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Important San Francisco Interfaith Event

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  • dblakeross
    A PRAYER FOR PEACE AND COOPERATION IN TROUBLED TIMES Interfaith Program on Inner Peace for Global Healing The Institute for Sufi Studies will present an
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 28, 2002
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      A PRAYER FOR PEACE AND COOPERATION IN TROUBLED TIMES
      Interfaith Program on Inner Peace for Global Healing

      The Institute for Sufi Studies will present an interfaith
      discussion "Inner Peace for Global Healing" on Sunday, March 31, from
      2 to 4 p.m., at the Main Post Chapel at the Presidio in San
      Francisco.

      Speakers include Dr. James Conlon from College of the Holy Names in
      Oakland; Dr. Ali Kianfar from the Institute for Sufi Studies in
      Novato; Mr. Glen Pascall, an award winning journalist, and Rabbi Rami
      Shapiro, from the Metivta Center for Comtemplative Judaism in Los
      Angeles.

      The program is open to the public and will include an opportunity
      for audience participation. Refreshments will be served. The fee is
      $15 per person or $10 for students and seniors.

      Find out more:
      (415) 472-6959 IAS
      (415) 382-7834 ISS
      (415) 622-1251 IAS/ISS Publicity
      http://ias.org/events.html#mar

      The Institute for Sufi Studies is a department of the International
      Association of Sufism headquartered in San Rafael, a non-profit
      organization dedicated to teaching the ancient wisdom of the Sufi
      tradition and providing education and service to the community. For
      further information, call the Institute for Sufi Studies at (415) 382-
      7834 or go online at http://www.instituteforsufistudies.org
    • hey_market
      I will assume you have the best of intentions, but as a matter of policy, this club is not a billboard for advertising events, if these are supposedly
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 28, 2002
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        I will assume you have the best of intentions, but as a matter of
        policy, this club is not a billboard for advertising events, if these
        are supposedly admirable events, especially when admission is
        required and even more particularly when the events are not even
        specifically related to Gnosticism.

        Just for the record, this is a club about Gnosticism, and the history
        of the Gnostics or proto-Gnostic groups, or else all things realted
        to gnosis.

        So dblakeross, while you Christen your meeting as important, and it
        very well may be, others may not see the same way. Others may see
        nothing but dollar signs or someone with an agenda, even if it's
        ostensibly altruistic. But there's certainly nothing gnostic about
        it, other than saying it's an interfaith event.

        Besides, if it truly is an interfaith event, and one in which,
        presumably, the attendees are sensitive to other faiths, then you
        would first recognize that Gnosticism is not a faith--this is not
        only a critical distinction for us, but it strikes at the essence of
        our understanding even as reflected in the name "Gnostic."

        Or would you choose to define us? (We have a hard enough time doing
        that for ourselves, and thank God, um Allah, for it).

        At any rate, you say nothing of what the real purpose of the event
        is, and so one is left to logically guess that it is a feel good
        defense of Islam in the face of 9/11, and perpaps more importantly,
        it is a rally designed to make Westerners more conscious and
        sympathetic of Islam, and/or the particular Islamic tradition of
        Sufism. This is surmised based on the title of your program, the
        speakers, and the nature of the host--that is, your organization,
        which is dedicated to teaching and Sufism.

        That's all well and good, and it would be great if we all knew more
        about this rich tradition (far richer than the poverty of your post),
        but many others as well. It would be great if we all knew a lot more
        about everything--especially the things that matter most.

        Allow us to decide what those things will be. In fact, we have made
        something of a decision in that regard, which is why we belogn to
        this club.

        And this site clearly is NOT dedicated specifically to the teaching
        fo Sufism, though we have discussed this faith on various occasions,
        nor is it dedicated specifically to Interfaith dialogues, though
        plenty of that has taken place here, nor is it dedicated to selling
        attendence at events, even if yours is non-profit (note that "profit"
        is not an absolute terms and is defined in more than a few ways).

        So why carry on so much about this?

