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Re: [Gnosticism] Re: Gnostic Gospels Chapter 1

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  • Coraxo
    Sorry, This post was not overtly gnostic; let it suffice that the antinomian character of Gnosticism was regrded as a threat to the Emperor and the Romish
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 10, 2002
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      Re: [Gnosticism] Re: Gnostic Gospels Chapter 1 Sorry,

      This post was not overtly gnostic; let it suffice that the antinomian character of Gnosticism was regrded as a threat to the Emperor and the Romish bishop, enough to have had them suppressed.

      Fortunately our friends Irenaeus and Tertullian were kind enough to preserve som much gnostic teaching in their polemical writings that just as Rome is resurgent today, Gnosticism is likewise resurgent, something I think Philip K. Dick saw.

      BTW, "Radi Free Albemuth" is like a parallel gospel to "Valis". Is valis anagramic for Salvi?

      Corax


      From: "morphodyte" <morphodyte@...>
      Reply-To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:59:12 -0000
      To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Gnosticism] Re: Gnostic Gospels Chapter 1


      Hello Ernst;

      Rome actually never did die - and I mean this quite literally;
      Rome just changed the form of governance.

      If we look at the papacy and epicopate of the Church hierarchy
      we see that they were organized as a part of the Imperial
      bureaucracy, just as was the military and the Imperium. In fact
      the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and West suggests a
      decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vast
      Empire more manageable.

      The bishops were an arm of the governement, something to
      replace the senate with something more suited to the Imperial
      command and which assumed the Imperial role of Pontifex
      maximus, so as to relieve the Emperor of religious duty to
      concentrate on secular and military matters.

      These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when the
      Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperial
      government was able to survive and establish itself by the time
      of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of the
      Constantinople government and its diaconate.

      This Roman Church, functioning as the last vestige of Roman
      imperial rule sought to establish new Roman authorities through
      Charlemagne and the Germanic kings of Vienna - with some
      limited success, but the Imperial function was never able to
      emerge from the feudal syatem imposed by the Goths and
      franks.

      Nevertheless, Rome really never did die, and was in fact still
      powerful as a religious government until the time of the
      Reformation when it lost control of most of Germany as well as
      England. the next blow was the French Revolution and the loss
      of political power in France.

      You did mention Opus Dei and it is a well known secret that
      Cardinal Walensa was placed in the Papcy through the efforts
      and support of Opus Dei, and it is this Pope who was the moral
      force through the Solidarity movement which brough down Soviet
      Union.

      The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America, the
      Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.

      But Church aside - the United States is a reformulation of the
      Republican ideals of Rome; the legal and military systems are
      based on Roman models - the legislature owes much of its
      origins to Roman predecessors.

      Right now American republicanism  (the USA is not a true
      democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
      increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
      Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.

      However, the system does have protections built in having
      installed a judiciary which acts independently - to a degree - of
      the Executive, to wit we have had some rather conroversial
      rulings like the recent one on the Plejaliejuntz.

      States also still exert some degree of autonomy, albeit much of
      that was dismantled by the despot Abraham Lincoln - yes I know
      he is a favorite for abolishing slavery, but his war against the
      South was disatrous and dismantled the federal rights of States.
      I suppose he was a Julius Caesar, we are simply awaiting our
      Constantine - perhaps he is already here.

      Morphodyte

      --- In gnosticism2@y..., ernststrohregenmantelrad
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Let me put this thred together with the thred on Phillip K Dick.
      As you
      > know everything in this world in some what related to one
      another or
      > maybe human have a knack of drawing unrelated events as
      related....
      >
      > But "Rome never died" is precicely the answer to why Peter is
      the first to
      > witness the risen Lord (hense the leader of Christianity)
      instead of female
      > like Mary Magdalene although the Gospel of John (20:11-18)
      and Mark
      > (9:1) DO STATE that it was Mary who first saw the Lord.
      >


