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Re: Under the Groups wire--pt. 2

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  • hey_market
    And yet, perhaps both Jews and Christians and Gnostics really can have it both ways with a simple formula--less Jesus, more Christ. If that sounds like
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 18, 2002
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      And yet, perhaps both Jews and Christians and
      Gnostics really can have it both ways with a simple
      formula--less Jesus, more Christ.<br><br>If that sounds like an
      ad, then so be it--we need a campaign. <br><br>Or
      maybe not. <br><br>That is, things have been going in
      this direction for quite sometime anyway, just so long
      as one is willing to look beyond the headlines,
      which scream of dying fundamentalists, more than a few
      of which are more than willing to take everyone down
      with them. <br><br>But I suppose you can hardly blame
      them for screaming in their final moments of agony.
      Unfortunately, new screams are likely to take their place.
      <br><br>At any rate, this brings me to the cover of a recent
      book which proclaims that fundamentlists have stolen
      Christianity in recent years. I agree with the spirit of the
      comment, and certainly "get" what he means on the surface
      of it. But while I haven't read the book and so I'm
      reluctant to judge, I will say that it seems to me that
      fundamentalists aren't so much stealing Christianity as they're
      trying to steal it back--even though they never had it
      in the first place!<br><br>What I mean is that
      they've never really been Christians in the first place,
      and the same goes for most so-called Chistians over
      the last millennia, who have largely been Jesucians,
      but not Christians. <br><br>Maybe it all happened
      back when Augustine and his boys insisted on the
      divine and human nature of Jesus--and most important,
      ONLY their exclusive interpretation of this
      hypostatis--or later with the whole transubstantiation
      business.<br><br>Whatever. Who wants to split the long hairs of Jesus any
      longer? He's sportin a crew by now. Maybe forensic
      experts will find something there, but certainly not
      anybody who's recently been really paying attention to,
      oh, recorded history.<br><br>But the main thing is
      that it is Christ who can be within us. But Jesus?
      He's back there--in the rear view mirror--not to be
      forgotten, to be sure, and a great guy we all can agree, not
      to mention the fact that after all these years he
      still looks terrific on crushed velvet paintings
      (perhaps his greatest miracle of all).<br><br>So hang him
      on the wall if it does your soul good. And hang him
      on a cross, if there's still spiritual progress to
      be found in the contemplation of mutilation (but tv
      shos are free). <br><br>But hangin around here? Or
      within you?<br><br>Hmmm.... 'Pends on what ya mean, I
      reckon. Seriously though, Jesus is history. Really.
      History. As such, he's a great figure of history. But
      Christ on the other hand is present. Ever-present.
      <br><br>And certainly not limited to Jesucians. <br><br>Moe,
      being a Christian, that's something else entirely--and
      it's something there for any who can see a salvific
      force within, of which Jesus gave witness both within
      and without.<br><br>But note that Jesucians (that's
      "Jeh-ZOO-shuns") sounds kinda alien, and indeed, just as they are
      so fond of proclaiming, Jesucians--particularly
      fundamentalist or orthodox Jesucians--have become something of
      aliens, even amongst their own peoples and even amidst
      their own families. <br><br>They have becomes strangers
      in their own houses, and so it is that they have
      finally reaped what they have sewn.<br><br>But the truth
      remains, they're humans, and potentially even Christians,
      but they're just living in something of a time
      warp.<br><br>Meanwhile, you're far more likely to find a pack of actual
      dedicated Christians (who just don't know it) in the local
      coffee shop than you'll find in the nearest (ostensibly
      Christian) , church (and they don't know it).<br><br>And so,
      as one looks at the landscape, it's as good as time
      as ever to set about the business of knowing who you
      are and from whence you came.
    • ernststrohregenmantelrad
      Jesus or Christ. It s not really one or other really. If we pick one over other then you are either adoptionalists or docetists. But the thing about
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 20, 2002
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        Jesus or Christ. It's not really one or other really. If we pick one
        over other then you are either adoptionalists or docetists. But the
        thing about Gnosticism/Christianity is it is both. But the problem
        of the last 2000 or so is not whether one is either, or or both but
        what one does with this mythology. Is mythos real? (well, yes
        and no) The problem has been that all so many will take it as the
        literal truth and that is where it went wrong.