        First, because we have had many discussions in the past about keeping
        a proper focus at this club, and in this respect your post is
        improper, which is to say, it does not share our focus.

        After all, even most loosely defined, this club is at the very least
        concerned with all things Gnostic and/or related to gnosis.

        To that end, most unfortunately, your post made no mentions of
        Gnostics as part of this dialogue. And if you really were concerned
        about what Gnostics think, you might have even invited a Gnostic to
        be a guest speaker. Meanwhile, the gee whiz promise of audience
        participation just won't do.

        If you want us to sit at the table, then give us a seat at the table.

        But no, instead, one would guess that you would simply have Gnostics
        attend your gathering of other faiths and stand on the sidelines as
        spectators, perhaps joining hands at the part where perhaps everyone
        sings "we are the world" or ecstatically dance a sufi number.

        Now this may sound like an insulting characterization that doesn't
        really address who you are, but there's the point--learn who you are
        speaking to and then address them... specifically, or else risk
        insulting them, or else risk being disgarded as an interloper.

        I might add that to specifically address people is not just a matter
        of being polite and duly considerate, it's a good marketing practice.

        In any case, we simply are not interested here in such generic,
        thoughtless posts, even when they are draped in superficially
        unselfish, feel-good worldly concerns (and all the more when in doing
        so they so clearly betray a lack of concern for any others' spiritual
        approaches beyond the box of goodies they're selling).

        And by the way, I might add that even Yahoo instructs people to stay
        on topic and not to use the clubs for personal solicitation purposes
        and such. So, are you above the law in the grand tradition of our Al
        Queda friends? We Gnostics often express our own antimnomian thoughts
        on the law, though it's a bit of a different slant the the Bin Laden
        boys. But tell me, is this what you're teaching us about Islam--the
        rules don't apply? All must bow down to your Allah? Other traditions
        are to be ignored or else manipulated to your ends?

        Now there's good PR for you. So, um, good job--you've already pissed
        off one tradition.

        Am I being unfair. Yes, confessedly so--purposely so--but all in the
        hopes of pulling you into an actual interfaith dialogue, and therin
        perhpas giving you something to say, since heretofore you have
        nothing to say to us.

        Anbd if you continue to have nothing to say, do su a favor--dont' say
        it. You'll be doing all Gnostics, and Moslims, a big favor.

        --- In gnosticism2@y..., "dblakeross" <dblakeross@y...> wrote:
        >
        > A PRAYER FOR PEACE AND COOPERATION IN TROUBLED TIMES
        > Interfaith Program on Inner Peace for Global Healing
        >
        > The Institute for Sufi Studies will present an interfaith
        > discussion "Inner Peace for Global Healing" on Sunday, March 31,
        from
        > 2 to 4 p.m., at the Main Post Chapel at the Presidio in San
        > Francisco.
        >
        > Speakers include Dr. James Conlon from College of the Holy Names in
        > Oakland; Dr. Ali Kianfar from the Institute for Sufi Studies in
        > Novato; Mr. Glen Pascall, an award winning journalist, and Rabbi
        Rami
        > Shapiro, from the Metivta Center for Comtemplative Judaism in Los
        > Angeles.
        >
        > The program is open to the public and will include an opportunity
        > for audience participation. Refreshments will be served. The fee is
        > $15 per person or $10 for students and seniors.
        >
        > Find out more:
        > (415) 472-6959 IAS
        > (415) 382-7834 ISS
        > (415) 622-1251 IAS/ISS Publicity
        > http://ias.org/events.html#mar
        >
        > The Institute for Sufi Studies is a department of the International
        > Association of Sufism headquartered in San Rafael, a non-profit
        > organization dedicated to teaching the ancient wisdom of the Sufi
        > tradition and providing education and service to the community. For
        > further information, call the Institute for Sufi Studies at (415)
        382-
        > 7834 or go online at http://www.instituteforsufistudies.org
      • ernststrohregenmantelrad
        Well, let s take a look at this another way then just stating we welcome non- Gnostic topic. I mean for some people there is no demarcation of the term
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 28, 2002
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          Well, let's take a look at this another way then just stating we
          welcome non-"Gnostic" topic. I mean for some people there is
          no demarcation of the term "Gnosticism" so interfaith conference
          presented by Sufis could well as be classified as "Gnostics" if
          we stick to that LOOSE definition as most peole like to do.

