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Re: Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition

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  • Mark
    Kurt31416, Superstition in one age is sound religion in another. Mark
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 29 9:08 AM
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      Kurt31416,

      Superstition in one age is sound religion in another.

      Mark

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@...> wrote:
      >
      > Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition
      >
      > Little in biblical scholarship is as revealing of truth, as what is
      > left of Q after you remove the Thomas and Didache parallels. (Said
      > Thomas/Q and Didache/Q parallels available upon request.) Safe to say
      > there are zero, ZERO sayings in Q, paralleled in Thomas, that have
      > explicit superstition from the viewpoint of modern science..A typical
      > parallel saying would be how if the blind leads the blind, both
      > would fall into a ditch, or you see the speck in your brother's eye,
      > but don't see the beam in your own. Clever, corn-pone Aesop kind of
      > sayings generally.
      >
      > But what's left after you subtract out Thomas (and the little
      > cluster of
      > Didache sayings) is very very different. No clever corn-pone Aesop
      > kind of sayings.
      >
      > People love to claim that much of Thomas was added later. If so,
      > where
      > is the explicit superstition? It's the first thing Christians or
      > Gnostics would add. Supernatural beings (demons, angels, satans,
      > etc.), magical miracles (walking on water, raising the dead, etc.),
      > and of course, claiming to be some kind of god. Some people don't
      > seem
      > to know what explicit superstition means. Easy to find an example,
      > it's about half of what was added to Thomas, to make Q. A good part
      > of
      > the other half is shameless bragging of how special he is.
      >
      > Not like we don't have a good example of how superstition would have
      > been added to Thomas, we have an example, it's
      > known to Biblical scholars as Q.
      >
      > *****Q - Thomas (and Didache) parallels*****
      >
      > 3:7-9 [John the Baptist] said to the multitudes that came out to be
      > baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
      > the
      > wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to
      > say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you,
      > God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
      > now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore
      > that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
      >
      > 3:16-17 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who
      > is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not
      > worthy
      > to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
      > winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to
      > gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with
      > unquenchable fire."
      >
      > 4:1-13 Jesus, full of the Holy spirit, returned from the Jordan and
      > was
      > led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the
      > devil. He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was
      > hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command
      > this stone to become bread." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man
      > shall not live by bread alone." The devil took him up, and showed him
      > all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him,
      > "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has
      > been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will, if you, then,
      > will
      > worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, 'It is
      > written, 'you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you
      > serve.'" He took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the
      > temple and said to him 'If you are the Son of God throw yourself down
      > from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,
      > to guard you, and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you
      > strike your foot against a stone.' " Jesus answered him, "It is said,
      > 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "And when the devil had
      > ended
      > every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
      >
      > 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is
      > fully
      > taught will be like his teacher.
      >
      > 6:46 Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
      >
      > 6:47-49 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I
      > will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who
      > dug deep, and built the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose,
      > the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because
      > it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like
      > a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, against
      > which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that
      > house was great.
      >
      > 7:1-10 A centurion had a slave who was dear to him who was sick and
      > at
      > the point of death. When he heard of Jesus he sent to him elders of
      > the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to
      > Jesus they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you
      > do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our
      > synagogue." Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house,
      > the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord do not trouble
      > yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;
      > therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and
      > let my
      > servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers
      > under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to
      > another, 'come,'
      > and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it," when Jesus
      > heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude
      > that followed him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such
      > faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they
      > found
      > the slave well.
      >
      > 7:18-23 The disciples of John told him all these things. John
      > calling to
      > him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, 'Are you he
      > who is to come, or shall we look or another?" When the men had come
      > to
      > him, they said, John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, Are you
      > he who is to come or shall we look for another?' In that hour he
      > cured
      > many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were
      > blind he bestowed sight. He answered them, "Go and tell John what you
      > have seen and heard; the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
      > lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the
      > poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is he who takes no
      > offense at me."
      >
      > 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
      > before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
      >
      > 7:31-34 To what shall I compare the men of this generation, and what
      > are
      > they like? They are like children sitting in the market place and
      > calling to one another, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we
      > wailed, and you did not weep. John the Baptist has come eating no
      > bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' The Son of
      > man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and
      > a
      > drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
      >
      > 7:35 Wisdom is justified by all her children."
      >
      > 9:59-60 To another he said, Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me
      > first go and bury my father." But he said to him, leave the dead to
      > bury
      > their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
      >
      > 10:3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of
      > wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; salute no one on the
      > road.
      > Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if
      > a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not,
      > it
      > shall return to you.
      >
      > 10:10-11 Whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go
      > into
      > its streets and say: 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our
      > feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the
      > kingdom
      > of God has come near.'
      >
      > 10:12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom
      > than
      > for that town.
      >
      > 10:13-15 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the
      > mighty
      > works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have
      > repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
      > more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And
      > you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought
      > down
      > to Hades.
      >
      > 10:16 He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me,
      > and
      > he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
      >
      > 10:21-22 He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank thee,
      > Father,
      > Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the
      > wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for
      > such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by
      > my
      > Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the
      > Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to
      > reveal
      > him.'
      >
      > 10:23-24 Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! For I tell you
      > that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not
      > see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
      >
      > 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will
      > instead
      > of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give
      > him
      > a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
      > to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the
      > Holy
      > Spirit to those who ask him!
      >
      > 11:14-15 He was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had
      > gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. But some of
      > them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons"
      >
      > 11:17-18 "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and
      > house
      > falls upon house. If Satan also is divided against himself, how can
      > his
      > kingdom stand?
      >
      > 11:19 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub. If I cast out
      > demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore
      > they shall be your judges.
      >
      > 11:20 If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the
      > kingdom of God has come upon you.
      >
      > 11:23 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
      > with me scatters.
      >
      > 11:24-26 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes
      > through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, I
      > will return to my house from which I came.' When he comes he finds it
      > swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven spirits more
      > evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last
      > state of
      > that man becomes worse than the first.
      >
      > 11:29 This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no
      > sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
      >
      > 11:30 As Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son
      > of
      > man be to this generation.
      >
      > 11:31-32 The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the
      > men
      > of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
      > the
      > earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater
      > than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment
      > with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the
      > preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
      >
      > 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every
      > herb,
      > and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have
      > done,
      > without neglecting the others.
      >
      > 11:43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the
      > synagogues
      > and salutations in the Market places.
      >
      > 11:44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men
      > walk over them without knowing it."
      >
      > 11:46 Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to
      > bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your
      > fingers.
      >
      > 11:47-48 Woe to you for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your
      > fathers killed. So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your
      > fathers; they killed them, and you build their tombs. 11:49-51 The
      > Wisdom of God said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of
      > whom they will kill and persecute,' that the blood of all the
      > prophets, shed from the foundation of the world may be required of
      > this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
      > who
      > perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it
      > shall
      > be required of this generation.
      >
      > 12:4-5 I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
      > and
      > after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to
      > fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;
      > yes, I tell you fear him!
      >
      > 12:8-9 I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son
      > of
      > man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies
      > me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
      >
      > 12:11-12 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and
      > the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or
      > what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very
      > hour what you ought to say.
      >
      > 12:33-34 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide your selves
      > with
      > purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does
      > not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where
      > your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
      >
      > 12:39-40 If the householder had known at what hour the thief was
      > coming,
      > he would have been awake and would not have let his house to be
      > broken
      > into, you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour
      > you do not expect.
      >
      > 12:42-46 The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward,
      > whom
      > his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of
      > food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his
      > master when he comes will find so doing. Truly I tell you, he will
      > set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to
      > himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat
      > the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get
      > drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not
      > expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and
      > put him with the unfaithful.
      >
      > 12:57-59 Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go
      > with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle
      > with
      > him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you
      > over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you,
      > you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.
      >
      > 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will
      > seek to enter and will not be able.
      >
      > 13:25-27 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,
      > you
      > will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying,
      > 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you
      > come from,' Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in
      > your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I
      > tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all
      > you workers of iniquity!'
      >
      > 13:28-29 You will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and
      > Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and
      > you yourselves thrust out. Men will come from east and west, and
      > from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of
      > God.
      >
      > 13:34-35 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often would I have gathered your
      > children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you
      > would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. I tell you, you will not
      > see me until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
      > Lord!"
      >
      > 14:34-35 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its
      > saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the
      > dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
      >
      > 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good
      > news
      > of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
      >
      > 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
      > dot
      > of the law to become void.
      >
      > 16:18 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits
      > adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband
      > commits
      > adultery.
      >
      > 17:1-2 Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom
      > they
      > come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his
      > neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of
      > these little ones to sin.
      >
      > 17:3-4 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive
      > him;
      > and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
      > seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.
      >
      > 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" The Lord
      > said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to
      > this mulberry tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it
      > would obey you."
      >
      > 17:24 As the lightning lights up the sky from one side to the other,
      > so
      > will Son of man be in his day.
      >
      > 17:26-27 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of
      > the
      > Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in
      > marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came
      > and destroyed then all.
      >
      > 17:28-30 As it was in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they
      > bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot
      > went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and
      > destroyed them all. So will it be on the day when the Son of man is
      > revealed.
      >
      > 17:37 They said to him, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the
      > corpse is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
      >
      > 19:12-24 He said to them, "A nobleman went into a far country to
      > receive
      > kingly power and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave
      > them
      > ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' But his
      > citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not
      > want this man to reign over us.' When he returned, having received
      > the
      > kingly power, he commanded these servants to whom he had given the
      > money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained
      > by
      > trading. The first came before him saying 'Lord, your pound has made
      > ten pounds more.' And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant!
      > Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have
      > authority over ten cities.' The second came, saying, 'Lord, your
      > pound
      > has made five pounds,' He said to him; 'And you are to be over five
      > cities.' Then another came, saying, 'Lord here is your pound, which I
      > kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are
      > a
      > severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you
      > did not sow.' He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own
      > mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking
      > up
      > what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did
      > you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have
      > collected it with interest?' He said to those who stood by, 'Take the
      > pound from him, and give it to him who has ten pounds.' They said to
      > him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!'
      >
      > 22:28-30 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my
      > Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you
      > may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
      > judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
      >
    • kurt31416
      Hi Mark, Superstition from the viewpoint of science. If that can t be defined, nothing can be defined. Not a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 29 12:42 PM
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        Hi Mark,

        Superstition from the viewpoint of science. If that can't be defined, nothing can be defined. Not a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.

        And, according to Elain Pagel's theory, GJohn was edited/created to refute the "doubting Thomas" of the Gospel of Thomas. So, even at the time of Jesus, the Gospel of Thomas was considered noticably free of superstition.

