Re: [Gnosticism] Re: Gnostic Gospels Chapter 1
- On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Coraxo wrote:
> Sorry,morph's post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressive
> This post was not overtly gnostic; let it suffice that the antinomian
> character of Gnosticism was regrded as a threat to the Emperor and the
> Romish bishop, enough to have had them suppressed.
> Fortunately our friends Irenaeus and Tertullian were kind enough to preserve
> som much gnostic teaching in their polemical writings that just as Rome is
> resurgent today, Gnosticism is likewise resurgent, something I think Philip
> K. Dick saw.
> BTW, "Radi Free Albemuth" is like a parallel gospel to "Valis". Is valis
> anagramic for Salvi?
powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep
them asleep and unconscious (maybe if he had thrown in the word Demiurge a
few times it would be properly gnostified? :)
the last few days i've been reading Philip K. Dick's "The Divine
Invasion" which is part two of the trilogy that started with "VALIS" and
ends with "The Transmigration of Timothy Archer". after spending the last
month reading through more or less stale and boring works like Hans Jonas'
"The Gnostic Religion" this book shows a more exciting, interesting, and
living form of gnostic worldview to me. without having read the standard
works on gnosticism, i might have missed a lot of themes in PKD, so it was
beneficial. the best part, so far, is how he updated many symbols, or
created his own, which are still connected to the symbols of classical
gnosticism. one example is how the "exiles" from the planet Earth live in
isolated domes on the surface of a dead planet called CY30, where other
humans do live, but they are so cut off and it is such a hassle to
interact with another. the themes of isolation and alienation are there,
but in sci-fi context instead of spirit-soul-body imagery. the Demiurge in
his story seems to be a combination of the Catholic-Islamic Church and the
Communist Party, rather than some Yahwehmonster. i'm not finished with the
book yet, so my comments are premature, but i do recommend this to anyone
who wants to see a more modern gnostic writing.
How are you?
As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base.
I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not
been on the boards much.
It is good to see you here. Keep up the good light.
I believe that the beloveddisciple.org will help in your discussion.
--- In gnosticism2@y..., lady_caritas <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In gnosticism2@y..., coolas25 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> > Where it is documented that the Church claims Peter to be
> the "first
> > witness," thus this being why he is successor? I guess I just
> > to see it for myself since I've been told so many times that
> > Magdaline is the first witness througout my life. I appreciate
> > the information everyones been giving. Thank you :)
> > Colleen
> Hi, Colleen,
> Click on
> Then scroll down to "The Risen Lord confirms Peter's
> "To him alone of the Apostles did Christ appear on the first day
> after the Resurrection (Luke, xxiv, 34; I Cor., xv, 5)."
> Note the scriptural references. But also note, as I mentioned
> before, that according to Catholics, Mary Magdalene was only
> considered to be an "apostle to the apostles." So, she wasn't
> running for leadership, even though no one will dispute that
> that she is cited elsewhere in the Bible as being the first one to
> witness the resurrection.
> Anyway, this seems to be the "official" Catholic view.
- --- In gnosticism2@y..., regeneratia <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> Cari,regeneratia, I'm just fine, thank you. What a delight to see you!
> How are you?
> As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base.
> I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not
> been on the boards much.
> It is good to see you here. Keep up the good light.
> I believe that the beloveddisciple.org will help in your discussion.
And how are you? I know you're a busy mom (love the recent pic), but
I hope you find time to post some more over here.
Also, thanks for the link. You reminded me of another site (where
that article is also located) that might interest Colleen regarding
Mary Magdalene ~
- Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on the
subject. I really apreciate your input.
a few comments on your post and perhaps you or others could comment
back on mine.
> If we look at the papacy and epicopate of the Church hierarchyOn the side note to this the line that separates the East and West
> we see that they were organized as a part of the Imperial
> bureaucracy, just as was the military and the Imperium. In fact
> the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and West suggests a
> decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vast
> Empire more manageable.
