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Re: [Gnosticism2] Re: A fresh start

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  • Br Benjamin Assisi
    hi George, so are you saying, the mechanics of the spiritual practises of these groups are more important than the history in defining them? isnt that heresy
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
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      hi George, so are you saying, the mechanics of the spiritual practises of these groups are more important than the history in defining them?

      isnt that heresy in this group? lol

      maybe I misunderstand

      On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 10:11 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
      Br. Assisi:

      What are my views?  Well, that is a wide open question, yes?

      I would say that my principle view is that the various ancient
      Christian and/or Jewish groups that we group together as gnostics
      are a SUB-set of all Gnostic schools.

      While elements such as "Aeons" are shared amongst these ancient
      groups, they are not the defining element for gnosticism.

      For me, the defining element is that by coming to know the
      great source of all life and mind, one no longer needs
      the shell of mortal body - - whether this is discovered while still
      in a mortal body, or as some sort of spirit after leaving
      the body.

      Regards,

      George

      --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Br Benjamin Assisi"
      <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
      >
      > what are your views?
      >
      > On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 5:35 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Time has passed, passions have cooled, so I thought I might
      > > join in discussion once again.
      > >
      > > Are there any questions about my views that members feel I need
      > > to address before I start introducing a new topic here or there?
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > >
      > >
      > > George
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Better than one thousand verses
      > Where no profit wings the word,
      > Is one solitary stanza
      > Bringing peace of mind when heard.
      >



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      --
      Better than one thousand verses
      Where no profit wings the word,
      Is one solitary stanza
      Bringing peace of mind when heard.
    • Br Benjamin Assisi
      how on earth do you see the golden dawn related to the focus of this group? ... -- Better than one thousand verses Where no profit wings the word, Is one
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
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        how on earth do you see the golden dawn related to the focus of this group?

        On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 6:25 PM, pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        George

        >>>What are my views? Well, that is a wide open question, yes?<<<

        Not so wide, since the focus of this forum is quite specific. In
        that context the real question would have to be.... what are your
        views as they pertain to the focus of this forum? ;)

        >>>I would say that my principle view is that the various ancient
        Christian and/or Jewish groups that we group together as gnostics
        are a SUB-set of all Gnostic schools.<<<

        For the sake of this forum we use the disambiguation more generally
        accepted in the academic community. This is simply to refine a
        shared lingo for the sake of conversation. I believe we are all
        aware of the old maxim that a good teacher knows how to speak in the
        language of the community being spoken to, so I am sure you are
        making every attempt to genuinely learn our vocabulary. In this
        forum, the capitol "G" Gnosticism refers specifically to the
        category of traditional groups defined in the field of Nag Hammadi
        studies. I state this because I was unsure whether the fact that you
        switched the common noun and the proper noun in your sentence above
        was intentional or just a typo.

        As I stated previously, we can adjust terms slightly here and there
        for the sake of conversation but the base method needs to remain the
        same. After all, this is one of the last forums on the entire net
        that keeps this focus. Disregarding our focus in conversation here
        trolling as Br Joseph states in one of Ben's forums.

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AGCA_gnostics/message/3587

        Like the Mandaeans, we are an endangered group. I'm sure you would
        rather foster our focus rather than attempt to destroy our identity.

        PMCV


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        --
        Better than one thousand verses
        Where no profit wings the word,
        Is one solitary stanza
        Bringing peace of mind when heard.
      • pmcvflag
        Ben ... Do you support the focus of this forum within the context of this forum? PMCV
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
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          Ben

          >>>isnt that heresy in this group? lol<<<

          Do you support the focus of this forum within the context of this
          forum?

          PMCV
        • pmcvflag
          Ben ... this group?
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
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            Ben

            >>>how on earth do you see the golden dawn related to the focus of
            this group?<<<

            I don't.

            More specifically (and we do like to be specific here), if you were
            literally asking how the focus of this forum could be "related" to the
            Golden Dawn, then I guess one could argue that they are both esoteric
            systems. On the other hand, if you were asking whether extended
            conversation about the Golden Dawn is welcome here.... no, it isn't.
            Not unless it is done explicitely to compare/contrast it to
            traditional Gnostic ideas.

            Let me be the first to point out that my own path is also not
            technically Gnostic (in the historic sense of the word), and I don't
            talk about it here. If I, one of the mods, am not allowed to blather
            on about my own path here.... don't you think that rule applies to
            others as well?

            PMCV
          • Br Benjamin Assisi
            I think the focus of the forum is largely one sided, dry and imbalanced BUT I wouldnt be here if I didnt see any value in it ... -- Better than one thousand
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
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              I think the focus of the forum is largely one sided, dry and imbalanced

              BUT

              I wouldnt be here if I didnt see any value in it

              On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:41 PM, pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              Ben

              >>>isnt that heresy in this group? lol<<<

              Do you support the focus of this forum within the context of this
              forum?