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
        >
        > Kurt31416,
        >
        > Superstition in one age is sound religion in another.
        >
        > Mark
        >
        > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition
        > >
        > > Little in biblical scholarship is as revealing of truth, as what is
        > > left of Q after you remove the Thomas and Didache parallels. (Said
        > > Thomas/Q and Didache/Q parallels available upon request.) Safe to say
        > > there are zero, ZERO sayings in Q, paralleled in Thomas, that have
        > > explicit superstition from the viewpoint of modern science..A typical
        > > parallel saying would be how if the blind leads the blind, both
        > > would fall into a ditch, or you see the speck in your brother's eye,
        > > but don't see the beam in your own. Clever, corn-pone Aesop kind of
        > > sayings generally.
        > >
        > > But what's left after you subtract out Thomas (and the little
        > > cluster of
        > > Didache sayings) is very very different. No clever corn-pone Aesop
        > > kind of sayings.
        > >
        > > People love to claim that much of Thomas was added later. If so,
        > > where
        > > is the explicit superstition? It's the first thing Christians or
        > > Gnostics would add. Supernatural beings (demons, angels, satans,
        > > etc.), magical miracles (walking on water, raising the dead, etc.),
        > > and of course, claiming to be some kind of god. Some people don't
        > > seem
        > > to know what explicit superstition means. Easy to find an example,
        > > it's about half of what was added to Thomas, to make Q. A good part
        > > of
        > > the other half is shameless bragging of how special he is.
        > >
        > > Not like we don't have a good example of how superstition would have
        > > been added to Thomas, we have an example, it's
        > > known to Biblical scholars as Q.
        > >
        > > *****Q - Thomas (and Didache) parallels*****
        > >
        > > 3:7-9 [John the Baptist] said to the multitudes that came out to be
        > > baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
        > > the
        > > wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to
        > > say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you,
        > > God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
        > > now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore
        > > that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
        > >
        > > 3:16-17 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who
        > > is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not
        > > worthy
        > > to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
        > > winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to
        > > gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with
        > > unquenchable fire."
        > >
        > > 4:1-13 Jesus, full of the Holy spirit, returned from the Jordan and
        > > was
        > > led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the
        > > devil. He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was
        > > hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command
        > > this stone to become bread." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man
        > > shall not live by bread alone." The devil took him up, and showed him
        > > all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him,
        > > "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has
        > > been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will, if you, then,
        > > will
        > > worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, 'It is
        > > written, 'you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you
        > > serve.'" He took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the
        > > temple and said to him 'If you are the Son of God throw yourself down
        > > from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,
        > > to guard you, and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you
        > > strike your foot against a stone.' " Jesus answered him, "It is said,
        > > 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "And when the devil had
        > > ended
        > > every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
        > >
        > > 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is
        > > fully
        > > taught will be like his teacher.
        > >
        > > 6:46 Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
        > >
        > > 6:47-49 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I
        > > will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who
        > > dug deep, and built the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose,
        > > the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because
        > > it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like
        > > a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, against
        > > which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that
        > > house was great.
        > >
        > > 7:1-10 A centurion had a slave who was dear to him who was sick and
        > > at
        > > the point of death. When he heard of Jesus he sent to him elders of
        > > the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to
        > > Jesus they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you
        > > do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our
        > > synagogue." Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house,
        > > the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord do not trouble
        > > yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;
        > > therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and
        > > let my
        > > servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers
        > > under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to
        > > another, 'come,'
        > > and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it," when Jesus
        > > heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude
        > > that followed him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such
        > > faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they
        > > found
        > > the slave well.
        > >
        > > 7:18-23 The disciples of John told him all these things. John
        > > calling to
        > > him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, 'Are you he
        > > who is to come, or shall we look or another?" When the men had come
        > > to
        > > him, they said, John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, Are you
        > > he who is to come or shall we look for another?' In that hour he
        > > cured
        > > many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were
        > > blind he bestowed sight. He answered them, "Go and tell John what you
        > > have seen and heard; the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
        > > lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the
        > > poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is he who takes no
        > > offense at me."
        > >
        > > 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
        > > before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
        > >
        > > 7:31-34 To what shall I compare the men of this generation, and what
        > > are
        > > they like? They are like children sitting in the market place and
        > > calling to one another, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we
        > > wailed, and you did not weep. John the Baptist has come eating no
        > > bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' The Son of
        > > man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and
        > > a
        > > drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
        > >
        > > 7:35 Wisdom is justified by all her children."
        > >
        > > 9:59-60 To another he said, Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me
        > > first go and bury my father." But he said to him, leave the dead to
        > > bury
        > > their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
        > >
        > > 10:3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of
        > > wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; salute no one on the
        > > road.
        > > Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if
        > > a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not,
        > > it
        > > shall return to you.
        > >
        > > 10:10-11 Whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go
        > > into
        > > its streets and say: 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our
        > > feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the
        > > kingdom
        > > of God has come near.'
        > >
        > > 10:12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom
        > > than
        > > for that town.
        > >
        > > 10:13-15 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the
        > > mighty
        > > works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have
        > > repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
        > > more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And
        > > you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought
        > > down
        > > to Hades.
        > >
        > > 10:16 He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me,
        > > and
        > > he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
        > >
        > > 10:21-22 He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank thee,
        > > Father,
        > > Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the
        > > wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for
        > > such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by
        > > my
        > > Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the
        > > Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to
        > > reveal
        > > him.'
        > >
        > > 10:23-24 Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! For I tell you
        > > that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not
        > > see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
        > >
        > > 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will
        > > instead
        > > of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give
        > > him
        > > a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
        > > to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the
        > > Holy
        > > Spirit to those who ask him!
        > >
        > > 11:14-15 He was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had
        > > gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. But some of
        > > them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons"
        > >
        > > 11:17-18 "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and
        > > house
        > > falls upon house. If Satan also is divided against himself, how can
        > > his
        > > kingdom stand?
        > >
        > > 11:19 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub. If I cast out
        > > demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore
        > > they shall be your judges.
        > >
        > > 11:20 If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the
        > > kingdom of God has come upon you.
        > >
        > > 11:23 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
        > > with me scatters.
        > >
        > > 11:24-26 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes
        > > through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, I
        > > will return to my house from which I came.' When he comes he finds it
        > > swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven spirits more
        > > evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last
        > > state of
        > > that man becomes worse than the first.
        > >
        > > 11:29 This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no
        > > sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
        > >
        > > 11:30 As Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son
        > > of
        > > man be to this generation.
        > >
        > > 11:31-32 The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the
        > > men
        > > of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
        > > the
        > > earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater
        > > than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment
        > > with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the
        > > preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
        > >
        > > 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every
        > > herb,
        > > and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have
        > > done,
        > > without neglecting the others.
        > >
        > > 11:43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the
        > > synagogues
        > > and salutations in the Market places.
        > >
        > > 11:44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men
        > > walk over them without knowing it."
        > >
        > > 11:46 Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to
        > > bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your
        > > fingers.
        > >
        > > 11:47-48 Woe to you for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your
        > > fathers killed. So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your
        > > fathers; they killed them, and you build their tombs. 11:49-51 The
        > > Wisdom of God said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of
        > > whom they will kill and persecute,' that the blood of all the
        > > prophets, shed from the foundation of the world may be required of
        > > this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
        > > who
        > > perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it
        > > shall
        > > be required of this generation.
        > >
        > > 12:4-5 I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
        > > and
        > > after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to
        > > fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;
        > > yes, I tell you fear him!
        > >
        > > 12:8-9 I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son
        > > of
        > > man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies
        > > me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
        > >
        > > 12:11-12 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and
        > > the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or
        > > what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very
        > > hour what you ought to say.
        > >
        > > 12:33-34 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide your selves
        > > with
        > > purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does
        > > not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where
        > > your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
        > >
        > > 12:39-40 If the householder had known at what hour the thief was
        > > coming,
        > > he would have been awake and would not have let his house to be
        > > broken
        > > into, you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour
        > > you do not expect.
        > >
        > > 12:42-46 The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward,
        > > whom
        > > his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of
        > > food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his
        > > master when he comes will find so doing. Truly I tell you, he will
        > > set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to
        > > himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat
        > > the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get
        > > drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not
        > > expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and
        > > put him with the unfaithful.
        > >
        > > 12:57-59 Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go
        > > with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle
        > > with
        > > him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you
        > > over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you,
        > > you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.
        > >
        > > 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will
        > > seek to enter and will not be able.
        > >
        > > 13:25-27 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,
        > > you
        > > will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying,
        > > 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you
        > > come from,' Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in
        > > your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I
        > > tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all
        > > you workers of iniquity!'
        > >
        > > 13:28-29 You will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and
        > > Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and
        > > you yourselves thrust out. Men will come from east and west, and
        > > from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of
        > > God.
        > >
        > > 13:34-35 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often would I have gathered your
        > > children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you
        > > would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. I tell you, you will not
        > > see me until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
        > > Lord!"
        > >
        > > 14:34-35 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its
        > > saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the
        > > dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
        > >
        > > 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good
        > > news
        > > of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
        > >
        > > 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
        > > dot
        > > of the law to become void.
        > >
        > > 16:18 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits
        > > adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband
        > > commits
        > > adultery.
        > >
        > > 17:1-2 Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom
        > > they
        > > come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his
        > > neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of
        > > these little ones to sin.
        > >
        > > 17:3-4 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive
        > > him;
        > > and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
        > > seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.
        > >
        > > 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" The Lord
        > > said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to
        > > this mulberry tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it
        > > would obey you."
        > >
        > > 17:24 As the lightning lights up the sky from one side to the other,
        > > so
        > > will Son of man be in his day.
        > >
        > > 17:26-27 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of
        > > the
        > > Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in
        > > marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came
        > > and destroyed then all.
        > >
        > > 17:28-30 As it was in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they
        > > bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot
        > > went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and
        > > destroyed them all. So will it be on the day when the Son of man is
        > > revealed.
        > >
        > > 17:37 They said to him, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the
        > > corpse is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
        > >
        > > 19:12-24 He said to them, "A nobleman went into a far country to
        > > receive
        > > kingly power and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave
        > > them
        > > ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' But his
        > > citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not
        > > want this man to reign over us.' When he returned, having received
        > > the
        > > kingly power, he commanded these servants to whom he had given the
        > > money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained
        > > by
        > > trading. The first came before him saying 'Lord, your pound has made
        > > ten pounds more.' And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant!
        > > Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have
        > > authority over ten cities.' The second came, saying, 'Lord, your
        > > pound
        > > has made five pounds,' He said to him; 'And you are to be over five
        > > cities.' Then another came, saying, 'Lord here is your pound, which I
        > > kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are
        > > a
        > > severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you
        > > did not sow.' He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own
        > > mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking
        > > up
        > > what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did
        > > you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have
        > > collected it with interest?' He said to those who stood by, 'Take the
        > > pound from him, and give it to him who has ten pounds.' They said to
        > > him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!'
        > >
        > > 22:28-30 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my
        > > Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you
        > > may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
        > > judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
        > >
        >
      • Mark
        Hi Kurt, But science as defined by which age? And there has been a lot of change in that in the last few centuries. Mark
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 29 5:10 PM
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          Hi Kurt,

          But science as defined by which age? And there has been a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.

          Mark

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Mark,
          >
          > Superstition from the viewpoint of science. If that can't be defined, nothing can be defined. Not a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
          >
          > And, according to Elain Pagel's theory, GJohn was edited/created to refute the "doubting Thomas" of the Gospel of Thomas. So, even at the time of Jesus, the Gospel of Thomas was considered noticably free of superstition.
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Kurt31416,
          > >
          > > Superstition in one age is sound religion in another.
          > >
          > > Mark
          > >
          > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition
          > > >
          > > > Little in biblical scholarship is as revealing of truth, as what is
          > > > left of Q after you remove the Thomas and Didache parallels. (Said
          > > > Thomas/Q and Didache/Q parallels available upon request.) Safe to say
