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Re: Taxonomy of Gnostic, Proto-Gnostic, Semi-Gnostic, Pseodo-Gnostic etc..

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  • pmcvflag
    Hey George and Ben George states: I would be delighted if we could just tell what the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have left: the
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 20, 2008
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      Hey George and Ben

      George states: >>>I would be delighted if we could just tell what
      the predecessor is to the one existing Gnostic community we have
      left: the Mandaens. What was the immediate ancestor or cousin of the
      Mandaeans?<<<

      Ben answeres: >>>dositheans , simon, ..with some islam, yes?<<<

      Although the question of whether Mandaeans are technically "Gnostic"
      is in debate, they certainly have some attributes in common
      (especially mythological ones) and they are of interest to those who
      study classical Gnosticism. I have not personally taken a side in
      that debate, but I do see why the pros and cons are important.

      As far as Dositheus and his movement (if it existed), we have so
      little genuine evidence of who they may have been and obviously some
      of what we hear is wrong. We have mention of him being the origin of
      the Saduccees, and mention of him being a follower of John the
      Baptist. There is no way to reconcile tidbits like thisÂ….. both
      can't be true at the same time. If we don't know who they were, we
      can't seriously speculate as to how they could have influenced any
      particular group.

      Simon? I have to assume that is Simon Magus, not Simon Peter or some
      other Simon. Some scholars believe the Mandaeans actually predate
      this era, but it is hard to say (I have some doubts). However, what
      we have about Simon's movement is that it was heavily Hellenistic...
      which the Mandaeans are not. It seems an unlikely origin.

      Islam? Obviously not an "immediate ancestor" (as per George's
      question) since the Mandaeans predate Islam. A cousin to Islam?
      Hmmmm... that may depend on how we make the analogy and how far
      removed (1st cousin, 6th cousin?). To this day, Mandaean belief
      states that Islam is "unclean". The literature also talks about
      Mohammed as the son of the demon "Bizbat" and it is forbidden to
      accept food or water from Moslems. It is true, however, that there
      appears to have been a move to appeal to Islamic leaders so as to be
      accepted as "people of the book", but that need not imply
      theological influence from Islam.

      Dr Rudolph points out a number of Ugaritic/Hebrew elements, as well
      as Persian elements. Lupieri mentions these also, as well as some
      interesting connections/disagreements with Manichaeism that could
      imply similar origins or the kind of interaction and rejection that
      could help shape both movements. Take, for instance, the opposing
      view between Mani and the Mandaeans about the "living water". It is
      as if they are both dealing with an identical idea in different
      ways. So much so that it almost looks like two diverging views
      within a single cultural venue.

      PMCV
    • George
      I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family as well. This should help in harmonizing a
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 23, 2008
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        I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
        Sadducees. I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
        as well.

        This should help in harmonizing a Sadducee origin AND of
        later being a follower of John the Baptist.

        Regards,

        George
      • pmcvflag
        George ... as well.
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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          George

          >>>I think Josephus was of a Sadducee family
          as well.<<<

          I have heard some recent speculation about that possibility but
          Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative terms and
          doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number.

          Anyway, more important to our subject....

          >>>I have no trouble with Dositheus originating out of the
          Sadducees.<<<

          You don't quote me, but since your post relates to my recent post on
          the same subject I am guessing you may be answering my response to
          Ben.

          The source I was pointing to (pseudo-Tertullian) does not state that
          Dositheus originated out of the Sadducees, but that they originated
          out of him. In other words, he created the Sadducees. I find this
          very unlikely, but if it were true he would be long dead by the time
          of John. Your idea that he instead came from the Sadducees is
          obviously far more possible.

          To some extent it simply boils down to which accounts seem more
          reliable. Several heresiological sources state that he was a
          Samaritan, and the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of
          Samaritanism in both Jewish and Arabic accounts. In these
          descriptions of the Dositheans they do not appear to be in any way
          related to the Simonians the way some heresiologists relate, nor do
          they look to be very Gnostic.

          Outside of that, I'm not really aware of any evidence linking the
          Dositheans and the Mandaeans. Perhaps Ben had a specific source in
          mind when he presented the possible connection? If so, maybe he can
          shed some light on the subject.

          PMCV
        • pmcvflag
          Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart. Any other specific groups you would like to see included? Also, I have the timeline pretty
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 24, 2008
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            Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
            Any other specific groups you would like to see included?

            Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
            having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
            tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
            lacking). Anyone want to help?

            PMCV

            --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
            >
            > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
            around,
            > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
            > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the family
            > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
            > relatives.
            >
            > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
            > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
            > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
            > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
            > philosophical sense.
            >
            > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
            >
            > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
            > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
            do
            > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
            >
            >
            > Thalprin
            >
          • thalprin
            PMCV, I d like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project you re working on. I also understand the desire to be as historically accurate and as
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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              PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable project
              you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
              historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be possible,
              and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
              the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few links
              to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
              know/assure that we're being thorough.

              Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
              illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
              tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem, I
              think I'd enjoy to help.

              Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
              thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
              add (if anything).