              PMCV


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              --
              Better than one thousand verses
              Where no profit wings the word,
              Is one solitary stanza
              Bringing peace of mind when heard.
            • Br Benjamin Assisi
              yes that rule seems rather silly like going to a grocer, buying a pound of apples and refusing to eat them but its your group..if you wish it to be divorced
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
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                yes that rule seems rather silly

                like going to a grocer, buying a pound of apples and refusing to eat them

                but its your group..if you wish it to be divorced that is your choice
                On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:59 PM, pmcvflag <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                Let me be the first to point out that my own path is also not
                technically Gnostic (in the historic sense of the word), and I don't
                talk about it here. If I, one of the mods, am not allowed to blather
                on about my own path here.... don't you think that rule applies to
                others as well?

                PMCV


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                --
                Better than one thousand verses
                Where no profit wings the word,
                Is one solitary stanza
                Bringing peace of mind when heard.
              • pmcvflag
                Ben ... pound of apples and refusing to eat them but its your group..
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 21, 2008
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                  Ben

                  >>>yes that rule seems rather silly like going to a grocer, buying a
                  pound of apples and refusing to eat them but its your group..<<<

                  Just because we don't jump to the floor and eat our apples right
                  there in the produce section does not mean we don't know what an
                  apple can be. You seem to imply that a scientist who is looking at
                  the botanical nature of an apple is somehow unable to enjoy the
                  flavor. Be careful about the assumptions you make.

                  >>>if you wish it to be divorced that is your choice<<<

                  Yes, thank you, it is our choice. Not only that, even if you don't
                  understand it there could be a good reason for it. The only thing
                  you have to figure out is whether you can support it or not.

                  >>>I think the focus of the forum is largely one sided, dry and
                  imbalanced BUT I wouldnt be here if I didnt see any value in it<<<

                  Good, then foster that value rather than undermining it.

                  PMCV
                • George
                  Perhaps I had forgotten, or perhaps I never realized, that the focus on the group was on the ancient groups. Chronologically speaking, where do we draw the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 23, 2008
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                    Perhaps I had forgotten, or perhaps I never realized,
                    that the focus on the group was on the ancient groups.

                    Chronologically speaking, where do we draw the line into
                    a more modern period?

                    Regards,

                    George
                  • George
                    Brother Benjamin: Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather than an
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 23, 2008
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                      Brother Benjamin:

                      Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                      for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                      than an historical view of who, and what, and where.

                      I presume I was in error?

                      Regards,

                      George
                    • Br Benjamin Assisi
                      in this group yes, this group is very much just a study/history group... interesting I guess...but flawed, a bit like a muslim studying catholicism useful to a
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008
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                        in this group yes,

                        this group is very much just a study/history group...

                        interesting I guess...but flawed, a bit like a muslim studying catholicism

                        useful to a point.

                        Arguing at the AGCA??? We are discussing a central core, well I am trying to attempt one, Personally It think there are few "universals" in Gnosticism unknowable god, illusion, no dogma etc.  I dont find any problem in seeing that out side "Gnosticism" either... But I realize in this group and others, its mostly an exercise in separation, putting that substance in a centrifuge and seeing what you get.  So I am here to lurk mostly...

                        On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
                        Brother Benjamin:

                        Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                        for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                        than an historical view of who, and what, and where.

                        I presume I was in error?

                        Regards,

                        George



                        --
                        Better than one thousand verses
                        Where no profit wings the word,
                        Is one solitary stanza
                        Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                      • lady_caritas
                        Brother George and Brother Ben, Since the focus of this forum is the decision of its moderators, I feel inclined to briefly interject my thoughts here. You
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008
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                          Brother George and Brother Ben,

                          Since the focus of this forum is the decision of its moderators, I feel inclined to briefly interject my thoughts here.

                          You both have been members here for a while, so I find this conversation rather puzzling.  Not only do new members receive a letter specifically discussing our focus, but we also provide a statement on our homepage that you might want to review, which serves to further remind members and readers of our focus.

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gnosticism2/

                          That said, regarding your query, George:

                          Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                          for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                          than an historical view of who, and what, and where.

                          I presume I was in error?

                          And Ben's reply:

                          in this group yes,

                          Ben, I disagree.  I do not view any of these subjects George lists as mutually exclusive, as long as members remember that we discuss such matters and any modern day comparisons and interests in direct relation to the context of these historical groups of the Late Antiquities.  We offer a focus with the understanding that this provides but one important aspect and perspective within the huge subject of spirituality.

                          We have had umpteen discussions and complaints about focus in this group.  I imagine I am not the only one who is tired of these recurring conversations. 

                          Therefore, I suggest that if you are interested in a subject appropriate to our group, please feel free to start a thread and we moderators will step in to guide if the subject gets too far off base.