Empire is STILL there. If you notice the western side is Roman
Catholism and the the eastern side is Orthodox. This in turn affected
the form of writing as well as the West uses the Latin alpahbet and
the East (with the exception of Rumania and Albenia) uses Cyrillic
alphabet. One clear example of this is seen in the fomar Yugoslavia
where the line between the west and the east cuts right through the
middle. Serbs and Croats are basically same language meaning they are
basically same people. In fact the language is termed Serbo-Croatian.
What is the difference is that Serbs are Orthodox and uses Cyrillic
alphabet whereas Croats are Roman Catholic and uses Latin alphabet.
and now they hate each other. But that is well known. but there is
more on this line that divids the East and the West. As you know the
Roman Empire included Africa and that line is also visible. However,
it is not clearly distingishable unless you know something about
Arabic dialects. Arabic dialects could be divided into East and West
too and percise there that line falls in somewhere west of Eygypt. For
the dialects of Maghreb and that of Egypt and vastly different. Ok I
guess I ventured into off topic here.
> These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when theFunny, you brought in goths and vandals. aren't they adhered to
> Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperial
> government was able to survive and establish itself by the time
> of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of the
> Constantinople government and its diaconate.
> This Roman Church, functioning as the last vestige of Roman
> imperial rule sought to establish new Roman authorities through
> Charlemagne and the Germanic kings of Vienna - with some
> limited success, but the Imperial function was never able to
> emerge from the feudal syatem imposed by the Goths and
Arianism form of Christianity at first? Can we make some connection here?
> Nevertheless, Rome really never did die, and was in fact stillThose god damned revolutionaries!But in case of Germany I think thing
> powerful as a religious government until the time of the
> Reformation when it lost control of most of Germany as well as
> England. the next blow was the French Revolution and the loss
> of political power in France.
went peachy after the Bismarck's Kulturekampf. I think they made the
deal. As for England all is lost after the Jocabite Rebellion and they
still hate Cromwell. But then England is not a major power anymore so
who care's now?
> You did mention Opus Dei and it is a well known secret thatOoooh now you are getting into to the meat of it. I would like to
> Cardinal Walensa was placed in the Papcy through the efforts
> and support of Opus Dei, and it is this Pope who was the moral
> force through the Solidarity movement which brough down Soviet
mention them in relation to the Vatican bank scandal (money laudrying
with Italian and american mafias) and a bogus masonic lodge P-2 which
have great deal to do with the death of JP I (which became a sub-plot
for the movie "Godfather III") and shooting of the current Pope.
> The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America, theYes, indeed but too but mother Theresa, the propagandaist for them
> Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.
died. Who would they turn to now?
>And one more thing is the use of monetary system which is quiet liken
> But Church aside - the United States is a reformulation of the
> Republican ideals of Rome; the legal and military systems are
> based on Roman models - the legislature owes much of its
> origins to Roman predecessors.
to that of Rome.
> Right now American republicanism (the USA is not a trueIt is disturbing that these people coupled with extreme zionists and
> democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
> increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
> Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.
Islamists (Wahabism-Islamo-fascists) are getting control.
> However, the system does have protections built in havingbut thanks to the 9-11 Reichtag incidents the rights are slowly
> installed a judiciary which acts independently - to a degree - of
> the Executive,
>to wit we have had some rather conroversial
> rulings like the recent one on the Plejaliejuntz.
striping away for the reason of National Security. So we must get
these terrorists, right? Like in rome we must protect from German
barbarians. but you know I think these barberians and roman officials
knew each other. hhhmmm I wonder bin Ladin and Bush .....
> States also still exert some degree of autonomy, albeit much ofHey, Lincoln didn't care for black slaves. His plan was to send them
> that was dismantled by the despot Abraham Lincoln - yes I know
> he is a favorite for abolishing slavery, but his war against the
> South was disatrous and dismantled the federal rights of States.
> I suppose he was a Julius Caesar, we are simply awaiting our
> Constantine - perhaps he is already here.
all back to Africa. (Like Liberia which is what that nation was
created) And right it was the state rights that was lost in the
American Civil War. Too bad the issue that used in the state rights
was slavery which had moral consequeces. I think we could again insert
the state's rights this time by bringing up the medical marijana.
