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Re: New to the group

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey Greg, welcome to the forum. As for you wanting to study various beliefs and make up your own mind, I think you will find this forum fits that goal. This is
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 25, 2009
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      Hey Greg, welcome to the forum.

      As for you wanting to study various beliefs and make up your own mind, I think you will find this forum fits that goal. This is not a forum dedicated to the belief in "Gnosticism", but rather a forum that simply attempts to present the historical facts and ideas so that people can use them however they wish (even if they use them as a tool to disagree with Gnosticism). We do leave room for people to present their personal beliefs as well... we just try to keep deal with them as they relate to that historical subject.

      I think a comparative study of Freemasonry and Gnosticism could be interesting. Since you are a practicing Freemason then I guess you already know that Albert Pike has some antagonistic words towards the Gnostics. Of course, in his time the movement wasn't understood as well as it is now so not all his points are accurate, but I think the basics of his debate with Gnosticism is and accurate reflection of the differences between your movement and theirs.

      Although the Sumerians, Essenes, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc., are not Gnostic, they may have some importance in conversation of the subject.

      I think one of the first subjects (one that Pike points out) may be just who "God" is in Freemasonry vs Gnosticism... if they are the same, not the same but related, irreconcilable, or whatever.

      Fodder for conversation.
      PMCV

      __________________________________________________

      Thank you for the comments! I have not studied the Nag Hammadi in detail yet, but look forward to it. In my research, I have found several curious ties between Masonic ritual/beliefs and the ancient teachings and writings of the Sumerians and the Essenes. Also, as you all may know, King Seqenenre Tao II was the last of the true Egyptian kings to possess the knowledge of the "king making" ritual (raising from the dead), and was murdered in his own temple by three conspirators from the south. The Hyksos king was angry because, not having gone through this king making ritual he was seen as a false king and occupier. So he had Sequnere killed for not giving him the secret. Long story short, This ritual is still observed by us today and obviously can be proven historically. I have since begun to wonder what other knowledge and information has been omitted and hidden! We believe that the Supreme Being (whoever that may be) expects us to search for true knowledge and not be lazy in our tasks. That is, not to follow others as sheep. I am looking forward to gaining knowledge and insight from all of you.


      Greg
    • Greg Hemmings
      PMCV, � � �Very good points! �The main reason I have an interest in Gnosticism relates directly to my beliefs as a Free-Mason. �We believe that there is one
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 26, 2009
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        PMCV,
         
             Very good points!  The main reason I have an interest in Gnosticism relates directly to my beliefs as a Free-Mason.  We believe that there is one supreme being, even though our members come from all religious backgrounds and all walks of life.  We do not favor one religion over another.  Belief in a supreme being is all that is requires.  The Craft is a meeting place where men of all religions can come together to study and seek enlightenment.
         
             Mr Pike was a very interesting fellow!  I think he was most hated by the Catholic Church.  I am just beginning to study his writings, but it seems he has not thought all the way through the Gnostic philosophy.  We do have fundamental differences.  Though we believe in a supreme being, we do not believe in a lessor, evil being creating the world.  I personally  find the creator of the world to be less than perfect.  Reason would say that if he were perfect, then all he created would be perfect, so perfect in fact that it could not exist as a world (nothing could eat because something else would have to die).  I think the supreme being had a working idea of what he wanted and, through trial and error, we are a work in progress.  I STRONGLY believe that he has given all of us the ability to think and act for ourselves.  This free will allows us to do the wrong things and suffer the consequences (not a perfect world).
         
             The Masons believe in freedom and free will.  We seek knowledge to make the best of this short time we have here on earth.  We believe that each individual can choose light or dark.  With seeking the light comes responsibility.  The answers are already here for us supplied by the supreme master, it is up to each individual to seek these answers and attain the light.  Our light is knowledge.  It is these thoughts I am trying to study and resolve, not just with Gnosticism, but also with ancient history, religions, and writings.  I hope I don't sound like a rambling lunatic, but I KNOW this all ties together somewhere, somehow.  I am just trying to find it.
         