          > > > there are zero, ZERO sayings in Q, paralleled in Thomas, that have
          > > > explicit superstition from the viewpoint of modern science..A typical
          > > > parallel saying would be how if the blind leads the blind, both
          > > > would fall into a ditch, or you see the speck in your brother's eye,
          > > > but don't see the beam in your own. Clever, corn-pone Aesop kind of
          > > > sayings generally.
          > > >
          > > > But what's left after you subtract out Thomas (and the little
          > > > cluster of
          > > > Didache sayings) is very very different. No clever corn-pone Aesop
          > > > kind of sayings.
          > > >
          > > > People love to claim that much of Thomas was added later. If so,
          > > > where
          > > > is the explicit superstition? It's the first thing Christians or
          > > > Gnostics would add. Supernatural beings (demons, angels, satans,
          > > > etc.), magical miracles (walking on water, raising the dead, etc.),
          > > > and of course, claiming to be some kind of god. Some people don't
          > > > seem
          > > > to know what explicit superstition means. Easy to find an example,
          > > > it's about half of what was added to Thomas, to make Q. A good part
          > > > of
          > > > the other half is shameless bragging of how special he is.
          > > >
          > > > Not like we don't have a good example of how superstition would have
          > > > been added to Thomas, we have an example, it's
          > > > known to Biblical scholars as Q.
          > > >
          > > > *****Q - Thomas (and Didache) parallels*****
          > > >
          > > > 3:7-9 [John the Baptist] said to the multitudes that came out to be
          > > > baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
          > > > the
          > > > wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to
          > > > say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you,
          > > > God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
          > > > now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore
          > > > that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
          > > >
          > > > 3:16-17 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who
          > > > is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not
          > > > worthy
          > > > to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
          > > > winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to
          > > > gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with
          > > > unquenchable fire."
          > > >
          > > > 4:1-13 Jesus, full of the Holy spirit, returned from the Jordan and
          > > > was
          > > > led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the
          > > > devil. He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was
          > > > hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command
          > > > this stone to become bread." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man
          > > > shall not live by bread alone." The devil took him up, and showed him
          > > > all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him,
          > > > "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has
          > > > been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will, if you, then,
          > > > will
          > > > worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, 'It is
          > > > written, 'you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you
          > > > serve.'" He took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the
          > > > temple and said to him 'If you are the Son of God throw yourself down
          > > > from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,
          > > > to guard you, and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you
          > > > strike your foot against a stone.' " Jesus answered him, "It is said,
          > > > 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "And when the devil had
          > > > ended
          > > > every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
          > > >
          > > > 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is
          > > > fully
          > > > taught will be like his teacher.
          > > >
          > > > 6:46 Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
          > > >
          > > > 6:47-49 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I
          > > > will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who
          > > > dug deep, and built the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose,
          > > > the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because
          > > > it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like
          > > > a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, against
          > > > which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that
          > > > house was great.
          > > >
          > > > 7:1-10 A centurion had a slave who was dear to him who was sick and
          > > > at
          > > > the point of death. When he heard of Jesus he sent to him elders of
          > > > the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to
          > > > Jesus they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you
          > > > do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our
          > > > synagogue." Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house,
          > > > the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord do not trouble
          > > > yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;
          > > > therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and
          > > > let my
          > > > servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers
          > > > under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to
          > > > another, 'come,'
          > > > and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it," when Jesus
          > > > heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude
          > > > that followed him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such
          > > > faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they
          > > > found
          > > > the slave well.
          > > >
          > > > 7:18-23 The disciples of John told him all these things. John
          > > > calling to
          > > > him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, 'Are you he
          > > > who is to come, or shall we look or another?" When the men had come
          > > > to
          > > > him, they said, John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, Are you
          > > > he who is to come or shall we look for another?' In that hour he
          > > > cured
          > > > many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were
          > > > blind he bestowed sight. He answered them, "Go and tell John what you
          > > > have seen and heard; the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
          > > > lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the
          > > > poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is he who takes no
          > > > offense at me."
          > > >
          > > > 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
          > > > before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
          > > >
          > > > 7:31-34 To what shall I compare the men of this generation, and what
          > > > are
          > > > they like? They are like children sitting in the market place and
          > > > calling to one another, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we
          > > > wailed, and you did not weep. John the Baptist has come eating no
          > > > bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' The Son of
          > > > man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and
          > > > a
          > > > drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
          > > >
          > > > 7:35 Wisdom is justified by all her children."
          > > >
          > > > 9:59-60 To another he said, Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me
          > > > first go and bury my father." But he said to him, leave the dead to
          > > > bury
          > > > their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
          > > >
          > > > 10:3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of
          > > > wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; salute no one on the
          > > > road.
          > > > Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if
          > > > a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not,
          > > > it
          > > > shall return to you.
          > > >
          > > > 10:10-11 Whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go
          > > > into
          > > > its streets and say: 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our
          > > > feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the
          > > > kingdom
          > > > of God has come near.'
          > > >
          > > > 10:12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom
          > > > than
          > > > for that town.
          > > >
          > > > 10:13-15 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the
          > > > mighty
          > > > works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have
          > > > repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
          > > > more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And
          > > > you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought
          > > > down
          > > > to Hades.
          > > >
          > > > 10:16 He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me,
          > > > and
          > > > he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
          > > >
          > > > 10:21-22 He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank thee,
          > > > Father,
          > > > Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the
          > > > wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for
          > > > such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by
          > > > my
          > > > Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the
          > > > Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to
          > > > reveal
          > > > him.'
          > > >
          > > > 10:23-24 Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! For I tell you
          > > > that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not
          > > > see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
          > > >
          > > > 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will
          > > > instead
          > > > of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give
          > > > him
          > > > a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
          > > > to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the
          > > > Holy
          > > > Spirit to those who ask him!
          > > >
          > > > 11:14-15 He was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had
          > > > gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. But some of
          > > > them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons"
          > > >
          > > > 11:17-18 "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and
          > > > house
          > > > falls upon house. If Satan also is divided against himself, how can
          > > > his
          > > > kingdom stand?
          > > >
          > > > 11:19 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub. If I cast out
          > > > demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore
          > > > they shall be your judges.
          > > >
          > > > 11:20 If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the
          > > > kingdom of God has come upon you.
          > > >
          > > > 11:23 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
          > > > with me scatters.
          > > >
          > > > 11:24-26 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes
          > > > through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, I
          > > > will return to my house from which I came.' When he comes he finds it
          > > > swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven spirits more
          > > > evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last
          > > > state of
          > > > that man becomes worse than the first.
          > > >
          > > > 11:29 This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no
          > > > sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
          > > >
          > > > 11:30 As Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son
          > > > of
          > > > man be to this generation.
          > > >
          > > > 11:31-32 The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the
          > > > men
          > > > of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
          > > > the
          > > > earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater
          > > > than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment
          > > > with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the
          > > > preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
          > > >
          > > > 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every
          > > > herb,
          > > > and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have
          > > > done,
          > > > without neglecting the others.
          > > >
          > > > 11:43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the
          > > > synagogues
          > > > and salutations in the Market places.
          > > >
          > > > 11:44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men
          > > > walk over them without knowing it."
          > > >
          > > > 11:46 Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to
          > > > bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your
          > > > fingers.
          > > >
          > > > 11:47-48 Woe to you for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your
          > > > fathers killed. So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your
          > > > fathers; they killed them, and you build their tombs. 11:49-51 The
          > > > Wisdom of God said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of
          > > > whom they will kill and persecute,' that the blood of all the
          > > > prophets, shed from the foundation of the world may be required of
          > > > this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
          > > > who
          > > > perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it
          > > > shall
          > > > be required of this generation.
          > > >
          > > > 12:4-5 I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
          > > > and
          > > > after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to
          > > > fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;
          > > > yes, I tell you fear him!
          > > >
          > > > 12:8-9 I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son
          > > > of
          > > > man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies
          > > > me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
          > > >
          > > > 12:11-12 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and
          > > > the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or
          > > > what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very
          > > > hour what you ought to say.
          > > >
          > > > 12:33-34 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide your selves
          > > > with
          > > > purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does
          > > > not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where
          > > > your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
          > > >
          > > > 12:39-40 If the householder had known at what hour the thief was
          > > > coming,
          > > > he would have been awake and would not have let his house to be
          > > > broken
          > > > into, you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour
          > > > you do not expect.
          > > >
          > > > 12:42-46 The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward,
          > > > whom
          > > > his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of
          > > > food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his
          > > > master when he comes will find so doing. Truly I tell you, he will
          > > > set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to
          > > > himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat
          > > > the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get
          > > > drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not
          > > > expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and
          > > > put him with the unfaithful.
          > > >
          > > > 12:57-59 Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go
          > > > with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle
          > > > with
          > > > him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you
          > > > over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you,
          > > > you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.
          > > >
          > > > 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will
          > > > seek to enter and will not be able.
          > > >
          > > > 13:25-27 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,
          > > > you
          > > > will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying,
          > > > 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you
          > > > come from,' Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in
          > > > your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I
          > > > tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all
          > > > you workers of iniquity!'
          > > >
          > > > 13:28-29 You will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and
          > > > Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and
          > > > you yourselves thrust out. Men will come from east and west, and
          > > > from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of
          > > > God.
          > > >
          > > > 13:34-35 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often would I have gathered your
          > > > children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you
          > > > would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. I tell you, you will not
          > > > see me until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
          > > > Lord!"
          > > >
          > > > 14:34-35 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its
          > > > saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the
          > > > dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
          > > >
          > > > 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good
          > > > news
          > > > of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
          > > >
          > > > 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
          > > > dot
          > > > of the law to become void.
          > > >
          > > > 16:18 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits
          > > > adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband
          > > > commits
          > > > adultery.
          > > >
          > > > 17:1-2 Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom
          > > > they
          > > > come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his
          > > > neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of
          > > > these little ones to sin.
          > > >
          > > > 17:3-4 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive
          > > > him;
          > > > and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
          > > > seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.
          > > >
          > > > 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" The Lord
          > > > said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to
          > > > this mulberry tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it
          > > > would obey you."
          > > >
          > > > 17:24 As the lightning lights up the sky from one side to the other,
          > > > so
          > > > will Son of man be in his day.
          > > >
          > > > 17:26-27 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of
          > > > the
          > > > Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in
          > > > marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came
          > > > and destroyed then all.
          > > >
          > > > 17:28-30 As it was in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they
          > > > bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot
          > > > went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and
          > > > destroyed them all. So will it be on the day when the Son of man is
          > > > revealed.
          > > >
          > > > 17:37 They said to him, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the
          > > > corpse is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
          > > >
          > > > 19:12-24 He said to them, "A nobleman went into a far country to
          > > > receive
          > > > kingly power and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave
          > > > them
          > > > ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' But his
          > > > citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not
          > > > want this man to reign over us.' When he returned, having received
          > > > the
          > > > kingly power, he commanded these servants to whom he had given the
          > > > money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained
          > > > by
          > > > trading. The first came before him saying 'Lord, your pound has made
          > > > ten pounds more.' And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant!
          > > > Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have
          > > > authority over ten cities.' The second came, saying, 'Lord, your
          > > > pound
          > > > has made five pounds,' He said to him; 'And you are to be over five
          > > > cities.' Then another came, saying, 'Lord here is your pound, which I
          > > > kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are
          > > > a
          > > > severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you
          > > > did not sow.' He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own
          > > > mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking
          > > > up
          > > > what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did
          > > > you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have
          > > > collected it with interest?' He said to those who stood by, 'Take the
          > > > pound from him, and give it to him who has ten pounds.' They said to
          > > > him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!'
          > > >
          > > > 22:28-30 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my
          > > > Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you
          > > > may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
          > > > judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • kurt31416
          Hi Mark, Science defined by any age. I know of no changes in science on the non-superstitious things in Thomas. Miracles, angels, devils, walking zombies,
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 29 6:26 PM
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            Hi Mark,