But the next Constantine well.... After Nero that is Shrub, I think it
could Hirary Rodem Clinton. So it could be she.
> morph's post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressiveDemiurge a
> powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep
> them asleep and unconscious (maybe if he had thrown in the word
> few times it would be properly gnostified? :)yeah, so in sum the more you know about these things. Everything you
know is wrong like AIDS then you start to wonder.
Who won the WWII. That's right Nazis
Those things won me over to the Gnostic view.
- --- In gnosticism2@y..., ernststrohregenmantelrad
> Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge onthe
> subject. I really apreciate your input.Thank you Ernst, I also found a great deal interesting in your
> > the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and Westsuggests a
> > decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vastWest
> > Empire more manageable.
> On the side note to this the line that separates the East and
> Empire is STILL there. If you notice the western side is Romanaffected
> Catholism and the the eastern side is Orthodox. This in turn
> the form of writing as well as the West uses the Latin alpahbetand
> the East (with the exception of Rumania and Albenia) usesCyrillic
> alphabet.Yes the ancient hatreds with the Serbs and Croats reflect the
divide and animus between the Greek and Roma episcopate
after the decision of Rome to centralize all authority at the
Vatican. Given the recent wars started in Balkans, it is plain to
see that the ancient Roman interests STILL play out in our day -
Ernst is correct in saying that Rome never died -
and Philip K. Dick also wrote to the same effect in Radio Free
Albemuth when he also drew the parallel to the US and Soviet
Union dividing up the world between East and West like Rome
> Roman Empire included Africa and that line is also visible.However,
> it is not clearly distingishable unless you know somethingabout
> Arabic dialects. Arabic dialects could be divided into East andWest
> too and percise there that line falls in somewhere west ofEygypt. For
> the dialects of Maghreb and that of Egypt and vastly different.Ok I
> guess I ventured into off topic here.Actually this is interesting and may also be reflected in the types
of historical development we see in Islamic thought; just to
speculate, we see the establishment of the Umayyad califat in
Cordova and the Abbasid Baghdad califat in Babylon, again an
East-West divide with the dicision falling somewhere along
Tunis, until the formation of the Fatimid Califat for a period of two
hundred years, and the foundation of Cairo.
Similarly, the Califat in the Maghrib fell to the descendants of
those same Goths, Vandals and Sueves that formerly drove out
Rome. Like late Rome, the Califat of Cordova collapsed
because of internal rivalries, fundamentalist religious
movements ( Almohads and Murabitun) and disunited armies.
The Fatimid califat, a resurgence of Ptolemaic Egypt, along with
a variant form of Islam - Fatimid Ismailism and its neoplatonic
and Alexandrian influences.
> > These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when
> > Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperialtime
> > government was able to survive and establish itself by the
> > of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of theAnd when Constantinople fell to the Turks, the Sultans only had
> > Constantinople government and its diaconate.
to step into a bureaucracy that continued to function and serve
the new Emperors, the Sultans who managed an empire which
conformed more of less to old Byzantium.
> Funny, you brought in goths and vandals. aren't they adhered toconnection here?
> Arianism form of Christianity at first? Can we make some
>I have often wondered if the collapse of the West was due to
some resentment or rebellion among the Visigothic
commanders of Spain who continued to practice their Arian
religion and resented the imposition of Trinity by Nicea.
Also, Priscillianus of Avila was the first bishop of record
executed for heresy. It is rumored that his remains are those in
the pilgrimage spot of Santiago Camposella, not St. James.
> > England. the next blow was the French Revolution and theloss
> > of political power in France.(>>>)
> Ooooh now you are getting into to the meat of it. I would like tolaudrying
> mention them in relation to the Vatican bank scandal (money
> with Italian and american mafias) and a bogus masonic lodgeP-2 which
> have great deal to do with the death of JP I (which became asub-plot
> for the movie "Godfather III") and shooting of the current Pope.Yes, JP-I seems to have been 'put to sleep' by those interested
in installing someone more attuned to regaining temporal power
after John XXIII managed to dismantle so much with Vatican 2.
