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Re: [Gnosticism] Re: Gnostic Gospels Chapter 1

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  • eris never died.
    ... morph s post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressive powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep them asleep
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 11, 2002
      On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Coraxo wrote:

      > Sorry,
      >
      > This post was not overtly gnostic; let it suffice that the antinomian
      > character of Gnosticism was regrded as a threat to the Emperor and the
      > Romish bishop, enough to have had them suppressed.
      >
      > Fortunately our friends Irenaeus and Tertullian were kind enough to preserve
      > som much gnostic teaching in their polemical writings that just as Rome is
      > resurgent today, Gnosticism is likewise resurgent, something I think Philip
      > K. Dick saw.
      >
      > BTW, "Radi Free Albemuth" is like a parallel gospel to "Valis". Is valis
      > anagramic for Salvi?
      >

      morph's post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressive
      powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep
      them asleep and unconscious (maybe if he had thrown in the word Demiurge a
      few times it would be properly gnostified? :)

      the last few days i've been reading Philip K. Dick's "The Divine
      Invasion" which is part two of the trilogy that started with "VALIS" and
      ends with "The Transmigration of Timothy Archer". after spending the last
      month reading through more or less stale and boring works like Hans Jonas'
      "The Gnostic Religion" this book shows a more exciting, interesting, and
      living form of gnostic worldview to me. without having read the standard
      works on gnosticism, i might have missed a lot of themes in PKD, so it was
      beneficial. the best part, so far, is how he updated many symbols, or
      created his own, which are still connected to the symbols of classical
      gnosticism. one example is how the "exiles" from the planet Earth live in
      isolated domes on the surface of a dead planet called CY30, where other
      humans do live, but they are so cut off and it is such a hassle to
      interact with another. the themes of isolation and alienation are there,
      but in sci-fi context instead of spirit-soul-body imagery. the Demiurge in
      his story seems to be a combination of the Catholic-Islamic Church and the
      Communist Party, rather than some Yahwehmonster. i'm not finished with the
      book yet, so my comments are premature, but i do recommend this to anyone
      who wants to see a more modern gnostic writing.

      john.
    • regeneratia
      Cari, How are you? As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base. I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not been on the boards much. It
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 11, 2002
        Cari,

        How are you?
        As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base.
        I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not
        been on the boards much.
        It is good to see you here. Keep up the good light.

        I believe that the beloveddisciple.org will help in your discussion.

        regeneratia


        --- In gnosticism2@y..., lady_caritas <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@y..., coolas25 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > Where it is documented that the Church claims Peter to be
        > the "first
        > > witness," thus this being why he is successor? I guess I just
        want
        > > to see it for myself since I've been told so many times that
        Mary
        > > Magdaline is the first witness througout my life. I appreciate
        all
        > > the information everyones been giving. Thank you :)
        > >
        > > Colleen
        >
        >
        > Hi, Colleen,
        >
        > Click on
        > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm
        >
        > Then scroll down to "The Risen Lord confirms Peter's
        precedence":
        >
        > "To him alone of the Apostles did Christ appear on the first day
        > after the Resurrection (Luke, xxiv, 34; I Cor., xv, 5)."
        >
        > Note the scriptural references. But also note, as I mentioned
        > before, that according to Catholics, Mary Magdalene was only
        > considered to be an "apostle to the apostles." So, she wasn't
        in the
        > running for leadership, even though no one will dispute that
        fact
        > that she is cited elsewhere in the Bible as being the first one to
        > witness the resurrection.
        >
        > Anyway, this seems to be the "official" Catholic view.
        >
        > Cari
      • lady_caritas
        ... regeneratia, I m just fine, thank you. What a delight to see you! And how are you? I know you re a busy mom (love the recent pic), but I hope you find
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 11, 2002
          --- In gnosticism2@y..., regeneratia <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > Cari,
          >
          > How are you?
          > As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base.
          > I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not
          > been on the boards much.
          > It is good to see you here. Keep up the good light.
          >
          > I believe that the beloveddisciple.org will help in your discussion.
          >
          > regeneratia
          >

          regeneratia, I'm just fine, thank you. What a delight to see you!
          And how are you? I know you're a busy mom (love the recent pic), but
          I hope you find time to post some more over here.

          Also, thanks for the link. You reminded me of another site (where
          that article is also located) that might interest Colleen regarding
          Mary Magdalene ~
          http://magdalene.org/

          Cari
        • ernststrohregenmantelrad
          Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on the subject. I really apreciate your input. a few comments on your post and perhaps you or others
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
            Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on the
            subject. I really apreciate your input.

            a few comments on your post and perhaps you or others could comment
            back on mine.