            Science defined by any age. I know of no changes in science on the non-superstitious things in Thomas. Miracles, angels, devils, walking zombies, virgin birth, etc. have never been science.

            Can you point out something that has changed in science that would apply?

            Rick

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Kurt,
            >
            > But science as defined by which age? And there has been a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
            >
            > Mark
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Mark,
            > >
            > > Superstition from the viewpoint of science. If that can't be defined, nothing can be defined. Not a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
            > >
            > > And, according to Elain Pagel's theory, GJohn was edited/created to refute the "doubting Thomas" of the Gospel of Thomas. So, even at the time of Jesus, the Gospel of Thomas was considered noticably free of superstition.
            > >
            > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Kurt31416,
            > > >
            > > > Superstition in one age is sound religion in another.
            > > >
            > > > Mark
            > > >
            > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition
            > > > >
            > > > > Little in biblical scholarship is as revealing of truth, as what is
            > > > > left of Q after you remove the Thomas and Didache parallels. (Said
            > > > > Thomas/Q and Didache/Q parallels available upon request.) Safe to say
            > > > > there are zero, ZERO sayings in Q, paralleled in Thomas, that have
            > > > > explicit superstition from the viewpoint of modern science..A typical
            > > > > parallel saying would be how if the blind leads the blind, both
            > > > > would fall into a ditch, or you see the speck in your brother's eye,
            > > > > but don't see the beam in your own. Clever, corn-pone Aesop kind of
            > > > > sayings generally.
            > > > >
            > > > > But what's left after you subtract out Thomas (and the little
            > > > > cluster of
            > > > > Didache sayings) is very very different. No clever corn-pone Aesop
            > > > > kind of sayings.
            > > > >
            > > > > People love to claim that much of Thomas was added later. If so,
            > > > > where
            > > > > is the explicit superstition? It's the first thing Christians or
            > > > > Gnostics would add. Supernatural beings (demons, angels, satans,
            > > > > etc.), magical miracles (walking on water, raising the dead, etc.),
            > > > > and of course, claiming to be some kind of god. Some people don't
            > > > > seem
            > > > > to know what explicit superstition means. Easy to find an example,
            > > > > it's about half of what was added to Thomas, to make Q. A good part
            > > > > of
            > > > > the other half is shameless bragging of how special he is.
            > > > >
            > > > > Not like we don't have a good example of how superstition would have
            > > > > been added to Thomas, we have an example, it's
            > > > > known to Biblical scholars as Q.
            > > > >
            > > > > *****Q - Thomas (and Didache) parallels*****
            > > > >
            > > > > 3:7-9 [John the Baptist] said to the multitudes that came out to be
            > > > > baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
            > > > > the
            > > > > wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to
            > > > > say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you,
            > > > > God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
            > > > > now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore
            > > > > that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
            > > > >
            > > > > 3:16-17 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who
            > > > > is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not
            > > > > worthy
            > > > > to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
            > > > > winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to
            > > > > gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with
            > > > > unquenchable fire."
            > > > >
            > > > > 4:1-13 Jesus, full of the Holy spirit, returned from the Jordan and
            > > > > was
            > > > > led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the
            > > > > devil. He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was
            > > > > hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command
            > > > > this stone to become bread." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man
            > > > > shall not live by bread alone." The devil took him up, and showed him
            > > > > all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him,
            > > > > "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has
            > > > > been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will, if you, then,
            > > > > will
            > > > > worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, 'It is
            > > > > written, 'you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you
            > > > > serve.'" He took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the
            > > > > temple and said to him 'If you are the Son of God throw yourself down
            > > > > from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,
            > > > > to guard you, and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you
            > > > > strike your foot against a stone.' " Jesus answered him, "It is said,
            > > > > 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "And when the devil had
            > > > > ended
            > > > > every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
            > > > >
            > > > > 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is
            > > > > fully
            > > > > taught will be like his teacher.
            > > > >
            > > > > 6:46 Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
            > > > >
            > > > > 6:47-49 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I
            > > > > will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who
            > > > > dug deep, and built the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose,
            > > > > the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because
            > > > > it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like
            > > > > a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, against
            > > > > which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that
            > > > > house was great.
            > > > >
            > > > > 7:1-10 A centurion had a slave who was dear to him who was sick and
            > > > > at
            > > > > the point of death. When he heard of Jesus he sent to him elders of
            > > > > the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to
            > > > > Jesus they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you
            > > > > do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our
            > > > > synagogue." Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house,
            > > > > the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord do not trouble
            > > > > yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;
            > > > > therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and
            > > > > let my
            > > > > servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers
            > > > > under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to
            > > > > another, 'come,'
            > > > > and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it," when Jesus
            > > > > heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude
            > > > > that followed him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such
            > > > > faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they
            > > > > found
            > > > > the slave well.
            > > > >
            > > > > 7:18-23 The disciples of John told him all these things. John
            > > > > calling to
            > > > > him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, 'Are you he
            > > > > who is to come, or shall we look or another?" When the men had come
            > > > > to
            > > > > him, they said, John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, Are you
            > > > > he who is to come or shall we look for another?' In that hour he
            > > > > cured
            > > > > many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were
            > > > > blind he bestowed sight. He answered them, "Go and tell John what you
            > > > > have seen and heard; the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
            > > > > lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the
            > > > > poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is he who takes no
            > > > > offense at me."
            > > > >
            > > > > 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
            > > > > before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
            > > > >
            > > > > 7:31-34 To what shall I compare the men of this generation, and what
            > > > > are
            > > > > they like? They are like children sitting in the market place and
            > > > > calling to one another, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we
            > > > > wailed, and you did not weep. John the Baptist has come eating no
            > > > > bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' The Son of
            > > > > man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and
            > > > > a
            > > > > drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
            > > > >
            > > > > 7:35 Wisdom is justified by all her children."
            > > > >
            > > > > 9:59-60 To another he said, Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me
            > > > > first go and bury my father." But he said to him, leave the dead to
            > > > > bury
            > > > > their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
            > > > >
            > > > > 10:3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of
            > > > > wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; salute no one on the
            > > > > road.
            > > > > Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if
            > > > > a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not,
            > > > > it
            > > > > shall return to you.
            > > > >
            > > > > 10:10-11 Whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go
            > > > > into
            > > > > its streets and say: 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our
            > > > > feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the
            > > > > kingdom
            > > > > of God has come near.'
            > > > >
            > > > > 10:12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom
            > > > > than
            > > > > for that town.
            > > > >
            > > > > 10:13-15 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the
            > > > > mighty
            > > > > works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have
            > > > > repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
            > > > > more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And
            > > > > you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought
            > > > > down
            > > > > to Hades.
            > > > >
            > > > > 10:16 He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me,
            > > > > and
            > > > > he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
            > > > >
            > > > > 10:21-22 He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank thee,
            > > > > Father,
            > > > > Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the
            > > > > wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for
            > > > > such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by
            > > > > my
            > > > > Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the
            > > > > Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to
            > > > > reveal
            > > > > him.'
            > > > >
            > > > > 10:23-24 Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! For I tell you
            > > > > that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not
            > > > > see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will
            > > > > instead
            > > > > of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give
            > > > > him
            > > > > a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
            > > > > to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the
            > > > > Holy
            > > > > Spirit to those who ask him!
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:14-15 He was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had
            > > > > gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. But some of
            > > > > them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons"
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:17-18 "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and
            > > > > house
            > > > > falls upon house. If Satan also is divided against himself, how can
            > > > > his
            > > > > kingdom stand?
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:19 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub. If I cast out
            > > > > demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore
            > > > > they shall be your judges.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:20 If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the
            > > > > kingdom of God has come upon you.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:23 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
            > > > > with me scatters.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:24-26 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes
            > > > > through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, I
            > > > > will return to my house from which I came.' When he comes he finds it
            > > > > swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven spirits more
            > > > > evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last
            > > > > state of
            > > > > that man becomes worse than the first.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:29 This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no
            > > > > sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:30 As Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son
            > > > > of
            > > > > man be to this generation.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:31-32 The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the
            > > > > men
            > > > > of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
            > > > > the
            > > > > earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater
            > > > > than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment
            > > > > with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the
            > > > > preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every
            > > > > herb,
            > > > > and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have
            > > > > done,
            > > > > without neglecting the others.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the
            > > > > synagogues
            > > > > and salutations in the Market places.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men
            > > > > walk over them without knowing it."
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:46 Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to
            > > > > bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your
            > > > > fingers.
            > > > >
            > > > > 11:47-48 Woe to you for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your
            > > > > fathers killed. So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your
            > > > > fathers; they killed them, and you build their tombs. 11:49-51 The
            > > > > Wisdom of God said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of
            > > > > whom they will kill and persecute,' that the blood of all the
            > > > > prophets, shed from the foundation of the world may be required of
            > > > > this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
            > > > > who
            > > > > perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it
            > > > > shall
            > > > > be required of this generation.
            > > > >
            > > > > 12:4-5 I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
            > > > > and
            > > > > after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to
            > > > > fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;
            > > > > yes, I tell you fear him!
            > > > >
            > > > > 12:8-9 I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son
            > > > > of
            > > > > man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies
            > > > > me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
            > > > >
            > > > > 12:11-12 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and
            > > > > the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or
            > > > > what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very
            > > > > hour what you ought to say.
            > > > >
            > > > > 12:33-34 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide your selves
            > > > > with
            > > > > purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does
            > > > > not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where
            > > > > your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
            > > > >
            > > > > 12:39-40 If the householder had known at what hour the thief was
            > > > > coming,
            > > > > he would have been awake and would not have let his house to be
            > > > > broken
            > > > > into, you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour
            > > > > you do not expect.
            > > > >
            > > > > 12:42-46 The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward,
            > > > > whom
            > > > > his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of
            > > > > food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his
            > > > > master when he comes will find so doing. Truly I tell you, he will
            > > > > set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to
            > > > > himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat
            > > > > the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get
            > > > > drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not
            > > > > expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and
            > > > > put him with the unfaithful.
            > > > >
            > > > > 12:57-59 Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go
            > > > > with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle
            > > > > with
            > > > > him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you
            > > > > over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you,
            > > > > you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.
            > > > >
            > > > > 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will
            > > > > seek to enter and will not be able.
            > > > >
            > > > > 13:25-27 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,
            > > > > you
            > > > > will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying,
            > > > > 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you
            > > > > come from,' Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in
            > > > > your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I
            > > > > tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all
            > > > > you workers of iniquity!'
            > > > >
            > > > > 13:28-29 You will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and
            > > > > Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and
            > > > > you yourselves thrust out. Men will come from east and west, and
            > > > > from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of
            > > > > God.
            > > > >
            > > > > 13:34-35 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often would I have gathered your
            > > > > children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you
            > > > > would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. I tell you, you will not
            > > > > see me until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
            > > > > Lord!"
            > > > >
            > > > > 14:34-35 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its
            > > > > saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the
            > > > > dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
            > > > >
            > > > > 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good
            > > > > news
            > > > > of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
            > > > >
            > > > > 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
            > > > > dot
            > > > > of the law to become void.
            > > > >
            > > > > 16:18 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits
            > > > > adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband
            > > > > commits
            > > > > adultery.
            > > > >
            > > > > 17:1-2 Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom
            > > > > they
            > > > > come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his
            > > > > neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of
            > > > > these little ones to sin.
            > > > >
            > > > > 17:3-4 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive
            > > > > him;
            > > > > and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
            > > > > seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.
            > > > >
            > > > > 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" The Lord
            > > > > said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to
            > > > > this mulberry tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it
            > > > > would obey you."
            > > > >
            > > > > 17:24 As the lightning lights up the sky from one side to the other,
            > > > > so
            > > > > will Son of man be in his day.
            > > > >
            > > > > 17:26-27 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of
            > > > > the
            > > > > Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in
            > > > > marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came
            > > > > and destroyed then all.
            > > > >
            > > > > 17:28-30 As it was in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they
            > > > > bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot
            > > > > went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and
            > > > > destroyed them all. So will it be on the day when the Son of man is
            > > > > revealed.
            > > > >
            > > > > 17:37 They said to him, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the
            > > > > corpse is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
            > > > >
            > > > > 19:12-24 He said to them, "A nobleman went into a far country to
            > > > > receive
            > > > > kingly power and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave
            > > > > them
            > > > > ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' But his
            > > > > citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not
            > > > > want this man to reign over us.' When he returned, having received
            > > > > the
            > > > > kingly power, he commanded these servants to whom he had given the
            > > > > money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained
            > > > > by
            > > > > trading. The first came before him saying 'Lord, your pound has made
            > > > > ten pounds more.' And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant!
            > > > > Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have
            > > > > authority over ten cities.' The second came, saying, 'Lord, your
            > > > > pound
            > > > > has made five pounds,' He said to him; 'And you are to be over five
            > > > > cities.' Then another came, saying, 'Lord here is your pound, which I
            > > > > kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are
            > > > > a
            > > > > severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you
            > > > > did not sow.' He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own
            > > > > mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking
            > > > > up
            > > > > what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did
            > > > > you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have
            > > > > collected it with interest?' He said to those who stood by, 'Take the
            > > > > pound from him, and give it to him who has ten pounds.' They said to
            > > > > him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!'
            > > > >
            > > > > 22:28-30 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my
            > > > > Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you
            > > > > may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
            > > > > judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Mark
            Hi Rick, I agree that there is much in the early writings of the Church, including the gospels as found in the NT, that are superstitious and that fly counter
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 30 2:19 PM
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              Hi Rick,

