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Re: Is God and HIs works perfect?

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  • justafools
    ... If it gets that boring for us and you decide to leave then announce it and invite friends to follow where you go. It is important to create your own cabal.
    Message 1 of 18 , May 12, 2009
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      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, ryell104 <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank God, for the discussion that has erupted in this group. Or perhaps I should say, "thank God in DL." Please keep it up. I was about to yawn widely and remove myelf from the group.
      >
      > Richard in North Carolina
      >
      If it gets that boring for us and you decide to leave then announce it and invite friends to follow where you go. It is important to create your own cabal. I have yet to do so because basically my role to date has been to try to get rational thinking into many places and that means moving fast and hitting hard. I mske manny enemies. I could also have made many friends but alas I have yet to set up a network.

      If you like debate I expect we will talk again.

      Are you a Gnostic free thinker?
      Do you believe in miracles?

      Regards
      DL
    • RYELL104
      No, DL, I do not believe in miracles.  And I am still trying to understand what gnosticism if all about.    As far as God is concerned, all I KNOW from my
      Message 2 of 18 , May 13, 2009
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        No, DL, I do not believe in miracles.  And I am still trying to understand what gnosticism if all about. 
         
        As far as God is concerned, all I KNOW from my life's experience of 71 years is that, as long as I have been loving and kind, everything that has happened in my life has been for the good.  And I am grateful and tell that to "something or someone" each day, often several times a day.
         
        And I figure that we human beings are all in this together and need each other and can do without our quarreling and fighting, especially over things religious.
         
        Love and blessings,
        Richard in North Carolina

      • David Carter
        Richard, I think it is healthy to have the attitude that everything happens for the good.  However, the idea is probably not true. A lot of bad things
        Message 3 of 18 , May 13, 2009
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          Richard, I think it is healthy to have the attitude that everything happens for the good.  However, the idea is probably not true. A lot of bad things happen to good and bad people.  I really can't believe that there is a God that watches everything we do and punishes us for doing bad things.  I think we all need some kind of religion that encourages us to behave well and treat our fellow man well.  Howevr, I don't think I will ever figure out how or why Jesus died for our sins.  Thanks for your insight....dc

          --- On Wed, 5/13/09, RYELL104 <ryell104@...> wrote:

          From: RYELL104 <ryell104@...>
          Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Is God and HIs works perfect?
          To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 2:32 PM

          No, DL, I do not believe in miracles.  And I am still trying to understand what gnosticism if all about. 
           
          As far as God is concerned, all I KNOW from my life's experience of 71 years is that, as long as I have been loving and kind, everything that has happened in my life has been for the good.  And I am grateful and tell that to "something or someone" each day, often several times a day.
           
          And I figure that we human beings are all in this together and need each other and can do without our quarreling and fighting, especially over things religious.
           
          Love and blessings,
          Richard in North Carolina


        • justafools
          ... You reap what you sow for sure. Keep it up. Regards DL
          Message 4 of 18 , May 14, 2009
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            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, RYELL104 <ryell104@...> wrote:
            >
            > No, DL, I do not believe in miracles.  And I am still trying to understand what gnosticism if all about. 
            >  
            > As far as God is concerned, all I KNOW from my life's experience of 71 years is that, as long as I have been loving and kind, everything that has happened in my life has been for the good.  And I am grateful and tell that to "something or someone" each day, often several times a day.
            >  
            > And I figure that we human beings are all in this together and need each other and can do without our quarreling and fighting, especially over things religious.
            >  
            > Love and blessings,
            > Richard in North Carolina
            >
            You reap what you sow for sure.
            Keep it up.