         
        Greg
      • esapress@ymail.com
        Hi Greg, PMCV, I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job s Daughter when I was a child. I ve known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 27, 2009
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          Hi Greg, PMCV,

          I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)

          I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.

          Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?

          At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.

          Terrie
        • Luke Adams
          Not all Gnostics believe that the Demiurge is evil; some just see It as a benighted creature. I happen to believe in the reality of evil, and whether we call
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 27, 2009
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            Not all Gnostics believe that the Demiurge is evil; some just see It as a benighted creature.  I happen to believe in the reality of evil, and whether we call that Personified Archetype of Evil "the Demiurge," or "the Devil," or whatever, I believe Evil is a reality.  This is a concept that distinguishes Gnostic thought from, for example, much in New Age thought and much in Advaita Vedanta. 
             
            Gnostics use myth and image to evoke an experience of the Ultimate Reality and of the Perennial Philosophy in our own persons.  There are many different myths and images used by Gnostics toward that end.  But we do have some common themes. Among these is that the blindness of wisdom in creatures leads them to do despicable things out of their ignorance, because they place themselves in the stead of the Most High God.  This, after all, is the story of the Demiurge (and of the fall of Lucifer, for that matter).
             
            Most of the Gnostic myths -- which, when read by people who haven't had that Spiritual Awakening yet are usually interpreted as stark dualism -- indicate that Gnosticism acknowledges the reality and persistence of Evil.  But to say as much does not indicate that Gnostics acknowledge Evil as an energy that has a power equal to that of the true God.  Our myths seek to illustrate that when the Wisdom (Sophia) and the Great Idea (Logos) of the Most High God are separated from each other, chaos ensues.
             
            The idea of the Demiurge is to explain how the mere shadows of reality -- this material world -- could become something perceived as "all there is."  In the myths, the Demiurge proclaims himself the only true God and the creator of his own (and all of his replicas') reality.  This is nonsense, and not unlike a lot of the New Age blazing "light" that passes for spirituality these days.  It is also eerily reminiscent of Advaita Vedanta, the philosophy that gave us the caste system in India.
             
            Gnosticsim, in its many forms, is close to the Vishistadvaita school of Vedanta, though it is often mistaken as a Western version of the Dvaita school.
             
            In the Lurian and other myths, the Demiurge basks in proclaiming himself the God of his (and all) life.  Sophia (the Divine Wisdom) calls out to him in his ignorance, and shouts, "You lie, Shama-El!"  "Shama-El" translates as, "God of the Blind."  She hurls herself into the shadows to try to rescue the replicas of the Demiruge so that they will know of their truly Divine parentage and be what they were meant to be.  But the Demiurge and the Archons, desiring Sophia, set upon her and engulf her and render her blind.  So she wails across the stars to her consort, the Logos (the Divine Big Idea) for liberation (she asks him to be the "Soter"). 
             
            Now then, all the light, of which the shadow is only the material reflection, is the Body of the Logos, and Wisdom has been blinded within the shadows of that Body.  Sophia's call is for the Logos to re-enlighten the Body, to bring the little Divine sparks back out of the shadows.  The Aeon that was to be a Lightbearer (Lucifer) is steeped in ignorance and thinks himself the Most High God.  The Logos is summoned by Sophia to become a new Lightbearer to the material universe.
             
            This is the fabric of our mythology.  It isn’t necessarily a fundamentalist belief system.  It is a way of expressing the experience of Reality.
             
