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Re: which bible translation represents the gnostic thought

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  • JmessL9
    Ken....I have found many passages even whole chapters within the Bible that support the Gnostic view point. To me though, the thing about Truth I am not so
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 9, 2011
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      Ken....I have found many passages even whole chapters within the Bible that support the Gnostic view point. To me though, the thing about Truth I am not so sure it can been found or truly learned, but rather is only remembered. It is a part of us...we are living examples of it in many diverse ways...we open to inner knowledge as we acknowledge in others...not by their `appearance' but at the soul level...and we remember the essence of God is Love.
      All these can be found at (http://www.biblegateway.com) Which is a great reference site and has all the different versions for comparison that are very easy to jump back and forth too.


      John chapters 1, 14, 15, 17 (We are all One..within the One)
      Matt 5:13-14, 5:17-20, 5:38-48 (
      Luke 17:20-21 (the Kingdom within)
      Mark 9:33-40 (other teachers)
      Ecclas: 1 (letting go of worldly (exoteric) knownledge.)
      Psalm: 46:10, 82:6 (Eternal connection to God)
      Matt: 16:21-28 (shedding the ego)
      1 Corinthians 12 (the same spirit/light/energy in all things equal)
      1 Corinthians 13 (pride and knowledge mean nothing without love and compassion for all)

      There are many others...but no sense getting carried away hee, hee...to learn that "..the Comforter, even the Spirit of Truth is there within to remind you of all these things..."

      With peace j
    • ken5906
      ... Sure, you can find stuff like that mixed in among all the stuff the literalists added, but why bother? If you want to know what the Gnostics believed why
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 11, 2011
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        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "JmessL9" <jandrew99@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Ken....I have found many passages even whole chapters within the Bible that support the Gnostic view point. To me though, the thing about Truth I am not so sure it can been found or truly learned, but rather is only remembered. It is a part of us...we are living examples of it in many diverse ways...we open to inner knowledge as we acknowledge in others...not by their `appearance' but at the soul level...and we remember the essence of God is Love.
        > All these can be found at (http://www.biblegateway.com) Which is a great reference site and has all the different versions for comparison that are very easy to jump back and forth too.
        >

        Sure, you can find stuff like that mixed in among all the stuff the literalists added, but why bother? If you want to know what the Gnostics believed why not read what the Gnostics wrote?

        Ken
      • JmessL9
        Ken..sorry i directed my post to you...when it was Steven that asked the question...however since you responded may I answer your question, Why read the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 12, 2011
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          Ken..sorry i directed my post to you...when it was Steven that asked the question...however since you responded may I answer your question, 'Why' read the bible at all, if what you want to study in Gnostic Text'.

          Well for starters its not about finding the right 'stuff' to read as if we don't we have somehow 'lost out'. What are we seeking when we are searching for anything in the 'world' in regards to Truth?

          We are searching (I presume) for answers yes, but I might contend that those that do care enough to 'search' are only fulfilling a singular role for the 'collective consciousness' We do it because we care about Truth more than we choose to think we are 'right' (which is the seat of the many ego's dogmas that have controled the collective consciouness down through the ages..thinking we can read or learn or find our inner--through the outer first...when all along we know the outer is a reflection of the inner first and foremost until we learn to still the go so the spirit can be our teacher.

          I think of the study for truth is a journey that should take a true seeker down many avenues of worldly knowledge. I think it is so important we use our power of discerment to rightfully discern the difference between the exoteric and the esoteric.

          No matter what you want to say about the Gnostic Text and all texts that we can describe as Sacred Knowledge past down...it sill is a round-about-way, somehow elses perceptions. Perception that we will eventually discover are someones 'perceptions' that are filtered through their cultural filtered minds, attitudes towards life, and of course an individual beliefs.

          The last thing the Gnostic teachers imagined was that another 'dogma' to surpress truth and man's subsquent Freedom, for another 'church' to round up human cattle force-feeding their version of the Truth---was this their goal! I think not.

          No their Goal was to keep the exoteric knowledge as pure as possible under the conditions of those times and climes. Perhpas one reason, and it is a good as any, to provide for the less 'adaptive or resillient student, to have as a symbol liken to a lamp upon a hill. But as souls we come into this world from many directions and from here...at first at-least, we pick up many 'filters' or lens to perceive the world. And until we understand the ego attempt to distract us from our real mind, our true self the importance of 'intuition' or inner perceptions guided by the Heart (Esoteric)and not the head (intellectual) or the Exosteric.

          Jesus said, '...The letter killeth, but the Spirit gives Life' Which I suspect you ment with your 'literealist' comment in your post.

          Yes i know this is a Gnostic forum, but we should be able to make these references or connections with their teachings... least we never ventures to studied other fine works such as buddhism, taoism, confuciousim, or whatever... I read the Gnostic scripts first because many 'conservatives' in dicussions painted me as such...before I even read them...thus my study was more from this point than anything else, and I was amazed how right they were to call my such... I think the term was a Hindu-Buddha-Gnostic Myistic...but certainly not a true Christain, as if for this reason I was really lost or 'unsaved.'

          when I first read the gnostic books, specifically The Gospel of Thomas I found much in agreement with the above perspective...from my point of view...does it mean I understand? Perhaps for now, it does, but in this world it is the change of perceptions that will evenutally restore the fallen...they will Remember they only thought they fell...and the shedding of the guilt for this action, will mark their return home, or atleast the the beginning of the end.

          with peace james
        • banderaken
          ... No. I m not searching. I found what I was searching for several years ago. However what I found and how I found it has nothing to do with the focus of this
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 19, 2011
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "JmessL9" <jandrew99@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Ken..sorry i directed my post to you...when it was Steven that asked the question...however since you responded may I answer your question, 'Why' read the bible at all, if what you want to study in Gnostic Text'.
            >
            > Well for starters its not about finding the right 'stuff' to read as if we don't we have somehow 'lost out'. What are we seeking when we are searching for anything in the 'world' in regards to Truth?
            >
            > We are searching (I presume) for answers yes,

            No. I'm not searching. I found what I was searching for several years ago. However what I found and how I found it has nothing to do with the focus of this group which is historical Gnosticism.