            Regards
            DL
          • justafools
            ... You will not know why Jesus died for our sins because he did not. It would have been placing man in an immoral position. God rejected the vicarious
            Message 5 of 18 , May 14, 2009
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, David Carter <cartercanes@...> wrote:
              >
              > Richard, I think it is healthy to have the attitude that everything happens for the good.  However, the idea is probably not true. A lot of bad things happen to good and bad people.  I really can't believe that there is a God that watches everything we do and punishes us for doing bad things.  I think we all need some kind of religion that encourages us to behave well and treat our fellow man well.  Howevr, I don't think I will ever figure out how or why Jesus died for our sins.  Thanks for your insight....dc
              >
              > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, RYELL104 <ryell104@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: RYELL104 <ryell104@...>
              > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Is God and HIs works perfect?
              > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 2:32 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > No, DL, I do not believe in miracles.  And I am still trying to understand what gnosticism if all about. 
              >  
              > As far as God is concerned, all I KNOW from my life's experience of 71 years is that, as long as I have been loving and kind, everything that has happened in my life has been for the good.  And I am grateful and tell that to "something or someone" each day, often several times a day.
              >  
              > And I figure that we human beings are all in this together and need each other and can do without our quarreling and fighting, especially over things religious.
              >  
              > Love and blessings,
              > Richard in North Carolina
              >
              You will not know why Jesus died for our sins because he did not.
              It would have been placing man in an immoral position.
              God rejected the vicarious redemption --Lord, why have you forsaken me--.

              This rejection of the idea that it is good to hide behind as scapegoat, is a clear indication that man is to be responsible for his own actions.

              It is good advice.

              Would you encourage your own children, to think it a good idea to use a scapegoat, if for instance, something at school happened to them where they did not step up and instead, let another child suffer?

              Regards
              DL
            • RYELL104
              Yes, DC, I certainly agree that bad things happen to both good and bad people.  Of course what constitutes good and bad things as well as good and
              Message 6 of 18 , May 14, 2009
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                Yes, DC, I certainly agree that "bad" things happen to both "good" and "bad" people.  Of course what constitutes "good" and "bad" things as well as "good" and "bad" people is another whole conversation. 
                 
                Basic to most of the world's religions is the belief that God or Good is Love.  To the specific issue of all things happening for the good for those who love, my belief is that the Creative Force or God is in everything and everybody.  Therefore the universe is, by its very nature, a "good" place, ever evolving, ever flowing, ever changing.  As living inhabitants of that universe, our welfare is best served if we choose to "go with that flow."  
                 
                So be it.
                 
                Richard in NC

              • lady_caritas
                ... For purposes of our forum, does Gnostic scripture talk about Jesus dying for our sins ? Anyone? Cari
                Message 7 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "justafools" <justafools@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, David Carter <cartercanes@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Richard, I think it is healthy to have the attitude that everything happens for the good.  However, the idea is probably not true. A lot of bad things happen to good and bad people.  I really can't believe that there is a God that watches everything we do and punishes us for doing bad things.  I think we all need some kind of religion that encourages us to behave well and treat our fellow man well.  Howevr, I don't think I will ever figure out how or why Jesus died for our sins.  Thanks for your insight....dc
                  > >
                  > > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, RYELL104 <ryell104@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: RYELL104 <ryell104@>
                  > > Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Is God and HIs works perfect?
                  > > To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 2:32 PM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > No, DL, I do not believe in miracles.  And I am still trying to understand what gnosticism if all about. 
                  > >  
                  > > As far as God is concerned, all I KNOW from my life's experience of 71 years is that, as long as I have been loving and kind, everything that has happened in my life has been for the good.  And I am grateful and tell that to "something or someone" each day, often several times a day.
                  > >  
                  > > And I figure that we human beings are all in this together and need each other and can do without our quarreling and fighting, especially over things religious.
                  > >  
                  > > Love and blessings,
                  > > Richard in North Carolina
                  > >
                  > You will not know why Jesus died for our sins because he did not.
                  > It would have been placing man in an immoral position.
                  > God rejected the vicarious redemption --Lord, why have you forsaken me--.
                  >
                  > This rejection of the idea that it is good to hide behind as scapegoat, is a clear indication that man is to be responsible for his own actions.
                  >
                  > It is good advice.
                  >
                  > Would you encourage your own children, to think it a good idea to use a scapegoat, if for instance, something at school happened to them where they did not step up and instead, let another child suffer?
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > DL
                  >


                  For purposes of our forum, does Gnostic scripture talk about Jesus dying "for our sins"? Anyone?

                  Cari
                • Ken
                  ... Hi Cari, I can t recall anything like that. Ken
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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                    --- On Fri, 5/15/09, lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    >
                    > For purposes of our forum, does Gnostic scripture talk
                    > about Jesus dying "for our sins"? Anyone?
                    >
                    > Cari

                    Hi Cari,
                    I can't recall anything like that.

