Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: On Sufism and Gnosticism

Expand Messages
  • morphodyte
    ... analysis of ... ideals ... Kabbalah ... Greetings: while this may be an old thread, it does IMO merit some further investigation. A prevailing idea is that
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 7, 2002
      --- In gnosticism2@y..., pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:

      > Dr Sayyed Hossein Nasr wrote an interesting comparative
      analysis of
      > Sufism and Gnosticism. Specifically he demonstrates Platonic
      ideals
      > in medieval Andelusian Sufism. It is interesting that the
      Kabbalah
      > comes into existance in the era,


      Greetings:

      while this may be an old thread, it does IMO merit some further
      investigation.

      A prevailing idea is that Muslim Spain was an ecumenical
      exchange of theology and philosophy in an atmosphere of
      religious tolerance, which it really was not.

      Andalus was characterized by brief periods of tolerance
      interspersed with longer periods of conflict of religious and
      political nature.

      In particular, much of the diffusion of Aristotelian and Platonic
      philosophy back into the West was due to the efforts of Raymond
      Lully to evangelize the Saracens, a move which later got hime
      stoned to death by his saracen audience.

      Part of this effort based itself on the requirement of missionaries
      to study the peripatetic philosophers of Islam like Ibn Rushd
      (Averroes) of refuting the aristotelian premises in favor of
      Catholic sacramentalism.

      While the study of Aristotle and Plato in the works of the Islamic
      peripatetic philosophers with the aim of refuting their
      foundations had the reverse effect of introducing the methods of
      hellenistic philosophy to feudal Europe, it cannot be said that
      this was done in the spirit of ecumenism.

      I wonder if kabbalah was developed in Toledo with a similar aim
      of defending jewish mysticism in the face of the onslaught of the
      sophisticated mysticism of Ibn Sina and Ibn Arabi?

      Clearly Ibn Sina and later al Kirmani developed an Islamic
      mysticism which was platonic and valentinian in nature with
      ranks of hypostases originating from an ineffable Truth.
      Similarly, the fallof Sohia, the descent of the Tenth Intellect and
      the kabbalistic "breaking of the vessels" all share a common
      theme in all three traditions and point to a common source.

      However, the undermining of Islamic idealism was not to come
      from without but from within in the formalization of the ashari
      aqeeda and shariah under Abu Hamid Al Ghazzali, a step which
      fossilized Islamic thought and led to the wholesale rejection of
      Platonic idealism and speculative philosophy.

      But perhaps this is a discussion best suited to another list.

      Morph
    • beautiful2afault
      A book by Raphael Patai, the Jewish Mind under the chapter Hebrew arabesque starting on page 130 and continuing to the end of that chapter explains the
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
        A book by Raphael Patai, "the Jewish Mind" under the chapter Hebrew
        arabesque starting on page 130 and continuing to the end of that
        chapter explains the development of the kabbalistic thinking into
        europe, through the arab/muslim mystic suffusion by way of hindue
        religion.

        its a nice overview.

        i personally think there is more to the kabbala than this overview
        tells as to religion or love. i think the kabbala among other things
        tells of the creation of humanity the equality between man and woman
        and our, the male and female, potential development, intellectual and
        spiritual toward god through love and through life.

