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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: Is God and HIs works perfect?

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  • Ken
    ... Hi Cari, I can t recall anything like that. Ken
    Message 1 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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      --- On Fri, 5/15/09, lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      > For purposes of our forum, does Gnostic scripture talk
      > about Jesus dying "for our sins"? Anyone?
      >
      > Cari

      Hi Cari,
      I can't recall anything like that.

      Ken
    • Ben
      ... dont think so, just the opposite.... Gnostics, much like the unitarian universalists, tend to focus on jesus life...not his death afterall LIFE seems to
      Message 2 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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        > >
        > > Would you encourage your own children, to think it a good idea to use a scapegoat, if for instance, something at school happened to them where they did not step up and instead, let another child suffer?
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > DL
        > >
        >
        >
        > For purposes of our forum, does Gnostic scripture talk about Jesus dying "for our sins"? Anyone?
        >
        > Cari
        >

        dont think so, just the opposite....
        Gnostics, much like the unitarian universalists, tend to focus on jesus' life...not his death

        afterall LIFE seems to be rather univerally important amongst Gnostic groups.... not death
      • mary wanstall
        I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to
        Message 3 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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          I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to understand why people believe what they do, I am still searching but that is how it should be isn`t it?
           maryw

        • lady_caritas
          ... Thanks, Ken and Ben, for your responses. Yes, even the highly Christianized Valentinians seemed to interpret death and resurrection in a unique way. They
          Message 4 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ben" <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > >
            > > > Would you encourage your own children, to think it a good idea to use a scapegoat, if for instance, something at school happened to them where they did not step up and instead, let another child suffer?
            > > >
            > > > Regards
            > > > DL
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > For purposes of our forum, does Gnostic scripture talk about Jesus dying "for our sins"? Anyone?
            > >
            > > Cari
            > >
            >
            > dont think so, just the opposite....
            > Gnostics, much like the unitarian universalists, tend to focus on jesus' life...not his death
            >
            > afterall LIFE seems to be rather univerally important amongst Gnostic groups.... not death
            >


            Thanks, Ken and Ben, for your responses.

            Yes, even the highly Christianized Valentinians seemed to interpret death and resurrection in a unique way. They stressed the importance of spiritual `resurrection' occurring in this lifetime.

            I dug up a few quotes to share:

            From Gospel of Philip (Bentley Layton trans.):

            "Those who say that the lord first died and then arose are mistaken, for he first arose and then died. If one does not first get resurrection, one will not die. As god lives! That person would . . ." (Too bad we're missing what comes next.)

            "People who say they will first die and then arise are mistaken. If they do not first receive resurrection while they are alive, once they have died they will receive nothing. Just so it is said of baptism. `Great is baptism!" For if one receives it, one will live."

            Treatise on Resurrection also carries this theme:

            "Therefore do not concentrate on particulars, O Rheginus, nor live according to (the dictates of) this flesh; do not, for the sake of unity. Rather, leave the state of dispersion and bondage, and then you already have resurrection. For if the dying part (flesh) 'knows itself,' and knows that since it is moribund it is rushing toward this outcome (death) even if it has lived many years in the present life, why do you (the intellect) not examine your own self and see that you have arisen? And you are rushing toward this outcome (that is, separation from the body) since you possess resurrection."


            Cari
          • lady_caritas
            ... Mary, it s interesting you say you are still searching. I agree that it s a process. I must be in a quoting mood tonight. In Zostrianos we read about
            Message 5 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, mary wanstall <marywa900@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to understand why people believe what they do, I am still searching but that is how it should be isn`t it?
              >  maryw
              >


              Mary, it's interesting you say you are still searching. I agree that it's a process.

              I must be in a quoting mood tonight. In "Zostrianos" we read about different kinds of persons. Near the end of the list ~

              "And the (kind of) person that gets saved is the one who seeks to understand, and so to discover, the self and the intellect. Oh how much power that person has!"

              Feeling powerful, Mary? :-)

              And then finally the "person that has been saved"..... "has withdrawn into god."