            Luke+
          • pmcvflag
            Hey Greg ... I think the subject of where Freemason and Gnostic perspectives are (were) similar and where they are different are two different subjects that
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 27, 2009
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              Hey Greg

              >>>The main reason I have an interest in Gnosticism relates directly to my beliefs as a Free-Mason. We believe that there is one supreme being, even though our members come from all religious backgrounds and all walks of life. We do not favor one religion over another. Belief in a supreme being is all that is requires. The Craft is a meeting place where men of all religions can come together to study and seek enlightenment.<<<

              I think the subject of where Freemason and Gnostic perspectives are (were) similar and where they are different are two different subjects that overlap and can give us a lot of food for conversation. It could even be an interesting question as to whether any of those ancient Gnostic groups could fit into the FAM today.

              Here is a big one; it is possible to debate whether the Gnostics believed in a "supreme being". If they did not, would they be allowed to join a Lodge? Or maybe the real issue is..... what is a "supreme being".

              PMCV
            • pmcvflag
              Hey Terrie My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 27, 2009
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                Hey Terrie

                My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.


                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "esapress@..." <esapress@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Greg, PMCV,
                >
                > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
                >
                > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
                >
                > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
                >
                > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
                >
                > Terrie
                >
              • william unowho
                Terrie I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                  Terrie
                   
                  I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
                  I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
                   
                  William


                  From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                  To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
                  Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group

                   

                  Hey Terrie

                  My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.

                  --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@.. ." <esapress@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Greg, PMCV,
                  >
                  > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
                  >
                  > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
                  >
                  > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
                  >
                  > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
                  >
                  > Terrie
                  >

                • esapress@ymail.com
                  I think that s very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it s very curious. Terrie
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                    I think that's very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it's very curious.

                    Terrie

                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, william unowho <jake0840@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Terrie
                    >
                    > I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
                    > I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
                    >
                    > William
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                    > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
                    > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                    >
                    >  
                    > Hey Terrie
                    >
                    > My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.
                    >
                    > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@ ." <esapress@ .> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Greg, PMCV,
                    > >
                    > > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
                    > >
                    > > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
                    > >
                    > > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
                    > >
                    > > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
                    > >
                    > > Terrie
                    > >
                    >
                  • william unowho
                    actually Terrie Im being clandestine in my comments. Ive been known to travel in the past. didnt go as far though in my travels. Also as I grow in gnosis I do
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                      actually Terrie
                      Im being clandestine in my comments. Ive been known to travel in the past. didnt go as far though in my travels. Also as I grow in gnosis I do see a lot of allusions to masonic values..from the vantage point where I could see in my limitied view.
                       
                      William


                      From: "esapress@..." <esapress@...>
                      To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 11:44:38 AM
                      Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group

                       

                      I think that's very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it's very curious.

                      Terrie

                      --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, william unowho <jake0840@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Terrie
                      >
                      > I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
                      > I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
                      >
                      > William
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                      > To: gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
                      > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                      >
                      >  
                      > Hey Terrie
                      >
                      > My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.
                      >
                      > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@ ." <esapress@ .> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Greg, PMCV,
                      > >
                      > > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
                      > >
                      > > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
                      > >
                      > > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
                      > >
                      > > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
                      > >
                      > > Terrie
                      > >
                      >

                    • Jim osburn
                      Hi everyone, guess i ve just been lurking huh, I also am a 3rd degree mason, my understanding of the masoninc qaulification is do you believe in God? , no
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                        Hi everyone, guess i've just been lurking huh, I also am a 3rd degree mason, my understanding of the masoninc qaulification is "do you believe in God?", no explinations or  other qualifcations on this subject just a simple yes or no to the question we are forbiden to expound on our beliefs in lodge, so I guess that leaves it wide open for your own personal beliefs of God.
                        --- On Wed, 10/28/09, esapress@... <esapress@...> wrote:

                        From: esapress@... <esapress@...>
                        Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                        To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 10:44 AM

                         
                        I think that's very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it's very curious.