        beautiful2afault



        --- In gnosticism2@y..., "morphodyte" <morphodyte@y...> wrote:
        > --- In gnosticism2@y..., pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > > Dr Sayyed Hossein Nasr wrote an interesting comparative
        > analysis of
        > > Sufism and Gnosticism. Specifically he demonstrates Platonic
        > ideals
        > > in medieval Andelusian Sufism. It is interesting that the
        > Kabbalah
        > > comes into existance in the era,
        >
        >
        > Greetings:
        >
        > while this may be an old thread, it does IMO merit some further
        > investigation.
        >
        > A prevailing idea is that Muslim Spain was an ecumenical
        > exchange of theology and philosophy in an atmosphere of
        > religious tolerance, which it really was not.
        >
        > Andalus was characterized by brief periods of tolerance
        > interspersed with longer periods of conflict of religious and
        > political nature.
        >
        > In particular, much of the diffusion of Aristotelian and Platonic
        > philosophy back into the West was due to the efforts of Raymond
        > Lully to evangelize the Saracens, a move which later got hime
        > stoned to death by his saracen audience.
        >
        > Part of this effort based itself on the requirement of missionaries
        > to study the peripatetic philosophers of Islam like Ibn Rushd
        > (Averroes) of refuting the aristotelian premises in favor of
        > Catholic sacramentalism.
        >
        > While the study of Aristotle and Plato in the works of the Islamic
        > peripatetic philosophers with the aim of refuting their
        > foundations had the reverse effect of introducing the methods of
        > hellenistic philosophy to feudal Europe, it cannot be said that
        > this was done in the spirit of ecumenism.
        >
        > I wonder if kabbalah was developed in Toledo with a similar aim
        > of defending jewish mysticism in the face of the onslaught of the
        > sophisticated mysticism of Ibn Sina and Ibn Arabi?
        >
        > Clearly Ibn Sina and later al Kirmani developed an Islamic
        > mysticism which was platonic and valentinian in nature with
        > ranks of hypostases originating from an ineffable Truth.
        > Similarly, the fallof Sohia, the descent of the Tenth Intellect and
        > the kabbalistic "breaking of the vessels" all share a common
        > theme in all three traditions and point to a common source.
        >
        > However, the undermining of Islamic idealism was not to come
        > from without but from within in the formalization of the ashari
        > aqeeda and shariah under Abu Hamid Al Ghazzali, a step which
        > fossilized Islamic thought and led to the wholesale rejection of
        > Platonic idealism and speculative philosophy.
        >
        > But perhaps this is a discussion best suited to another list.
        >
        > Morph
      • pmcvflag
        Hey Morph. ... I think this topic is in fact relevent to this list. While this club is dedicated to Gnosticism as it is historically defined, the Platonic
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
          Hey Morph.

          >But perhaps this is a discussion best suited to another list.<

          I think this topic is in fact relevent to this list. While this club
          is dedicated to "Gnosticism" as it is historically defined, the
          Platonic framework within, and historical connections to, other forms
          of esoteric thought can certainly add to the overall discussion here
          (as long as we don't go TOO far from the subject)

          >A prevailing idea is that Muslim Spain was an ecumenical
          exchange of theology and philosophy in an atmosphere of
          religious tolerance, which it really was not.

          Andalus was characterized by brief periods of tolerance
          interspersed with longer periods of conflict of religious and
          political nature.<

          Undoubtedly true. In fact, this is true of almost any era, or social
          order, we can name. I tend to take a middle ground when it comes to
          the critical examination of such things, which is to say that I would
          caution against romanticism, but would also avoid dimminishing the
          accomplishments of such groups at the other extreme. These are people
          after all, they had thier good times and bad.

          Even esoteric groups fall victim to the failing of conservatism in a
          political and religious venue. Y.V. Andrea decried his own role as
          one of the inventers of the Rocicrucians in his later life. Many of
          the most illustrious members of the Florintine Camerata, including M.
          Ficino, Pico della Merindola, and Botticelli, bacame followers of the
          fanatic Dominican, Savoranola, and spoke out against thier own
          previous works.

          >In particular, much of the diffusion of Aristotelian and Platonic
          philosophy back into the West was due to the efforts of Raymond
          Lully to evangelize the Saracens<

          I have doubts about this one. Raymond was active in the late 1200s,
          and the Platonic diffusion in the west can be shown very actively in
          the 1100s. The Spanish Kabbalah school comes later than the Provencal
          school (the Bahir was published in 1178 in Provance, which is
          obviously before Lully), and several courts in Languadoc (William vi
          for instance) made overtures to Platonic studies even before that.