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    • eris never died.
      ... morph s post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressive powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep them asleep
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 11, 2002
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        On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Coraxo wrote:

        > Sorry,
        >
        > This post was not overtly gnostic; let it suffice that the antinomian
        > character of Gnosticism was regrded as a threat to the Emperor and the
        > Romish bishop, enough to have had them suppressed.
        >
        > Fortunately our friends Irenaeus and Tertullian were kind enough to preserve
        > som much gnostic teaching in their polemical writings that just as Rome is
        > resurgent today, Gnosticism is likewise resurgent, something I think Philip
        > K. Dick saw.
        >
        > BTW, "Radi Free Albemuth" is like a parallel gospel to "Valis". Is valis
        > anagramic for Salvi?
        >

        morph's post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressive
        powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep
        them asleep and unconscious (maybe if he had thrown in the word Demiurge a
        few times it would be properly gnostified? :)

        the last few days i've been reading Philip K. Dick's "The Divine
        Invasion" which is part two of the trilogy that started with "VALIS" and
        ends with "The Transmigration of Timothy Archer". after spending the last
        month reading through more or less stale and boring works like Hans Jonas'
        "The Gnostic Religion" this book shows a more exciting, interesting, and
        living form of gnostic worldview to me. without having read the standard
        works on gnosticism, i might have missed a lot of themes in PKD, so it was
        beneficial. the best part, so far, is how he updated many symbols, or
        created his own, which are still connected to the symbols of classical
        gnosticism. one example is how the "exiles" from the planet Earth live in
        isolated domes on the surface of a dead planet called CY30, where other
        humans do live, but they are so cut off and it is such a hassle to
        interact with another. the themes of isolation and alienation are there,
        but in sci-fi context instead of spirit-soul-body imagery. the Demiurge in
        his story seems to be a combination of the Catholic-Islamic Church and the
        Communist Party, rather than some Yahwehmonster. i'm not finished with the
        book yet, so my comments are premature, but i do recommend this to anyone
        who wants to see a more modern gnostic writing.

        john.
      • regeneratia
        Cari, How are you? As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base. I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not been on the boards much. It
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 11, 2002
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          Cari,

          How are you?
          As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base.
          I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not
          been on the boards much.
          It is good to see you here. Keep up the good light.

          I believe that the beloveddisciple.org will help in your discussion.

          regeneratia


          --- In gnosticism2@y..., lady_caritas <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > --- In gnosticism2@y..., coolas25 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > Where it is documented that the Church claims Peter to be
          > the "first
          > > witness," thus this being why he is successor? I guess I just
          want
          > > to see it for myself since I've been told so many times that
          Mary
          > > Magdaline is the first witness througout my life. I appreciate
          all
          > > the information everyones been giving. Thank you :)
          > >
          > > Colleen
          >
          >
          > Hi, Colleen,
          >
          > Click on
          > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm
          >
          > Then scroll down to "The Risen Lord confirms Peter's
          precedence":
          >
          > "To him alone of the Apostles did Christ appear on the first day
          > after the Resurrection (Luke, xxiv, 34; I Cor., xv, 5)."
          >
          > Note the scriptural references. But also note, as I mentioned
          > before, that according to Catholics, Mary Magdalene was only
          > considered to be an "apostle to the apostles." So, she wasn't
          in the
          > running for leadership, even though no one will dispute that
          fact
          > that she is cited elsewhere in the Bible as being the first one to
          > witness the resurrection.
          >
          > Anyway, this seems to be the "official" Catholic view.
          >
          > Cari
        • lady_caritas
          ... regeneratia, I m just fine, thank you. What a delight to see you! And how are you? I know you re a busy mom (love the recent pic), but I hope you find
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 11, 2002
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            --- In gnosticism2@y..., regeneratia <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Cari,
            >
            > How are you?
            > As always, I am amazed at your knowledge base.
            > I have been brainstorming on gnosticism in real life. I have not
            > been on the boards much.
            > It is good to see you here. Keep up the good light.
            >
            > I believe that the beloveddisciple.org will help in your discussion.
            >
            > regeneratia
            >

            regeneratia, I'm just fine, thank you. What a delight to see you!
            And how are you? I know you're a busy mom (love the recent pic), but
            I hope you find time to post some more over here.