          So rather then plainly stating that this post is not gnostic or what
          ever let's try "Gnosticize" the post or topic that brought up.

          Anyway some people do consider Sufis as "Islamic Gnostics"
          (not me of course) so confusion is duely noted. (I thought
          "Islamic Gnostics are Ishmaelis, though, lol). There are "some"
          points of contact between Sufis and "Gnostics" or even Islam
          itself. First , Isalm have this notion that Jesus din't die on the
          cross but it was Judas or someone else that long before that
          Jesus went to heaven and put someone there instead of him.
          That concept resemble some what of docetic Christilogy
          prevailent in some Gnostics groups. Still there is a legend that
          Muhammad (God be praise) had a heavenly journey on a winged
          horse at Jerusalem (That is why Jerusalem is Islam's 3rd Holy
          city). This heavery journey remortly resemble Merkabah with
          different worlds or heavens with last one being the heavely
          thorone. And what is this verse in Qur'an "All Praise Be Allah,
          Lord of all the worlds." WORLDS? (hint of different seferot? or
          heavens in Merkabah?) There are other worlds besides this?
          That is just "orthodox" Isalm saying nothing of Sufis with sexual
          and drunken metaphoric image of Allah in their poetry wich
          resemble librintine "Gnostic" prasctice.

          Anyway, I do agree that "interfaith" is not for Gnostics. I mean
          Gnostics don't even prescribe to "faith" so why we should "inter"
          it? I don't think Gnostics should interfaith anything. interfaith is for
          people who are ignorent and only reconize exoterism. If one
          prescribe to the transcedental unity of religion whether
          "Gnostics" or "sufis" do, then why one needs this "interfaith' thing
          which only exoteric religions practice?

          Hey, we do need to dispell some bad things said of Islam but
          then that is not for esoterists to do. (nor it is the goal of
          esoterism which Gnosticsim is the part of)