            Ken
          • Mark
            Steven, This is a good question. All translations are interpretations. Interpretations are based on a worldview. When presented with more than one alternative
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 20, 2011
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              Steven,

              This is a good question. All translations are interpretations. Interpretations are based on a worldview. When presented with more than one alternative for translating a text, whether it be a single word, a clause, a sentence, or a text, the tendency is to choose a translation that supports one's world view. One can of course narrow down the alternatives based on higher critical skills, but often it comes down to a choice. This would allow for the possibility of a Bible translation having a drift toward a Gnostic point of view.

              However, I doubt that you would find a modern translation of the Bible that had such a "drift" (though I am open to being corrected on this--if there is one). The reason I think this is that Gnosticism--as a viable, vibrant, and competing worldview, is a historical view that was present for a few centuries before and after the time of Jesus. This means that if you really want to find a Bible translation with a Gnostic point of view, you need to look at translations that were done when Gnosticism was actively competing as a worldview. In other words, you need to look at the Bible when it was being formed as the "Bible."

              The Bible grew up in a period when there were highly competive worldviews at play. One "Bible" had as much weight as another "Bible" until orthodoxy stepped in and said this group of writings is the "Bible." Thus, other scriptures (ie., competing "Bibles") existed at one time and these have been handed down to us through such writings as the Gospel of Thomas and many others. These are "Bibles" as much as the "Holy Bible" is and they definitely have a Gnostic "drift." But, this Gnostic worldview as found its way into the "Holy Bible," as has been pointed out. This "Holy Bible" is a translation (and therefore an interpretation) of an oral tradition and a written tradition, and with each of these very early translations/interpretations, the Gnostic worldview was alive and well and informing some of those who "passed down" the Holy Bible.

              So read the Gnostic literature, as some have pointed out--it is as much a "Bible" as the "Holy Bible." Read also those passages in the "Holy Bible," as some have pointed out, which were "filtered" through the Gnostic worldview. However, don't look for a modern translation that is a Gnostic interpretation, because Gnosticism is a historical artifact and not a current worldview--though there are many gnostics who are alive and well today.

              Mark

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "sbaldwin2" <sbaldwin2@...> wrote:
              >
              > greetings,
              >
              > Question - which of the various Bible translations out on the market represent the gnostic thought or as close as can be?
              >
              > Open to ideas.
              >
              > Thank you,
              >
              > Steven Baldwin
              >
            • Shohn
              Shalom Steven: This may help: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/184-0669574-9402011?a=1563380390 It is just a start though. Coconut pie,
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 20, 2011
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                Shalom Steven:


                It is just a start though.

                Coconut pie,

                Shohn 



                On Jan 20, 2011, at 8:31 PM, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:

                 

                Steven,

                This is a good question. All translations are interpretations. Interpretations are based on a worldview. When presented with more than one alternative for translating a text, whether it be a single word, a clause, a sentence, or a text, the tendency is to choose a translation that supports one's world view. One can of course narrow down the alternatives based on higher critical skills, but often it comes down to a choice. This would allow for the possibility of a Bible translation having a drift toward a Gnostic point of view.

                However, I doubt that you would find a modern translation of the Bible that had such a "drift" (though I am open to being corrected on this--if there is one). The reason I think this is that Gnosticism--as a viable, vibrant, and competing worldview, is a historical view that was present for a few centuries before and after the time of Jesus. This means that if you really want to find a Bible translation with a Gnostic point of view, you need to look at translations that were done when Gnosticism was actively competing as a worldview. In other words, you need to look at the Bible when it was being formed as the "Bible."

                The Bible grew up in a period when there were highly competive worldviews at play. One "Bible" had as much weight as another "Bible" until orthodoxy stepped in and said this group of writings is the "Bible." Thus, other scriptures (ie., competing "Bibles") existed at one time and these have been handed down to us through such writings as the Gospel of Thomas and many others. These are "Bibles" as much as the "Holy Bible" is and they definitely have a Gnostic "drift." But, this Gnostic worldview as found its way into the "Holy Bible," as has been pointed out. This "Holy Bible" is a translation (and therefore an interpretation) of an oral tradition and a written tradition, and with each of these very early translations/interpretations, the Gnostic worldview was alive and well and informing some of those who "passed down" the Holy Bible.

                So read the Gnostic literature, as some have pointed out--it is as much a "Bible" as the "Holy Bible." Read also those passages in the "Holy Bible," as some have pointed out, which were "filtered" through the Gnostic worldview. However, don't look for a modern translation that is a Gnostic interpretation, because Gnosticism is a historical artifact and not a current worldview--though there are many gnostics who are alive and well today.

                Mark

                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "sbaldwin2" <sbaldwin2@...> wrote:
                >
                > greetings,
                >
                > Question - which of the various Bible translations out on the market represent the gnostic thought or as close as can be?
                >
                > Open to ideas.
                >
                > Thank you,
                >
                > Steven Baldwin
                >

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