                        Terrie

                        --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, william unowho <jake0840@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > Terrie
                        >
                        > I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
                        > I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
                        >
                        > William
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                        > To: gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
                        > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                        >
                        >  
                        > Hey Terrie
                        >
                        > My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.
                        >
                        > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@ ." <esapress@ .> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Greg, PMCV,
                        > >
                        > > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
                        > >
                        > > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
                        > >
                        > > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
                        > >
                        > > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
                        > >
                        > > Terrie
                        > >
                        >

                      • esapress@ymail.com
                        What I like about Masonry first, as an organization, is their social outreach; typically, they volunteer their time and donate (so on) to organizations like
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                          What I like about Masonry first, as an organization, is their social outreach; typically, they volunteer their time and donate (so on) to organizations like shelters, soup kitchens and hospitals. They do a lot of good things in our cities and towns.

                          As a formal social organization, honestly, I don't like how the male orders want to orchestrate the women' orders: Oh, could you do a bakesale for suchandsuch, and then come over here and serve us biscuts and coffee after our meeting; whereas or otherwise, on a intellectual and social basis, individually, the men and women are very much on their own and equal footing, freely and formally socializing.

                          As a religious system I'd say there's a twist because while Gnosticism is a religious/spiritual category-system and public study-of; Masonry is a society/org which is private a/b includes religious/spiritual study, organized ceremony, new/old business, social calendars, and coffee as I mentioned.

                          As far as scripture goes a/o what Masons do/don't think, study, believe; I'd think a Mason might be the first to point out how many different people, individuals, are driving down the same road. That's the thing about Masonry, the org is formalized/concrete however the people themselves are fairly unencumbered outside-of or by the Lodges.

                          Terrie
                        • Jim osburn
                          I agree with you Terrie on these points,   It is a social organization and sort of fills that role for me. In this neck of the woods most social and religious
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 28, 2009
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                            I agree with you Terrie on these points,
                             
                            It is a social organization and sort of fills that role for me. In this neck of the woods most social and religious groups are male dominate.
                             
                            I all so don't like how the male part of the order try to run the subordinate orders, because my personal view is that at best men are equal to women, perhaps even not that, does any one hear "Goddess worship" :) I lean that way a lot.
                             
                            I do not consider masonry as a religion, certainly not mine, and I don't think most masons do either.
                             
                            Please understand I am not trying to defend masonry, just making personal observations with my experiences, also as I mentioned I am only 3rd degree so there is much in the higher degrees I know nothing about. I have read a lot about the history or mythology of masonry's origins and am very interested in the esoteric side. As is well known the "public image" is really down played or white washed and I suspect there is a lot more to it, I just haven't decided yet to invest  the time and money to pursue the higher degrees.
                             
                            Jim
                          • esapress@ymail.com
                            Tell you what, socially, I sure do agree. For example, the last time I was stuck in a one horse town in the middle of no-where I found something really fun to
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
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                              Tell you what, socially, I sure do agree.

                              For example, the last time I was stuck in a one horse town in the middle of no-where I found something really fun to do, namely, I spent my time teaching a mason mathematics, math and astro, really, all kinds of research that I do. It was fun and I think for him, he was so happy to see something new at his age, it was like a breath of fresh air all around.

                              He was a Master Mason, a retired surgeon, an art collector with a particular interest in the field of symbolism which was something we quite had in common; man, we had such fun discussing. He'd always say that I had taught him mathematics and that I was his 2nd great teacher which was quite a compliment (especially so considering who his first teacher was) and still is.

                              Ultimately, we wrote a little novel of sorts the year I spent there a/b sensibly I squashed it because I don't prefer it and in greater parts it was/is my decision and property. It was just something he wanted me/us to do (like an exercise, perhaps) and I agreed; besides it was a fun way to spend the time while I was in town and it did in fact help sharpen my/his skills (in part his intent I'd guess) even though, ultimately, I still don't/won't have an appreciation or interest in publishing fiction.