          --- In gnosticism2@y..., hey_market <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > I will assume you have the best of intentions, but as a matter of
          > policy, this club is not a billboard for advertising events, if these
          > are supposedly admirable events, especially when admission
          is
          > required and even more particularly when the events are not
          even
          > specifically related to Gnosticism.
          >
          > Just for the record, this is a club about Gnosticism, and the
          history
          > of the Gnostics or proto-Gnostic groups, or else all things
          realted
          > to gnosis.
          >
          > So dblakeross, while you Christen your meeting as important,
          and it
          > very well may be, others may not see the same way. Others
          may see
          > nothing but dollar signs or someone with an agenda, even if
          it's
          > ostensibly altruistic. But there's certainly nothing gnostic about
          > it, other than saying it's an interfaith event.
          >
          > Besides, if it truly is an interfaith event, and one in which,
          > presumably, the attendees are sensitive to other faiths, then
          you
          > would first recognize that Gnosticism is not a faith--this is not
          > only a critical distinction for us, but it strikes at the essence of
          > our understanding even as reflected in the name "Gnostic."
          >
          > Or would you choose to define us? (We have a hard enough
          time doing
          > that for ourselves, and thank God, um Allah, for it).
          >
          > At any rate, you say nothing of what the real purpose of the
          event
          > is, and so one is left to logically guess that it is a feel good
          > defense of Islam in the face of 9/11, and perpaps more
          importantly,
          > it is a rally designed to make Westerners more conscious and
          > sympathetic of Islam, and/or the particular Islamic tradition of
          > Sufism. This is surmised based on the title of your program,
          the
          > speakers, and the nature of the host--that is, your organization,
          > which is dedicated to teaching and Sufism.
          >
          > That's all well and good, and it would be great if we all knew
          more
          > about this rich tradition (far richer than the poverty of your post),
          > but many others as well. It would be great if we all knew a lot
          more
          > about everything--especially the things that matter most.
          >
          > Allow us to decide what those things will be. In fact, we have
          made
          > something of a decision in that regard, which is why we belogn
          to
          > this club.
          >
          > And this site clearly is NOT dedicated specifically to the
          teaching
          > fo Sufism, though we have discussed this faith on various
          occasions,
          > nor is it dedicated specifically to Interfaith dialogues, though
          > plenty of that has taken place here, nor is it dedicated to selling
          > attendence at events, even if yours is non-profit (note that
          "profit"
          > is not an absolute terms and is defined in more than a few
          ways).
          >
          > So why carry on so much about this?
          >
          > First, because we have had many discussions in the past
          about keeping
          > a proper focus at this club, and in this respect your post is
          > improper, which is to say, it does not share our focus.
          >
          > After all, even most loosely defined, this club is at the very least
          > concerned with all things Gnostic and/or related to gnosis.
          >
          > To that end, most unfortunately, your post made no mentions
          of
          > Gnostics as part of this dialogue. And if you really were
          concerned
          > about what Gnostics think, you might have even invited a
          Gnostic to
          > be a guest speaker. Meanwhile, the gee whiz promise of
          audience
          > participation just won't do.
          >
          > If you want us to sit at the table, then give us a seat at the table.
          >
          > But no, instead, one would guess that you would simply have
          Gnostics
          > attend your gathering of other faiths and stand on the sidelines
          as
          > spectators, perhaps joining hands at the part where perhaps
          everyone
          > sings "we are the world" or ecstatically dance a sufi number.
          >
          > Now this may sound like an insulting characterization that
          doesn't
          > really address who you are, but there's the point--learn who
          you are
          > speaking to and then address them... specifically, or else risk
          > insulting them, or else risk being disgarded as an interloper.
          >
          > I might add that to specifically address people is not just a
          matter
          > of being polite and duly considerate, it's a good marketing
          practice.
          >
          > In any case, we simply are not interested here in such generic,
          > thoughtless posts, even when they are draped in superficially
          > unselfish, feel-good worldly concerns (and all the more when
          in doing
          > so they so clearly betray a lack of concern for any others'
          spiritual
          > approaches beyond the box of goodies they're selling).
          >
          > And by the way, I might add that even Yahoo instructs people to
          stay
          > on topic and not to use the clubs for personal solicitation
          purposes
          > and such. So, are you above the law in the grand tradition of
          our Al
          > Queda friends? We Gnostics often express our own
          antimnomian thoughts
          > on the law, though it's a bit of a different slant the the Bin Laden
          > boys. But tell me, is this what you're teaching us about Islam--
          the
          > rules don't apply? All must bow down to your Allah? Other
          traditions
          > are to be ignored or else manipulated to your ends?
          >
          > Now there's good PR for you. So, um, good job--you've already
          pissed
          > off one tradition.
          >
          > Am I being unfair. Yes, confessedly so--purposely so--but all in
          the
          > hopes of pulling you into an actual interfaith dialogue, and
          therin
          > perhpas giving you something to say, since heretofore you
          have
          > nothing to say to us.
          >
          > Anbd if you continue to have nothing to say, do su a favor--dont'
          say
          > it. You'll be doing all Gnostics, and Moslims, a big favor.
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@y..., "dblakeross" <dblakeross@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > A PRAYER FOR PEACE AND COOPERATION IN TROUBLED
          TIMES
          > > Interfaith Program on Inner Peace for Global Healing
          > >
          > > The Institute for Sufi Studies will present an interfaith
          > > discussion "Inner Peace for Global Healing" on Sunday,
          March 31,
          > from
          > > 2 to 4 p.m., at the Main Post Chapel at the Presidio in San
          > > Francisco.
          > >
          > > Speakers include Dr. James Conlon from College of the Holy
          Names in
          > > Oakland; Dr. Ali Kianfar from the Institute for Sufi Studies in
          > > Novato; Mr. Glen Pascall, an award winning journalist, and
          Rabbi
          > Rami
          > > Shapiro, from the Metivta Center for Comtemplative Judaism
          in Los
          > > Angeles.
          > >
          > > The program is open to the public and will include an
          opportunity
          > > for audience participation. Refreshments will be served. The
          fee is
          > > $15 per person or $10 for students and seniors.
          > >
          > > Find out more:
          > > (415) 472-6959 IAS
          > > (415) 382-7834 ISS
          > > (415) 622-1251 IAS/ISS Publicity
          > > http://ias.org/events.html#mar
          > >
          > > The Institute for Sufi Studies is a department of the
          International
          > > Association of Sufism headquartered in San Rafael, a non-
          profit
          > > organization dedicated to teaching the ancient wisdom of the
          Sufi
          > > tradition and providing education and service to the
          community. For
          > > further information, call the Institute for Sufi Studies at (415)
          > 382-
          > > 7834 or go online at http://www.instituteforsufistudies.org
        • ernststrohregenmantelrad
          - ... Opps, sorry. That is meant to say. we don t welcome non- Gnostic topic.
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 28, 2002
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            -
            > Well, let's take a look at this another way then just stating we
            > welcome non-"Gnostic" topic.

