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Re: Gnostic Gospels Chapter 1

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  • lady_caritas
    ... regeneratia, I m just fine, thank you. What a delight to see you! And how are you? I know you re a busy mom (love the recent pic), but I hope you find
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 11, 2002
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      --- In gnosticism2@y..., regeneratia <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Cari,
      >
      > How are you?
      > As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base.
      > I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not
      > been on the boards much.
      > It is good to see you here. Keep up the good light.
      >
      > I believe that the beloveddisciple.org will help in your discussion.
      >
      > regeneratia
      >

      regeneratia, I'm just fine, thank you. What a delight to see you!
      And how are you? I know you're a busy mom (love the recent pic), but
      I hope you find time to post some more over here.

      Also, thanks for the link. You reminded me of another site (where
      that article is also located) that might interest Colleen regarding
      Mary Magdalene ~
      http://magdalene.org/

      Cari
    • ernststrohregenmantelrad
      Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on the subject. I really apreciate your input. a few comments on your post and perhaps you or others
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
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        Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on the
        subject. I really apreciate your input.

        a few comments on your post and perhaps you or others could comment
        back on mine.


        > If we look at the papacy and epicopate of the Church hierarchy
        > we see that they were organized as a part of the Imperial
        > bureaucracy, just as was the military and the Imperium. In fact
        > the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and West suggests a
        > decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vast
        > Empire more manageable.
        >

        On the side note to this the line that separates the East and West
        Empire is STILL there. If you notice the western side is Roman
        Catholism and the the eastern side is Orthodox. This in turn affected
        the form of writing as well as the West uses the Latin alpahbet and
        the East (with the exception of Rumania and Albenia) uses Cyrillic
        alphabet. One clear example of this is seen in the fomar Yugoslavia
        where the line between the west and the east cuts right through the
        middle. Serbs and Croats are basically same language meaning they are
        basically same people. In fact the language is termed Serbo-Croatian.
        What is the difference is that Serbs are Orthodox and uses Cyrillic
        alphabet whereas Croats are Roman Catholic and uses Latin alphabet.
        and now they hate each other. But that is well known. but there is
        more on this line that divids the East and the West. As you know the
        Roman Empire included Africa and that line is also visible. However,
        it is not clearly distingishable unless you know something about
        Arabic dialects. Arabic dialects could be divided into East and West
        too and percise there that line falls in somewhere west of Eygypt. For
        the dialects of Maghreb and that of Egypt and vastly different. Ok I
        guess I ventured into off topic here.


        > These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when the
        > Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperial
        > government was able to survive and establish itself by the time
        > of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of the
        > Constantinople government and its diaconate.
        >
        > This Roman Church, functioning as the last vestige of Roman
        > imperial rule sought to establish new Roman authorities through
        > Charlemagne and the Germanic kings of Vienna - with some
        > limited success, but the Imperial function was never able to
        > emerge from the feudal syatem imposed by the Goths and
        > franks.
        >

        Funny, you brought in goths and vandals. aren't they adhered to
        Arianism form of Christianity at first? Can we make some connection here?

        > Nevertheless, Rome really never did die, and was in fact still
        > powerful as a religious government until the time of the
        > Reformation when it lost control of most of Germany as well as
        > England. the next blow was the French Revolution and the loss
        > of political power in France.
        >


        Those god damned revolutionaries!But in case of Germany I think thing
        went peachy after the Bismarck's Kulturekampf. I think they made the
        deal. As for England all is lost after the Jocabite Rebellion and they
        still hate Cromwell. But then England is not a major power anymore so
        who care's now?


        > You did mention Opus Dei and it is a well known secret that
        > Cardinal Walensa was placed in the Papcy through the efforts
        > and support of Opus Dei, and it is this Pope who was the moral
        > force through the Solidarity movement which brough down Soviet
        > Union.
        >

        Ooooh now you are getting into to the meat of it. I would like to
        mention them in relation to the Vatican bank scandal (money laudrying
        with Italian and american mafias) and a bogus masonic lodge P-2 which
        have great deal to do with the death of JP I (which became a sub-plot
        for the movie "Godfather III") and shooting of the current Pope.

        > The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America, the
        > Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.

        Yes, indeed but too but mother Theresa, the propagandaist for them
        died. Who would they turn to now?
        >

        > But Church aside - the United States is a reformulation of the
        > Republican ideals of Rome; the legal and military systems are
        > based on Roman models - the legislature owes much of its
        > origins to Roman predecessors.
        >
        And one more thing is the use of monetary system which is quiet liken
        to that of Rome.

        > Right now American republicanism (the USA is not a true
        > democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
        > increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
        > Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.
        >
        It is disturbing that these people coupled with extreme zionists and
        Islamists (Wahabism-Islamo-fascists) are getting control.