              I agree that there is much in the early writings of the Church, including the gospels as found in the NT, that are superstitious and that fly counter to the dictates of science today. I am not sure in my reading of your reading of this literature how you are using science. It seems that you are using a modern understanding of science as a lens to look at early first century writings, which you then judge as superstitious and/or miraculous. The point I am raising is that the first century had a different understanding of the divide between science/reason and miracles/superstition. What may have been for them understood as science and reason mat be seen by us as superstitious. For example, dream incubation in a temple, or looking at the liver of a sheep for oracular insights.

              The second area where I may not be reading you right is that it seems you are determining which literature in Q that is paralleled in Thomas is authentic based on today's scientific understandings. In other words, your selection criteria is today's science. Or, are you saying that the material we find both in Q and Thomas, when compared to scientific understandings of today, has zero material that would be considered miraculous/superstitous? If this is what you are saying, then that is important, because it would suggest that the historical Jesus was an ordinary man in his day, but it did not take long for others (post-Q and post-Thomas) to begin attributing to him some miraculous qualities. Is that what you are saying? If so, that is pretty cool.

              Mark

              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Mark,
              >
              > Science defined by any age. I know of no changes in science on the non-superstitious things in Thomas. Miracles, angels, devils, walking zombies, virgin birth, etc. have never been science.
              >
              > Can you point out something that has changed in science that would apply?
              >
              > Rick
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Kurt,
              > >
              > > But science as defined by which age? And there has been a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
              > >
              > > Mark
              > >
              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Mark,
              > > >
              > > > Superstition from the viewpoint of science. If that can't be defined, nothing can be defined. Not a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
              > > >
              > > > And, according to Elain Pagel's theory, GJohn was edited/created to refute the "doubting Thomas" of the Gospel of Thomas. So, even at the time of Jesus, the Gospel of Thomas was considered noticably free of superstition.
              > > >
              > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Kurt31416,
              > > > >
              > > > > Superstition in one age is sound religion in another.
              > > > >
              > > > > Mark
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Little in biblical scholarship is as revealing of truth, as what is
              > > > > > left of Q after you remove the Thomas and Didache parallels. (Said
              > > > > > Thomas/Q and Didache/Q parallels available upon request.) Safe to say
              > > > > > there are zero, ZERO sayings in Q, paralleled in Thomas, that have
              > > > > > explicit superstition from the viewpoint of modern science..A typical
              > > > > > parallel saying would be how if the blind leads the blind, both
              > > > > > would fall into a ditch, or you see the speck in your brother's eye,
              > > > > > but don't see the beam in your own. Clever, corn-pone Aesop kind of
              > > > > > sayings generally.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > But what's left after you subtract out Thomas (and the little
              > > > > > cluster of
              > > > > > Didache sayings) is very very different. No clever corn-pone Aesop
              > > > > > kind of sayings.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > People love to claim that much of Thomas was added later. If so,
              > > > > > where
              > > > > > is the explicit superstition? It's the first thing Christians or
              > > > > > Gnostics would add. Supernatural beings (demons, angels, satans,
              > > > > > etc.), magical miracles (walking on water, raising the dead, etc.),
              > > > > > and of course, claiming to be some kind of god. Some people don't
              > > > > > seem
              > > > > > to know what explicit superstition means. Easy to find an example,
              > > > > > it's about half of what was added to Thomas, to make Q. A good part
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > the other half is shameless bragging of how special he is.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Not like we don't have a good example of how superstition would have
              > > > > > been added to Thomas, we have an example, it's
              > > > > > known to Biblical scholars as Q.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > *****Q - Thomas (and Didache) parallels*****
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 3:7-9 [John the Baptist] said to the multitudes that came out to be
              > > > > > baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to
              > > > > > say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you,
              > > > > > God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
              > > > > > now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore
              > > > > > that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 3:16-17 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who
              > > > > > is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not
              > > > > > worthy
              > > > > > to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
              > > > > > winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to
              > > > > > gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with
              > > > > > unquenchable fire."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 4:1-13 Jesus, full of the Holy spirit, returned from the Jordan and
              > > > > > was
              > > > > > led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the
              > > > > > devil. He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was
              > > > > > hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command
              > > > > > this stone to become bread." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man
              > > > > > shall not live by bread alone." The devil took him up, and showed him
              > > > > > all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him,
              > > > > > "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has
              > > > > > been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will, if you, then,
              > > > > > will
              > > > > > worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, 'It is
              > > > > > written, 'you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you
              > > > > > serve.'" He took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the
              > > > > > temple and said to him 'If you are the Son of God throw yourself down
              > > > > > from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,
              > > > > > to guard you, and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you
              > > > > > strike your foot against a stone.' " Jesus answered him, "It is said,
              > > > > > 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "And when the devil had
              > > > > > ended
              > > > > > every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is
              > > > > > fully
              > > > > > taught will be like his teacher.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 6:46 Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 6:47-49 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I
              > > > > > will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who
              > > > > > dug deep, and built the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose,
              > > > > > the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because
              > > > > > it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like
              > > > > > a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, against
              > > > > > which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that
              > > > > > house was great.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 7:1-10 A centurion had a slave who was dear to him who was sick and
              > > > > > at
              > > > > > the point of death. When he heard of Jesus he sent to him elders of
              > > > > > the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to
              > > > > > Jesus they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you
              > > > > > do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our
              > > > > > synagogue." Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house,
              > > > > > the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord do not trouble
              > > > > > yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;
              > > > > > therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and
              > > > > > let my
              > > > > > servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers
              > > > > > under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to
              > > > > > another, 'come,'
              > > > > > and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it," when Jesus
              > > > > > heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude
              > > > > > that followed him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such
              > > > > > faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they
              > > > > > found
              > > > > > the slave well.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 7:18-23 The disciples of John told him all these things. John
              > > > > > calling to
              > > > > > him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, 'Are you he
              > > > > > who is to come, or shall we look or another?" When the men had come
              > > > > > to
              > > > > > him, they said, John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, Are you
              > > > > > he who is to come or shall we look for another?' In that hour he
              > > > > > cured
              > > > > > many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were
              > > > > > blind he bestowed sight. He answered them, "Go and tell John what you
              > > > > > have seen and heard; the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
              > > > > > lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the
              > > > > > poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is he who takes no
              > > > > > offense at me."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
              > > > > > before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 7:31-34 To what shall I compare the men of this generation, and what
              > > > > > are
              > > > > > they like? They are like children sitting in the market place and
              > > > > > calling to one another, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we
              > > > > > wailed, and you did not weep. John the Baptist has come eating no
              > > > > > bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' The Son of
              > > > > > man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and
              > > > > > a
              > > > > > drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 7:35 Wisdom is justified by all her children."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 9:59-60 To another he said, Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me
              > > > > > first go and bury my father." But he said to him, leave the dead to
              > > > > > bury
              > > > > > their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 10:3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of
              > > > > > wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; salute no one on the
              > > > > > road.
              > > > > > Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if
              > > > > > a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not,
              > > > > > it
              > > > > > shall return to you.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 10:10-11 Whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go
              > > > > > into
              > > > > > its streets and say: 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our
              > > > > > feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the
              > > > > > kingdom
              > > > > > of God has come near.'
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 10:12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom
              > > > > > than
              > > > > > for that town.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 10:13-15 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the
              > > > > > mighty
              > > > > > works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have
              > > > > > repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
              > > > > > more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And
              > > > > > you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought
              > > > > > down
              > > > > > to Hades.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 10:16 He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me,
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 10:21-22 He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank thee,
              > > > > > Father,
              > > > > > Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the
              > > > > > wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for
              > > > > > such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by
              > > > > > my
              > > > > > Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the
              > > > > > Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to
              > > > > > reveal
              > > > > > him.'
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 10:23-24 Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! For I tell you
              > > > > > that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not
              > > > > > see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will
              > > > > > instead
              > > > > > of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give
              > > > > > him
              > > > > > a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
              > > > > > to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the
              > > > > > Holy
              > > > > > Spirit to those who ask him!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:14-15 He was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had
              > > > > > gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. But some of
              > > > > > them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons"
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:17-18 "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and
              > > > > > house
              > > > > > falls upon house. If Satan also is divided against himself, how can
              > > > > > his
              > > > > > kingdom stand?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:19 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub. If I cast out
              > > > > > demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore
              > > > > > they shall be your judges.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:20 If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the
              > > > > > kingdom of God has come upon you.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:23 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
              > > > > > with me scatters.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:24-26 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes
              > > > > > through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, I
              > > > > > will return to my house from which I came.' When he comes he finds it
              > > > > > swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven spirits more
              > > > > > evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last
              > > > > > state of
              > > > > > that man becomes worse than the first.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:29 This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no
              > > > > > sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:30 As Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > man be to this generation.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:31-32 The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the
              > > > > > men
              > > > > > of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater
              > > > > > than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment
              > > > > > with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the
              > > > > > preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every
              > > > > > herb,
              > > > > > and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have
              > > > > > done,
              > > > > > without neglecting the others.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the
              > > > > > synagogues
              > > > > > and salutations in the Market places.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men
              > > > > > walk over them without knowing it."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:46 Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to
              > > > > > bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your
              > > > > > fingers.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 11:47-48 Woe to you for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your
              > > > > > fathers killed. So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your
              > > > > > fathers; they killed them, and you build their tombs. 11:49-51 The
              > > > > > Wisdom of God said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of
              > > > > > whom they will kill and persecute,' that the blood of all the
              > > > > > prophets, shed from the foundation of the world may be required of
              > > > > > this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
              > > > > > who
              > > > > > perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it
              > > > > > shall
              > > > > > be required of this generation.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 12:4-5 I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to
              > > > > > fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;
              > > > > > yes, I tell you fear him!
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 12:8-9 I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies
              > > > > > me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 12:11-12 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and
              > > > > > the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or
              > > > > > what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very
              > > > > > hour what you ought to say.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 12:33-34 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide your selves
              > > > > > with
              > > > > > purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does
              > > > > > not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where
              > > > > > your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 12:39-40 If the householder had known at what hour the thief was
              > > > > > coming,
              > > > > > he would have been awake and would not have let his house to be
              > > > > > broken
              > > > > > into, you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour
              > > > > > you do not expect.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 12:42-46 The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward,
              > > > > > whom
              > > > > > his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of
              > > > > > food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his
              > > > > > master when he comes will find so doing. Truly I tell you, he will
              > > > > > set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to
              > > > > > himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat
              > > > > > the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get
              > > > > > drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not
              > > > > > expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and
              > > > > > put him with the unfaithful.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 12:57-59 Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go
              > > > > > with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle
              > > > > > with
              > > > > > him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you
              > > > > > over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you,
              > > > > > you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will
              > > > > > seek to enter and will not be able.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 13:25-27 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,
              > > > > > you
              > > > > > will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying,
              > > > > > 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you
              > > > > > come from,' Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in
              > > > > > your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I
              > > > > > tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all
              > > > > > you workers of iniquity!'
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 13:28-29 You will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and
              > > > > > Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and
              > > > > > you yourselves thrust out. Men will come from east and west, and
              > > > > > from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of
              > > > > > God.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 13:34-35 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often would I have gathered your
              > > > > > children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you
              > > > > > would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. I tell you, you will not
              > > > > > see me until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
              > > > > > Lord!"
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 14:34-35 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its
              > > > > > saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the
              > > > > > dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good
              > > > > > news
              > > > > > of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
              > > > > > dot
              > > > > > of the law to become void.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 16:18 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits
              > > > > > adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband
              > > > > > commits
              > > > > > adultery.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 17:1-2 Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom
              > > > > > they
              > > > > > come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his
              > > > > > neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of
              > > > > > these little ones to sin.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 17:3-4 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive
              > > > > > him;
              > > > > > and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
              > > > > > seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" The Lord
              > > > > > said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to
              > > > > > this mulberry tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it
              > > > > > would obey you."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 17:24 As the lightning lights up the sky from one side to the other,
              > > > > > so
              > > > > > will Son of man be in his day.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 17:26-27 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in
              > > > > > marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came
              > > > > > and destroyed then all.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 17:28-30 As it was in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they
              > > > > > bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot
              > > > > > went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and
              > > > > > destroyed them all. So will it be on the day when the Son of man is
              > > > > > revealed.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 17:37 They said to him, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the
              > > > > > corpse is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 19:12-24 He said to them, "A nobleman went into a far country to
              > > > > > receive
              > > > > > kingly power and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave
              > > > > > them
              > > > > > ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' But his
              > > > > > citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not
              > > > > > want this man to reign over us.' When he returned, having received
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > kingly power, he commanded these servants to whom he had given the
              > > > > > money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained
              > > > > > by
              > > > > > trading. The first came before him saying 'Lord, your pound has made
              > > > > > ten pounds more.' And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant!
              > > > > > Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have
              > > > > > authority over ten cities.' The second came, saying, 'Lord, your
              > > > > > pound
              > > > > > has made five pounds,' He said to him; 'And you are to be over five
              > > > > > cities.' Then another came, saying, 'Lord here is your pound, which I
              > > > > > kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are
              > > > > > a
              > > > > > severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you
              > > > > > did not sow.' He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own
              > > > > > mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking
              > > > > > up
              > > > > > what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did
              > > > > > you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have
              > > > > > collected it with interest?' He said to those who stood by, 'Take the
              > > > > > pound from him, and give it to him who has ten pounds.' They said to
              > > > > > him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!'
              > > > > >
              > > > > > 22:28-30 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my
              > > > > > Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you
              > > > > > may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
              > > > > > judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • kurt31416
              Hi Mark, Here s what I identify as superstition in the Christian Gospels, and not in Thomas. Seems that s been pretty stable for at least a few centuries... No
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 30 9:25 PM
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                Hi Mark,

