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Re: Gospel of Thomas not Gnostic???

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  • hey_market
    You seem to embrace speculations at the very same time that you eschew them. However, whether these speculations are learned or not, it s important to
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 17, 2002
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      You seem to embrace speculations at the very same
      time that you eschew them. <br><br>However, whether
      these speculations are learned or not, it's important
      to remember that the experience of gnosis itself is
      not "caught up in terminology." The latter is
      anything but a robe of glory to be worn at gnostic
      commencement. <br><br>Nonetheless, the path to the experience
      of gnosis surely has many signposts. And as your
      message reveals, you are inclined to follow certain
      highly specualtive signposts, so what do those signposts
      tell you and where do they lead you? <br><br>This
      questino of following signposts is a critical question for
      all who seek gnosis.<br><br>Frankly, I personally
      don't see the same signposts as you. And yet, it is
      entirely possible that we are traveling different paths to
      the same destination or origin. <br><br>In any case,
      as noted above, it seems to me that your signs do
      fall into the highly speculative camp, and the nature
      of such speculation is that you highly suspect that
      there a much greater truth than apparent reality would
      indicate--there is a much more elaborate secret and a much
      grander STORY hidden behind common hiSTORY.<br><br>Such
      suspicion is the nature of gnosis, or the road to it. Or
      perhaps more aptly, such suspicion is the very seed of
      gnosis. But this seed usually fails to grow when planted
      in concrete--that is, when we become too attached to
      the stories themselves to let them flower into the
      experience <br>they can become.<br><br>And even when planted
      in more yielding soil, what deoes this suspicion
      beget? We must ask ourselves who and what is on trial as
      we uncover such conspiratorial
      mysteries.<br><br>Hopefully, we're pursuing ultimate Truth, and to that end,
      it is no accident that Gnostics have always loved to
      speculate. This characteristic particularly annoyed and
      alarmed Orthodoxy. <br><br>However, it's important to
      remember that Gnostics speculation as a means to end, and
      that end undoubtedly was not historical or any other
      form of worldly truth. It would be better to say they
      pursued the truth about the world... and more. <br><br>At
      any rate, they most assuredly didn't hope to find
      truth in the speculations themselves, that is, to
      discover a literal or real-world historical truth. Rather,
      if anything, they hoped to escape these so-called
      truths, which were just so many lies or perceptual
      prisons to them vs. the freedom of really knowing (i.e.,
      insightfully experiencing) the ultimate divine Truth of our
      being. <br><br>To put it another way, to experience the
      reality that really exists.<br><br>In short, they knew
      that we need to closely watch how we attach ourselves
      to our speculations, whatever they may be.
      <br><br>And the more removed from reality they may be, the
      more closely we ought to watch them, for this distance
      likely means that we are either closer to approaching
      our ultimate destination--knowing ultimate
      reality--or else ultimate lunacy.<br><br>As to the latter, in
      my mind, ultimate lunacy might be definied as
      separation from both worldly reality AND divine reality.
      This is an experience most Gnostics encounter along
      their way, but at the same time, it's no fun and we
      would do well to minize this gulf of separation, or
      else fina ourselves caught in an accursed middle
      ground or middle world--floating in a space all of our
      own, which is increasingly removed from both the earth
      and the Pleroma. <br><br>And so, we all must ask,
      does our speculation widen this gulf or act as a
      bridge to bring us from one reality or the next? And to
      which reality does the boatman of our speculations row
      us? Which destination do we seek?<br><br>Are we most
      concerned with historical reality or divine reality?
      <br><br>Of course, only you can answer and address what your
      personal concern is in the case of your speculation about
      the life of Jesus in India.
    • ernststrohregenmantelrad
      emic vs. etic and that is the answer to this post. ... experience ... Such ... planted ... and to that end, ... your
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 20, 2002
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        "emic" vs. "etic"

        and that is the answer to this post.


        --- In gnosticism2@y..., hey_market wrote:
        > You seem to embrace speculations at the very same
        > time that you eschew them. <br><br>However, whether
        > these speculations are learned or not, it's important
        > to remember that the experience of gnosis itself is
        > not "caught up in terminology." The latter is
        > anything but a robe of glory to be worn at gnostic
        > commencement. <br><br>Nonetheless, the path to the
        experience
        > of gnosis surely has many signposts. And as your
        > message reveals, you are inclined to follow certain
        > highly specualtive signposts, so what do those signposts
        > tell you and where do they lead you? <br><br>This
        > questino of following signposts is a critical question for
        > all who seek gnosis.<br><br>Frankly, I personally
        > don't see the same signposts as you. And yet, it is
        > entirely possible that we are traveling different paths to
        > the same destination or origin. <br><br>In any case,
        > as noted above, it seems to me that your signs do
        > fall into the highly speculative camp, and the nature
        > of such speculation is that you highly suspect that
        > there a much greater truth than apparent reality would
        > indicate--there is a much more elaborate secret and a much
        > grander STORY hidden behind common hiSTORY.<br><br>
        Such
        > suspicion is the nature of gnosis, or the road to it. Or
        > perhaps more aptly, such suspicion is the very seed of
        > gnosis. But this seed usually fails to grow when planted
        > in concrete--that is, when we become too attached to
        > the stories themselves to let them flower into the
        > experience <br>they can become.<br><br>And even when
        planted
        > in more yielding soil, what deoes this suspicion
        > beget? We must ask ourselves who and what is on trial as
        > we uncover such conspiratorial
        > mysteries.<br><br>Hopefully, we're pursuing ultimate Truth,
        and to that end,
        > it is no accident that Gnostics have always loved to
        > speculate. This characteristic particularly annoyed and
        > alarmed Orthodoxy. <br><br>However, it's important to
        > remember that Gnostics speculation as a means to end, and
        > that end undoubtedly was not historical or any other
        > form of worldly truth. It would be better to say they
        > pursued the truth about the world... and more. <br><br>At
        > any rate, they most assuredly didn't hope to find
        > truth in the speculations themselves, that is, to
        > discover a literal or real-world historical truth. Rather,
        > if anything, they hoped to escape these so-called
        > truths, which were just so many lies or perceptual
        > prisons to them vs. the freedom of really knowing (i.e.,
        > insightfully experiencing) the ultimate divine Truth of our
        > being. <br><br>To put it another way, to experience the
        > reality that really exists.<br><br>In short, they knew
        > that we need to closely watch how we attach ourselves
        > to our speculations, whatever they may be.
        > <br><br>And the more removed from reality they may be, the
        > more closely we ought to watch them, for this distance
        > likely means that we are either closer to approaching
        > our ultimate destination--knowing ultimate
        > reality--or else ultimate lunacy.<br><br>As to the latter, in
        > my mind, ultimate lunacy might be definied as
        > separation from both worldly reality AND divine reality.
        > This is an experience most Gnostics encounter along
        > their way, but at the same time, it's no fun and we
        > would do well to minize this gulf of separation, or
        > else fina ourselves caught in an accursed middle
        > ground or middle world--floating in a space all of our
        > own, which is increasingly removed from both the earth
        > and the Pleroma. <br><br>And so, we all must ask,
        > does our speculation widen this gulf or act as a
        > bridge to bring us from one reality or the next? And to
        > which reality does the boatman of our speculations row
        > us? Which destination do we seek?<br><br>Are we most
        > concerned with historical reality or divine reality?
        > <br><br>Of course, only you can answer and address what
        your
        > personal concern is in the case of your speculation about
        > the life of Jesus in India.
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