> > The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America,the
> > Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.them
> Yes, indeed but too but mother Theresa, the propagandaist for
> died. Who would they turn to now?Actually, their current Modus Operandi is to use 'liberation
theology' and community intervention in the form of health clinics,
pharmaceuticals and hospitals and schools- for example in
Guatemala where the Church has managed to play Government
against the indigenous Maya - offering the Maya safety if they
practice Catholic religion rather than the ancient Maya.
> And one more thing is the use of monetary system which isquiet liken
> to that of Rome.The coin of Caesar, I agree very much so.
> > Right now American republicanism (the USA is not a trueand
> > democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
> > increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
> > Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.
> It is disturbing that these people coupled with extreme zionists
> Islamists (Wahabism-Islamo-fascists) are getting control.Fundamentalism is a curious reaction to modernity, let us not
forget Americans are just as violently fundamentalist over two
teaching evolution in schools.
These two issues alone have given what would otherwise be
regarded as backwater hicks a major control of American
recent comments by Southern baptist leadership calling
Muhammad a demonic pedophile bode ill for the couse of
American destiny; perhaps we will again see witch burnings if
these rabid bigots are not reigned in.
> but thanks to the 9-11 Reichtag incidents the rights are slowlyget
> striping away for the reason of National Security. So we must
> these terrorists, right?Like the Reichstag, the 9-11 has given the Brown Shirts in
American politics the rule of the day - anyone suspected of
'terrorism' can now be hauled off to tribunal without legal counsel
or due process - the "terrorists" have succeeded in ways most
Americans do not suspect; they have gotten us to destroy our
own freedoms. Now police, having been made into heroes by
sacrificing bodies at the Altar of 1 and 2 World Trade Center act
with impunity to beat up and harrass not "terrorists" but blacks,
hispanics, and people middle eastern descent - anyone with a
brown skin, because the now common perception is that they
are all heroes.
Homeland Security - Fatherland the resemblances are all to
>Like in rome we must protect from Germanofficials
> barbarians. but you know I think these barberians and roman
> knew each other. hhhmmm I wonder bin Ladin and Bush .....yes, the Goth armies were in the employ of Rome, they grew the
wheat for Roman bread on the banks of Guadalquivir, citrus from
Valencia, wine from Seville, olive oil - hmmm. Now we get
petroleum oil from the very enemies we would protect our
> Hey, Lincoln didn't care for black slaves. His plan was to sendthem
> all back to Africa. (Like Liberia which is what that nation wasAgreed, the emancipation was aimed only at the dismantling of
> created) And right it was the state rights that was lost in the
> American Civil War.
Southern agriculture and economy to favor polictical and
economic control by the industrialized North - get the black to
migrate North to work for low wage in the textile factories .
Too bad the issue that used in the state rights
> was slavery which had moral consequeces. I think we couldagain insert
> the state's rights this time by bringing up the medical marijana.The predecessor in the "War on Terror", the "War on Drugs" - say
goodbye to amendments 4, 5, 9, to protect us from the demon
weed and wage undeclared war on villagers in Mexico and the
Andes. The war on Drugs sets a bad precedent for the War on
Terror since they are both unspecified and undefined enemies;
no clear objectives or outcomes and terrorism like drug is a
matter of definition, someday refusing to say Pledge Allegiance
could get suspect of terrorist sympathy and jail - we live in
Terrorist, like Christian in the Colusseum - anyone suspected
can be fed to Lions, or in this case, the Police. Quickly our
country has forgotten the lessons of McCarthy era where anyone
could be suspect of Communism - and like a witch, only took the
suspicion to be accused and convicted.
The value of Gnosticism in our times cannot be understated
because it is of course a message of Freedom, not dogma or
doctrine nor Law nor State. The times we live in are an echo of
our ancestors, the Rome that never died.