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Re: New to the group

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey Greg ... I think the subject of where Freemason and Gnostic perspectives are (were) similar and where they are different are two different subjects that
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 27, 2009
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      Hey Greg

      >>>The main reason I have an interest in Gnosticism relates directly to my beliefs as a Free-Mason. We believe that there is one supreme being, even though our members come from all religious backgrounds and all walks of life. We do not favor one religion over another. Belief in a supreme being is all that is requires. The Craft is a meeting place where men of all religions can come together to study and seek enlightenment.<<<

      I think the subject of where Freemason and Gnostic perspectives are (were) similar and where they are different are two different subjects that overlap and can give us a lot of food for conversation. It could even be an interesting question as to whether any of those ancient Gnostic groups could fit into the FAM today.

      Here is a big one; it is possible to debate whether the Gnostics believed in a "supreme being". If they did not, would they be allowed to join a Lodge? Or maybe the real issue is..... what is a "supreme being".

      PMCV
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Terrie My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 27, 2009
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        Hey Terrie

        My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.


        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "esapress@..." <esapress@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Greg, PMCV,
        >
        > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
        >
        > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
        >
        > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
        >
        > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
        >
        > Terrie
        >
      • william unowho
        Terrie I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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          Terrie
           
          I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
          I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
           
          William


          From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
          To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
          Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group

           

          Hey Terrie

          My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.

          --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@.. ." <esapress@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Greg, PMCV,
          >
          > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
          >
          > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
          >
          > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
          >
          > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
          >
          > Terrie
          >

        • esapress@ymail.com
          I think that s very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it s very curious. Terrie
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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            I think that's very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it's very curious.

            Terrie

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, william unowho <jake0840@...> wrote:
            >
            > Terrie
            >
            > I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
            > I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
            >
            > William
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
            > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
            >
            >  
            > Hey Terrie
            >
            > My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@ ." <esapress@ .> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Greg, PMCV,
            > >
            > > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
            > >
            > > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
            > >
            > > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
            > >
            > > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
            > >
            > > Terrie
            > >
            >
          • william unowho
            actually Terrie Im being clandestine in my comments. Ive been known to travel in the past. didnt go as far though in my travels. Also as I grow in gnosis I do
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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              actually Terrie
              Im being clandestine in my comments. Ive been known to travel in the past. didnt go as far though in my travels. Also as I grow in gnosis I do see a lot of allusions to masonic values..from the vantage point where I could see in my limitied view.
               
              William


              From: "esapress@..." <esapress@...>
              To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 11:44:38 AM
              Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group

               

              I think that's very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it's very curious.

              Terrie

              --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, william unowho <jake0840@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Terrie
              >
              > I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
              > I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
              >
              > William
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
              > To: gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
              > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
              >
              >  
              > Hey Terrie
              >
              > My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@ ." <esapress@ .> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Greg, PMCV,
              > >
              > > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
              > >
              > > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
              > >
              > > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
              > >
              > > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
              > >
              > > Terrie
              > >
              >

            • Jim osburn
              Hi everyone, guess i ve just been lurking huh, I also am a 3rd degree mason, my understanding of the masoninc qaulification is do you believe in God? , no
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                Hi everyone, guess i've just been lurking huh, I also am a 3rd degree mason, my understanding of the masoninc qaulification is "do you believe in God?", no explinations or  other qualifcations on this subject just a simple yes or no to the question we are forbiden to expound on our beliefs in lodge, so I guess that leaves it wide open for your own personal beliefs of God.
                --- On Wed, 10/28/09, esapress@... <esapress@...> wrote:

                From: esapress@... <esapress@...>
                Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 10:44 AM

                 
                I think that's very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it's very curious.

                Terrie

                --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, william unowho <jake0840@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Terrie
                >
                > I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
                > I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
                >
                > William
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                > To: gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
                > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                >
                >  
                > Hey Terrie
                >
                > My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.
                >
                > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@ ." <esapress@ .> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Greg, PMCV,
                > >
                > > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
                > >
                > > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
                > >
                > > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
                > >
                > > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
                > >
                > > Terrie
                > >
                >

              • esapress@ymail.com
                What I like about Masonry first, as an organization, is their social outreach; typically, they volunteer their time and donate (so on) to organizations like
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                  What I like about Masonry first, as an organization, is their social outreach; typically, they volunteer their time and donate (so on) to organizations like shelters, soup kitchens and hospitals. They do a lot of good things in our cities and towns.

                  As a formal social organization, honestly, I don't like how the male orders want to orchestrate the women' orders: Oh, could you do a bakesale for suchandsuch, and then come over here and serve us biscuts and coffee after our meeting; whereas or otherwise, on a intellectual and social basis, individually, the men and women are very much on their own and equal footing, freely and formally socializing.

                  As a religious system I'd say there's a twist because while Gnosticism is a religious/spiritual category-system and public study-of; Masonry is a society/org which is private a/b includes religious/spiritual study, organized ceremony, new/old business, social calendars, and coffee as I mentioned.

