Allah, to carry out His orders, and to
                          > keep in continues touch with Him through prayer (five times a day),
                          > through fasting (one month a year), through charity (as often as
                          > possible), and through pilgrimage (once in one's life).
                          >
                          > The need For a Permanent Purpose
                          >
                          > Disbelievers have purposes in their lives such as collecting money
                          > and property, indulging sex, eating, and dancing. But all these
                          > purposes are passing ones. All these purposes come and go, go up
                          and
                          > down. Money comes and goes. Health comes and goes. Sexual
                          activities
                          > cannot continue forever. All these lusts for money, food and sex
                          > cannot answer the individual's questions to himself: so what? Then
                          > What?
                          >
                          > However, Islam saves the Muslims from trouble of asking the
                          question,
                          > because Islam makes it clear to the Muslim, from the very
                          beginning,
                          > that the permanent purpose of the Muslim, in this life is to obey
                          > Allah in order to go to Paradise in the second life.
                          >
                          > We should know that the only way for our salvation in this life and
                          > in the hereafter is to know for sure our Lord who created us,
                          believe
                          > in Him, and worship Him alone.
                          >
                          > We should also know our Prophet whom Allah had sent to all mankind,
                          > believe in Him and follow Him. We should, know the religion of
                          truth
                          > which our Lord has commanded us to believe in, and practice it..
                          >
                          > Those in search of truth
                          >
                          > Who have an open mind and heart,
                          >
                          > Islamic Education Foundation
                          >
                          > Welcome You.
                          >
                          > Objectives: -
                          >
                          > To Convey the message of Islam
                          >
                          > To Educate Muslims aboof Islam
                          >
                          > To keep in close contact with new Muslims.
                          >
                          > Activities:
                          >
                          > Offering Courses and presenting lectures about Islam in several
                          > languages.
                          >
                          > Teaching Islam and Arabic.
                          >
                          > Teaching new Muslims to receive the Holy Quran.
                          >
                          > Helping Non- Muslims embrace Islam and complete the required
                          > procedures.
                        • beautiful2afault
                          it was not that religion was hijacked but love love was hijacked by relgion and conformed squashed into the some human understanding for that particular time
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
                            it was not that religion was hijacked but love

                            love was hijacked by relgion and conformed squashed into the
                            some human understanding for that particular time and age.

                            don't do this, do do that, and all the rules associated with control
                            because humanity can not seem to control their own sexual and
                            emotional aims.

                            ah the procreation of our loins
                            may it be civil, may it be love, may it be consentual.

                            beautiful2afault


                            --- In gnosticism2@y..., Coraxo <coraxo@e...> wrote:
                            > However;
                            >
                            > there appears to be an administrative problem with the list.
                            >
                            > I am on this "gnosticism2@y..." list and another
                            > "gnosticism@y...".
                            >
                            > Now both lists are using "[Gnosticism]" in the subject line of
                            posts that go
                            > out.
                            >
                            > I was thinking in my reply to the spam from 'Domiati" that this was
                            going to
                            > the latter list not this one.
                            >
                            > Could perhaps some way of distinguishing in the subject line be
                            madeto make
                            > the reference list more easily identifiable?
                            >
                            > My response to Domiati had more relevance on the other gnosticism
                            list since
                            > some cursory study of the soteriology of the Imamate had been
                            broached -
                            > however I do not think this list has had that subject as topic, or
                            if so, it
                            > did not develop.
                            >
                            > So my response to Domiati's spam post is probably somewhat
                            dissonant here
                            > since there is no post history on Islam recently.
                            >
                            > Is it possible that one of the two "[Gnosticism]" clubs could use
                            some
                            > modifier to make the subject line distinguishable between the two?
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            >
                            > Corax
                            >
                            >
                            > From: pessy@c...
                            > Reply-To: gnosticism2@y...
                            > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 18:05:27 +0200
                            > To: gnosticism2@y...
                            > Subject: Re: [Gnosticism] ISLAM AND THE AsIM OF LIFE
                            >
                            >
                            > Coraxo writes:
                            > > The problem is that Islam was hijacked
                            >
                            > like all the larger religions
                            >
                            > Klaus Schilling
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > gnosticism2-unsubscribe@y...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                            > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                          • lady_caritas
                            ... Notwithstanding past discussions in our group as to whether Cathars considered the sacrament of Consolamentum to be of ultimate significance in liberation
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002
                              --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
                              > incognito_lightbringer writes:
                              > > What about the Cathar endura?
                              >
                              > Suicide by starving tends to be licit, as it can be a consequence of
                              > mortification of the Thelema.
                              > Fast active suicides are, to the contrary, usually a form of
                              > affirmation of the Thelema, with very rare exceptions
                              > like those of Philip Mainlaender and Mario de Sa'-Carneiro
                              > This has been shown e.g. by A. Schopenhauer's
                              > "Welt als Wille und Vorstellung"
                              >
                              >
                              > Klaus Schilling

                              Notwithstanding past discussions in our group as to whether Cathars
                              considered the sacrament of Consolamentum to be of ultimate
                              significance in liberation instead of Gnosis in their soteriology,
                              the Cathar endura was nonetheless according to the author in the
                              following link,
                              "… not attested in early Catharist sources, but, it does appear to
                              have been a practice among the late (and extremely peculiar) Cathars
                              of Montaillou in the fourteenth century. Much in their beliefs and
                              practices is unusual, and although Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie's account,
                              _Montaillou_, is perhaps the most widely known work on the Cathars,
                              neither it, nor the heretics it describes can be taken as typical."