          I am convinced that too much emphasis is sometimes placed on the
          influence Islam had on the disimination of some of these
          philosophies. The influence is clearly there, but, in my view, it is
          only an influence not a source. What's more is it went both ways. For
          instance, much has been made of the Adelusian influence on the
          Troubadours, but there was also a Troubadour influence on the Moorish
          love poets in Spain (BTW, I noticed you also joined my troubadour
          club Morph)... it wasn't a one way street.

          However, there does seem to be an ideological connection between
          certain Sufic, early Kabbalistic, and Gnostic systems of thought
          (which is of course largely the Platonic element) as you very nicely
          point out next.......

          >Clearly Ibn Sina and later al Kirmani developed an Islamic
          mysticism which was platonic and valentinian in nature with
          ranks of hypostases originating from an ineffable Truth.
          Similarly, the fallof Sohia, the descent of the Tenth Intellect and
          the kabbalistic "breaking of the vessels" all share a common
          theme in all three traditions and point to a common source.<

          PMCV
        • hey_market
          There s much to say about this, but perhaps on another list. Perhaps not. Do you have your own theory about the origins of Kabballah and Sufism? Do you see a
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
            There's much to say about this, but perhaps on another list. Perhaps
            not. Do you have your own theory about the origins of Kabballah and
            Sufism? Do you see a common Gnostic source? Hermetic? Neoplatonic?
            Mysteries?

            --- In gnosticism2@y..., "morphodyte" <morphodyte@y...> wrote:
            > --- In gnosticism2@y..., pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            >
            > > Dr Sayyed Hossein Nasr wrote an interesting comparative
            > analysis of
            > > Sufism and Gnosticism. Specifically he demonstrates Platonic
            > ideals
            > > in medieval Andelusian Sufism. It is interesting that the
            > Kabbalah
            > > comes into existance in the era,
            >
            >
            > Greetings:
            >
            > while this may be an old thread, it does IMO merit some further
            > investigation.
            >
            > A prevailing idea is that Muslim Spain was an ecumenical
            > exchange of theology and philosophy in an atmosphere of
            > religious tolerance, which it really was not.
            >
            > Andalus was characterized by brief periods of tolerance
            > interspersed with longer periods of conflict of religious and
            > political nature.
            >
            > In particular, much of the diffusion of Aristotelian and Platonic
            > philosophy back into the West was due to the efforts of Raymond
            > Lully to evangelize the Saracens, a move which later got hime
            > stoned to death by his saracen audience.
            >
            > Part of this effort based itself on the requirement of missionaries
            > to study the peripatetic philosophers of Islam like Ibn Rushd
            > (Averroes) of refuting the aristotelian premises in favor of
            > Catholic sacramentalism.
            >
            > While the study of Aristotle and Plato in the works of the Islamic
            > peripatetic philosophers with the aim of refuting their
            > foundations had the reverse effect of introducing the methods of
            > hellenistic philosophy to feudal Europe, it cannot be said that
            > this was done in the spirit of ecumenism.
            >
            > I wonder if kabbalah was developed in Toledo with a similar aim
            > of defending jewish mysticism in the face of the onslaught of the
            > sophisticated mysticism of Ibn Sina and Ibn Arabi?
            >
            > Clearly Ibn Sina and later al Kirmani developed an Islamic
            > mysticism which was platonic and valentinian in nature with
            > ranks of hypostases originating from an ineffable Truth.
            > Similarly, the fallof Sohia, the descent of the Tenth Intellect and
            > the kabbalistic "breaking of the vessels" all share a common
            > theme in all three traditions and point to a common source.
            >
            > However, the undermining of Islamic idealism was not to come
            > from without but from within in the formalization of the ashari
            > aqeeda and shariah under Abu Hamid Al Ghazzali, a step which
            > fossilized Islamic thought and led to the wholesale rejection of
            > Platonic idealism and speculative philosophy.
            >
            > But perhaps this is a discussion best suited to another list.
            >
            > Morph
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.