            > If we look at the papacy and epicopate of the Church hierarchy
            > we see that they were organized as a part of the Imperial
            > bureaucracy, just as was the military and the Imperium. In fact
            > the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and West suggests a
            > decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vast
            > Empire more manageable.
            >

            On the side note to this the line that separates the East and West
            Empire is STILL there. If you notice the western side is Roman
            Catholism and the the eastern side is Orthodox. This in turn affected
            the form of writing as well as the West uses the Latin alpahbet and
            the East (with the exception of Rumania and Albenia) uses Cyrillic
            alphabet. One clear example of this is seen in the fomar Yugoslavia
            where the line between the west and the east cuts right through the
            middle. Serbs and Croats are basically same language meaning they are
            basically same people. In fact the language is termed Serbo-Croatian.
            What is the difference is that Serbs are Orthodox and uses Cyrillic
            alphabet whereas Croats are Roman Catholic and uses Latin alphabet.
            and now they hate each other. But that is well known. but there is
            more on this line that divids the East and the West. As you know the
            Roman Empire included Africa and that line is also visible. However,
            it is not clearly distingishable unless you know something about
            Arabic dialects. Arabic dialects could be divided into East and West
            too and percise there that line falls in somewhere west of Eygypt. For
            the dialects of Maghreb and that of Egypt and vastly different. Ok I
            guess I ventured into off topic here.


            > These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when the
            > Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperial
            > government was able to survive and establish itself by the time
            > of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of the
            > Constantinople government and its diaconate.
            >
            > This Roman Church, functioning as the last vestige of Roman
            > imperial rule sought to establish new Roman authorities through
            > Charlemagne and the Germanic kings of Vienna - with some
            > limited success, but the Imperial function was never able to
            > emerge from the feudal syatem imposed by the Goths and
            > franks.
            >

            Funny, you brought in goths and vandals. aren't they adhered to
            Arianism form of Christianity at first? Can we make some connection here?

            > Nevertheless, Rome really never did die, and was in fact still
            > powerful as a religious government until the time of the
            > Reformation when it lost control of most of Germany as well as
            > England. the next blow was the French Revolution and the loss
            > of political power in France.
            >


            Those god damned revolutionaries!But in case of Germany I think thing
            went peachy after the Bismarck's Kulturekampf. I think they made the
            deal. As for England all is lost after the Jocabite Rebellion and they
            still hate Cromwell. But then England is not a major power anymore so
            who care's now?


            > You did mention Opus Dei and it is a well known secret that
            > Cardinal Walensa was placed in the Papcy through the efforts
            > and support of Opus Dei, and it is this Pope who was the moral
            > force through the Solidarity movement which brough down Soviet
            > Union.
            >

            Ooooh now you are getting into to the meat of it. I would like to
            mention them in relation to the Vatican bank scandal (money laudrying
            with Italian and american mafias) and a bogus masonic lodge P-2 which
            have great deal to do with the death of JP I (which became a sub-plot
            for the movie "Godfather III") and shooting of the current Pope.

            > The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America, the
            > Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.

            Yes, indeed but too but mother Theresa, the propagandaist for them
            died. Who would they turn to now?
            >

            > But Church aside - the United States is a reformulation of the
            > Republican ideals of Rome; the legal and military systems are
            > based on Roman models - the legislature owes much of its
            > origins to Roman predecessors.
            >
            And one more thing is the use of monetary system which is quiet liken
            to that of Rome.

            > Right now American republicanism (the USA is not a true
            > democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
            > increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
            > Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.
            >
            It is disturbing that these people coupled with extreme zionists and
            Islamists (Wahabism-Islamo-fascists) are getting control.


            > However, the system does have protections built in having
            > installed a judiciary which acts independently - to a degree - of
            > the Executive,
            >to wit we have had some rather conroversial
            > rulings like the recent one on the Plejaliejuntz.
            >
            but thanks to the 9-11 Reichtag incidents the rights are slowly
            striping away for the reason of National Security. So we must get
            these terrorists, right? Like in rome we must protect from German
            barbarians. but you know I think these barberians and roman officials
            knew each other. hhhmmm I wonder bin Ladin and Bush .....

            > States also still exert some degree of autonomy, albeit much of
            > that was dismantled by the despot Abraham Lincoln - yes I know
            > he is a favorite for abolishing slavery, but his war against the
            > South was disatrous and dismantled the federal rights of States.
            > I suppose he was a Julius Caesar, we are simply awaiting our
            > Constantine - perhaps he is already here.
            >

            Hey, Lincoln didn't care for black slaves. His plan was to send them
            all back to Africa. (Like Liberia which is what that nation was
            created) And right it was the state rights that was lost in the
            American Civil War. Too bad the issue that used in the state rights
            was slavery which had moral consequeces. I think we could again insert
            the state's rights this time by bringing up the medical marijana.