              After listening to this, Zostrianos lifts up praise unto

              "the living and unengendered [god] who resides in truth;
              the unengendered [concealed] (aeon);
              the perfect, masculine, invisible, first-manifest intellect;
              the invisible thrice-male child; and
              [the divine self-originate (aeon)]."


              At least this is one scenario from ancient times.

              Any thoughts?

              Cari
            • David Carter
              Probably, we all have heard of the theory that Mary Magdelene was the desciple that Jesus loved .  There is some belief that Jesus told Mary (during the last
              Message 6 of 18 , May 16, 2009
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                Probably, we all have heard of the theory that Mary Magdelene was the desciple that "Jesus loved".  There is some belief that Jesus told Mary (during the last supper) that "enlightenment" comes from within.  Peter got angry because he felt that Jesus had told a women something that he had not told the other desciples.  Does anyone know more of this scenario?  dc 

                --- On Sat, 5/16/09, lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                From: lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Is God and HIs works perfect?
                To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 12:13 AM

                --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, mary wanstall <marywa900@. ..> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to understand why people believe what they do, I am still searching but that is how it should be isn`t it?
                >  maryw
                >

                Mary, it's interesting you say you are still searching. I agree that it's a process.

                I must be in a quoting mood tonight. In "Zostrianos" we read about different kinds of persons. Near the end of the list ~

                "And the (kind of) person that gets saved is the one who seeks to understand, and so to discover, the self and the intellect. Oh how much power that person has!"

                Feeling powerful, Mary? :-)

                And then finally the "person that has been saved"..... "has withdrawn into god."

                After listening to this, Zostrianos lifts up praise unto

                "the living and unengendered [god] who resides in truth;
                the unengendered [concealed] (aeon);
                the perfect, masculine, invisible, first-manifest intellect;
                the invisible thrice-male child; and
                [the divine self-originate (aeon)]."

                At least this is one scenario from ancient times.

                Any thoughts?

                Cari


              • lady_caritas
                ... DC, I don t know about the Last Supper, but The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene talks about what Mary learned in a vision.
                Message 7 of 18 , May 17, 2009
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, David Carter <cartercanes@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Probably, we all have heard of the theory that Mary Magdelene was the desciple that "Jesus loved".  There is some belief that Jesus told Mary (during the last supper) that "enlightenment" comes from within.  Peter got angry because he felt that Jesus had told a women something that he had not told the other desciples.  Does anyone know more of this scenario?  dc 
                  >


                  DC, I don't know about the Last Supper, but The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene talks about what Mary learned in a vision.

                  http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

                  Hope this helps.

                  Cari
                • Br Benjamin Assisi
                  the sophia of Jesus Christ may be worth looking at also... as it begins after Jesus has died from the mandaean book of john perspective, Mary is seen as a
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 18, 2009
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                    the sophia of Jesus Christ may be worth looking at also... as it begins after Jesus has "died"

                    from the mandaean book of john perspective, Mary is seen as a special Jew that ran away to join the circus (Jesus)... that may also be helpful to examine

                    On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:46 PM, lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, David Carter <cartercanes@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Probably, we all have heard of the theory that Mary Magdelene was the desciple that "Jesus loved".  There is some belief that Jesus told Mary (during the last supper) that "enlightenment" comes from within.  Peter got angry because he felt that Jesus had told a women something that he had not told the other desciples.  Does anyone know more of this scenario?  dc 
                    >


                    DC, I don't know about the Last Supper, but The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene talks about what Mary learned in a vision.

                    http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

                    Hope this helps.

                    Cari





                    --
                    Better than one thousand verses
                    Where no profit wings the word,
                    Is one solitary stanza
                    Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                  • justafools
                    ... That has some importance yes, but what is more important is why you think like you do. I seek my God or the true God. Not the God of another unless he
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 19, 2009
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                      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, mary wanstall <marywa900@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to understand why people believe what they do, I am still searching but that is how it should be isn`t it?
                      >  maryw
                      >
                      That has some importance yes, but what is more important is why you think like you do.

                      I seek my God or the true God. Not the God of another unless he happens to be the same God.

                      Regards
                      DL
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