                          If anyone has any problems with our focus, then no one is twisting their arm to enter conversation.  It's that simple.

                          Thank you.

                          Cari


                          --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Br Benjamin Assisi" <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > in this group yes,
                          >
                          > this group is very much just a study/history group...
                          >
                          > interesting I guess...but flawed, a bit like a muslim studying catholicism
                          >
                          > useful to a point.
                          >
                          > Arguing at the AGCA??? We are discussing a central core, well I am trying to
                          > attempt one, Personally It think there are few "universals" in Gnosticism
                          > unknowable god, illusion, no dogma etc. I dont find any problem in seeing
                          > that out side "Gnosticism" either... But I realize in this group and others,
                          > its mostly an exercise in separation, putting that substance in a centrifuge
                          > and seeing what you get. So I am here to lurk mostly...
                          >
                          > On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM, George historynow2002@... wrote:
                          >
                          > > Brother Benjamin:
                          > >
                          > > Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                          > > for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                          > > than an historical view of who, and what, and where.
                          > >
                          > > I presume I was in error?
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > >
                          > > George
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Better than one thousand verses
                          > Where no profit wings the word,
                          > Is one solitary stanza
                          > Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                          >

                        • pmcvflag
                          ... appropriate to our group, please feel free to start a thread and we moderators will step in to guide if the subject gets too far off base.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008
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                            >>>Therefore, I suggest that if you are interested in a subject
                            appropriate to our group, please feel free to start a thread and we
                            moderators will step in to guide if the subject gets too far off
                            base.<<<

                            It seems that Lady Cari has pointed to the obvious next step, so I
                            will leave it at that and move from this conversation to the two that
                            do relate to our focus. Thanks for keeping us on track, Lady Cari.

                            PMCV
                          • Gerry
                            ... Only umpteen? Geez! Strange how it has seemed more like a gazillion, innit. Gerry ... Only umpteen ? Geez! Strange how it has seemed more like a
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008
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                              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, lady_caritas <no_reply@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > […]
                              >
                              > We have had umpteen discussions and complaints about focus in this
                              > group. I imagine I am not the only one who is tired of these recurring
                              > conversations.
                              >
                              >
                              > Cari
                              >

                               

                              Only umpteen?  Geez!  Strange how it has seemed more like a gazillion, innit.

                              Gerry

                            • pmcvflag
                              Hey George ... a more modern period?
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                Hey George

                                >>>Chronologically speaking, where do we draw the line into
                                a more modern period?<<<

                                If I recall the Messina definition simply states "the Late
                                Antiquities" as an attribute of the "Gnosticism" category (up to about
                                500 C.E. was the common date). However, since that time it seems most
                                scholars have dealt with the issue more on the front of specific
                                belief systems. This is probably more reasonable since if we found a
                                text by a Sethian sect still existing in the Medieval era we would
                                have to include it.

                                The more important attributes that scholars generally look at as
                                definitive include cosmology/cosmogeny, soteriology, and a specific
                                cultural origin (Hellenistic/"Biblical" syncratism).

                                PMCV
                              • Mark
                                a bit like a muslim studying catholicism No, more like a modern gnostic studying his (or her) roots in historical Gnosticism. Many things are useful to a
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 25, 2008
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                                  "a bit like a muslim studying catholicism"

                                  No, more like a modern gnostic studying his (or her) roots in
                                  historical Gnosticism. Many things are useful to a point--and the
                                  point is often knowing that point. The flaw may be in your
                                  expectations and not in the purpose of this list.

                                  Mark

                                  --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "Br Benjamin Assisi"
                                  <brbenjaminassisi@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > in this group yes,
                                  >
                                  > this group is very much just a study/history group...
                                  >
                                  > interesting I guess...but flawed, a bit like a muslim studying
                                  catholicism
                                  >
                                  > useful to a point.
                                  >
                                  > Arguing at the AGCA??? We are discussing a central core, well I am
                                  trying to
                                  > attempt one, Personally It think there are few "universals" in
                                  Gnosticism
                                  > unknowable god, illusion, no dogma etc. I dont find any problem in
                                  seeing
                                  > that out side "Gnosticism" either... But I realize in this group
                                  and others,
                                  > its mostly an exercise in separation, putting that substance in a
                                  centrifuge
                                  > and seeing what you get. So I am here to lurk mostly...
                                  >
                                  > On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM, George <historynow2002@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Brother Benjamin:
                                  > >
                                  > > Indeed, I had worked under the assumption that we were looking
                                  > > for what was the central CORE of these various groups, rather
                                  > > than an historical view of who, and what, and where.
                                  > >
                                  > > I presume I was in error?
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards,
                                  > >
                                  > > George
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Better than one thousand verses
                                  > Where no profit wings the word,
                                  > Is one solitary stanza
                                  > Bringing peace of mind when heard.
                                  >
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