            Opps, sorry. That is meant to say. "we don't welcome non-
            "Gnostic" topic.
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Market and Ernst had made some comments recently (triggered by a spam) concerning Sufism and Gnosticism. I thought the subject brought up some interesting
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 31, 2002
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              Hey Market and Ernst had made some comments recently (triggered by a
              spam) concerning Sufism and Gnosticism. I thought the subject brought
              up some interesting points, but didn't get a chance to delve.

              Dr Sayyed Hossein Nasr wrote an interesting comparative analysis of
              Sufism and Gnosticism. Specifically he demonstrates Platonic ideals
              in medieval Andelusian Sufism. It is interesting that the Kabbalah
              comes into existance in the era, and that it is through these sources
              that some works by Plato, as well as Hermetica, are reintroduced to
              the west. It is not to say that Sufism is identical to Gnosticism,
              but that the process by which it came about is identical, and that
              it's belief system is more than roughly equivalent. Departing from Dr
              Scholem a little here though (as compared to the equation of the
              Kabbalah with Gnosticism), Dr Nasr seems to think of these religions
              as directly related sisters rather than forms of the same thing. It
              is also my impression that he holds this more valid of the earlier
              Andalusian schools than of later orders.

              PMCV
            • lady_caritas
              ... a ... brought ... PMCV, . . interesting topic. The comparative analysis by Seyyed Hossein Nasr sounds good. There is an online article by Nasr, which
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 1 7:40 AM
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                ---(Message #5723) In gnosticism2@y..., pmcvflag <no_reply@y...>
                wrote:
                > Hey Market and Ernst had made some comments recently (triggered by
                a
                > spam) concerning Sufism and Gnosticism. I thought the subject
                brought
                > up some interesting points, but didn't get a chance to delve.
                >


                PMCV, . . interesting topic.

                The comparative analysis by Seyyed Hossein Nasr sounds good. There
                is an online article by Nasr, which discusses mystical philosophy in
                Islam, including connections with with Hermetic, Pythagorean and
                Neoplatonic teachings:

                http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/rep/H004.htm

                The homepage for the website where this article is found also
                includes other articles by various authors discussing Islamic
                philosophy, including influences of Greek philosophy (Neoplatonism,
                Platonism, Pythagoreanism, Stoicism, Aristotelianism), for anyone
                interested:

                http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep.htm

                A couple more links, discussing mysticism of Islam and borrowings
                from Neoplatonism and Gnosticism:

                http://answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/Heirs/chap10.htm

                http://www.khamush.com/greek/gr.htm

                Cari
              • morphodyte
                ... analysis of ... ideals ... Kabbalah ... Greetings: while this may be an old thread, it does IMO merit some further investigation. A prevailing idea is that
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 7, 2002
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                  --- In gnosticism2@y..., pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                  > Dr Sayyed Hossein Nasr wrote an interesting comparative
                  analysis of
                  > Sufism and Gnosticism. Specifically he demonstrates Platonic
                  ideals
                  > in medieval Andelusian Sufism. It is interesting that the
                  Kabbalah
                  > comes into existance in the era,


                  Greetings:

                  while this may be an old thread, it does IMO merit some further
                  investigation.