                              http://www.gnosis.org/consolamentum.html

                              As to one view on Schopenhauer ~

                              http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/schopenbio.html#_dieweltalswilleund
                              vorstellung

                              "Within philosophy itself, Schopenhauer is important for having
                              broken with his Idealist contemporaries both in espousing a down-to-
                              earth materialism and in forsaking philosophic jargon in favor of a
                              limpid and vigorous literary style. He put forward a metaphysics of
                              the will which approached life in concrete terms (his psychological
                              insights often anticipate Freud) and resulted in a pessimistic
                              attitude to the cosmos. Schopenhauer held that there are two ways to
                              combat the tyranny of the will. The first is through art, at its most
                              exalted in music; it is this aspect that entitles him to be thought
                              of as the exemplarily Romantic philosopher, expounding (in Thomas
                              Mann's phrase) a `Künstlerphilosophie [artist's philosophy] par
                              excellence.' The second path lies in an ethic of asceticism and self-
                              overcoming; Schopenhauer was one of the first Western thinkers to
                              take seriously Hindu and Buddhist philosophy."

                              and

                              "But art offers only a temporary exit from the phenomenal world--the
                              world of suffering, of practical affairs, of causal determinism. The
                              more lasting path is not aesthetic but ethical. The individual,
                              Schopenhauer argues, ought to overcome the chains of desire that
                              enslave him to the will; the ideal is disillusioned, ascetic turning
                              away from the world. It would be better not to have been born; yet
                              suicide is a mistake, since it rules out the possibility of self-
                              overcoming."

                              Cari
                            • alexis johnson
                              An interesting read. Cari, although as for the Diabola est Deus Inversus , I ve recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 4, 2002

                                An interesting read. Cari, although as for the "Diabola est Deus Inversus", I've recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky waiting for the lightning bolt to strike).

                                 

                                Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both?  I once wrote a poem about "God and the Devil dancing around me trading off masks" so I was never sure who was who or what was what.

                                Blackfire

                                 lady_caritas wrote:

                                --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >  pessy@c... wrote:
                                > domiati writes:
                                > >
                                > > What is the purpose of my life?
                                >
                                > Self-mortification
                                >
                                > > What is the purpose of your life?
                                >
                                > ditto
                                >
                                > > What is the purpose of our lives?
                                >
                                > ditto
                                >
                                >
                                > Klaus Schilling
                                >

                                >
                                > SELF-MORTIFICATION !!??!**&$$#^&@#!!?!
                                >

                                >
                                > Come on, Klaus, it can't be as bad as all that.
                                >

                                >
                                > There must be a reason for this...I mean there has to be...I mean
                                isn't there?...something?...anything...Hey, anybody...give me some
                                help here...


                                Blackfire ~ Of course, only Klaus can explain further what he means
                                in his post by "self-mortification."

                                In the meantime, the following homily by Rev. Steven Marshall offers
                                one perspective on "Self-Examination."

                                http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ecclesia/homily_Lent1.htm

                                Whether or not one agrees with Steven Marshall's point of view (with
                                Jungian overtones), his words are pause for consideration.

                                "So, why do we not suggest that we all leave this vale of woe in some
                                mass suicide? Because there is something yet very precious about
                                human consciousness�there is an insight, a resurrection, a Gnosis
                                that can only be achieved in this embodied consciousness. This Gnosis
                                not only liberates one from the attachments and snares of the world
                                but also awakens a compassion for all sentient beings and a desire to
                                remain and help others with the task of Self-knowledge. Liberation
                                from the chains of attainment frees us from bondage to our demiurgic
                                egos."

                                Cari




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                              • incognito_lightbringer
                                Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when you re rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with milk and honey? (I hate
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
                                  Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when
                                  you're rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with
                                  milk and honey? (I hate to even ask about chocolate, the Inca kings
                                  drank 100 cups a day of that stuff).
                                  Klaus, are you a Mormon?
                                  Hoeller tells an amusing story in one of his lectures how the Mormons
                                  came to Austria to convert the locals. His mother was complaining
                                  that they wanted everyone to give coffee up, and that just wouldn't
                                  do. They didn't have a very successful mission.