                              I found out recently that he passed away; probably why this comes up a/o is on my mind of late, I would've liked to have visited a bit more; I was really fond of him.

                              Terrie


                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, Jim osburn <garamanus48@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I agree with you Terrie on these points,
                              >  
                              > It is a social organization and sort of fills that role for me. In this neck of the woods most social and religious groups are male dominate.
                              >  
                              > I all so don't like how the male part of the order try to run the subordinate orders, because my personal view is that at best men are equal to women, perhaps even not that, does any one hear "Goddess worship" :) I lean that way a lot.
                              >  
                              > I do not consider masonry as a religion, certainly not mine, and I don't think most masons do either.
                              >  
                              > Please understand I am not trying to defend masonry, just making personal observations with my experiences, also as I mentioned I am only 3rd degree so there is much in the higher degrees I know nothing about. I have read a lot about the history or mythology of masonry's origins and am very interested in the esoteric side. As is well known the "public image" is really down played or white washed and I suspect there is a lot more to it, I just haven't decided yet to invest  the time and money to pursue the higher degrees.
                              >  
                              > Jim
                              >
                            • esapress@ymail.com
                              Speaking of traveling, thinking about my fried Rex - I have been trying to find out what happened, how his cancer research went, how his last days were,
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
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                                Speaking of traveling, thinking about my fried Rex - I have been trying to find out what happened, how his cancer research went, how his last days were, whether he was happy, at peace, whether his last requests were honored in full, if the Masons held a ceremony for him, so on, but thus far the gal/guy who was looking after him is still (as she says) too busy traveling.

                                Terrie

                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, william unowho <jake0840@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > actually Terrie
                                > Im being clandestine in my comments. Ive been known to travel in the past. didnt go as far though in my travels. Also as I grow in gnosis I do see a lot of allusions to masonic values..from the vantage point where I could see in my limitied view.
                                >
                                > William
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: "esapress@..." <esapress@...>
                                > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 11:44:38 AM
                                > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                                >
                                >  
                                > I think that's very good suggestion PMCV and William, thanks. As you can tell, this whole issue surprised me, it's very curious.
                                >
                                > Terrie
                                >
                                > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, william unowho <jake0840@ .> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Terrie
                                > >
                                > > I would agree with an earlier commenter. while many in this group have some knowledge of gnosis , not many are masons..that may limit thier input. Why dont you do a comparison of where they seem to intersect in your opinion and then allow us to add value.
                                > > I think tht as per my research gnostics did indeed believe in a higher being and they should have no issue with masonry based on that metric. but again I think you can add better food to this discussion if you  point out some like or seemingly unlike issues
                                > >
                                > > William
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                > > From: pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                                > > To: gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 10:05:14 PM
                                > > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: New to the group
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > > Hey Terrie
                                > >
                                > > My thought is that we should talk about and compare these issues before we really say whether there is a contrast or friction between Freemasons and Gnosticism, or some connection. I should say at the start that depending on what comes up I reserve the right to argue both sides.
                                > >
                                > > --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, "esapress@ ." <esapress@ .> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Greg, PMCV,
                                > > >
                                > > > I come from a long line of Masons, and was, myself, a Job's Daughter when I was a child. I've known several 33rd degree Masons in my lifetime and what a pleasure it always is to chat with such folk; truly some of my favorite conversations (even if, dang, they're always men.)
                                > > >
                                > > > I am/was unaware of any sort of essential friction between Gnosticism and Masonry, so, I am certainly finding this conversation interesting.
                                > > >
                                > > > Greg, you seem to be indicating that these differences aren't personal a/o drama rather that they are basic differences abiding between principal and concept. Am I reading you correctly?
                                > > >
                                > > > At any rate, please do go on, I'm finding this conversation quite interesting. Also, I too am having a look at some of Pike's writings because, actually, as fate would have it his name's been coming up a lot of late, so, there's good timing there I think.
                                > > >
                                > > > Terrie
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
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