                  A prevailing idea is that Muslim Spain was an ecumenical
                  exchange of theology and philosophy in an atmosphere of
                  religious tolerance, which it really was not.

                  Andalus was characterized by brief periods of tolerance
                  interspersed with longer periods of conflict of religious and
                  political nature.

                  In particular, much of the diffusion of Aristotelian and Platonic
                  philosophy back into the West was due to the efforts of Raymond
                  Lully to evangelize the Saracens, a move which later got hime
                  stoned to death by his saracen audience.

                  Part of this effort based itself on the requirement of missionaries
                  to study the peripatetic philosophers of Islam like Ibn Rushd
                  (Averroes) of refuting the aristotelian premises in favor of
                  Catholic sacramentalism.

                  While the study of Aristotle and Plato in the works of the Islamic
                  peripatetic philosophers with the aim of refuting their
                  foundations had the reverse effect of introducing the methods of
                  hellenistic philosophy to feudal Europe, it cannot be said that
                  this was done in the spirit of ecumenism.

                  I wonder if kabbalah was developed in Toledo with a similar aim
                  of defending jewish mysticism in the face of the onslaught of the
                  sophisticated mysticism of Ibn Sina and Ibn Arabi?

                  Clearly Ibn Sina and later al Kirmani developed an Islamic
                  mysticism which was platonic and valentinian in nature with
                  ranks of hypostases originating from an ineffable Truth.
                  Similarly, the fallof Sohia, the descent of the Tenth Intellect and
                  the kabbalistic "breaking of the vessels" all share a common
                  theme in all three traditions and point to a common source.

                  However, the undermining of Islamic idealism was not to come
                  from without but from within in the formalization of the ashari
                  aqeeda and shariah under Abu Hamid Al Ghazzali, a step which
                  fossilized Islamic thought and led to the wholesale rejection of
                  Platonic idealism and speculative philosophy.

                  But perhaps this is a discussion best suited to another list.

                  Morph
                • beautiful2afault
                  A book by Raphael Patai, the Jewish Mind under the chapter Hebrew arabesque starting on page 130 and continuing to the end of that chapter explains the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
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                    A book by Raphael Patai, "the Jewish Mind" under the chapter Hebrew
                    arabesque starting on page 130 and continuing to the end of that
                    chapter explains the development of the kabbalistic thinking into
                    europe, through the arab/muslim mystic suffusion by way of hindue
                    religion.

                    its a nice overview.

                    i personally think there is more to the kabbala than this overview
                    tells as to religion or love. i think the kabbala among other things
                    tells of the creation of humanity the equality between man and woman
                    and our, the male and female, potential development, intellectual and
                    spiritual toward god through love and through life.