            Also, thanks for the link. You reminded me of another site (where
            that article is also located) that might interest Colleen regarding
            Mary Magdalene ~
            http://magdalene.org/

            Cari
          • ernststrohregenmantelrad
            Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on the subject. I really apreciate your input. a few comments on your post and perhaps you or others
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
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              Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on the
              subject. I really apreciate your input.

              a few comments on your post and perhaps you or others could comment
              back on mine.


              > If we look at the papacy and epicopate of the Church hierarchy
              > we see that they were organized as a part of the Imperial
              > bureaucracy, just as was the military and the Imperium. In fact
              > the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and West suggests a
              > decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vast
              > Empire more manageable.
              >

              On the side note to this the line that separates the East and West
              Empire is STILL there. If you notice the western side is Roman
              Catholism and the the eastern side is Orthodox. This in turn affected
              the form of writing as well as the West uses the Latin alpahbet and
              the East (with the exception of Rumania and Albenia) uses Cyrillic
              alphabet. One clear example of this is seen in the fomar Yugoslavia
              where the line between the west and the east cuts right through the
              middle. Serbs and Croats are basically same language meaning they are
              basically same people. In fact the language is termed Serbo-Croatian.
              What is the difference is that Serbs are Orthodox and uses Cyrillic
              alphabet whereas Croats are Roman Catholic and uses Latin alphabet.
              and now they hate each other. But that is well known. but there is
              more on this line that divids the East and the West. As you know the
              Roman Empire included Africa and that line is also visible. However,
              it is not clearly distingishable unless you know something about
              Arabic dialects. Arabic dialects could be divided into East and West
              too and percise there that line falls in somewhere west of Eygypt. For
              the dialects of Maghreb and that of Egypt and vastly different. Ok I
              guess I ventured into off topic here.


              > These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when the
              > Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperial
              > government was able to survive and establish itself by the time
              > of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of the
              > Constantinople government and its diaconate.
              >
              > This Roman Church, functioning as the last vestige of Roman
              > imperial rule sought to establish new Roman authorities through
              > Charlemagne and the Germanic kings of Vienna - with some
              > limited success, but the Imperial function was never able to
              > emerge from the feudal syatem imposed by the Goths and
              > franks.
              >

              Funny, you brought in goths and vandals. aren't they adhered to
              Arianism form of Christianity at first? Can we make some connection here?

              > Nevertheless, Rome really never did die, and was in fact still
              > powerful as a religious government until the time of the
              > Reformation when it lost control of most of Germany as well as
              > England. the next blow was the French Revolution and the loss
              > of political power in France.
              >


              Those god damned revolutionaries!But in case of Germany I think thing
              went peachy after the Bismarck's Kulturekampf. I think they made the
              deal. As for England all is lost after the Jocabite Rebellion and they
              still hate Cromwell. But then England is not a major power anymore so
              who care's now?


              > You did mention Opus Dei and it is a well known secret that
              > Cardinal Walensa was placed in the Papcy through the efforts
              > and support of Opus Dei, and it is this Pope who was the moral
              > force through the Solidarity movement which brough down Soviet
              > Union.
              >

              Ooooh now you are getting into to the meat of it. I would like to
              mention them in relation to the Vatican bank scandal (money laudrying
              with Italian and american mafias) and a bogus masonic lodge P-2 which
              have great deal to do with the death of JP I (which became a sub-plot
              for the movie "Godfather III") and shooting of the current Pope.

              > The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America, the
              > Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.