                Here's what I identify as superstition in the Christian Gospels, and not in Thomas. Seems that's been pretty stable for at least a few centuries...
                No angel-gods
                No devil/satan-gods
                No demons
                No Sons of God (any more than we are all the sons of God)
                God never says or does anything or has opinions or any human characteristics whatsoever.
                It's no big deal to cuss God
                No zombies risen from the dead talking to people
                No Resurection
                No Judgement Day
                No Virgin Birth
                Jesus explicitly saying he heals people with the Placebo Effect (the only one paralleled in all 4 Christian Gospels and the Greek Thomas)
                God doesn't answer prayers
                No walking on water, No foodstuffs appearing out of nowhere, No blind seeing, etc. etc.

                Everything I can identify as EXPLICIT superstition, has been superstition for centuries.

                What I think science is, is the ability to predict experiments, not a tiny bit more and not a tiny bit less. Not Ultimate Truth. But it's a whiz-bang at the experiment predicting thing.

                There were scientists thousands of years ago, but they were rare and we know little of them and their beliefs beyond making some gizmo.

                And to the second point, the big message isn't the Q/Thomas parallels, it's what's left of Q, after you subtract out Thomas (and the Didache). Over half is explicit superstition.


                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Rick,
                >
                > I agree that there is much in the early writings of the Church, including the gospels as found in the NT, that are superstitious and that fly counter to the dictates of science today. I am not sure in my reading of your reading of this literature how you are using science. It seems that you are using a modern understanding of science as a lens to look at early first century writings, which you then judge as superstitious and/or miraculous. The point I am raising is that the first century had a different understanding of the divide between science/reason and miracles/superstition. What may have been for them understood as science and reason mat be seen by us as superstitious. For example, dream incubation in a temple, or looking at the liver of a sheep for oracular insights.
                >
                > The second area where I may not be reading you right is that it seems you are determining which literature in Q that is paralleled in Thomas is authentic based on today's scientific understandings. In other words, your selection criteria is today's science. Or, are you saying that the material we find both in Q and Thomas, when compared to scientific understandings of today, has zero material that would be considered miraculous/superstitous? If this is what you are saying, then that is important, because it would suggest that the historical Jesus was an ordinary man in his day, but it did not take long for others (post-Q and post-Thomas) to begin attributing to him some miraculous qualities. Is that what you are saying? If so, that is pretty cool.
                >
                > Mark
                >
                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Mark,
                > >
                > > Science defined by any age. I know of no changes in science on the non-superstitious things in Thomas. Miracles, angels, devils, walking zombies, virgin birth, etc. have never been science.
                > >
                > > Can you point out something that has changed in science that would apply?
                > >
                > > Rick
                > >
                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Kurt,
                > > >
                > > > But science as defined by which age? And there has been a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
                > > >
                > > > Mark
                > > >
                > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Mark,
                > > > >
                > > > > Superstition from the viewpoint of science. If that can't be defined, nothing can be defined. Not a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
                > > > >
                > > > > And, according to Elain Pagel's theory, GJohn was edited/created to refute the "doubting Thomas" of the Gospel of Thomas. So, even at the time of Jesus, the Gospel of Thomas was considered noticably free of superstition.
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Kurt31416,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Superstition in one age is sound religion in another.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Mark
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Little in biblical scholarship is as revealing of truth, as what is
                > > > > > > left of Q after you remove the Thomas and Didache parallels. (Said
                > > > > > > Thomas/Q and Didache/Q parallels available upon request.) Safe to say
                > > > > > > there are zero, ZERO sayings in Q, paralleled in Thomas, that have
                > > > > > > explicit superstition from the viewpoint of modern science..A typical
                > > > > > > parallel saying would be how if the blind leads the blind, both
                > > > > > > would fall into a ditch, or you see the speck in your brother's eye,
                > > > > > > but don't see the beam in your own. Clever, corn-pone Aesop kind of
                > > > > > > sayings generally.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > But what's left after you subtract out Thomas (and the little
                > > > > > > cluster of
                > > > > > > Didache sayings) is very very different. No clever corn-pone Aesop
                > > > > > > kind of sayings.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > People love to claim that much of Thomas was added later. If so,
                > > > > > > where
                > > > > > > is the explicit superstition? It's the first thing Christians or
                > > > > > > Gnostics would add. Supernatural beings (demons, angels, satans,
                > > > > > > etc.), magical miracles (walking on water, raising the dead, etc.),
                > > > > > > and of course, claiming to be some kind of god. Some people don't
                > > > > > > seem
                > > > > > > to know what explicit superstition means. Easy to find an example,
                > > > > > > it's about half of what was added to Thomas, to make Q. A good part
                > > > > > > of
                > > > > > > the other half is shameless bragging of how special he is.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Not like we don't have a good example of how superstition would have
                > > > > > > been added to Thomas, we have an example, it's
                > > > > > > known to Biblical scholars as Q.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > *****Q - Thomas (and Didache) parallels*****
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 3:7-9 [John the Baptist] said to the multitudes that came out to be
                > > > > > > baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
                > > > > > > the
                > > > > > > wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to
                > > > > > > say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you,
                > > > > > > God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
                > > > > > > now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore
                > > > > > > that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 3:16-17 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who
                > > > > > > is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not
                > > > > > > worthy
                > > > > > > to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
                > > > > > > winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to
                > > > > > > gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with
                > > > > > > unquenchable fire."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 4:1-13 Jesus, full of the Holy spirit, returned from the Jordan and
                > > > > > > was
                > > > > > > led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the
                > > > > > > devil. He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was
                > > > > > > hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command
                > > > > > > this stone to become bread." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man
                > > > > > > shall not live by bread alone." The devil took him up, and showed him
                > > > > > > all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him,
                > > > > > > "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has
                > > > > > > been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will, if you, then,
                > > > > > > will
                > > > > > > worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, 'It is
                > > > > > > written, 'you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you
                > > > > > > serve.'" He took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the
                > > > > > > temple and said to him 'If you are the Son of God throw yourself down
                > > > > > > from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,
                > > > > > > to guard you, and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you
                > > > > > > strike your foot against a stone.' " Jesus answered him, "It is said,
                > > > > > > 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "And when the devil had
                > > > > > > ended
                > > > > > > every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is
                > > > > > > fully
                > > > > > > taught will be like his teacher.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 6:46 Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 6:47-49 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I
                > > > > > > will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who
                > > > > > > dug deep, and built the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose,
                > > > > > > the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because
                > > > > > > it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like
                > > > > > > a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, against
                > > > > > > which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that
                > > > > > > house was great.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 7:1-10 A centurion had a slave who was dear to him who was sick and
                > > > > > > at
                > > > > > > the point of death. When he heard of Jesus he sent to him elders of
                > > > > > > the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to
                > > > > > > Jesus they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you
                > > > > > > do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our
                > > > > > > synagogue." Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house,
                > > > > > > the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord do not trouble
                > > > > > > yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;
                > > > > > > therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and
                > > > > > > let my
                > > > > > > servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers
                > > > > > > under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to
                > > > > > > another, 'come,'
                > > > > > > and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it," when Jesus
                > > > > > > heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude
                > > > > > > that followed him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such
                > > > > > > faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they
                > > > > > > found
                > > > > > > the slave well.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 7:18-23 The disciples of John told him all these things. John
                > > > > > > calling to
                > > > > > > him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, 'Are you he
                > > > > > > who is to come, or shall we look or another?" When the men had come
                > > > > > > to
                > > > > > > him, they said, John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, Are you
                > > > > > > he who is to come or shall we look for another?' In that hour he
                > > > > > > cured
                > > > > > > many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were
                > > > > > > blind he bestowed sight. He answered them, "Go and tell John what you
                > > > > > > have seen and heard; the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
                > > > > > > lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the
                > > > > > > poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is he who takes no
                > > > > > > offense at me."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
                > > > > > > before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 7:31-34 To what shall I compare the men of this generation, and what
                > > > > > > are
                > > > > > > they like? They are like children sitting in the market place and
                > > > > > > calling to one another, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we
                > > > > > > wailed, and you did not weep. John the Baptist has come eating no
                > > > > > > bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' The Son of
                > > > > > > man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and
                > > > > > > a
                > > > > > > drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 7:35 Wisdom is justified by all her children."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 9:59-60 To another he said, Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me
                > > > > > > first go and bury my father." But he said to him, leave the dead to
                > > > > > > bury
                > > > > > > their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 10:3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of
                > > > > > > wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; salute no one on the
                > > > > > > road.
                > > > > > > Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if
                > > > > > > a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not,
                > > > > > > it
                > > > > > > shall return to you.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 10:10-11 Whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go
                > > > > > > into
                > > > > > > its streets and say: 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our
                > > > > > > feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the
                > > > > > > kingdom
                > > > > > > of God has come near.'
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 10:12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom
                > > > > > > than
                > > > > > > for that town.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 10:13-15 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the
                > > > > > > mighty
                > > > > > > works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have
                > > > > > > repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
                > > > > > > more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And
                > > > > > > you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought
                > > > > > > down
                > > > > > > to Hades.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 10:16 He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me,
                > > > > > > and
                > > > > > > he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 10:21-22 He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank thee,
                > > > > > > Father,
                > > > > > > Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the
                > > > > > > wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for
                > > > > > > such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by
                > > > > > > my
                > > > > > > Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the
                > > > > > > Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to
                > > > > > > reveal
                > > > > > > him.'
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 10:23-24 Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! For I tell you
                > > > > > > that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not
                > > > > > > see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will
                > > > > > > instead
                > > > > > > of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give
                > > > > > > him
                > > > > > > a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
                > > > > > > to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the
                > > > > > > Holy
                > > > > > > Spirit to those who ask him!
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:14-15 He was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had
                > > > > > > gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. But some of
                > > > > > > them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons"
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:17-18 "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and
                > > > > > > house
                > > > > > > falls upon house. If Satan also is divided against himself, how can
                > > > > > > his
                > > > > > > kingdom stand?
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:19 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub. If I cast out
                > > > > > > demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore
                > > > > > > they shall be your judges.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:20 If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the
                > > > > > > kingdom of God has come upon you.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:23 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
                > > > > > > with me scatters.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:24-26 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes
                > > > > > > through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, I
                > > > > > > will return to my house from which I came.' When he comes he finds it
                > > > > > > swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven spirits more
                > > > > > > evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last
                > > > > > > state of
                > > > > > > that man becomes worse than the first.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:29 This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no
                > > > > > > sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:30 As Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son
                > > > > > > of
                > > > > > > man be to this generation.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:31-32 The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the
                > > > > > > men
                > > > > > > of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
                > > > > > > the
                > > > > > > earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater
                > > > > > > than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment
                > > > > > > with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the
                > > > > > > preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every
                > > > > > > herb,
                > > > > > > and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have
                > > > > > > done,
                > > > > > > without neglecting the others.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the
                > > > > > > synagogues
                > > > > > > and salutations in the Market places.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men
                > > > > > > walk over them without knowing it."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:46 Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to
                > > > > > > bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your
                > > > > > > fingers.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 11:47-48 Woe to you for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your
                > > > > > > fathers killed. So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your
                > > > > > > fathers; they killed them, and you build their tombs. 11:49-51 The
                > > > > > > Wisdom of God said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of
                > > > > > > whom they will kill and persecute,' that the blood of all the
                > > > > > > prophets, shed from the foundation of the world may be required of
                > > > > > > this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
                > > > > > > who
                > > > > > > perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it
                > > > > > > shall
                > > > > > > be required of this generation.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 12:4-5 I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
                > > > > > > and
                > > > > > > after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to
                > > > > > > fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;
                > > > > > > yes, I tell you fear him!
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 12:8-9 I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son
                > > > > > > of
                > > > > > > man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies
                > > > > > > me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 12:11-12 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and
                > > > > > > the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or
                > > > > > > what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very
                > > > > > > hour what you ought to say.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 12:33-34 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide your selves
                > > > > > > with
                > > > > > > purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does
                > > > > > > not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where
                > > > > > > your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 12:39-40 If the householder had known at what hour the thief was
                > > > > > > coming,
                > > > > > > he would have been awake and would not have let his house to be
                > > > > > > broken
                > > > > > > into, you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour
                > > > > > > you do not expect.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 12:42-46 The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward,
                > > > > > > whom
                > > > > > > his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of
                > > > > > > food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his
                > > > > > > master when he comes will find so doing. Truly I tell you, he will
                > > > > > > set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to
                > > > > > > himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat
                > > > > > > the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get
                > > > > > > drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not
                > > > > > > expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and
                > > > > > > put him with the unfaithful.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 12:57-59 Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go
                > > > > > > with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle
                > > > > > > with
                > > > > > > him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you
                > > > > > > over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you,
                > > > > > > you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will
                > > > > > > seek to enter and will not be able.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 13:25-27 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,
                > > > > > > you
                > > > > > > will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying,
                > > > > > > 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you
                > > > > > > come from,' Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in
                > > > > > > your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I
                > > > > > > tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all
                > > > > > > you workers of iniquity!'
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 13:28-29 You will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and
                > > > > > > Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and
                > > > > > > you yourselves thrust out. Men will come from east and west, and
                > > > > > > from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of
                > > > > > > God.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 13:34-35 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often would I have gathered your
                > > > > > > children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you
                > > > > > > would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. I tell you, you will not
                > > > > > > see me until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
                > > > > > > Lord!"
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 14:34-35 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its
                > > > > > > saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the
                > > > > > > dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good
                > > > > > > news
                > > > > > > of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
                > > > > > > dot
                > > > > > > of the law to become void.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 16:18 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits
                > > > > > > adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband
                > > > > > > commits
                > > > > > > adultery.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 17:1-2 Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom
                > > > > > > they
                > > > > > > come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his
                > > > > > > neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of
                > > > > > > these little ones to sin.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 17:3-4 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive
                > > > > > > him;
                > > > > > > and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
                > > > > > > seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" The Lord
                > > > > > > said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to
                > > > > > > this mulberry tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it
                > > > > > > would obey you."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 17:24 As the lightning lights up the sky from one side to the other,
                > > > > > > so
                > > > > > > will Son of man be in his day.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 17:26-27 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of
                > > > > > > the
                > > > > > > Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in
                > > > > > > marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came
                > > > > > > and destroyed then all.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 17:28-30 As it was in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they
                > > > > > > bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot
                > > > > > > went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and
                > > > > > > destroyed them all. So will it be on the day when the Son of man is
                > > > > > > revealed.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 17:37 They said to him, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the
                > > > > > > corpse is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 19:12-24 He said to them, "A nobleman went into a far country to
                > > > > > > receive
                > > > > > > kingly power and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave
                > > > > > > them
                > > > > > > ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' But his
                > > > > > > citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not
                > > > > > > want this man to reign over us.' When he returned, having received
                > > > > > > the
                > > > > > > kingly power, he commanded these servants to whom he had given the
                > > > > > > money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained
                > > > > > > by
                > > > > > > trading. The first came before him saying 'Lord, your pound has made
                > > > > > > ten pounds more.' And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant!
                > > > > > > Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have
                > > > > > > authority over ten cities.' The second came, saying, 'Lord, your
                > > > > > > pound
                > > > > > > has made five pounds,' He said to him; 'And you are to be over five
                > > > > > > cities.' Then another came, saying, 'Lord here is your pound, which I
                > > > > > > kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are
                > > > > > > a
                > > > > > > severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you
                > > > > > > did not sow.' He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own
                > > > > > > mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking
                > > > > > > up
                > > > > > > what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did
                > > > > > > you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have
                > > > > > > collected it with interest?' He said to those who stood by, 'Take the
                > > > > > > pound from him, and give it to him who has ten pounds.' They said to
                > > > > > > him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!'
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > 22:28-30 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my
                > > > > > > Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you
                > > > > > > may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
                > > > > > > judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • kurt31416
                In summary, yes, I believe Jesus was a rather special man that didn t have a superstitious bone in his body, and the Gospel of Thomas was written when he was
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 30 9:54 PM
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                  In summary, yes, I believe Jesus was a rather special man that didn't have a superstitious bone in his body, and the Gospel of Thomas was written when he was alive, and got his seal of approval, just like it says. No Christian or Gnostic ever got their mitts on it, or the first thing they would add is "Christ" or the evil Hebrew God.