                    Ken
                  • Ben
                    ... dont think so, just the opposite.... Gnostics, much like the unitarian universalists, tend to focus on jesus life...not his death afterall LIFE seems to
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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                      > >
                      > > Would you encourage your own children, to think it a good idea to use a scapegoat, if for instance, something at school happened to them where they did not step up and instead, let another child suffer?
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > > DL
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > For purposes of our forum, does Gnostic scripture talk about Jesus dying "for our sins"? Anyone?
                      >
                      > Cari
                      >

                      dont think so, just the opposite....
                      Gnostics, much like the unitarian universalists, tend to focus on jesus' life...not his death

                      afterall LIFE seems to be rather univerally important amongst Gnostic groups.... not death
                    • mary wanstall
                      I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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                        I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to understand why people believe what they do, I am still searching but that is how it should be isn`t it?
                         maryw

                      • lady_caritas
                        ... Thanks, Ken and Ben, for your responses. Yes, even the highly Christianized Valentinians seemed to interpret death and resurrection in a unique way. They
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Ben" <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > > >
                          > > > Would you encourage your own children, to think it a good idea to use a scapegoat, if for instance, something at school happened to them where they did not step up and instead, let another child suffer?
                          > > >
                          > > > Regards
                          > > > DL
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > For purposes of our forum, does Gnostic scripture talk about Jesus dying "for our sins"? Anyone?
                          > >
                          > > Cari
                          > >
                          >
                          > dont think so, just the opposite....
                          > Gnostics, much like the unitarian universalists, tend to focus on jesus' life...not his death
                          >
                          > afterall LIFE seems to be rather univerally important amongst Gnostic groups.... not death
                          >


                          Thanks, Ken and Ben, for your responses.

                          Yes, even the highly Christianized Valentinians seemed to interpret death and resurrection in a unique way. They stressed the importance of spiritual `resurrection' occurring in this lifetime.

                          I dug up a few quotes to share:

                          From Gospel of Philip (Bentley Layton trans.):

                          "Those who say that the lord first died and then arose are mistaken, for he first arose and then died. If one does not first get resurrection, one will not die. As god lives! That person would . . ." (Too bad we're missing what comes next.)

                          "People who say they will first die and then arise are mistaken. If they do not first receive resurrection while they are alive, once they have died they will receive nothing. Just so it is said of baptism. `Great is baptism!" For if one receives it, one will live."

                          Treatise on Resurrection also carries this theme:

                          "Therefore do not concentrate on particulars, O Rheginus, nor live according to (the dictates of) this flesh; do not, for the sake of unity. Rather, leave the state of dispersion and bondage, and then you already have resurrection. For if the dying part (flesh) 'knows itself,' and knows that since it is moribund it is rushing toward this outcome (death) even if it has lived many years in the present life, why do you (the intellect) not examine your own self and see that you have arisen? And you are rushing toward this outcome (that is, separation from the body) since you possess resurrection."


                          Cari
                        • lady_caritas
                          ... Mary, it s interesting you say you are still searching. I agree that it s a process. I must be in a quoting mood tonight. In Zostrianos we read about
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 15, 2009
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                            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, mary wanstall <marywa900@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to understand why people believe what they do, I am still searching but that is how it should be isn`t it?
                            >  maryw
                            >


                            Mary, it's interesting you say you are still searching. I agree that it's a process.

                            I must be in a quoting mood tonight. In "Zostrianos" we read about different kinds of persons. Near the end of the list ~

                            "And the (kind of) person that gets saved is the one who seeks to understand, and so to discover, the self and the intellect. Oh how much power that person has!"

                            Feeling powerful, Mary? :-)

                            And then finally the "person that has been saved"..... "has withdrawn into god."

                            After listening to this, Zostrianos lifts up praise unto

                            "the living and unengendered [god] who resides in truth;
                            the unengendered [concealed] (aeon);
                            the perfect, masculine, invisible, first-manifest intellect;
                            the invisible thrice-male child; and
                            [the divine self-originate (aeon)]."


                            At least this is one scenario from ancient times.

                            Any thoughts?