              Yes, indeed but too but mother Theresa, the propagandaist for them
              died. Who would they turn to now?
              >

              > But Church aside - the United States is a reformulation of the
              > Republican ideals of Rome; the legal and military systems are
              > based on Roman models - the legislature owes much of its
              > origins to Roman predecessors.
              >
              And one more thing is the use of monetary system which is quiet liken
              to that of Rome.

              > Right now American republicanism (the USA is not a true
              > democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
              > increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
              > Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.
              >
              It is disturbing that these people coupled with extreme zionists and
              Islamists (Wahabism-Islamo-fascists) are getting control.


              > However, the system does have protections built in having
              > installed a judiciary which acts independently - to a degree - of
              > the Executive,
              >to wit we have had some rather conroversial
              > rulings like the recent one on the Plejaliejuntz.
              >
              but thanks to the 9-11 Reichtag incidents the rights are slowly
              striping away for the reason of National Security. So we must get
              these terrorists, right? Like in rome we must protect from German
              barbarians. but you know I think these barberians and roman officials
              knew each other. hhhmmm I wonder bin Ladin and Bush .....

              > States also still exert some degree of autonomy, albeit much of
              > that was dismantled by the despot Abraham Lincoln - yes I know
              > he is a favorite for abolishing slavery, but his war against the
              > South was disatrous and dismantled the federal rights of States.
              > I suppose he was a Julius Caesar, we are simply awaiting our
              > Constantine - perhaps he is already here.
              >

              Hey, Lincoln didn't care for black slaves. His plan was to send them
              all back to Africa. (Like Liberia which is what that nation was
              created) And right it was the state rights that was lost in the
              American Civil War. Too bad the issue that used in the state rights
              was slavery which had moral consequeces. I think we could again insert
              the state's rights this time by bringing up the medical marijana.


              But the next Constantine well.... After Nero that is Shrub, I think it
              could Hirary Rodem Clinton. So it could be she.
            • ernststrohregenmantelrad
              ... Demiurge a ... yeah, so in sum the more you know about these things. Everything you know is wrong like AIDS then you start to wonder. Who won the WWII.
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 12, 2002
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                > morph's post seemed pretty gnostic to me, since it dealt with oppressive
                > powers on our Earth which try to stifle the freedom of people and keep
                > them asleep and unconscious (maybe if he had thrown in the word
                Demiurge a
                > few times it would be properly gnostified? :)
                >


                yeah, so in sum the more you know about these things. Everything you
                know is wrong like AIDS then you start to wonder.

                Who won the WWII. That's right Nazis

                Those things won me over to the Gnostic view.
              • morphodyte
                ... the ... Thank you Ernst, I also found a great deal interesting in your response. ( ...) ... suggests a ... West ... affected ... and ... Cyrillic ... Yes
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 13, 2002
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                  --- In gnosticism2@y..., ernststrohregenmantelrad
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > Dear Morphodyte. I really commend you on your knowledge on
                  the
                  > subject. I really apreciate your input.
                  >

                  Thank you Ernst, I also found a great deal interesting in your
                  response.
                  ( ...)

                  > > the bureaucratic divide of Rome into East and West
                  suggests a
                  > > decentralization of power in late antiquity to make the vast
                  > > Empire more manageable.
                  > >
                  >
                  > On the side note to this the line that separates the East and
                  West
                  > Empire is STILL there. If you notice the western side is Roman
                  > Catholism and the the eastern side is Orthodox. This in turn
                  affected
                  > the form of writing as well as the West uses the Latin alpahbet
                  and
                  > the East (with the exception of Rumania and Albenia) uses
                  Cyrillic
                  > alphabet.

                  Yes the ancient hatreds with the Serbs and Croats reflect the
                  divide and animus between the Greek and Roma episcopate
                  after the decision of Rome to centralize all authority at the
                  Vatican. Given the recent wars started in Balkans, it is plain to
                  see that the ancient Roman interests STILL play out in our day -

                  Ernst is correct in saying that Rome never died -

                  and Philip K. Dick also wrote to the same effect in Radio Free
                  Albemuth when he also drew the parallel to the US and Soviet
                  Union dividing up the world between East and West like Rome
                  and Constantinople.