                  No commitee or redactors could or would have produced anything of the kind, it had to overwhelmingly come from one very special man, and th total lack of superstition, is the best evidence.

                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Mark,
                  >
                  > Here's what I identify as superstition in the Christian Gospels, and not in Thomas. Seems that's been pretty stable for at least a few centuries...
                  > No angel-gods
                  > No devil/satan-gods
                  > No demons
                  > No Sons of God (any more than we are all the sons of God)
                  > God never says or does anything or has opinions or any human characteristics whatsoever.
                  > It's no big deal to cuss God
                  > No zombies risen from the dead talking to people
                  > No Resurection
                  > No Judgement Day
                  > No Virgin Birth
                  > Jesus explicitly saying he heals people with the Placebo Effect (the only one paralleled in all 4 Christian Gospels and the Greek Thomas)
                  > God doesn't answer prayers
                  > No walking on water, No foodstuffs appearing out of nowhere, No blind seeing, etc. etc.
                  >
                  > Everything I can identify as EXPLICIT superstition, has been superstition for centuries.
                  >
                  > What I think science is, is the ability to predict experiments, not a tiny bit more and not a tiny bit less. Not Ultimate Truth. But it's a whiz-bang at the experiment predicting thing.
                  >
                  > There were scientists thousands of years ago, but they were rare and we know little of them and their beliefs beyond making some gizmo.
                  >
                  > And to the second point, the big message isn't the Q/Thomas parallels, it's what's left of Q, after you subtract out Thomas (and the Didache). Over half is explicit superstition.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Rick,
                  > >
                  > > I agree that there is much in the early writings of the Church, including the gospels as found in the NT, that are superstitious and that fly counter to the dictates of science today. I am not sure in my reading of your reading of this literature how you are using science. It seems that you are using a modern understanding of science as a lens to look at early first century writings, which you then judge as superstitious and/or miraculous. The point I am raising is that the first century had a different understanding of the divide between science/reason and miracles/superstition. What may have been for them understood as science and reason mat be seen by us as superstitious. For example, dream incubation in a temple, or looking at the liver of a sheep for oracular insights.
                  > >
                  > > The second area where I may not be reading you right is that it seems you are determining which literature in Q that is paralleled in Thomas is authentic based on today's scientific understandings. In other words, your selection criteria is today's science. Or, are you saying that the material we find both in Q and Thomas, when compared to scientific understandings of today, has zero material that would be considered miraculous/superstitous? If this is what you are saying, then that is important, because it would suggest that the historical Jesus was an ordinary man in his day, but it did not take long for others (post-Q and post-Thomas) to begin attributing to him some miraculous qualities. Is that what you are saying? If so, that is pretty cool.
                  > >
                  > > Mark
                  > >
                  > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Mark,
                  > > >
                  > > > Science defined by any age. I know of no changes in science on the non-superstitious things in Thomas. Miracles, angels, devils, walking zombies, virgin birth, etc. have never been science.
                  > > >
                  > > > Can you point out something that has changed in science that would apply?
                  > > >
                  > > > Rick
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Kurt,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > But science as defined by which age? And there has been a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mark
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi Mark,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Superstition from the viewpoint of science. If that can't be defined, nothing can be defined. Not a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > And, according to Elain Pagel's theory, GJohn was edited/created to refute the "doubting Thomas" of the Gospel of Thomas. So, even at the time of Jesus, the Gospel of Thomas was considered noticably free of superstition.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Kurt31416,
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Superstition in one age is sound religion in another.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Mark
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Little in biblical scholarship is as revealing of truth, as what is
                  > > > > > > > left of Q after you remove the Thomas and Didache parallels. (Said
                  > > > > > > > Thomas/Q and Didache/Q parallels available upon request.) Safe to say
                  > > > > > > > there are zero, ZERO sayings in Q, paralleled in Thomas, that have
                  > > > > > > > explicit superstition from the viewpoint of modern science..A typical
                  > > > > > > > parallel saying would be how if the blind leads the blind, both
                  > > > > > > > would fall into a ditch, or you see the speck in your brother's eye,
                  > > > > > > > but don't see the beam in your own. Clever, corn-pone Aesop kind of
                  > > > > > > > sayings generally.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > But what's left after you subtract out Thomas (and the little
                  > > > > > > > cluster of
                  > > > > > > > Didache sayings) is very very different. No clever corn-pone Aesop
                  > > > > > > > kind of sayings.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > People love to claim that much of Thomas was added later. If so,
                  > > > > > > > where
                  > > > > > > > is the explicit superstition? It's the first thing Christians or
                  > > > > > > > Gnostics would add. Supernatural beings (demons, angels, satans,
                  > > > > > > > etc.), magical miracles (walking on water, raising the dead, etc.),
                  > > > > > > > and of course, claiming to be some kind of god. Some people don't
                  > > > > > > > seem
                  > > > > > > > to know what explicit superstition means. Easy to find an example,
                  > > > > > > > it's about half of what was added to Thomas, to make Q. A good part
                  > > > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > > the other half is shameless bragging of how special he is.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Not like we don't have a good example of how superstition would have
                  > > > > > > > been added to Thomas, we have an example, it's
                  > > > > > > > known to Biblical scholars as Q.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > *****Q - Thomas (and Didache) parallels*****
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 3:7-9 [John the Baptist] said to the multitudes that came out to be
                  > > > > > > > baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
                  > > > > > > > the
                  > > > > > > > wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to
                  > > > > > > > say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you,
                  > > > > > > > God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
                  > > > > > > > now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore
                  > > > > > > > that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 3:16-17 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who
                  > > > > > > > is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not
                  > > > > > > > worthy
                  > > > > > > > to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
                  > > > > > > > winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to
                  > > > > > > > gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with
                  > > > > > > > unquenchable fire."
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 4:1-13 Jesus, full of the Holy spirit, returned from the Jordan and
                  > > > > > > > was
                  > > > > > > > led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the
                  > > > > > > > devil. He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was
                  > > > > > > > hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command
                  > > > > > > > this stone to become bread." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man
                  > > > > > > > shall not live by bread alone." The devil took him up, and showed him
                  > > > > > > > all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him,
                  > > > > > > > "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has
                  > > > > > > > been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will, if you, then,
                  > > > > > > > will
                  > > > > > > > worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, 'It is
                  > > > > > > > written, 'you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you
                  > > > > > > > serve.'" He took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the
                  > > > > > > > temple and said to him 'If you are the Son of God throw yourself down
                  > > > > > > > from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,
                  > > > > > > > to guard you, and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you
                  > > > > > > > strike your foot against a stone.' " Jesus answered him, "It is said,
                  > > > > > > > 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "And when the devil had
                  > > > > > > > ended
                  > > > > > > > every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is
                  > > > > > > > fully
                  > > > > > > > taught will be like his teacher.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 6:46 Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 6:47-49 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I
                  > > > > > > > will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who
                  > > > > > > > dug deep, and built the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose,
                  > > > > > > > the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because
                  > > > > > > > it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like
                  > > > > > > > a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, against
                  > > > > > > > which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that
                  > > > > > > > house was great.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 7:1-10 A centurion had a slave who was dear to him who was sick and
                  > > > > > > > at
                  > > > > > > > the point of death. When he heard of Jesus he sent to him elders of
                  > > > > > > > the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to
                  > > > > > > > Jesus they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you
                  > > > > > > > do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our
                  > > > > > > > synagogue." Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house,
                  > > > > > > > the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord do not trouble
                  > > > > > > > yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;
                  > > > > > > > therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and
                  > > > > > > > let my
                  > > > > > > > servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers
                  > > > > > > > under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to
                  > > > > > > > another, 'come,'
                  > > > > > > > and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it," when Jesus
                  > > > > > > > heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude
                  > > > > > > > that followed him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such
                  > > > > > > > faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they
                  > > > > > > > found
                  > > > > > > > the slave well.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 7:18-23 The disciples of John told him all these things. John
                  > > > > > > > calling to
                  > > > > > > > him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, 'Are you he
                  > > > > > > > who is to come, or shall we look or another?" When the men had come
                  > > > > > > > to
                  > > > > > > > him, they said, John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, Are you
                  > > > > > > > he who is to come or shall we look for another?' In that hour he
                  > > > > > > > cured
                  > > > > > > > many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were
                  > > > > > > > blind he bestowed sight. He answered them, "Go and tell John what you
                  > > > > > > > have seen and heard; the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
                  > > > > > > > lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the
                  > > > > > > > poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is he who takes no
                  > > > > > > > offense at me."
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
                  > > > > > > > before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 7:31-34 To what shall I compare the men of this generation, and what
                  > > > > > > > are
                  > > > > > > > they like? They are like children sitting in the market place and
                  > > > > > > > calling to one another, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we
                  > > > > > > > wailed, and you did not weep. John the Baptist has come eating no
                  > > > > > > > bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' The Son of
                  > > > > > > > man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and
                  > > > > > > > a
                  > > > > > > > drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 7:35 Wisdom is justified by all her children."
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 9:59-60 To another he said, Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me
                  > > > > > > > first go and bury my father." But he said to him, leave the dead to
                  > > > > > > > bury
                  > > > > > > > their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 10:3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of
                  > > > > > > > wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; salute no one on the
                  > > > > > > > road.
                  > > > > > > > Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if
                  > > > > > > > a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not,
                  > > > > > > > it
                  > > > > > > > shall return to you.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 10:10-11 Whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go
                  > > > > > > > into
                  > > > > > > > its streets and say: 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our
                  > > > > > > > feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the
                  > > > > > > > kingdom
                  > > > > > > > of God has come near.'
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 10:12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom
                  > > > > > > > than
                  > > > > > > > for that town.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 10:13-15 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the
                  > > > > > > > mighty
                  > > > > > > > works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have
                  > > > > > > > repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
                  > > > > > > > more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And
                  > > > > > > > you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought
                  > > > > > > > down
                  > > > > > > > to Hades.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 10:16 He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me,
                  > > > > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 10:21-22 He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank thee,
                  > > > > > > > Father,
                  > > > > > > > Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the
                  > > > > > > > wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for
                  > > > > > > > such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by
                  > > > > > > > my
                  > > > > > > > Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the
                  > > > > > > > Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to
                  > > > > > > > reveal
                  > > > > > > > him.'
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 10:23-24 Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! For I tell you
                  > > > > > > > that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not
                  > > > > > > > see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will
                  > > > > > > > instead
                  > > > > > > > of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give
                  > > > > > > > him
                  > > > > > > > a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
                  > > > > > > > to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the
                  > > > > > > > Holy
                  > > > > > > > Spirit to those who ask him!
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:14-15 He was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had
                  > > > > > > > gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. But some of
                  > > > > > > > them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons"
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:17-18 "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and
                  > > > > > > > house
                  > > > > > > > falls upon house. If Satan also is divided against himself, how can
                  > > > > > > > his
                  > > > > > > > kingdom stand?
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:19 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub. If I cast out
                  > > > > > > > demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore
                  > > > > > > > they shall be your judges.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:20 If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the
                  > > > > > > > kingdom of God has come upon you.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:23 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
                  > > > > > > > with me scatters.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:24-26 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes
                  > > > > > > > through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, I
                  > > > > > > > will return to my house from which I came.' When he comes he finds it
                  > > > > > > > swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven spirits more
                  > > > > > > > evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last
                  > > > > > > > state of
                  > > > > > > > that man becomes worse than the first.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:29 This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no
                  > > > > > > > sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:30 As Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son
                  > > > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > > man be to this generation.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:31-32 The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the
                  > > > > > > > men
                  > > > > > > > of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
                  > > > > > > > the
                  > > > > > > > earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater
                  > > > > > > > than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment
                  > > > > > > > with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the
                  > > > > > > > preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every
                  > > > > > > > herb,
                  > > > > > > > and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have
                  > > > > > > > done,
                  > > > > > > > without neglecting the others.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the
                  > > > > > > > synagogues
                  > > > > > > > and salutations in the Market places.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men
                  > > > > > > > walk over them without knowing it."
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:46 Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to
                  > > > > > > > bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your
                  > > > > > > > fingers.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 11:47-48 Woe to you for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your
                  > > > > > > > fathers killed. So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your
                  > > > > > > > fathers; they killed them, and you build their tombs. 11:49-51 The
                  > > > > > > > Wisdom of God said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of
                  > > > > > > > whom they will kill and persecute,' that the blood of all the
                  > > > > > > > prophets, shed from the foundation of the world may be required of
                  > > > > > > > this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
                  > > > > > > > who
                  > > > > > > > perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it
                  > > > > > > > shall
                  > > > > > > > be required of this generation.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 12:4-5 I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
                  > > > > > > > and
                  > > > > > > > after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to
                  > > > > > > > fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;
                  > > > > > > > yes, I tell you fear him!
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 12:8-9 I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son
                  > > > > > > > of
                  > > > > > > > man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies
                  > > > > > > > me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 12:11-12 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and
                  > > > > > > > the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or
                  > > > > > > > what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very
                  > > > > > > > hour what you ought to say.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 12:33-34 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide your selves
                  > > > > > > > with
                  > > > > > > > purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does
                  > > > > > > > not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where
                  > > > > > > > your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 12:39-40 If the householder had known at what hour the thief was
                  > > > > > > > coming,
                  > > > > > > > he would have been awake and would not have let his house to be
                  > > > > > > > broken
                  > > > > > > > into, you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour
                  > > > > > > > you do not expect.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 12:42-46 The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward,
                  > > > > > > > whom
                  > > > > > > > his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of
                  > > > > > > > food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his
                  > > > > > > > master when he comes will find so doing. Truly I tell you, he will
                  > > > > > > > set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to
                  > > > > > > > himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat
                  > > > > > > > the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get
                  > > > > > > > drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not
                  > > > > > > > expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and
                  > > > > > > > put him with the unfaithful.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 12:57-59 Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go
                  > > > > > > > with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle
                  > > > > > > > with
                  > > > > > > > him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you
                  > > > > > > > over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you,
                  > > > > > > > you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will
                  > > > > > > > seek to enter and will not be able.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 13:25-27 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,
                  > > > > > > > you
                  > > > > > > > will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying,
                  > > > > > > > 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you
                  > > > > > > > come from,' Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in
                  > > > > > > > your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I
                  > > > > > > > tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all
                  > > > > > > > you workers of iniquity!'
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 13:28-29 You will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and
                  > > > > > > > Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and
                  > > > > > > > you yourselves thrust out. Men will come from east and west, and
                  > > > > > > > from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of
                  > > > > > > > God.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 13:34-35 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often would I have gathered your
                  > > > > > > > children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you
                  > > > > > > > would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. I tell you, you will not
                  > > > > > > > see me until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
                  > > > > > > > Lord!"
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 14:34-35 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its
                  > > > > > > > saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the
                  > > > > > > > dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good
                  > > > > > > > news
                  > > > > > > > of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
                  > > > > > > > dot
                  > > > > > > > of the law to become void.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 16:18 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits
                  > > > > > > > adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband
                  > > > > > > > commits
                  > > > > > > > adultery.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 17:1-2 Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom
                  > > > > > > > they
                  > > > > > > > come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his
                  > > > > > > > neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of
                  > > > > > > > these little ones to sin.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 17:3-4 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive
                  > > > > > > > him;
                  > > > > > > > and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
                  > > > > > > > seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" The Lord
                  > > > > > > > said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to
                  > > > > > > > this mulberry tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it
                  > > > > > > > would obey you."
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 17:24 As the lightning lights up the sky from one side to the other,
                  > > > > > > > so
                  > > > > > > > will Son of man be in his day.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 17:26-27 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of
                  > > > > > > > the
                  > > > > > > > Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in
                  > > > > > > > marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came
                  > > > > > > > and destroyed then all.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 17:28-30 As it was in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they
                  > > > > > > > bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot
                  > > > > > > > went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and
                  > > > > > > > destroyed them all. So will it be on the day when the Son of man is
                  > > > > > > > revealed.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 17:37 They said to him, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the
                  > > > > > > > corpse is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 19:12-24 He said to them, "A nobleman went into a far country to
                  > > > > > > > receive
                  > > > > > > > kingly power and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave
                  > > > > > > > them
                  > > > > > > > ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' But his
                  > > > > > > > citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not
                  > > > > > > > want this man to reign over us.' When he returned, having received
                  > > > > > > > the
                  > > > > > > > kingly power, he commanded these servants to whom he had given the
                  > > > > > > > money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained
                  > > > > > > > by
                  > > > > > > > trading. The first came before him saying 'Lord, your pound has made
                  > > > > > > > ten pounds more.' And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant!
                  > > > > > > > Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have
                  > > > > > > > authority over ten cities.' The second came, saying, 'Lord, your
                  > > > > > > > pound
                  > > > > > > > has made five pounds,' He said to him; 'And you are to be over five
                  > > > > > > > cities.' Then another came, saying, 'Lord here is your pound, which I
                  > > > > > > > kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are
                  > > > > > > > a
                  > > > > > > > severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you
                  > > > > > > > did not sow.' He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own
                  > > > > > > > mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking
                  > > > > > > > up
                  > > > > > > > what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did
                  > > > > > > > you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have
                  > > > > > > > collected it with interest?' He said to those who stood by, 'Take the
                  > > > > > > > pound from him, and give it to him who has ten pounds.' They said to
                  > > > > > > > him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!'
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > 22:28-30 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my
                  > > > > > > > Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you
                  > > > > > > > may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
                  > > > > > > > judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Mark
                  Rick, Thanks for the responses. Mark
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 1, 2010
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                    Rick,

                    Thanks for the responses.