                                  --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
                                  > incognito_lightbringer writes:
                                  > > Klaus admires the encratites.
                                  > > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.
                                  >
                                  > 'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
                                  > like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.
                                  >
                                  > > (Maybe a visit to the local
                                  > > dominatrix for some flagellation)
                                  >
                                  > that's anti-encratite as well
                                  >
                                  > Klaus Schilling
                                • pessy@chez.com
                                  ... No way. Morons violate celibacy and veganism without even a glimpse of malconscience. They even justify marriage and procreation. *vomit* They also deny
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
                                    incognito_lightbringer writes:

                                    > Klaus, are you a Mormon?

                                    No way.
                                    Morons violate celibacy and veganism
                                    without even a glimpse of malconscience.
                                    They even justify marriage and procreation. *vomit*
                                    They also deny palingenetic reincarnation.
                                    In addition, they are against docetism.
                                    On top of all, they are personalistic theists.
                                    They also deny the inherent evilness of creation.
                                    So I'm nowhere near the Morons,
                                    even scored 0% in the belief-o-matic test.

                                    Klaus Schilling
                                  • lady_caritas
                                    Heh, heh. Incognito, I sit here finally with my first cup of coffee of the day (even though I ve been up and busy for over three hours already) to read again
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
                                      Heh, heh. Incognito, I sit here finally with my first cup of coffee
                                      of the day (even though I've been up and busy for over three hours
                                      already) to read again through various thoughtful responses from
                                      members to my evolutionary quandary.

                                      Be back later when I attempt to put some thoughts together,
                                      influenced though they may be by ingestion of this "strongly
                                      psychoactive" drink.

                                      And, Klaus, I just read your most recent post. Your spelling
                                      of "Mormons" was surely just a typographical error? And, although
                                      you are certainly entitled to your lifestyle, I'll try to ignore
                                      the "vomit" comment, too.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Cari :-)


                                      --- In gnosticism2@y..., incognito_lightbringer <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      > Coffee is a stongly psychoactive material?!?!?! Even one cup when
                                      > you're rushing off to work in the morning? What about weak tea with
                                      > milk and honey? (I hate to even ask about chocolate, the Inca kings
                                      > drank 100 cups a day of that stuff).
                                      > Klaus, are you a Mormon?
                                      > Hoeller tells an amusing story in one of his lectures how the
                                      Mormons
                                      > came to Austria to convert the locals. His mother was complaining
                                      > that they wanted everyone to give coffee up, and that just wouldn't
                                      > do. They didn't have a very successful mission.
                                      >
                                      > --- In gnosticism2@y..., pessy@c... wrote:
                                      > > incognito_lightbringer writes:
                                      > > > Klaus admires the encratites.
                                      > > > Okay, so no sex, meat, or wine.
                                      > >
                                      > > 'Wine' extends to all strongly psychoactive materials,
                                      > > like shrooms, coffee, and LSD.
                                      > >
                                      > > > (Maybe a visit to the local
                                      > > > dominatrix for some flagellation)
                                      > >
                                      > > that's anti-encratite as well
                                      > >
                                      > > Klaus Schilling
                                    • lady_caritas
                                      ... Inversus , I ve recently come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky waiting for the lightning
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Sep 5, 2002
                                        --- In gnosticism2@y..., alexis johnson <blackfire_al@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > An interesting read. Cari, although as for the "Diabola est Deus
                                        Inversus", I've recently come to the conclusion that God and the
                                        Devil are a vaudeville act (as she peers fearfully up at the sky
                                        waiting for the lightning bolt to strike).
                                        >
                                        > Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both? I once wrote a poem
                                        about "God and the Devil dancing around me trading off masks" so I
                                        was never sure who was who or what was what.
                                        > Blackfire

                                        Do you still have the poem? It sounds interesting.

                                        Anyway, Blackfire, in Gnostic mythology the deity who created the
                                        material world is not the same as the True God or Bythos. The
                                        mythological creator god takes on a range of characteristics from
                                        evil (Sethian) to a more foolish, capricious deity (Valentinian)
                                        depending on the Gnostic school.

                                        The article in this link will give you an introduction to the
                                        Demiurge in Valentinianism ~

                                        http://www.cyberus.ca/~brons/demiurge.htm
                                        from the text:
                                        ".. the Demiurge in Valentinianism is quite different in character
                                        from the hostile creator figure familiar from other schools of
                                        Gnosticism. In the Sethian school, for example, the Demiurge is a
                                        hostile demonic force who creates the material world in order to trap
                                        the spiritual elements. In contrast, Valentinians "show a relatively
                                        positive attitude towards the craftsman of the world or god of
                                        Israel" (Layton 1987). Valentinians insisted that while the Demiurge
                                        may be a bit foolish, he certainly could not be considered evil.
                                        Instead, he has a role to play in the process of redemption."

                                        Cari
                                      • pessy@chez.com
                                        ... Both the demiurge and the devil are Archons, nowhere near the Divine. Klaus Schilling
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Sep 6, 2002
                                          alexis johnson writes:

                                          >
                                          > Is the Demiurge 'God' or the 'Devil' or both?

                                          Both the demiurge and the devil are Archons, nowhere near the Divine.

                                          Klaus Schilling
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