                    beautiful2afault



                    --- In gnosticism2@y..., "morphodyte" <morphodyte@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In gnosticism2@y..., pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Dr Sayyed Hossein Nasr wrote an interesting comparative
                    > analysis of
                    > > Sufism and Gnosticism. Specifically he demonstrates Platonic
                    > ideals
                    > > in medieval Andelusian Sufism. It is interesting that the
                    > Kabbalah
                    > > comes into existance in the era,
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings:
                    >
                    > while this may be an old thread, it does IMO merit some further
                    > investigation.
                    >
                    > A prevailing idea is that Muslim Spain was an ecumenical
                    > exchange of theology and philosophy in an atmosphere of
                    > religious tolerance, which it really was not.
                    >
                    > Andalus was characterized by brief periods of tolerance
                    > interspersed with longer periods of conflict of religious and
                    > political nature.
                    >
                    > In particular, much of the diffusion of Aristotelian and Platonic
                    > philosophy back into the West was due to the efforts of Raymond
                    > Lully to evangelize the Saracens, a move which later got hime
                    > stoned to death by his saracen audience.
                    >
                    > Part of this effort based itself on the requirement of missionaries
                    > to study the peripatetic philosophers of Islam like Ibn Rushd
                    > (Averroes) of refuting the aristotelian premises in favor of
                    > Catholic sacramentalism.
                    >
                    > While the study of Aristotle and Plato in the works of the Islamic
                    > peripatetic philosophers with the aim of refuting their
                    > foundations had the reverse effect of introducing the methods of
                    > hellenistic philosophy to feudal Europe, it cannot be said that
                    > this was done in the spirit of ecumenism.
                    >
                    > I wonder if kabbalah was developed in Toledo with a similar aim
                    > of defending jewish mysticism in the face of the onslaught of the
                    > sophisticated mysticism of Ibn Sina and Ibn Arabi?
                    >
                    > Clearly Ibn Sina and later al Kirmani developed an Islamic
                    > mysticism which was platonic and valentinian in nature with
                    > ranks of hypostases originating from an ineffable Truth.
                    > Similarly, the fallof Sohia, the descent of the Tenth Intellect and
                    > the kabbalistic "breaking of the vessels" all share a common
                    > theme in all three traditions and point to a common source.
                    >
                    > However, the undermining of Islamic idealism was not to come
                    > from without but from within in the formalization of the ashari
                    > aqeeda and shariah under Abu Hamid Al Ghazzali, a step which
                    > fossilized Islamic thought and led to the wholesale rejection of
                    > Platonic idealism and speculative philosophy.
                    >
                    > But perhaps this is a discussion best suited to another list.
                    >
                    > Morph
                  • pmcvflag
                    Hey Morph. ... I think this topic is in fact relevent to this list. While this club is dedicated to Gnosticism as it is historically defined, the Platonic
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
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                      Hey Morph.

                      >But perhaps this is a discussion best suited to another list.<

                      I think this topic is in fact relevent to this list. While this club
                      is dedicated to "Gnosticism" as it is historically defined, the
                      Platonic framework within, and historical connections to, other forms
                      of esoteric thought can certainly add to the overall discussion here
                      (as long as we don't go TOO far from the subject)

                      >A prevailing idea is that Muslim Spain was an ecumenical
                      exchange of theology and philosophy in an atmosphere of
                      religious tolerance, which it really was not.

                      Andalus was characterized by brief periods of tolerance
                      interspersed with longer periods of conflict of religious and
                      political nature.<

                      Undoubtedly true. In fact, this is true of almost any era, or social
                      order, we can name. I tend to take a middle ground when it comes to
                      the critical examination of such things, which is to say that I would
                      caution against romanticism, but would also avoid dimminishing the
                      accomplishments of such groups at the other extreme. These are people
                      after all, they had thier good times and bad.

                      Even esoteric groups fall victim to the failing of conservatism in a
                      political and religious venue. Y.V. Andrea decried his own role as
                      one of the inventers of the Rocicrucians in his later life. Many of
                      the most illustrious members of the Florintine Camerata, including M.
                      Ficino, Pico della Merindola, and Botticelli, bacame followers of the
                      fanatic Dominican, Savoranola, and spoke out against thier own
                      previous works.

                      >In particular, much of the diffusion of Aristotelian and Platonic
                      philosophy back into the West was due to the efforts of Raymond
                      Lully to evangelize the Saracens<

                      I have doubts about this one. Raymond was active in the late 1200s,
                      and the Platonic diffusion in the west can be shown very actively in
                      the 1100s. The Spanish Kabbalah school comes later than the Provencal
                      school (the Bahir was published in 1178 in Provance, which is
                      obviously before Lully), and several courts in Languadoc (William vi
                      for instance) made overtures to Platonic studies even before that.