                            Cari
                          • David Carter
                            Probably, we all have heard of the theory that Mary Magdelene was the desciple that Jesus loved .  There is some belief that Jesus told Mary (during the last
                            Message 13 of 18 , May 16, 2009
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                              Probably, we all have heard of the theory that Mary Magdelene was the desciple that "Jesus loved".  There is some belief that Jesus told Mary (during the last supper) that "enlightenment" comes from within.  Peter got angry because he felt that Jesus had told a women something that he had not told the other desciples.  Does anyone know more of this scenario?  dc 

                              --- On Sat, 5/16/09, lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                              From: lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: [Gnosticism2] Re: Is God and HIs works perfect?
                              To: gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 12:13 AM

                              --- In gnosticism2@ yahoogroups. com, mary wanstall <marywa900@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to understand why people believe what they do, I am still searching but that is how it should be isn`t it?
                              >  maryw
                              >

                              Mary, it's interesting you say you are still searching. I agree that it's a process.

                              I must be in a quoting mood tonight. In "Zostrianos" we read about different kinds of persons. Near the end of the list ~

                              "And the (kind of) person that gets saved is the one who seeks to understand, and so to discover, the self and the intellect. Oh how much power that person has!"

                              Feeling powerful, Mary? :-)

                              And then finally the "person that has been saved"..... "has withdrawn into god."

                              After listening to this, Zostrianos lifts up praise unto

                              "the living and unengendered [god] who resides in truth;
                              the unengendered [concealed] (aeon);
                              the perfect, masculine, invisible, first-manifest intellect;
                              the invisible thrice-male child; and
                              [the divine self-originate (aeon)]."

                              At least this is one scenario from ancient times.

                              Any thoughts?

                              Cari


                            • lady_caritas
                              ... DC, I don t know about the Last Supper, but The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene talks about what Mary learned in a vision.
                              Message 14 of 18 , May 17, 2009
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                                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, David Carter <cartercanes@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Probably, we all have heard of the theory that Mary Magdelene was the desciple that "Jesus loved".  There is some belief that Jesus told Mary (during the last supper) that "enlightenment" comes from within.  Peter got angry because he felt that Jesus had told a women something that he had not told the other desciples.  Does anyone know more of this scenario?  dc 
                                >


                                DC, I don't know about the Last Supper, but The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene talks about what Mary learned in a vision.

                                http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

                                Hope this helps.

                                Cari
                              • Br Benjamin Assisi
                                the sophia of Jesus Christ may be worth looking at also... as it begins after Jesus has died from the mandaean book of john perspective, Mary is seen as a
                                Message 15 of 18 , May 18, 2009
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                                  the sophia of Jesus Christ may be worth looking at also... as it begins after Jesus has "died"

                                  from the mandaean book of john perspective, Mary is seen as a special Jew that ran away to join the circus (Jesus)... that may also be helpful to examine

                                  On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:46 PM, lady_caritas <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, David Carter <cartercanes@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Probably, we all have heard of the theory that Mary Magdelene was the desciple that "Jesus loved".  There is some belief that Jesus told Mary (during the last supper) that "enlightenment" comes from within.  Peter got angry because he felt that Jesus had told a women something that he had not told the other desciples.  Does anyone know more of this scenario?  dc 
                                  >


                                  DC, I don't know about the Last Supper, but The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene talks about what Mary learned in a vision.

                                  http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

                                  Hope this helps.

                                  Cari





                                  --
                                  Better than one thousand verses
                                  Where no profit wings the word,
                                  Is one solitary stanza
                                  Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                                • justafools
                                  ... That has some importance yes, but what is more important is why you think like you do. I seek my God or the true God. Not the God of another unless he
                                  Message 16 of 18 , May 19, 2009
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                                    --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, mary wanstall <marywa900@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I rather thought that  gnosis does not rely on any person or prospective god being worshipped. It is self knowledge, i have spent my life trying to understand why people believe what they do, I am still searching but that is how it should be isn`t it?
                                    >  maryw
                                    >
                                    That has some importance yes, but what is more important is why you think like you do.

                                    I seek my God or the true God. Not the God of another unless he happens to be the same God.

                                    Regards
                                    DL
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