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Re: Dositheans - Dositheus

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  • pmcvflag
    George ... as well.
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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      George

      >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
      as well.<<<

      I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
      Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
      doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

      Anyway, more important to our subject....

      >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
      Sadducees.<<<

      You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
      the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
      Ben.

      The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
      Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
      out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
      very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
      of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
      obviously far more possible.

      To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
      reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
      Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
      Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
      descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
      related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
      they look to be very Gnostic.

      Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
      Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
      mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
      shed some light on the subject.

      PMCV
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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        Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
        Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

        Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
        having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
        tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
        lacking). Anyone want to help?

        PMCV

        --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
        >
        > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
        around,
        > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
        > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
        > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
        > relatives.
        >
        > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
        > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
        > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
        > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
        > philosophical sense.
        >
        > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
        >
        > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
        > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
        do
        > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
        >
        >
        > Thalprin
        >
      • thalprin
        PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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          PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
          you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
          historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
          and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
          the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
          to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
          know/assure that we're being thorough.

          Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
          illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
          tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
          think I'd enjoy to help.

          Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
          thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
          add (if anything).

          Thalprin


          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

          http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
          (Check out that 3rd category,)

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


          Some Codex:
          (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
          are really such exceptional works,)

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



          http://www.vetuslatina.org/

          http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

          http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

          http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
          > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
          >
          > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
          > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
          > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
          > lacking). Anyone want to help?
          >
          > PMCV
          >
          > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
          > >
          > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
          > around,
          > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
          > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
          family
          > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
          > > relatives.
          > >
          > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
          > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
          > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
          > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
          > > philosophical sense.
          > >
          > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
          > >
          > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
          > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
          > do
          > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
          > >
          > >
          > > Thalprin
          > >
          >
        • thalprin
          ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
            >
            > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
            project
            > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
            > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
            possible,
            > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
            > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
            links
            > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
            > know/assure that we're being thorough.
            >
            > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
            > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
            > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
            I
            > think I'd enjoy to help.
            >
            > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
            > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
            > add (if anything).
            >
            > Thalprin
            >
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
            >
            > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
            > (Check out that 3rd category,)
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
            >
            >
            > Some Codex:
            > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
            > are really such exceptional works,)
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
            >


            Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
            have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


            >
            >
            > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
            >
            > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
            >
            > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
            >
            > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
            chart.
            > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
            > >
            > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
            > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
            graphic
            > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
            is
            > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
            > >
            > > PMCV
            > >
            > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
            > > around,
            > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
            see/consider
            > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
            > family
            > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
            a/o
            > > > relatives.
            > > >
            > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
            > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
            partly
            > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
            be
            > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
            > > > philosophical sense.
            > > >
            > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
            > > >
            > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
            a
            > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
            to
            > > do
            > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
            examples.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thalprin
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • George
            Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
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              Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
              make minor comments about things that could be very important
              later.

              I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
              of a Sadducee family.

              PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
              possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
              terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

              This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
              and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
              comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
              certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
              to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
              the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
              he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
              there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

              This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
              to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
              way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

              In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
              "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
              the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
              Jewish and Arabic accounts."

              Regards,

              George
            • pmcvflag
              George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
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                George

                >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                make minor comments about things that could be very important
                later.

                <snipped for brevity>

                This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                again.

                >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                response and maybe forgot?

                PMCV
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