              Thalprin


              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite

              http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
              (Check out that 3rd category,)

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches


              Some Codex:
              (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
              are really such exceptional works,)

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis



              http://www.vetuslatina.org/

              http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/

              http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2

              http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html



              --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this chart.
              > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
              >
              > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
              > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the graphic
              > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what is
              > lacking). Anyone want to help?
              >
              > PMCV
              >
              > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
              > >
              > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
              > around,
              > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to see/consider
              > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
              family
              > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins a/o
              > > relatives.
              > >
              > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
              > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by, partly
              > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might be
              > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
              > > philosophical sense.
              > >
              > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
              > >
              > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are a
              > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you to
              > do
              > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good examples.
              > >
              > >
              > > Thalprin
              > >
              >
            • thalprin
              ... project ... possible, ... links ... I ... Just a little note to add; it s amazing how some of these Codex we have we have a/o survived because of the
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 25, 2008
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                --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@...> wrote:
                >
                > PMCV, I'd like to say that I think this is quite an admirable
                project
                > you're working on. I also understand the desire to be as
                > historically accurate and as comprehensive as is or can be
                possible,
                > and yes I suspect that that's no small feat. I thought perhaps at
                > the moment we might like to peruse/review, so I'm sending a few
                links
                > to subjects/sites and orgs which might help or begin to help us to
                > know/assure that we're being thorough.
                >
                > Regarding the timeline, I think I'd like to offer my assistance to
                > illustrate the timeline in Photoshop - if you send me your list and
                > tell me what, specifically, you have in mind. It's not a problem,
                I
                > think I'd enjoy to help.
                >
                > Now I'll have a look back at the list and see what we've gathered
                > thus far, and give some thought to what I might like to suggest we
                > add (if anything).
                >
                > Thalprin
                >
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenouda_the_Archimandrite
                >
                > http://www.stshenouda.com/stshenda/shenvita.htm
                > (Check out that 3rd category,)
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopaschite_controversy
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Christianity
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Jerusalem
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox_Churches
                >
                >
                > Some Codex:
                > (I saw a Codex exhibit just awhile back - I was so impressed, these
                > are really such exceptional works,)
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Bezae
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Calixtinus
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Ephraemi_Rescriptus
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Manesse
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Codex
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossano_Gospels
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinope_Gospels
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Genesis
                >


                Just a little note to add; it's amazing how some of these Codex we
                have we have a/o survived because of the Cotton Library:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_library


                >
                >
                > http://www.vetuslatina.org/
                >
                > http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/
                >
                > http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html#conc2
                >
                > http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/index.html
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, pmcvflag <no_reply@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hey Thalprin (and anyone else), I am trying to work on this
                chart.
                > > Any other specific groups you would like to see included?
                > >
                > > Also, I have the timeline pretty well worked out but I am still
                > > having a hard time finding a program that will give me the
                graphic
                > > tools I need (or maybe my skill with the programs I have is what
                is
                > > lacking). Anyone want to help?
                > >
                > > PMCV
                > >
                > > --- In gnosticism2@yahoogroups.com, "thalprin" <thalprin@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > PMCV, I'll tell you what I've been thinking or I am kicking
                > > around,
                > > > I'm thinking that it might be interesting perhaps to
                see/consider
                > > > making two graphs; one to strickly encompass as you say the
                > family
                > > > tree, and another for something akin to depicting its cousins
                a/o
                > > > relatives.
                > > >
                > > > I think that there are perhaps several groups, communities, a/o
                > > > affiliations that are or have been greatly influenced by,
                partly
                > > > adopted by (so on) Gnosticism - for example, Hermeticism might
                be
                > > > most akin to a cousin a/o that which heh married-in in a
                > > > philosophical sense.
                > > >
                > > > Dunno, still thinking it through. Your thoughts?
                > > >
                > > > Also as you can see from those links that I've sent, there are
                a
                > > > great many ways to construct a timeline - if it interests you
                to
                > > do
                > > > so, I thought you might enjoy first seeing a few good
                examples.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Thalprin
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • George
                Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would make minor comments about things that could be very important later. I mentioned my thoughts
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
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                  Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                  make minor comments about things that could be very important
                  later.

                  I mentioned my thoughts favorable to Josephus originating out
                  of a Sadducee family.

                  PMCV's response was "I have heard some recent speculation about that
                  possibility but Josephus himself speaks of the Sadducees in negative
                  terms and doesn't seem to include himself amongst their number."

                  This is much like someone who went to parochial (Catholic) school
                  and then grew up to join a Protestant denomination. Negative
                  comments would be expected. As to "speculation", it is almost
                  certain that Josephus was Sadducee, since it is not a CHOICE
                  to become a Sadducee, and he was quite specific about trying
                  the three main Jewish "schools". In his work LIFE (books 10-12),
                  he discusses the Pharisees and the Essenes in detail. But
                  there is no comment about him being a Sadducee.

                  This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                  to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                  way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).

                  In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                  "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                  the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                  Jewish and Arabic accounts."

                  Regards,

                  George
                • pmcvflag
                  George ... make minor comments about things that could be very important later. This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn t
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 14, 2008
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                    George

                    >>>Since no one has furthered this thread, I thought I would
                    make minor comments about things that could be very important
                    later.

                    <snipped for brevity>

                    This leaves us with the simple conclusion that he didn't need
                    to: he was RAISED a Sadduccee (there really wasn't any other
                    way to become one - - other than by marriage one supposes).<<<

                    Certianly one of a number of possibilities that scholars debate.
                    Obviously neither the Sadducees nor Josephus were Gnostics, but since
                    we are dealing with that time period perhaps they will come up now and
                    again.

                    >>>In reference to Dositheus, PMCV writes:
                    "Several heresiological sources state that he was a Samaritan, and
                    the Dosithean sect is referred to as a form of Samaritanism in both
                    Jewish and Arabic accounts."<<<

                    I was a little confused by your quoting me above. It doesn't seem to
                    relate to your point above, so I am wondering if you intended to add a
                    response and maybe forgot?

                    PMCV
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