        > However, the system does have protections built in having
        > installed a judiciary which acts independently - to a degree - of
        > the Executive,
        >to wit we have had some rather conroversial
        > rulings like the recent one on the Plejaliejuntz.
        >
        but thanks to the 9-11 Reichtag incidents the rights are slowly
        striping away for the reason of National Security. So we must get
        these terrorists, right? Like in rome we must protect from German
        barbarians. but you know I think these barberians and roman officials
        knew each other. hhhmmm I wonder bin Ladin and Bush .....

        > States also still exert some degree of autonomy, albeit much of
        > that was dismantled by the despot Abraham Lincoln - yes I know
        > he is a favorite for abolishing slavery, but his war against the
        > South was disatrous and dismantled the federal rights of States.
        > I suppose he was a Julius Caesar, we are simply awaiting our
        > Constantine - perhaps he is already here.
        >

        Hey, Lincoln didn't care for black slaves. His plan was to send them
        all back to Africa. (Like Liberia which is what that nation was
        created) And right it was the state rights that was lost in the
        American Civil War. Too bad the issue that used in the state rights
        was slavery which had moral consequeces. I think we could again insert
        the state's rights this time by bringing up the medical marijana.


        But the next Constantine well.... After Nero that is Shrub, I think it
        could Hirary Rodem Clinton. So it could be she.
      • ernststrohregenmantelrad
        ... Demiurge a ... yeah, so in sum the more you know about these things. Everything you know is wrong like AIDS then you start to wonder. Who won the WWII.
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
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          > morph's post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressive
          > powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep
          > them asleep and unconscious (maybe if he had thrown in the word
          Demiurge a
          > few times it would be properly gnostified? :)
          >


          yeah, so in sum the more you know about these things. Everything you
          know is wrong like AIDS then you start to wonder.

          Who won the WWII. That's right Nazis

          Those things won me over to the Gnostic view.
        • morphodyte
          ... the ... Thank you Ernst, I also found a great deal interesting in your response. ( ...) ... suggests a ... West ... affected ... and ... Cyrillic ... Yes
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 13, 2002
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            --- In gnosticism2@y..., ernststrohregenmantelrad
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on
            the
            > subject. I really apreciate your input.
            >

            Thank you Ernst, I also found a great deal interesting in your
            response.
            ( ...)

            > > the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and West
            suggests a
            > > decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vast
            > > Empire more manageable.
            > >
            >
            > On the side note to this the line that separates the East and
            West
            > Empire is STILL there. If you notice the western side is Roman
            > Catholism and the the eastern side is Orthodox. This in turn
            affected
            > the form of writing as well as the West uses the Latin alpahbet
            and
            > the East (with the exception of Rumania and Albenia) uses
            Cyrillic
            > alphabet.

            Yes the ancient hatreds with the Serbs and Croats reflect the
            divide and animus between the Greek and Roma episcopate
            after the decision of Rome to centralize all authority at the
            Vatican. Given the recent wars started in Balkans, it is plain to
            see that the ancient Roman interests STILL play out in our day -

            Ernst is correct in saying that Rome never died -

            and Philip K. Dick also wrote to the same effect in Radio Free
            Albemuth when he also drew the parallel to the US and Soviet
            Union dividing up the world between East and West like Rome
            and Constantinople.

            > Roman Empire included Africa and that line is also visible.
            However,
            > it is not clearly distingishable unless you know something
            about
            > Arabic dialects. Arabic dialects could be divided into East and
            West
            > too and percise there that line falls in somewhere west of
            Eygypt. For
            > the dialects of Maghreb and that of Egypt and vastly different.
            Ok I
            > guess I ventured into off topic here.
            >

            Actually this is interesting and may also be reflected in the types
            of historical development we see in Islamic thought; just to
            speculate, we see the establishment of the Umayyad califat in
            Cordova and the Abbasid Baghdad califat in Babylon, again an
            East-West divide with the dicision falling somewhere along
            Tunis, until the formation of the Fatimid Califat for a period of two
            hundred years, and the foundation of Cairo.

            Similarly, the Califat in the Maghrib fell to the descendants of
            those same Goths, Vandals and Sueves that formerly drove out
            Rome. Like late Rome, the Califat of Cordova collapsed
            because of internal rivalries, fundamentalist religious
            movements ( Almohads and Murabitun) and disunited armies.

            The Fatimid califat, a resurgence of Ptolemaic Egypt, along with
            a variant form of Islam - Fatimid Ismailism and its neoplatonic
            and Alexandrian influences.

            >
            > > These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when
            the
            > > Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperial
            > > government was able to survive and establish itself by the
            time
            > > of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of the
            > > Constantinople government and its diaconate.

            And when Constantinople fell to the Turks, the Sultans only had
            to step into a bureaucracy that continued to function and serve
            the new Emperors, the Sultans who managed an empire which
            conformed more of less to old Byzantium.

            > Funny, you brought in goths and vandals. aren't they adhered to
            > Arianism form of Christianity at first? Can we make some
            connection here?
            >

            I have often wondered if the collapse of the West was due to
            some resentment or rebellion among the Visigothic
            commanders of Spain who continued to practice their Arian
            religion and resented the imposition of Trinity by Nicea.