                    Mark

                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In summary, yes, I believe Jesus was a rather special man that didn't have a superstitious bone in his body, and the Gospel of Thomas was written when he was alive, and got his seal of approval, just like it says. No Christian or Gnostic ever got their mitts on it, or the first thing they would add is "Christ" or the evil Hebrew God.
                    >
                    > No commitee or redactors could or would have produced anything of the kind, it had to overwhelmingly come from one very special man, and th total lack of superstition, is the best evidence.
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Mark,
                    > >
                    > > Here's what I identify as superstition in the Christian Gospels, and not in Thomas. Seems that's been pretty stable for at least a few centuries...
                    > > No angel-gods
                    > > No devil/satan-gods
                    > > No demons
                    > > No Sons of God (any more than we are all the sons of God)
                    > > God never says or does anything or has opinions or any human characteristics whatsoever.
                    > > It's no big deal to cuss God
                    > > No zombies risen from the dead talking to people
                    > > No Resurection
                    > > No Judgement Day
                    > > No Virgin Birth
                    > > Jesus explicitly saying he heals people with the Placebo Effect (the only one paralleled in all 4 Christian Gospels and the Greek Thomas)
                    > > God doesn't answer prayers
                    > > No walking on water, No foodstuffs appearing out of nowhere, No blind seeing, etc. etc.
                    > >
                    > > Everything I can identify as EXPLICIT superstition, has been superstition for centuries.
                    > >
                    > > What I think science is, is the ability to predict experiments, not a tiny bit more and not a tiny bit less. Not Ultimate Truth. But it's a whiz-bang at the experiment predicting thing.
                    > >
                    > > There were scientists thousands of years ago, but they were rare and we know little of them and their beliefs beyond making some gizmo.
                    > >
                    > > And to the second point, the big message isn't the Q/Thomas parallels, it's what's left of Q, after you subtract out Thomas (and the Didache). Over half is explicit superstition.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Rick,
                    > > >
                    > > > I agree that there is much in the early writings of the Church, including the gospels as found in the NT, that are superstitious and that fly counter to the dictates of science today. I am not sure in my reading of your reading of this literature how you are using science. It seems that you are using a modern understanding of science as a lens to look at early first century writings, which you then judge as superstitious and/or miraculous. The point I am raising is that the first century had a different understanding of the divide between science/reason and miracles/superstition. What may have been for them understood as science and reason mat be seen by us as superstitious. For example, dream incubation in a temple, or looking at the liver of a sheep for oracular insights.
                    > > >
                    > > > The second area where I may not be reading you right is that it seems you are determining which literature in Q that is paralleled in Thomas is authentic based on today's scientific understandings. In other words, your selection criteria is today's science. Or, are you saying that the material we find both in Q and Thomas, when compared to scientific understandings of today, has zero material that would be considered miraculous/superstitous? If this is what you are saying, then that is important, because it would suggest that the historical Jesus was an ordinary man in his day, but it did not take long for others (post-Q and post-Thomas) to begin attributing to him some miraculous qualities. Is that what you are saying? If so, that is pretty cool.
                    > > >
                    > > > Mark
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi Mark,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Science defined by any age. I know of no changes in science on the non-superstitious things in Thomas. Miracles, angels, devils, walking zombies, virgin birth, etc. have never been science.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Can you point out something that has changed in science that would apply?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Rick
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hi Kurt,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > But science as defined by which age? And there has been a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Mark
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Hi Mark,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Superstition from the viewpoint of science. If that can't be defined, nothing can be defined. Not a lot of change in that in the last few centuries.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > And, according to Elain Pagel's theory, GJohn was edited/created to refute the "doubting Thomas" of the Gospel of Thomas. So, even at the time of Jesus, the Gospel of Thomas was considered noticably free of superstition.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <larockpitts@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Kurt31416,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Superstition in one age is sound religion in another.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Mark
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "kurt31416" <kurt31416@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Q-Thomas, A Fine Example of Explicit Superstition
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Little in biblical scholarship is as revealing of truth, as what is
                    > > > > > > > > left of Q after you remove the Thomas and Didache parallels. (Said
                    > > > > > > > > Thomas/Q and Didache/Q parallels available upon request.) Safe to say
                    > > > > > > > > there are zero, ZERO sayings in Q, paralleled in Thomas, that have
                    > > > > > > > > explicit superstition from the viewpoint of modern science..A typical
                    > > > > > > > > parallel saying would be how if the blind leads the blind, both
                    > > > > > > > > would fall into a ditch, or you see the speck in your brother's eye,
                    > > > > > > > > but don't see the beam in your own. Clever, corn-pone Aesop kind of
                    > > > > > > > > sayings generally.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > But what's left after you subtract out Thomas (and the little
                    > > > > > > > > cluster of
                    > > > > > > > > Didache sayings) is very very different. No clever corn-pone Aesop
                    > > > > > > > > kind of sayings.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > People love to claim that much of Thomas was added later. If so,
                    > > > > > > > > where
                    > > > > > > > > is the explicit superstition? It's the first thing Christians or
                    > > > > > > > > Gnostics would add. Supernatural beings (demons, angels, satans,
                    > > > > > > > > etc.), magical miracles (walking on water, raising the dead, etc.),
                    > > > > > > > > and of course, claiming to be some kind of god. Some people don't
                    > > > > > > > > seem
                    > > > > > > > > to know what explicit superstition means. Easy to find an example,
                    > > > > > > > > it's about half of what was added to Thomas, to make Q. A good part
                    > > > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > > the other half is shameless bragging of how special he is.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Not like we don't have a good example of how superstition would have
                    > > > > > > > > been added to Thomas, we have an example, it's
                    > > > > > > > > known to Biblical scholars as Q.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > *****Q - Thomas (and Didache) parallels*****
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 3:7-9 [John the Baptist] said to the multitudes that came out to be
                    > > > > > > > > baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
                    > > > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > > wrath to come? Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to
                    > > > > > > > > say to yourselves, we have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you,
                    > > > > > > > > God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
                    > > > > > > > > now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore
                    > > > > > > > > that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 3:16-17 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who
                    > > > > > > > > is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not
                    > > > > > > > > worthy
                    > > > > > > > > to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His
                    > > > > > > > > winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to
                    > > > > > > > > gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with
                    > > > > > > > > unquenchable fire."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 4:1-13 Jesus, full of the Holy spirit, returned from the Jordan and
                    > > > > > > > > was
                    > > > > > > > > led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the
                    > > > > > > > > devil. He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was
                    > > > > > > > > hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command
                    > > > > > > > > this stone to become bread." Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man
                    > > > > > > > > shall not live by bread alone." The devil took him up, and showed him
                    > > > > > > > > all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him,
                    > > > > > > > > "To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has
                    > > > > > > > > been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will, if you, then,
                    > > > > > > > > will
                    > > > > > > > > worship me, it shall all be yours." And Jesus answered him, 'It is
                    > > > > > > > > written, 'you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you
                    > > > > > > > > serve.'" He took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the
                    > > > > > > > > temple and said to him 'If you are the Son of God throw yourself down
                    > > > > > > > > from here; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,
                    > > > > > > > > to guard you, and on their hands they will bear you up, lest you
                    > > > > > > > > strike your foot against a stone.' " Jesus answered him, "It is said,
                    > > > > > > > > 'you shall not tempt the Lord your God.' "And when the devil had
                    > > > > > > > > ended
                    > > > > > > > > every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 6:40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is
                    > > > > > > > > fully
                    > > > > > > > > taught will be like his teacher.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 6:46 Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 6:47-49 Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I
                    > > > > > > > > will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who
                    > > > > > > > > dug deep, and built the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose,
                    > > > > > > > > the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because
                    > > > > > > > > it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like
                    > > > > > > > > a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, against
                    > > > > > > > > which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that
                    > > > > > > > > house was great.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 7:1-10 A centurion had a slave who was dear to him who was sick and
                    > > > > > > > > at
                    > > > > > > > > the point of death. When he heard of Jesus he sent to him elders of
                    > > > > > > > > the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. When they came to
                    > > > > > > > > Jesus they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you
                    > > > > > > > > do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our
                    > > > > > > > > synagogue." Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house,
                    > > > > > > > > the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord do not trouble
                    > > > > > > > > yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;
                    > > > > > > > > therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and
                    > > > > > > > > let my
                    > > > > > > > > servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers
                    > > > > > > > > under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to
                    > > > > > > > > another, 'come,'
                    > > > > > > > > and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it," when Jesus
                    > > > > > > > > heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude
                    > > > > > > > > that followed him, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such
                    > > > > > > > > faith." When those who had been sent returned to the house, they
                    > > > > > > > > found
                    > > > > > > > > the slave well.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 7:18-23 The disciples of John told him all these things. John
                    > > > > > > > > calling to
                    > > > > > > > > him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, 'Are you he
                    > > > > > > > > who is to come, or shall we look or another?" When the men had come
                    > > > > > > > > to
                    > > > > > > > > him, they said, John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, Are you
                    > > > > > > > > he who is to come or shall we look for another?' In that hour he
                    > > > > > > > > cured
                    > > > > > > > > many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were
                    > > > > > > > > blind he bestowed sight. He answered them, "Go and tell John what you
                    > > > > > > > > have seen and heard; the blind receive their sight, the lame walk,
                    > > > > > > > > lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the
                    > > > > > > > > poor have good news preached to them, and blessed is he who takes no
                    > > > > > > > > offense at me."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
                    > > > > > > > > before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 7:31-34 To what shall I compare the men of this generation, and what
                    > > > > > > > > are
                    > > > > > > > > they like? They are like children sitting in the market place and
                    > > > > > > > > calling to one another, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we
                    > > > > > > > > wailed, and you did not weep. John the Baptist has come eating no
                    > > > > > > > > bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' The Son of
                    > > > > > > > > man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and
                    > > > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > > drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 7:35 Wisdom is justified by all her children."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 9:59-60 To another he said, Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me
                    > > > > > > > > first go and bury my father." But he said to him, leave the dead to
                    > > > > > > > > bury
                    > > > > > > > > their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 10:3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of
                    > > > > > > > > wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; salute no one on the
                    > > > > > > > > road.
                    > > > > > > > > Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if
                    > > > > > > > > a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not,
                    > > > > > > > > it
                    > > > > > > > > shall return to you.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 10:10-11 Whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go
                    > > > > > > > > into
                    > > > > > > > > its streets and say: 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our
                    > > > > > > > > feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the
                    > > > > > > > > kingdom
                    > > > > > > > > of God has come near.'
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 10:12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom
                    > > > > > > > > than
                    > > > > > > > > for that town.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 10:13-15 Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the
                    > > > > > > > > mighty
                    > > > > > > > > works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have
                    > > > > > > > > repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
                    > > > > > > > > more tolerable in the judgement for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And
                    > > > > > > > > you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought
                    > > > > > > > > down
                    > > > > > > > > to Hades.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 10:16 He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me,
                    > > > > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > > he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 10:21-22 He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank thee,
                    > > > > > > > > Father,
                    > > > > > > > > Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the
                    > > > > > > > > wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for
                    > > > > > > > > such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by
                    > > > > > > > > my
                    > > > > > > > > Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the
                    > > > > > > > > Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to
                    > > > > > > > > reveal
                    > > > > > > > > him.'
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 10:23-24 Blessed are the eyes which see what you see! For I tell you
                    > > > > > > > > that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not
                    > > > > > > > > see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will
                    > > > > > > > > instead
                    > > > > > > > > of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give
                    > > > > > > > > him
                    > > > > > > > > a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts
                    > > > > > > > > to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the
                    > > > > > > > > Holy
                    > > > > > > > > Spirit to those who ask him!
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:14-15 He was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had
                    > > > > > > > > gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled. But some of
                    > > > > > > > > them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons"
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:17-18 "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and
                    > > > > > > > > house
                    > > > > > > > > falls upon house. If Satan also is divided against himself, how can
                    > > > > > > > > his
                    > > > > > > > > kingdom stand?
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:19 For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub. If I cast out
                    > > > > > > > > demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore
                    > > > > > > > > they shall be your judges.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:20 If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the
                    > > > > > > > > kingdom of God has come upon you.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:23 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
                    > > > > > > > > with me scatters.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:24-26 When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes
                    > > > > > > > > through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, I
                    > > > > > > > > will return to my house from which I came.' When he comes he finds it
                    > > > > > > > > swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven spirits more
                    > > > > > > > > evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last
                    > > > > > > > > state of
                    > > > > > > > > that man becomes worse than the first.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:29 This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no
                    > > > > > > > > sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:30 As Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son
                    > > > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > > man be to this generation.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:31-32 The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the
                    > > > > > > > > men
                    > > > > > > > > of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
                    > > > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > > earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater
                    > > > > > > > > than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment
                    > > > > > > > > with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the
                    > > > > > > > > preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:42 Woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every
                    > > > > > > > > herb,
                    > > > > > > > > and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have
                    > > > > > > > > done,
                    > > > > > > > > without neglecting the others.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the
                    > > > > > > > > synagogues
                    > > > > > > > > and salutations in the Market places.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men
                    > > > > > > > > walk over them without knowing it."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:46 Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to
                    > > > > > > > > bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your
                    > > > > > > > > fingers.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 11:47-48 Woe to you for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your
                    > > > > > > > > fathers killed. So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your
                    > > > > > > > > fathers; they killed them, and you build their tombs. 11:49-51 The
                    > > > > > > > > Wisdom of God said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of
                    > > > > > > > > whom they will kill and persecute,' that the blood of all the
                    > > > > > > > > prophets, shed from the foundation of the world may be required of
                    > > > > > > > > this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,
                    > > > > > > > > who
                    > > > > > > > > perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it
                    > > > > > > > > shall
                    > > > > > > > > be required of this generation.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 12:4-5 I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body,
                    > > > > > > > > and
                    > > > > > > > > after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to
                    > > > > > > > > fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;
                    > > > > > > > > yes, I tell you fear him!
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 12:8-9 I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son
                    > > > > > > > > of
                    > > > > > > > > man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies
                    > > > > > > > > me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 12:11-12 When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and
                    > > > > > > > > the authorities, do not be anxious how or what you are to answer or
                    > > > > > > > > what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very
                    > > > > > > > > hour what you ought to say.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 12:33-34 Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide your selves
                    > > > > > > > > with
                    > > > > > > > > purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does
                    > > > > > > > > not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where
                    > > > > > > > > your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 12:39-40 If the householder had known at what hour the thief was
                    > > > > > > > > coming,
                    > > > > > > > > he would have been awake and would not have let his house to be
                    > > > > > > > > broken
                    > > > > > > > > into, you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour
                    > > > > > > > > you do not expect.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 12:42-46 The Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and wise steward,
                    > > > > > > > > whom
                    > > > > > > > > his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of
                    > > > > > > > > food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his
                    > > > > > > > > master when he comes will find so doing. Truly I tell you, he will
                    > > > > > > > > set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to
                    > > > > > > > > himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat
                    > > > > > > > > the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get
                    > > > > > > > > drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not
                    > > > > > > > > expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and
                    > > > > > > > > put him with the unfaithful.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 12:57-59 Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go
                    > > > > > > > > with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle
                    > > > > > > > > with
                    > > > > > > > > him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you
                    > > > > > > > > over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you,
                    > > > > > > > > you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will
                    > > > > > > > > seek to enter and will not be able.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 13:25-27 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door,
                    > > > > > > > > you
                    > > > > > > > > will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying,
                    > > > > > > > > 'Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, 'I do not know where you
                    > > > > > > > > come from,' Then you will begin to say, we ate and drank in
                    > > > > > > > > your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I
                    > > > > > > > > tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all
                    > > > > > > > > you workers of iniquity!'
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 13:28-29 You will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and
                    > > > > > > > > Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and
                    > > > > > > > > you yourselves thrust out. Men will come from east and west, and
                    > > > > > > > > from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of
                    > > > > > > > > God.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 13:34-35 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How often would I have gathered your
                    > > > > > > > > children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you
                    > > > > > > > > would not! Behold, your house is forsaken. I tell you, you will not
                    > > > > > > > > see me until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
                    > > > > > > > > Lord!"
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 14:34-35 Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its
                    > > > > > > > > saltiness be restored? It is fit neither for the land nor for the
                    > > > > > > > > dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good
                    > > > > > > > > news
                    > > > > > > > > of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one
                    > > > > > > > > dot
                    > > > > > > > > of the law to become void.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 16:18 Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits
                    > > > > > > > > adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband
                    > > > > > > > > commits
                    > > > > > > > > adultery.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 17:1-2 Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom
                    > > > > > > > > they
                    > > > > > > > > come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his
                    > > > > > > > > neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of
                    > > > > > > > > these little ones to sin.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 17:3-4 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive
                    > > > > > > > > him;
                    > > > > > > > > and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
                    > > > > > > > > seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 17:5-6 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" The Lord
                    > > > > > > > > said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to
                    > > > > > > > > this mulberry tree, 'Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it
                    > > > > > > > > would obey you."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 17:24 As the lightning lights up the sky from one side to the other,
                    > > > > > > > > so
                    > > > > > > > > will Son of man be in his day.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 17:26-27 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of
                    > > > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > > Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in
                    > > > > > > > > marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came
                    > > > > > > > > and destroyed then all.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 17:28-30 As it was in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they
                    > > > > > > > > bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot
                    > > > > > > > > went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and
                    > > > > > > > > destroyed them all. So will it be on the day when the Son of man is
                    > > > > > > > > revealed.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 17:37 They said to him, "Where Lord?" He said to them, "Where the
                    > > > > > > > > corpse is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 19:12-24 He said to them, "A nobleman went into a far country to
                    > > > > > > > > receive
                    > > > > > > > > kingly power and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave
                    > > > > > > > > them
                    > > > > > > > > ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' But his
                    > > > > > > > > citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not
                    > > > > > > > > want this man to reign over us.' When he returned, having received
                    > > > > > > > > the
                    > > > > > > > > kingly power, he commanded these servants to whom he had given the
                    > > > > > > > > money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained
                    > > > > > > > > by
                    > > > > > > > > trading. The first came before him saying 'Lord, your pound has made
                    > > > > > > > > ten pounds more.' And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant!
                    > > > > > > > > Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have
                    > > > > > > > > authority over ten cities.' The second came, saying, 'Lord, your
                    > > > > > > > > pound
                    > > > > > > > > has made five pounds,' He said to him; 'And you are to be over five
                    > > > > > > > > cities.' Then another came, saying, 'Lord here is your pound, which I
                    > > > > > > > > kept laid away in a napkin; for I was afraid of you, because you are
                    > > > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > > severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you
                    > > > > > > > > did not sow.' He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own
                    > > > > > > > > mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking
                    > > > > > > > > up
                    > > > > > > > > what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Why then did
                    > > > > > > > > you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have
                    > > > > > > > > collected it with interest?' He said to those who stood by, 'Take the
                    > > > > > > > > pound from him, and give it to him who has ten pounds.' They said to
                    > > > > > > > > him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!'
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > 22:28-30 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my
                    > > > > > > > > Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you
                    > > > > > > > > may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones
                    > > > > > > > > judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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