            But the next Constantine well.... After Nero that is Shrub, I think it
            could Hirary Rodem Clinton. So it could be she.
          • ernststrohregenmantelrad
            ... Demiurge a ... yeah, so in sum the more you know about these things. Everything you know is wrong like AIDS then you start to wonder. Who won the WWII.
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
              > morph's post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressive
              > powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep
              > them asleep and unconscious (maybe if he had thrown in the word
              Demiurge a
              > few times it would be properly gnostified? :)
              >


              yeah, so in sum the more you know about these things. Everything you
              know is wrong like AIDS then you start to wonder.

              Who won the WWII. That's right Nazis

              Those things won me over to the Gnostic view.
            • morphodyte
              ... the ... Thank you Ernst, I also found a great deal interesting in your response. ( ...) ... suggests a ... West ... affected ... and ... Cyrillic ... Yes
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 13, 2002
                --- In gnosticism2@y..., ernststrohregenmantelrad
                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on
                the
                > subject. I really apreciate your input.
                >

                Thank you Ernst, I also found a great deal interesting in your
                response.
                ( ...)

                > > the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and West
                suggests a
                > > decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vast
                > > Empire more manageable.
                > >
                >
                > On the side note to this the line that separates the East and
                West
                > Empire is STILL there. If you notice the western side is Roman
                > Catholism and the the eastern side is Orthodox. This in turn
                affected
                > the form of writing as well as the West uses the Latin alpahbet
                and
                > the East (with the exception of Rumania and Albenia) uses
                Cyrillic
                > alphabet.

                Yes the ancient hatreds with the Serbs and Croats reflect the
                divide and animus between the Greek and Roma episcopate
                after the decision of Rome to centralize all authority at the
                Vatican. Given the recent wars started in Balkans, it is plain to
                see that the ancient Roman interests STILL play out in our day -

                Ernst is correct in saying that Rome never died -

                and Philip K. Dick also wrote to the same effect in Radio Free
                Albemuth when he also drew the parallel to the US and Soviet
                Union dividing up the world between East and West like Rome
                and Constantinople.

                > Roman Empire included Africa and that line is also visible.
                However,
                > it is not clearly distingishable unless you know something
                about
                > Arabic dialects. Arabic dialects could be divided into East and
                West
                > too and percise there that line falls in somewhere west of
                Eygypt. For
                > the dialects of Maghreb and that of Egypt and vastly different.
                Ok I
                > guess I ventured into off topic here.
                >

                Actually this is interesting and may also be reflected in the types
                of historical development we see in Islamic thought; just to
                speculate, we see the establishment of the Umayyad califat in
                Cordova and the Abbasid Baghdad califat in Babylon, again an
                East-West divide with the dicision falling somewhere along
                Tunis, until the formation of the Fatimid Califat for a period of two
                hundred years, and the foundation of Cairo.

                Similarly, the Califat in the Maghrib fell to the descendants of
                those same Goths, Vandals and Sueves that formerly drove out
                Rome. Like late Rome, the Califat of Cordova collapsed
                because of internal rivalries, fundamentalist religious
                movements ( Almohads and Murabitun) and disunited armies.

                The Fatimid califat, a resurgence of Ptolemaic Egypt, along with
                a variant form of Islam - Fatimid Ismailism and its neoplatonic
                and Alexandrian influences.

                >
                > > These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when
                the
                > > Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperial
                > > government was able to survive and establish itself by the
                time
                > > of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of the
                > > Constantinople government and its diaconate.

                And when Constantinople fell to the Turks, the Sultans only had
                to step into a bureaucracy that continued to function and serve
                the new Emperors, the Sultans who managed an empire which
                conformed more of less to old Byzantium.

                > Funny, you brought in goths and vandals. aren't they adhered to
                > Arianism form of Christianity at first? Can we make some
                connection here?
                >

                I have often wondered if the collapse of the West was due to
                some resentment or rebellion among the Visigothic
                commanders of Spain who continued to practice their Arian
                religion and resented the imposition of Trinity by Nicea.

                Also, Priscillianus of Avila was the first bishop of record
                executed for heresy. It is rumored that his remains are those in
                the pilgrimage spot of Santiago Camposella, not St. James.

                > > England. the next blow was the French Revolution and the
                loss
                > > of political power in France.