            Also, Priscillianus of Avila was the first bishop of record
            executed for heresy. It is rumored that his remains are those in
            the pilgrimage spot of Santiago Camposella, not St. James.

            > > England. the next blow was the French Revolution and the
            loss
            > > of political power in France.

            (>>>)
            (>>>)
            > Ooooh now you are getting into to the meat of it. I would like to
            > mention them in relation to the Vatican bank scandal (money
            laudrying
            > with Italian and american mafias) and a bogus masonic lodge
            P-2 which
            > have great deal to do with the death of JP I (which became a
            sub-plot
            > for the movie "Godfather III") and shooting of the current Pope.
            >

            Yes, JP-I seems to have been 'put to sleep' by those interested
            in installing someone more attuned to regaining temporal power
            after John XXIII managed to dismantle so much with Vatican 2.

            > > The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America,
            the
            > > Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.
            >
            > Yes, indeed but too but mother Theresa, the propagandaist for
            them
            > died. Who would they turn to now?
            > >

            Actually, their current Modus Operandi is to use 'liberation
            theology' and community intervention in the form of health clinics,
            pharmaceuticals and hospitals and schools- for example in
            Guatemala where the Church has managed to play Government
            against the indigenous Maya - offering the Maya safety if they
            practice Catholic religion rather than the ancient Maya.
            (>>>)
            > And one more thing is the use of monetary system which is
            quiet liken
            > to that of Rome.
            >

            The coin of Caesar, I agree very much so.

            > > Right now American republicanism (the USA is not a true
            > > democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
            > > increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
            > > Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.
            > >
            > It is disturbing that these people coupled with extreme zionists
            and
            > Islamists (Wahabism-Islamo-fascists) are getting control.
            >

            Fundamentalism is a curious reaction to modernity, let us not
            forget Americans are just as violently fundamentalist over two
            main issues;

            abortion

            teaching evolution in schools.

            These two issues alone have given what would otherwise be
            regarded as backwater hicks a major control of American
            politics.

            recent comments by Southern baptist leadership calling
            Muhammad a demonic pedophile bode ill for the couse of
            American destiny; perhaps we will again see witch burnings if
            these rabid bigots are not reigned in.

            (>>>>)
            > but thanks to the 9-11 Reichtag incidents the rights are slowly
            > striping away for the reason of National Security. So we must
            get
            > these terrorists, right?

            Like the Reichstag, the 9-11 has given the Brown Shirts in
            American politics the rule of the day - anyone suspected of
            'terrorism' can now be hauled off to tribunal without legal counsel
            or due process - the "terrorists" have succeeded in ways most
            Americans do not suspect; they have gotten us to destroy our
            own freedoms. Now police, having been made into heroes by
            sacrificing bodies at the Altar of 1 and 2 World Trade Center act
            with impunity to beat up and harrass not "terrorists" but blacks,
            hispanics, and people middle eastern descent - anyone with a
            brown skin, because the now common perception is that they
            are all heroes.

            Homeland Security - Fatherland the resemblances are all to
            scary.

            >Like in rome we must protect from German
            > barbarians. but you know I think these barberians and roman
            officials
            > knew each other. hhhmmm I wonder bin Ladin and Bush .....
            >

            yes, the Goth armies were in the employ of Rome, they grew the
            wheat for Roman bread on the banks of Guadalquivir, citrus from
            Valencia, wine from Seville, olive oil - hmmm. Now we get
            petroleum oil from the very enemies we would protect our
            empire from.
            (>>>>)
            > Hey, Lincoln didn't care for black slaves. His plan was to send
            them
            > all back to Africa. (Like Liberia which is what that nation was
            > created) And right it was the state rights that was lost in the
            > American Civil War.

            Agreed, the emancipation was aimed only at the dismantling of
            Southern agriculture and economy to favor polictical and
            economic control by the industrialized North - get the black to
            migrate North to work for low wage in the textile factories .

            Too bad the issue that used in the state rights
            > was slavery which had moral consequeces. I think we could
            again insert
            > the state's rights this time by bringing up the medical marijana.
            >

            The predecessor in the "War on Terror", the "War on Drugs" - say
            goodbye to amendments 4, 5, 9, to protect us from the demon
            weed and wage undeclared war on villagers in Mexico and the
            Andes. The war on Drugs sets a bad precedent for the War on
            Terror since they are both unspecified and undefined enemies;
            no clear objectives or outcomes and terrorism like drug is a
            matter of definition, someday refusing to say Pledge Allegiance
            could get suspect of terrorist sympathy and jail - we live in
            Orwellian times.

            Terrorist, like Christian in the Colusseum - anyone suspected
            can be fed to Lions, or in this case, the Police. Quickly our
            country has forgotten the lessons of McCarthy era where anyone
            could be suspect of Communism - and like a witch, only took the
            suspicion to be accused and convicted.

            The value of Gnosticism in our times cannot be understated
            because it is of course a message of Freedom, not dogma or
            doctrine nor Law nor State. The times we live in are an echo of
            our ancestors, the Rome that never died.

            Morph
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