                      I am convinced that too much emphasis is sometimes placed on the
                      influence Islam had on the disimination of some of these
                      philosophies. The influence is clearly there, but, in my view, it is
                      only an influence not a source. What's more is it went both ways. For
                      instance, much has been made of the Adelusian influence on the
                      Troubadours, but there was also a Troubadour influence on the Moorish
                      love poets in Spain (BTW, I noticed you also joined my troubadour
                      club Morph)... it wasn't a one way street.

                      However, there does seem to be an ideological connection between
                      certain Sufic, early Kabbalistic, and Gnostic systems of thought
                      (which is of course largely the Platonic element) as you very nicely
                      point out next.......

                      >Clearly Ibn Sina and later al Kirmani developed an Islamic
                      mysticism which was platonic and valentinian in nature with
                      ranks of hypostases originating from an ineffable Truth.
                      Similarly, the fallof Sohia, the descent of the Tenth Intellect and
                      the kabbalistic "breaking of the vessels" all share a common
                      theme in all three traditions and point to a common source.<

                      PMCV
                    • hey_market
                      There s much to say about this, but perhaps on another list. Perhaps not. Do you have your own theory about the origins of Kabballah and Sufism? Do you see a
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
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                        There's much to say about this, but perhaps on another list. Perhaps
                        not. Do you have your own theory about the origins of Kabballah and
                        Sufism? Do you see a common Gnostic source? Hermetic? Neoplatonic?
                        Mysteries?

                        --- In gnosticism2@y..., "morphodyte" <morphodyte@y...> wrote:
                        > --- In gnosticism2@y..., pmcvflag <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Dr Sayyed Hossein Nasr wrote an interesting comparative
                        > analysis of
                        > > Sufism and Gnosticism. Specifically he demonstrates Platonic
                        > ideals
                        > > in medieval Andelusian Sufism. It is interesting that the
                        > Kabbalah
                        > > comes into existance in the era,
                        >
                        >
                        > Greetings:
                        >
                        > while this may be an old thread, it does IMO merit some further
                        > investigation.
                        >
                        > A prevailing idea is that Muslim Spain was an ecumenical
                        > exchange of theology and philosophy in an atmosphere of
                        > religious tolerance, which it really was not.
                        >
                        > Andalus was characterized by brief periods of tolerance
                        > interspersed with longer periods of conflict of religious and
                        > political nature.
                        >
                        > In particular, much of the diffusion of Aristotelian and Platonic
                        > philosophy back into the West was due to the efforts of Raymond
                        > Lully to evangelize the Saracens, a move which later got hime
                        > stoned to death by his saracen audience.
                        >
                        > Part of this effort based itself on the requirement of missionaries
                        > to study the peripatetic philosophers of Islam like Ibn Rushd
                        > (Averroes) of refuting the aristotelian premises in favor of
                        > Catholic sacramentalism.
                        >
                        > While the study of Aristotle and Plato in the works of the Islamic
                        > peripatetic philosophers with the aim of refuting their
                        > foundations had the reverse effect of introducing the methods of
                        > hellenistic philosophy to feudal Europe, it cannot be said that
                        > this was done in the spirit of ecumenism.
                        >
                        > I wonder if kabbalah was developed in Toledo with a similar aim
                        > of defending jewish mysticism in the face of the onslaught of the
                        > sophisticated mysticism of Ibn Sina and Ibn Arabi?
                        >
                        > Clearly Ibn Sina and later al Kirmani developed an Islamic
                        > mysticism which was platonic and valentinian in nature with
                        > ranks of hypostases originating from an ineffable Truth.
                        > Similarly, the fallof Sohia, the descent of the Tenth Intellect and
                        > the kabbalistic "breaking of the vessels" all share a common
                        > theme in all three traditions and point to a common source.
                        >
                        > However, the undermining of Islamic idealism was not to come
                        > from without but from within in the formalization of the ashari
                        > aqeeda and shariah under Abu Hamid Al Ghazzali, a step which
                        > fossilized Islamic thought and led to the wholesale rejection of
                        > Platonic idealism and speculative philosophy.
                        >
                        > But perhaps this is a discussion best suited to another list.
                        >
                        > Morph
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