                (>>>)
                (>>>)
                > Ooooh now you are getting into to the meat of it. I would like to
                > mention them in relation to the Vatican bank scandal (money
                laudrying
                > with Italian and american mafias) and a bogus masonic lodge
                P-2 which
                > have great deal to do with the death of JP I (which became a
                sub-plot
                > for the movie "Godfather III") and shooting of the current Pope.
                >

                Yes, JP-I seems to have been 'put to sleep' by those interested
                in installing someone more attuned to regaining temporal power
                after John XXIII managed to dismantle so much with Vatican 2.

                > > The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America,
                the
                > > Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.
                >
                > Yes, indeed but too but mother Theresa, the propagandaist for
                them
                > died. Who would they turn to now?
                > >

                Actually, their current Modus Operandi is to use 'liberation
                theology' and community intervention in the form of health clinics,
                pharmaceuticals and hospitals and schools- for example in
                Guatemala where the Church has managed to play Government
                against the indigenous Maya - offering the Maya safety if they
                practice Catholic religion rather than the ancient Maya.
                (>>>)
                > And one more thing is the use of monetary system which is
                quiet liken
                > to that of Rome.
                >

                The coin of Caesar, I agree very much so.

                > > Right now American republicanism (the USA is not a true
                > > democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
                > > increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
                > > Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.
                > >
                > It is disturbing that these people coupled with extreme zionists
                and
                > Islamists (Wahabism-Islamo-fascists) are getting control.
                >

                Fundamentalism is a curious reaction to modernity, let us not
                forget Americans are just as violently fundamentalist over two
                main issues;

                abortion

                teaching evolution in schools.

                These two issues alone have given what would otherwise be
                regarded as backwater hicks a major control of American
                politics.

                recent comments by Southern baptist leadership calling
                Muhammad a demonic pedophile bode ill for the couse of
                American destiny; perhaps we will again see witch burnings if
                these rabid bigots are not reigned in.

                (>>>>)
                > but thanks to the 9-11 Reichtag incidents the rights are slowly
                > striping away for the reason of National Security. So we must
                get
                > these terrorists, right?

                Like the Reichstag, the 9-11 has given the Brown Shirts in
                American politics the rule of the day - anyone suspected of
                'terrorism' can now be hauled off to tribunal without legal counsel
                or due process - the "terrorists" have succeeded in ways most
                Americans do not suspect; they have gotten us to destroy our
                own freedoms. Now police, having been made into heroes by
                sacrificing bodies at the Altar of 1 and 2 World Trade Center act
                with impunity to beat up and harrass not "terrorists" but blacks,
                hispanics, and people middle eastern descent - anyone with a
                brown skin, because the now common perception is that they
                are all heroes.

                Homeland Security - Fatherland the resemblances are all to
                scary.

                >Like in rome we must protect from German
                > barbarians. but you know I think these barberians and roman
                officials
                > knew each other. hhhmmm I wonder bin Ladin and Bush .....
                >

                yes, the Goth armies were in the employ of Rome, they grew the
                wheat for Roman bread on the banks of Guadalquivir, citrus from
                Valencia, wine from Seville, olive oil - hmmm. Now we get
                petroleum oil from the very enemies we would protect our
                empire from.
                (>>>>)
                > Hey, Lincoln didn't care for black slaves. His plan was to send
                them
                > all back to Africa. (Like Liberia which is what that nation was
                > created) And right it was the state rights that was lost in the
                > American Civil War.

                Agreed, the emancipation was aimed only at the dismantling of
                Southern agriculture and economy to favor polictical and
                economic control by the industrialized North - get the black to
                migrate North to work for low wage in the textile factories .

                Too bad the issue that used in the state rights
                > was slavery which had moral consequeces. I think we could
                again insert
                > the state's rights this time by bringing up the medical marijana.
                >

                The predecessor in the "War on Terror", the "War on Drugs" - say
                goodbye to amendments 4, 5, 9, to protect us from the demon
                weed and wage undeclared war on villagers in Mexico and the
                Andes. The war on Drugs sets a bad precedent for the War on
                Terror since they are both unspecified and undefined enemies;
                no clear objectives or outcomes and terrorism like drug is a
                matter of definition, someday refusing to say Pledge Allegiance
                could get suspect of terrorist sympathy and jail - we live in
                Orwellian times.

                Terrorist, like Christian in the Colusseum - anyone suspected
                can be fed to Lions, or in this case, the Police. Quickly our
                country has forgotten the lessons of McCarthy era where anyone
                could be suspect of Communism - and like a witch, only took the
                suspicion to be accused and convicted.

                The value of Gnosticism in our times cannot be understated
                because it is of course a message of Freedom, not dogma or
                doctrine nor Law nor State. The times we live in are an echo of
                our ancestors, the Rome that never died.

                Morph
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