                  > Roman Empire included Africa and that line is also visible.
                  However,
                  > it is not clearly distingishable unless you know something
                  about
                  > Arabic dialects. Arabic dialects could be divided into East and
                  West
                  > too and percise there that line falls in somewhere west of
                  Eygypt. For
                  > the dialects of Maghreb and that of Egypt and vastly different.
                  Ok I
                  > guess I ventured into off topic here.
                  >

                  Actually this is interesting and may also be reflected in the types
                  of historical development we see in Islamic thought; just to
                  speculate, we see the establishment of the Umayyad califat in
                  Cordova and the Abbasid Baghdad califat in Babylon, again an
                  East-West divide with the dicision falling somewhere along
                  Tunis, until the formation of the Fatimid Califat for a period of two
                  hundred years, and the foundation of Cairo.

                  Similarly, the Califat in the Maghrib fell to the descendants of
                  those same Goths, Vandals and Sueves that formerly drove out
                  Rome. Like late Rome, the Califat of Cordova collapsed
                  because of internal rivalries, fundamentalist religious
                  movements ( Almohads and Murabitun) and disunited armies.

                  The Fatimid califat, a resurgence of Ptolemaic Egypt, along with
                  a variant form of Islam - Fatimid Ismailism and its neoplatonic
                  and Alexandrian influences.

                  >
                  > > These aspects of the Empire functioned so well that when
                  the
                  > > Vandals sacked Rome, the religious arm of the Imperial
                  > > government was able to survive and establish itself by the
                  time
                  > > of Charlemagne as a power functioning independently of the
                  > > Constantinople government and its diaconate.

                  And when Constantinople fell to the Turks, the Sultans only had
                  to step into a bureaucracy that continued to function and serve
                  the new Emperors, the Sultans who managed an empire which
                  conformed more of less to old Byzantium.

                  > Funny, you brought in goths and vandals. aren't they adhered to
                  > Arianism form of Christianity at first? Can we make some
                  connection here?
                  >

                  I have often wondered if the collapse of the West was due to
                  some resentment or rebellion among the Visigothic
                  commanders of Spain who continued to practice their Arian
                  religion and resented the imposition of Trinity by Nicea.

                  Also, Priscillianus of Avila was the first bishop of record
                  executed for heresy. It is rumored that his remains are those in
                  the pilgrimage spot of Santiago Camposella, not St. James.

                  > > England. the next blow was the French Revolution and the
                  loss
                  > > of political power in France.

                  (>>>)
                  (>>>)
                  > Ooooh now you are getting into to the meat of it. I would like to
                  > mention them in relation to the Vatican bank scandal (money
                  laudrying
                  > with Italian and american mafias) and a bogus masonic lodge
                  P-2 which
                  > have great deal to do with the death of JP I (which became a
                  sub-plot
                  > for the movie "Godfather III") and shooting of the current Pope.
                  >

                  Yes, JP-I seems to have been 'put to sleep' by those interested
                  in installing someone more attuned to regaining temporal power
                  after John XXIII managed to dismantle so much with Vatican 2.

                  > > The Church continues to expand its base in Latin America,
                  the
                  > > Phillipines and in Africa - Opus Dei waiting in the wings.
                  >
                  > Yes, indeed but too but mother Theresa, the propagandaist for
                  them
                  > died. Who would they turn to now?
                  > >

                  Actually, their current Modus Operandi is to use 'liberation
                  theology' and community intervention in the form of health clinics,
                  pharmaceuticals and hospitals and schools- for example in
                  Guatemala where the Church has managed to play Government
                  against the indigenous Maya - offering the Maya safety if they
                  practice Catholic religion rather than the ancient Maya.
                  (>>>)
                  > And one more thing is the use of monetary system which is
                  quiet liken
                  > to that of Rome.
                  >

                  The coin of Caesar, I agree very much so.