        --- In gnosticism2@y..., hey_market wrote:
        > And yet, perhaps both Jews and Christians and
        > Gnostics really can have it both ways with a simple
        > formula--less Jesus, more Christ.<br><br>If that sounds like
        an
        > ad, then so be it--we need a campaign. <br><br>Or
        > maybe not. <br><br>That is, things have been going in
        > this direction for quite sometime anyway, just so long
        > as one is willing to look beyond the headlines,
        > which scream of dying fundamentalists, more than a few
        > of which are more than willing to take everyone down
        > with them. <br><br>But I suppose you can hardly blame
        > them for screaming in their final moments of agony.
        > Unfortunately, new screams are likely to take their place.
        > <br><br>At any rate, this brings me to the cover of a recent
        > book which proclaims that fundamentlists have stolen
        > Christianity in recent years. I agree with the spirit of the
        > comment, and certainly "get" what he means on the surface
        > of it. But while I haven't read the book and so I'm
        > reluctant to judge, I will say that it seems to me that
        > fundamentalists aren't so much stealing Christianity as they're
        > trying to steal it back--even though they never had it
        > in the first place!<br><br>What I mean is that
        > they've never really been Christians in the first place,
        > and the same goes for most so-called Chistians over
        > the last millennia, who have largely been Jesucians,
        > but not Christians. <br><br>Maybe it all happened
        > back when Augustine and his boys insisted on the
        > divine and human nature of Jesus--and most important,
        > ONLY their exclusive interpretation of this
        > hypostatis--or later with the whole transubstantiation
        > business.<br><br>Whatever. Who wants to split the long hairs
        of Jesus any
        > longer? He's sportin a crew by now. Maybe forensic
        > experts will find something there, but certainly not
        > anybody who's recently been really paying attention to,
        > oh, recorded history.<br><br>But the main thing is
        > that it is Christ who can be within us. But Jesus?
        > He's back there--in the rear view mirror--not to be
        > forgotten, to be sure, and a great guy we all can agree, not
        > to mention the fact that after all these years he
        > still looks terrific on crushed velvet paintings
        > (perhaps his greatest miracle of all).<br><br>So hang him
        > on the wall if it does your soul good. And hang him
        > on a cross, if there's still spiritual progress to
        > be found in the contemplation of mutilation (but tv
        > shos are free). <br><br>But hangin around here? Or
        > within you?<br><br>Hmmm.... 'Pends on what ya mean, I
        > reckon. Seriously though, Jesus is history. Really.
        > History. As such, he's a great figure of history. But
        > Christ on the other hand is present. Ever-present.
        > <br><br>And certainly not limited to Jesucians. <br><br>Moe,
        > being a Christian, that's something else entirely--and
        > it's something there for any who can see a salvific
        > force within, of which Jesus gave witness both within
        > and without.<br><br>But note that Jesucians (that's
        > "Jeh-ZOO-shuns") sounds kinda alien, and indeed, just as
        they are
        > so fond of proclaiming, Jesucians--particularly
        > fundamentalist or orthodox Jesucians--have become
        something of
        > aliens, even amongst their own peoples and even amidst
        > their own families. <br><br>They have becomes strangers
        > in their own houses, and so it is that they have
        > finally reaped what they have sewn.<br><br>But the truth
        > remains, they're humans, and potentially even Christians,
        > but they're just living in something of a time
        > warp.<br><br>Meanwhile, you're far more likely to find a pack
        of actual
        > dedicated Christians (who just don't know it) in the local
        > coffee shop than you'll find in the nearest (ostensibly
        > Christian) , church (and they don't know it).<br><br>And so,
        > as one looks at the landscape, it's as good as time
        > as ever to set about the business of knowing who you
        > are and from whence you came.
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