                  As far as scripture goes a/o what Masons do/don't think, study, believe; I'd think a Mason might be the first to point out how many different people, individuals, are driving down the same road. That's the thing about Masonry, the org is formalized/concrete however the people themselves are fairly unencumbered outside-of or by the Lodges.

                  Terrie
                • Jim osburn
                  I agree with you Terrie on these points,   It is a social organization and sort of fills that role for me. In this neck of the woods most social and religious
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                    I agree with you Terrie on these points,
                     
                    It is a social organization and sort of fills that role for me. In this neck of the woods most social and religious groups are male dominate.
                     
                    I all so don't like how the male part of the order try to run the subordinate orders, because my personal view is that at best men are equal to women, perhaps even not that, does any one hear "Goddess worship" :) I lean that way a lot.
                     
                    I do not consider masonry as a religion, certainly not mine, and I don't think most masons do either.
                     
                    Please understand I am not trying to defend masonry, just making personal observations with my experiences, also as I mentioned I am only 3rd degree so there is much in the higher degrees I know nothing about. I have read a lot about the history or mythology of masonry's origins and am very interested in the esoteric side. As is well known the "public image" is really down played or white washed and I suspect there is a lot more to it, I just haven't decided yet to invest  the time and money to pursue the higher degrees.
                     
                    Jim
                  • esapress@ymail.com
                    Tell you what, socially, I sure do agree. For example, the last time I was stuck in a one horse town in the middle of no-where I found something really fun to
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
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                      Tell you what, socially, I sure do agree.

                      For example, the last time I was stuck in a one horse town in the middle of no-where I found something really fun to do, namely, I spent my time teaching a mason mathematics, math and astro, really, all kinds of research that I do. It was fun and I think for him, he was so happy to see something new at his age, it was like a breath of fresh air all around.

                      He was a Master Mason, a retired surgeon, an art collector with a particular interest in the field of symbolism which was something we quite had in common; man, we had such fun discussing. He'd always say that I had taught him mathematics and that I was his 2nd great teacher which was quite a compliment (especially so considering who his first teacher was) and still is.

                      Ultimately, we wrote a little novel of sorts the year I spent there a/b sensibly I squashed it because I don't prefer it and in greater parts it was/is my decision and property. It was just something he wanted me/us to do (like an exercise, perhaps) and I agreed; besides it was a fun way to spend the time while I was in town and it did in fact help sharpen my/his skills (in part his intent I'd guess) even though, ultimately, I still don't/won't have an appreciation or interest in publishing fiction.

                      I found out recently that he passed away; probably why this comes up a/o is on my mind of late, I would've liked to have visited a bit more; I was really fond of him.

                      Terrie


                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Jim osburn <garamanus48@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I agree with you Terrie on these points,
                      >  
                      > It is a social organization and sort of fills that role for me. In this neck of the woods most social and religious groups are male dominate.
                      >  
                      > I all so don't like how the male part of the order try to run the subordinate orders, because my personal view is that at best men are equal to women, perhaps even not that, does any one hear "Goddess worship" :) I lean that way a lot.
                      >  
                      > I do not consider masonry as a religion, certainly not mine, and I don't think most masons do either.
                      >  
                      > Please understand I am not trying to defend masonry, just making personal observations with my experiences, also as I mentioned I am only 3rd degree so there is much in the higher degrees I know nothing about. I have read a lot about the history or mythology of masonry's origins and am very interested in the esoteric side. As is well known the "public image" is really down played or white washed and I suspect there is a lot more to it, I just haven't decided yet to invest  the time and money to pursue the higher degrees.
                      >  
                      > Jim
                      >
                    • esapress@ymail.com
                      Speaking of traveling, thinking about my fried Rex - I have been trying to find out what happened, how his cancer research went, how his last days were,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
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                        Speaking of traveling, thinking about my fried Rex - I have been trying to find out what happened, how his cancer research went, how his last days were, whether he was happy, at peace, whether his last requests were honored in full, if the Masons held a ceremony for him, so on, but thus far the gal/guy who was looking after him is still (as she says) too busy traveling.

                        Terrie

                        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, william unowho <jake0840@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > actually Terrie
                        > Im being clandestine in my comments. Ive been known to travel in the past. didnt go as far though in my travels. Also as I grow in gnosis I do see a lot of allusions to masonic values..from the vantage point where I could see in my limitied view.
                        >
                        > William
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: "esapress@..." <esapress@...>
                        > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 11:44:38 AM
                        > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                        >
                        >  
                        > I think that's very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it's very curious.
                        >
                        > Terrie
                        >
                        > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, william unowho <jake0840@ .> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Terrie
                        > >
                        > > I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
                        > > I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
                        > >
                        > > William
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > > From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                        > > To: gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
                        > > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > Hey Terrie
                        > >
                        > > My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.
                        > >
                        > > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@ ." <esapress@ .> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Greg, PMCV,
                        > > >
                        > > > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
                        > > >
                        > > > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
                        > > >
                        > > > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
                        > > >
                        > > > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
                        > > >
                        > > > Terrie
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
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