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Dositheans - Dositheus

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  • George
    I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 23, 2008
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      I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
      Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
      as well.

      This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
      later being a follower of John the Baptist.

      Regards,

      George
    • pmcvflag
      George ... as well.
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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        George

        >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
        as well.<<<

        I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
        Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
        doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

        Anyway, more important to our subject....

        >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
        Sadducees.<<<

        You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
        the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
        Ben.

        The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
        Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
        out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
        very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
        of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
        obviously far more possible.

        To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
        reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
        Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
        Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
        descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
        related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
        they look to be very Gnostic.

        Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
        Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
        mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
        shed some light on the subject.

        PMCV
      • pmcvflag
        Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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          Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
          Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

          Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
          having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
          tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
          lacking). Anyone want to help?

          PMCV

          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
          >
          > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
          around,
          > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
          > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
          > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
          > relatives.
          >
          > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
          > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
          > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
          > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
          > philosophical sense.
          >
          > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
          >
          > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
          > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
          do
          > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
          >
          >
          > Thalprin
          >
        • thalprin
          PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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            PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
            you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
            historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
            and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
            the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
            to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
            know/assure that we're being thorough.

            Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
            illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
            tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
            think I'd enjoy to help.

            Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
            thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
            add (if anything).

            Thalprin


            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

            http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
            (Check out that 3rd category,)

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


            Some Codex:
            (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
            are really such exceptional works,)

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



            http://www.vetuslatina.org/

            http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

            http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

            http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
            > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
            >
            > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
            > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
            > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
            > lacking). Anyone want to help?
            >
            > PMCV
            >
            > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
            > >
            > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
            > around,
            > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
            > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
            family
            > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
            > > relatives.
            > >
            > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
            > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
            > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
            > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
            > > philosophical sense.
            > >
            > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
            > >
            > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
            > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
            > do
            > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
            > >
            > >
            > > Thalprin
            > >
            >
          • thalprin
            ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
              >
              > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
              project
              > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
              > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
              possible,
              > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
              > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
              links
              > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
              > know/assure that we're being thorough.
              >
              > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
              > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
              > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
              I
              > think I'd enjoy to help.
              >
              > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
              > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
              > add (if anything).
              >
              > Thalprin
              >
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
              >
              > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
              > (Check out that 3rd category,)
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
              >
              >
              > Some Codex:
              > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
              > are really such exceptional works,)
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
              >
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
              >


              Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
              have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


              >
              >
              > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
              >
              > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
              >
              > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
              >
              > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
              chart.
              > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
              > >
              > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
              > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
              graphic
              > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
              is
              > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
              > >
              > > PMCV
              > >
              > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
              > > around,
              > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
              see/consider
              > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
              > family
              > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
              a/o
              > > > relatives.
              > > >
              > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
              > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
              partly
              > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
              be
              > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
              > > > philosophical sense.
              > > >
              > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
              > > >
              > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
              a
              > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
              to
              > > do
              > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
              examples.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Thalprin
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • George
              Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
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                Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                make minor comments about things that could be very important
                later.

                I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                of a Sadducee family.

                PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                Regards,

                George
              • pmcvflag
                George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
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                  George

                  >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                  make minor comments about things that could be very important
                  later.

                  <snipped for brevity>

                  This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                  to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                  way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                  Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                  Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                  we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                  again.

                  >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                  "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                  the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                  Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                  I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                  relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                  response and maybe forgot?

                  PMCV
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