                  > > Right now American republicanism (the USA is not a true
                  > > democracy, contrary to popular belief) is threatened by the
                  > > increasing powers of the Executive and its support from
                  > > Christian extremists - much the same as in late antiquity.
                  > >
                  > It is disturbing that these people coupled with extreme zionists
                  and
                  > Islamists (Wahabism-Islamo-fascists) are getting control.
                  >

                  Fundamentalism is a curious reaction to modernity, let us not
                  forget Americans are just as violently fundamentalist over two
                  main issues;

                  abortion

                  teaching evolution in schools.

                  These two issues alone have given what would otherwise be
                  regarded as backwater hicks a major control of American
                  politics.

                  recent comments by Southern baptist leadership calling
                  Muhammad a demonic pedophile bode ill for the couse of
                  American destiny; perhaps we will again see witch burnings if
                  these rabid bigots are not reigned in.

                  (>>>>)
                  > but thanks to the 9-11 Reichtag incidents the rights are slowly
                  > striping away for the reason of National Security. So we must
                  get
                  > these terrorists, right?

                  Like the Reichstag, the 9-11 has given the Brown Shirts in
                  American politics the rule of the day - anyone suspected of
                  'terrorism' can now be hauled off to tribunal without legal counsel
                  or due process - the "terrorists" have succeeded in ways most
                  Americans do not suspect; they have gotten us to destroy our
                  own freedoms. Now police, having been made into heroes by
                  sacrificing bodies at the Altar of 1 and 2 World Trade Center act
                  with impunity to beat up and harrass not "terrorists" but blacks,
                  hispanics, and people middle eastern descent - anyone with a
                  brown skin, because the now common perception is that they
                  are all heroes.

                  Homeland Security - Fatherland the resemblances are all to
                  scary.

                  >Like in rome we must protect from German
                  > barbarians. but you know I think these barberians and roman
                  officials
                  > knew each other. hhhmmm I wonder bin Ladin and Bush .....
                  >

                  yes, the Goth armies were in the employ of Rome, they grew the
                  wheat for Roman bread on the banks of Guadalquivir, citrus from
                  Valencia, wine from Seville, olive oil - hmmm. Now we get
                  petroleum oil from the very enemies we would protect our
                  empire from.
                  (>>>>)
                  > Hey, Lincoln didn't care for black slaves. His plan was to send
                  them
                  > all back to Africa. (Like Liberia which is what that nation was
                  > created) And right it was the state rights that was lost in the
                  > American Civil War.

                  Agreed, the emancipation was aimed only at the dismantling of
                  Southern agriculture and economy to favor polictical and
                  economic control by the industrialized North - get the black to
                  migrate North to work for low wage in the textile factories .

                  Too bad the issue that used in the state rights
                  > was slavery which had moral consequeces. I think we could
                  again insert
                  > the state's rights this time by bringing up the medical marijana.
                  >

                  The predecessor in the "War on Terror", the "War on Drugs" - say
                  goodbye to amendments 4, 5, 9, to protect us from the demon
                  weed and wage undeclared war on villagers in Mexico and the
                  Andes. The war on Drugs sets a bad precedent for the War on
                  Terror since they are both unspecified and undefined enemies;
                  no clear objectives or outcomes and terrorism like drug is a
                  matter of definition, someday refusing to say Pledge Allegiance
                  could get suspect of terrorist sympathy and jail - we live in
                  Orwellian times.

                  Terrorist, like Christian in the Colusseum - anyone suspected
                  can be fed to Lions, or in this case, the Police. Quickly our
                  country has forgotten the lessons of McCarthy era where anyone
                  could be suspect of Communism - and like a witch, only took the
                  suspicion to be accused and convicted.

                  The value of Gnosticism in our times cannot be understated
                  because it is of course a message of Freedom, not dogma or
                  doctrine nor Law nor State. The times we live in are an echo of
                  our ancestors, the Rome that never died.

                  Morph
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